Hunters who aren’t

[dverna]

One of the guys at deer camp shot at a deer close to dark last night. Range was 200 yards and he was using 130 gr factory in a .270....I know not cast.

It was snowing so should have been good for tracking if he hit it well. No hair or blood. He searched for about 30 minutes with no luck. I went out with him this morning to help. But we had got about 4” of snow last night so that was not going to help.

After over an hour we gave up. Deer could have been a few from us but nearly impossible to see anyway with the snow cover. Heading back I asked him if he had sighted in his rifle. He said yes...but not very convincingly. Then asked if he had dropped the gun and he said he had knocked the scope on the door getting into the blind.

After I left he checked the gun. Well the gun was shooting 8” high at 100 yards. He told me he had held over at the 200 yard shot and I told him if the gun had been sighted in to hit 2 1/2” high at 100 he would not need any hold over to make a 200 yard shot. Good news is it was likely a clean miss way over the animal. Bad news, it was the biggest 10 point he had ever seen...and did not connect.

He is going to Iowa to hunt next week and he will think he will have the scope dialed in before his big hunt. Bad news....if he was telling the truth, either his scope or mounts are the problem. I am seeing him later and will try to help....but some people are hard to help.

Hunters who harvest deer at short range can be successful with mediocre loads, in mediocre rifles with mediocre marksmanship skills. Too many “hunters” read about downing deer at 300+ yards and start to believe they can make long shots without doing a good job of sighting in, plenty of trigger time, and understanding trajectory tables. Hunters who aren’t....

BTW, my buddy shot a one shot group to determine his rifle is shooting 8” high....yep...ammo is darn expensive.

[warren5421]

After shooting for 60+ years you are telling me I have to sight my gun in. Darn is that why I missed that dog at 10 feet!!!

[Kevinakaq]

If he is coming to Iowa next week to hunt a 270 is not allowed for deer…shotgun/straight walled rifle only.

From DNR site.
Legal firearms for the youth/disabled and shotgun 1 and 2 seasons include:

Pistols and revolvers (with a minimum barrel length of 4 inches)
Straight-wall and "necked-down" cartridge rifles shooting an expanding type bullet of at least .350 inches and no greater than .500 inches with at least 500 foot pounds of muzzle energy.
This includes, but is not limited to, the following common calibers: .35 Whelen, .350 Legend, .358 Winchester, .375 Winchester, .40 S&W, .44 Magnum, .444 Marlin, .45 Long Colt, .45 Raptor, .450 Bushmaster, .450 Marlin, .45-70 Govt, .460 S&W and .500 S&W

[Markopolo]

wow... thats a lot of regulation!!!!

[zarrinvz24]

“A 1 shot group”

3 is the absolute minimum. Too high a probability that something was off to adjust for just 1 shot.

[dverna]

“A 1 shot group”

3 is the absolute minimum. Too high a probability that something was off to adjust for just 1 shot.

Now why would you spoil a good group by firing more rounds? He paid $60/box and is not wasting ammo...lol.

[white eagle]

everyone know it aint a group unless it's 5 shots
for even better you need 25
spend it you can't take it with ya

[358429]

Now why would you spoil a good group by firing more rounds? He paid $60/box and is not wasting ammo...lol.We all know that if it was bore-sighted at bass pro shops that means the sights are on target!!

Put that meat on the table!!

Ok there's no reason to prove something that you know... it's on target if you do your part[emoji39][emoji1787]

My shooting buddy tried making sense of how he missed a bunch of big deer on the a trip, even worse, in front of in law family.

He was holding over...because 30-30 drops like a rock. If the rifle is bore sighted on at 50 yards he's gotta hold over about two feet at 100 yards... right?

There's no reason to shoot groups, it's been bore-sighted!

(This nonsense thinking makes me lose my mind lol)

He understands now to find out for himself and tagged a nice doe yesterday.

[megasupermagnum]

Care to share what brand scope it was? I wouldn't hunt with a scope unless I could drop the whole rifle and trust the sights were still perfect.

[BunkTheory]

You do understand that most people who claim to be hunters arent hunters.. most of them arent even shooters..

MANY people hunt simply to piss off the neighbor, or to have an excuse to get away from the wife more.

And EVERY dear that gets "missed or lost" is ALWAYS a 10 point, just like how everyone in prison is always innocent

[Lloyd Smale]

had to laugh last year. Dad is 90 and thinks hes going to die every day so he gave the grandsons his guns and borrowed one of mine. I set him up with my 308 kimber montana with a 2x7 leupold on it. He has allways tilted his guns when he shoots and adjusted his scope for it even though i tried to show him the light. Well he shot a 8 pointer at 50 yards and was aiming behind the shoulder and hit it in the neck. Killed the deer but swore he was aiming behind the shoulder. He gave me the gun back and i didnt think much of it. This summer i wanted to try some more load development with it and took it to the range. When i put it to my shoulder the crosshairs were at about a 45 degree angle. He actually loosened the screws and tilted the scope and tightened them back up and didnt even shoot it to see where it was hitting. When i asked him about it he said "ive done it before and never had a problem" Probably got away with it because most of the deer shot up here are at under 50 yards. He borrowed the gun this year again and i told him id cut his fingers off if he even touched a dial on the scope. Youd think after 80 years of shooting deer hed know better. But hes never been a shooter and hes tighter with his money then anyone i know. It pains him to waste a single shell every year sighting in his gun. He had a 308 blr i bought him when he retired 30 years ago. He bought 3 boxes of fed premium 165s for it then and gave my nephew a box and a half two years ago when he gave him the gun.

[trapper9260]

If he is coming to Iowa next week to hunt a 270 is not allowed for deer…shotgun/straight walled rifle only.

From DNR site.
Legal firearms for the youth/disabled and shotgun 1 and 2 seasons include:

Pistols and revolvers (with a minimum barrel length of 4 inches)
Straight-wall and "necked-down" cartridge rifles shooting an expanding type bullet of at least .350 inches and no greater than .500 inches with at least 500 foot pounds of muzzle energy.
This includes, but is not limited to, the following common calibers: .35 Whelen, .350 Legend, .358 Winchester, .375 Winchester, .40 S&W, .44 Magnum, .444 Marlin, .45 Long Colt, .45 Raptor, .450 Bushmaster, .450 Marlin, .45-70 Govt, .460 S&W and .500 S&W

You beat me to it , I was going to say the same . Too many think what they can use in their state they can use in other states ,they do not want to check the laws of the state they will hunt.

[ubetcha]

Well I need to hang my head in shame����. Here is my story of embarrassment. I happened to be looking out the kitchen window one morning during deer season and saw a nice sized Doe limping across my back yard. It layed down about 30 yards from the corner of the garage. I grabbed my SBH with a scope in 44mag and grabbed some loads that were handy at the time. Lee 310 gr with ? amount of IMR 4227. I MISSED AT 30YRDS.����. WTH!!!! After she got and limped away, she stopped and offered me another shot. Aiming a little lower, figuring I shot high, she dropped like a rock. My wife and I were about to leave at that moment, my son and Grandkids said they would take care of the deer. Got a phone call a little later ,my son said the deer was not were it fell and the Grandkids said they saw it trotting down the fence line. He check for blood at both sites and found nothing. Apparently someone had wounded it earlier in the leg. Looking at how and why I missed, I found that I missed high right at the first shot. Was it me or the un-sighted in load, I don't know. Why it dropped at the second shot and got up and walked away leaving no sign of being hit is a total mystery, but I at least I know I didn't wound it further and at the same time, being mad at myself for not ending its pain. After analyzing everything, 20/20 hindsite said I should have grabbed my 357 that I have shot a lot more than the 44. What is confusing me is if I had hit it with the second shot with a Lee 310 and it dropped, why no blood and no deer.

[Edward]

Thats easy ,brand new 6in snow /8 pt quartering in 83 yds with 5 doe and a 6pt . My 54 Renegade /530 RB /80 gr of OE 3F broke near shoulder stopped behind off shoulder under the hide . Across the field draggin that front leg (watched )it run in the woods and went up to where it stood (NO BLOOD) and no hair followed into the neighbors woods another 100 maybe yards and found the deer layed up against a cedar tree in a pool of blood (the only blood) on that 6 inch of new snow ! The point is if you did not follow up you don"t know what you hit ! / Ed

[ubetcha]

We did follow it. Every spot it had stopped and bedded down showed no blood. By the time we got to the last spot we saw it lay down, we could no long determine which way it went. Unfortunately we lost it. We had no snow either.

[megasupermagnum]

You beat me to it , I was going to say the same . Too many think what they can use in their state they can use in other states ,they do not want to check the laws of the state they will hunt.

In the guy's defense, who in their right mind would ever think a 270 Winchester would not be legal for deer in any state? Iowa, Illinois (big surprise), and Ohio are the only three states in the nation that don't allow 270 Winchester, except for a few special zones in a few states of course.

Iowa by far has the most convoluted and idiotic firearms regulations for deer in the nation, bar none. They allow some "Common Calibers", which is a list of the most obscure cartridges ever conceived, nobody outside of Iowa has ever heard of 90% of them.

[6pt-sika]

I love it "ammunition is expensive" !

Each year I recheck the sight in's on everything I anticipate using during deer season . I even repattern the shotguns with buckshot , slugs and punkin balls .

My point being I expend far far more rounds on sight in than I do shooting at deer . And knock on wood so far this season I've fired four times and have killed four deer none going over 50 yards after the shot .

But I've only been doing this for 50 years , go figure LOL's !

[MT Gianni]

I have been out of IMR 4064 for a couple of years and was down to 26 rounds. I loaded up some 165 gr instead of 150 in 308 then worked up a load. I shot three rounds with the old load and saw that the most accurate load was low by 2 " and 1" right. I then shot two does and a buck for the year. Practice rounds fired were three and shots on game were three. The old IMR load should last a couple more seasons at that rate.

[zarrinvz24]

I have been out of IMR 4064 for a couple of years and was down to 26 rounds. I loaded up some 165 gr instead of 150 in 308 then worked up a load. I shot three rounds with the old load and saw that the most accurate load was low by 2 " and 1" right. I then shot two does and a buck for the year. Practice rounds fired were three and shots on game were three. The old IMR load should last a couple more seasons at that rate.

Keep your eyes open, chances are you'll be able to acquire some more 4064 before you run out. I was down to my last 200 SRP. Enter Brownells last week with them in stock. While things aren't common, they aren't unavailable. Some people say that they are going to hold out and not pay these high prices. Thats fine, but with the number of imported components involved in their production, a weakening dollar, I don't believe we will ever go back to 'the good ol' days' from 2019 and earlier.

[Kevinakaq]

In the guy's defense, who in their right mind would ever think a 270 Winchester would not be legal for deer in any state? Iowa, Illinois (big surprise), and Ohio are the only three states in the nation that don't allow 270 Winchester, except for a few special zones in a few states of course.

Iowa by far has the most convoluted and idiotic firearms regulations for deer in the nation, bar none. They allow some "Common Calibers", which is a list of the most obscure cartridges ever conceived, nobody outside of Iowa has ever heard of 90% of them.

I agree…having said that a few years ago only shotgun was allowed…progress. Hope it continues and expect so.

[megasupermagnum]

I agree…having said that a few years ago only shotgun was allowed…progress. Hope it continues and expect so.

I hope so too. I always thought Iowa showed a lot more promise. Unfortunately it's been so overshadowed by other states due to the extreme old school regulations, and lack of public land. Maybe the locals like it that way though. I know the guides and ranches who capitalize on Iowa's somewhat outdated reputation as a whitetail buck state like things the way they are.

[dverna]

Care to share what brand scope it was? I wouldn't hunt with a scope unless I could drop the whole rifle and trust the sights were still perfect.

He has a Zeiss scope on it.

I had it happen with a Nikon Buckmaster. I replaced the Nikon with a Vortex Viper...no more issues.

[dverna]

If he is coming to Iowa next week to hunt a 270 is not allowed for deer…shotgun/straight walled rifle only.

From DNR site.
Legal firearms for the youth/disabled and shotgun 1 and 2 seasons include:

Pistols and revolvers (with a minimum barrel length of 4 inches)
Straight-wall and "necked-down" cartridge rifles shooting an expanding type bullet of at least .350 inches and no greater than .500 inches with at least 500 foot pounds of muzzle energy.
This includes, but is not limited to, the following common calibers: .35 Whelen, .350 Legend, .358 Winchester, .375 Winchester, .40 S&W, .44 Magnum, .444 Marlin, .45 Long Colt, .45 Raptor, .450 Bushmaster, .450 Marlin, .45-70 Govt, .460 S&W and .500 S&W

I screwed up...he is going to Kansas. Another camp member hunts Iowa and he uses a .350 Legend

[725]

Everybody can have a bad moment and muff a shot. Drives me crazy to hear about wanna-be hunters who not only don't understand the basics about shooting or their equipment, but care so little for the game they want to kill. Game animals deserve at least a good effort to do it right.

[megasupermagnum]

Everybody can have a bad moment and muff a shot. Drives me crazy to hear about wanna-be hunters who not only don't understand the basics about shooting or their equipment, but care so little for the game they want to kill. Game animals deserve at least a good effort to do it right.

I can't remember brands anymore, but a few years ago I recall seeing one or more bolt action rifles advertising as being bore sighted. They were guaranteeing you would be on target at 100 yards out of the box. I knew a guy who had bought one, and when he came back after hunting, was very unhappy with the rifle. He had wounded a deer, and was absolutely furious that it was the rifle. I come to find out he never even sighted it in. This guy had thought the guarantee meant the rifle was sighted in. He wasn't even using the ammo they were recommending. This is a grown man, been hunting his whole life, and he honestly thought he could buy a rifle, whatever ammo, and he was good to go. It was not a lack of caring, it was a lack of understanding.

Not everyone can be experts, or even good at everything. There's plenty of great hunters who are mediocre at best shooters. There's tons of great shooters who couldn't sneak up on a city Pidgeon.

I will never understand not wanting to check sights on a gun though. It's the same with people who drive around and haven't checked their oil in months. Or people who don't know where even one of their fire extinguishers are, let alone if they are still good. How many people every year on the first freeze drive as though it's an 80 degree summer day, then just throw up their hands when they slide off the road. Certain people are just oblivious.

[bisleyfan41]

Well I need to hang my head in shame����. Here is my story of embarrassment. I happened to be looking out the kitchen window one morning during deer season and saw a nice sized Doe limping across my back yard. It layed down about 30 yards from the corner of the garage. I grabbed my SBH with a scope in 44mag and grabbed some loads that were handy at the time. Lee 310 gr with ? amount of IMR 4227. I MISSED AT 30YRDS.����. WTH!!!! After she got and limped away, she stopped and offered me another shot. Aiming a little lower, figuring I shot high, she dropped like a rock. My wife and I were about to leave at that moment, my son and Grandkids said they would take care of the deer. Got a phone call a little later ,my son said the deer was not were it fell and the Grandkids said they saw it trotting down the fence line. He check for blood at both sites and found nothing. Apparently someone had wounded it earlier in the leg. Looking at how and why I missed, I found that I missed high right at the first shot. Was it me or the un-sighted in load, I don't know. Why it dropped at the second shot and got up and walked away leaving no sign of being hit is a total mystery, but I at least I know I didn't wound it further and at the same time, being mad at myself for not ending its pain. After analyzing everything, 20/20 hindsite said I should have grabbed my 357 that I have shot a lot more than the 44. What is confusing me is if I had hit it with the second shot with a Lee 310 and it dropped, why no blood and no deer.





My guess is both shots missed. The deer likely just fell at the sound of the second shot (for whatever reason), took some time to gather itself, and then trotted off. I've had pre-injured deer do the same thing. JMO

[BunkTheory]

I can't remember brands anymore, but a few years ago I recall seeing one or more bolt action rifles advertising as being bore sighted. They were guaranteeing you would be on target at 100 yards out of the box. I knew a guy who had bought one, and when he came back after hunting, was very unhappy with the rifle. He had wounded a deer, and was absolutely furious that it was the rifle. I come to find out he never even sighted it in. This guy had thought the guarantee meant the rifle was sighted in. He wasn't even using the ammo they were recommending. This is a grown man, been hunting his whole life, and he honestly thought he could buy a rifle, whatever ammo, and he was good to go. It was not a lack of caring, it was a lack of understanding.

Not everyone can be experts, or even good at everything. There's plenty of great hunters who are mediocre at best shooters. There's tons of great shooters who couldn't sneak up on a city Pidgeon.

I will never understand not wanting to check sights on a gun though. It's the same with people who drive around and haven't checked their oil in months. Or people who don't know where even one of their fire extinguishers are, let alone if they are still good. How many people every year on the first freeze drive as though it's an 80 degree summer day, then just throw up their hands when they slide off the road. Certain people are just oblivious.

Thats pretty much 90% of the world and all gun magazines.

I know so called gunsmiths that cant even tell they have installed a scope on a rifle, BACKWARDS.. my local dunhams specializes in that practice for some reason, really burns ammo up.

[pls1911]

In high school I bought the hunting rifle of a friend's mother. It's a Savage 99E in .308, wearing a 4x "International " scope from the late 50's.
That's 53 years ago.
I didn't have time to sight it in before my initial hunt with it, but with 165 grain Winchester ammo, it hit at the point of aim and brought home two does.

Funny, through the years of use by my brother and I, enduring innumerable drops, bumps, and knocks from many miles of trail, rain, desert heat and honest use and good care, we've never sighted it in... I'd never shoot it at paper for fear of wanting to tweak it....IT AIN'T BROKE.
It's always hit where it's pointed and killed what it hit with bullets weighing 150, 165, or 180 grains, and only once required a second shot.
I can't explain it, but this little unassuming, poorly varnished blond just works, and remains near the top of a lifetime hardware collection.
You know, like an old friend.

[M-Tecs]

The non-serious shooter/hunters tend to have lots of issues. Most don't understand the actual size of the kill zone nor do they understand that the aiming point on a game animal is the exit hole. They also tend not to understand proper scope mounting and adjustment. Same for sighting in and the ballistics of drop and wind drift. Couple this with limited shooting skills and getting overly excited they tend to wound with a very high percentage of their shots.

[BJK]

Ha ha, proper scope mounting...

Years ago I had a coworker who took his rifle to a gunsmith to get something done on it. Maybe related to the story, I just can't remember. Anyway he took his rifle and scope to the gunsmith and the gunsmith looked at him like he was insane. He had the scope wrapped with wire to hold it on the rifle. OK, now I remember, he couldn't get it sighted in. I wonder why? Heck he could see the target just fine. This same gent found "eggs" in the deer he killed and from then on we joked about whether or not he saw any deer up in their nests. Nice enough guy just didn't know anything about the outdoors. No I never hunted with him. I always preferred to solo hunt. I saw too much similar stuff among people who should have known better.

Case in point... A neighbor and I were going to hunt birds so we went into a cover that I knew held them. We spread out a suitable distance, and he goes charging off busting brush on the run. I just unloaded my shotgun and met him out on the road after he ran out of obstacle course. Never hunted with him again. I have no idea what he was doing on that day. He never would have heard a bird or gotten a shot if he had flushed one.

[BunkTheory]

The non-serious shooter/hunters tend to have lots of issues. Most don't understand the actual size of the kill zone nor do they understand that the aiming point on a game animal is the exit hole. They also tend not to understand proper scope mounting and adjustment. Same for sighting in and the ballistics of drop and wind drift. Couple this with limited shooting skills and getting overly excited they tend to wound with a very high percentage of their shots.

you do realize that most hunters who shoot a deer, normally do it at 10% of the stated distance.

[Winger Ed.]

you do realize that most hunters who shoot a deer, normally do it at 10% of the stated distance.

I think that works along the lines of a fish story.
The fish tends go get bigger with each telling about how it was caught.

[jonp]

If he is coming to Iowa next week to hunt a 270 is not allowed for deer…shotgun/straight walled rifle only.

From DNR site.
Legal firearms for the youth/disabled and shotgun 1 and 2 seasons include:

Pistols and revolvers (with a minimum barrel length of 4 inches)
Straight-wall and "necked-down" cartridge rifles shooting an expanding type bullet of at least .350 inches and no greater than .500 inches with at least 500 foot pounds of muzzle energy.
This includes, but is not limited to, the following common calibers: .35 Whelen, .350 Legend, .358 Winchester, .375 Winchester, .40 S&W, .44 Magnum, .444 Marlin, .45 Long Colt, .45 Raptor, .450 Bushmaster, .450 Marlin, .45-70 Govt, .460 S&W and .500 S&W

That doesn't make any sense on the calibers. I can use a 35 Whelen but not a 30-06? No 300 Win Mag but a 45LC is ok? Does Iowa seriously think that a 30-30 isn't adequate for deer? I'm not sure the point to this.

[Winger Ed.]

That doesn't make any sense on the calibers. I can use a 35 Whelen but not a 30-06? No 300 Win Mag but a 45LC is ok? Does Iowa seriously think that a 30-30 isn't adequate for deer? I'm not sure the point to this.

The starting point of .35 cal. is the point.
Some states put restrictions that seem crazy to others.

Places that have rather dense woods, are crowded with hunters, and generally short range shots tend to limit the calibers
that reach out to the extended ranges.

Some of the desert states with commonly extended ranges have minimum requirements on what you can hunt with too.

[BunkTheory]

Here is a history lesson that involves the full aspect of what is called a shotgun only hunting zone.

What the concept was is that a state says "we have to many hunters hunting in this area. Its not safe to have 100 hunters popping away at each other in a 20 acre circle while using a 30-06 or 8x57" so they required SHOTGUNS... as a means to say "we know everyone isnt going to do more then buy a box of 3$ buckshot and that means theyll have a lethal range of about 40 yards.... so now those 100 hunters have a decent chance of survival"

Then the saw the money aspect and started up cross bow seasons, airgun seasons, and now short chamber "pistol" type rifles

[M-Tecs]

Here is a history lesson that involves the full aspect of what is called a shotgun only hunting zone.

What the concept was is that a state says "we have to many hunters hunting in this area. Its not safe to have 100 hunters popping away at each other in a 20 acre circle while using a 30-06 or 8x57" so they required SHOTGUNS... as a means to say "we know everyone isnt going to do more then buy a box of 3$ buckshot and that means theyll have a lethal range of about 40 yards.... so now those 100 hunters have a decent chance of survival"

Then the saw the money aspect and started up cross bow seasons, airgun seasons, and now short chamber "pistol" type rifles

https://fishingminnesota.com/forums/topic/148232-shotgun-zone-history/#:~:text=The%20shotgun%20zone%20dates%20back%20to% 20the%20early,the%20%22rifle%22%20%28all%20legal%2 0firearms%29%20or%20shotgun%20zones.

I was always curious as to why the slug zone existed, so I e-mailed the DNR. The following was their response my question.

Regulated deer hunting in Minnesota was initially open only in a zone encompassing the "northwoods" (the only place where deer remained after settlement) and any firearm was legal. As deer began to repopulate transition and agricultural areas of the state, the open zone for deer hunting was extended south and west and a "shotgun" zone was established in the more open parts of the state along the southern and western edges of the open zone. The shotgun zone dates back to the early 1940s and eventually all of the state was opened and included in either the "rifle" (all legal firearms) or shotgun zones.

I was told by those who were around before me that the primary concern that lead to the shotgun zone was the high vulnerability of deer to rifles in the more open "farm country" of the state. They said it was not established primarily for safety reasons, although that was a common perception. The boundaries of these zones have changed over the years and were regulated by DNR commissioner's order or rule until 2006. At that time the Legislature made some changes to allow rifles in portions of northwestern Minnesota and put the zones into statute instead of rule (see Minnesota Statutes 97B.318).

That would be the same reason states like ND have a noon opener.

[megasupermagnum]

There's some history I can not fully comprehend in that is Minnesota's deer. I'm starting to think Minnesota would be unrecognizable only 100 years ago. It's really hard to get specifics, and I'm not sure there are real answers. Overall, it seems the landscape of the plains and prairies were a lot more open than they are today, and not just because of the post-dustbowl tree lines, which really isn't much of MN anyway. I have to wonder if grazing animals, particularly buffalo did not influence this. I've heard that cattails that now dominate every slightly wet spot were not always that way. If you look at old farm photos, things look quite open in a lot of them. Then others show huge oak forests, full of giant trees. Today most of Minnesota is scattered forests, no huge tracts except in the north, but definitely not open prairie until you get far west, or far south. The most amazing thing about the deer is they have swapped places. My grandpa has told me about how their farm in Alexandria practically had no deer, so they would go far up to Big Fork to hunt. Today Big Fork is rather pathetic for deer hunting, not bad, but not likely to get any trophies. Alexandria is now loaded heavy with deer, same as most of farmland MN. He can't even remember seeing turkeys as a kid, now they are all over. Even in my short lifetime that farm in Alexandria has changed dramatically. A lot of it has to do with there being cattle on it until my great grandpa could not handle it anymore, but I can see the changes beyond just the old pasture. Thorns grow like you wouldn't believe. I think trees grow better every year. When I was a kid, I definitely remember being able to sit by THE tree with my dad and brother, and pass shooting ducks that came off the slough. Today, you couldn't do it. THE tree has obviously grown, but so have hundreds of others in only 20 years. The original deer stands have mostly fallen, but where they are is so crazy thick, you couldn't hope to shoot a deer unless it was scratching on the tree you were in. Even stands I have built, and I remind you this is in areas that was not farmed, or touched by people or cattle, are so grown up, I use a brush cutter more and more every year. When I built those stands, I put them in certain spots so there were natural shooting lanes.

Sorry to steal the thread, it just fascinates me to think about how different things have become from even short times ago, when some of these very odd regulations came to be.

[BunkTheory]

https://fishingminnesota.com/forums/topic/148232-shotgun-zone-history/#:~:text=The%20shotgun%20zone%20dates%20back%20to% 20the%20early,the%20%22rifle%22%20%28all%20legal%2 0firearms%29%20or%20shotgun%20zones.

I was always curious as to why the slug zone existed, so I e-mailed the DNR. The following was their response my question.

Regulated deer hunting in Minnesota was initially open only in a zone encompassing the "northwoods" (the only place where deer remained after settlement) and any firearm was legal. As deer began to repopulate transition and agricultural areas of the state, the open zone for deer hunting was extended south and west and a "shotgun" zone was established in the more open parts of the state along the southern and western edges of the open zone. The shotgun zone dates back to the early 1940s and eventually all of the state was opened and included in either the "rifle" (all legal firearms) or shotgun zones.

I was told by those who were around before me that the primary concern that lead to the shotgun zone was the high vulnerability of deer to rifles in the more open "farm country" of the state. They said it was not established primarily for safety reasons, although that was a common perception. The boundaries of these zones have changed over the years and were regulated by DNR commissioner's order or rule until 2006. At that time the Legislature made some changes to allow rifles in portions of northwestern Minnesota and put the zones into statute instead of rule (see Minnesota Statutes 97B.318).

That would be the same reason states like ND have a noon opener.

Well in Michigan everything that has ever been put forth into print has always been the safety angle. They havent a worry about over hunting here in michigan. In michigan the idea is actually about exterminating the deer herd for the last 7 years.

[M-Tecs]

Well in Michigan everything that has ever been put forth into print has always been the safety angle. They havent a worry about over hunting here in michigan. In michigan the idea is actually about exterminating the deer herd for the last 7 years.

Historically that is not correct https://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-350--28543--,00.html

PROTECTION

An early approach to deer regulation was complete closure of specific counties to deer hunting for a period of three to ten years. This extreme method of increasing deer numbers was common in the late 1890s until the early 1920s, at which time deer hunting was illegal in almost 1/3 of Michigan counties. One can imagine the legislative debates about closing of a county to deer hunting for several years.

There was also a reduction in the number of days that hunters could take deer. Season dates were changed several times until 1925, when November 15 through 30 was determined to be the best time for hunting deer. It is interesting to note that except for failed experiments with Saturday openers and split seasons between 1962 and 1967, the firearm season of November 15 through 30 has remained the same for more than half a century.

Although there were few deer hunters at the turn of the century (from 14,499 licenses sold in 1895 to 21,239 in 1915 ), many of these hunters were very efficient at taking deer. The deer harvest during these years averaged about 12,000. Thus, there was interest in reducing the bag limit of successful hunters as a method to manage deer. The Legislature reduced the bag limit from five deer in 1895 to three in 1901, two in 1905, and to one deer in 1915. But then, there was a serious debate over the Department recommendation that hunters should be allowed to take only one buck. Game Commissioner William R. Oates argued that a "buck law" was needed because the deer herd was not increasing even with the elimination of market hunting The Commissioner estimated that there were only 45,000 deer in Michigan in 1914. Rather than provide for complete county closures to deer hunting for up to ten years, it was recommended that regulations be changed so that only antlered deer could be taken by hunters.

Mr. George Shiras III, a wildlife expert of the times, wrote an article supporting the "buck law" which appeared in the Marquette Mining Journal. Regardless of the opinions of Commissioner Oates or Deer Biologist Shiras, the Legislature did not, at first, accept the recommendation for a "buck law." The decade-long debate continued until the "buck law" became effective in 1921. As we shall see, the Department sold the "buck law" so well that it would result in the destruction of deer range and create serious deer population and public education problems for many years to come.



ADVENT OF SCIENTIFIC DEER MANAGEMENT

Hunters in Michigan had also lobbied for discretionary authority to be provided to the Public Domain Commission (precursor to the DNR) by the Legislature. The lack of a timely response to the serious drop in ruffed grouse in the Upper Peninsula was used as a case study to show the need for discretionary authority. The Michigan Legislature did even more than provide discretionary authority. Act 17, P.A. 1921, created a State Department of Conservation to include the former Michigan State Parks Commission, Board of Geological Survey, State Board of Fish Commissioners, State Game, Fish, and Forest Fire Commission, and the Public Domain Commission.

In 1928, the Game Division was established within the Department of Conservation. With technical personnel in a special organization, scientific data began to form much of the basis for decision-making. Our basic knowledge of the white-tailed deer and its habitat expanded as Michigan made a major contribution to the scientific literature on deer.

Studies were begun on conducting drives to census deer. Sighting rates of bucks, does, and fawns seen per 100 hours were recorded by conservation officers while on patrol in deer territory. Studies were completed to correlate skull and antler characteristics with age of deer. Browse surveys were done in deeryards to estimate winter food and cover. Diseases and parasitism were researched to monitor herd health. Hunter surveys were started to obtain better data on the annual harvest.

Scientific game management expanded even more in 1937 with the passage of the Pittman-Robertson Act for Federal Aid in Wildlife Restoration. This act collected a federal excise tax on hunting arms and ammunition to be returned to the state for research, land acquisition, and habitat development. Full-time wildlife research biologists were hired by the Department and housed at research stations. Some of these researchers, like Mr. Louis .1. Verme and Mr. John J. Ozoga, became international experts in the nutrition, physiology, and behavior of white-tailed deer.

At the same time scientific studies were being done, the deer herd began to rebound. Some of the increase was due to habitat changes as logged-over areas produced deer browse. Shrubs and other deer foods developed in many areas that had been cleared for agriculture but abandoned. There was also an impact of the no-dog rule, the "buck law", and what was known to hunters as the "Shiras gun law" (this law prohibited the carrying of firearms in deer territory during the closed season.)

By 1930, the abundance of deer was recognized. The first discussion of deer-vehicle accidents began. Hunters complained that the "woods was full of dry does", and that maybe the "buck law,' should be changed. There was also a significant amount of winter starvation and over-browsing in cedar swamps where field investigators reported a shortage of food and cover for the growing herd. By 1936, hunters were complaining about low buck-to-doe ratios.

A crop damage committee was formed in the late 1930s to include representatives of hunting and agricultural groups. Mr. Ilo Bartlett, the state's first deer biologist, reported that there were 1.125 million deer in the state in 1937 (about 1/3 of which were in the Upper Peninsula and 2/3 in the northern Lower Peninsula- only a very few deer were present in southern Michigan). He began to talk about the "Deer Problem."

Currently their management plan looks fairly solid https://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/mi_deer_management_plan_547265_7.pdf#:~:text=The%2 0first%20regulation%20enacted%20to%20limit%20the%2 0taking,use%20of%20dogs%20and%20artificial%20light s%20became%20illegal.

[trapper9260]

In the guy's defense, who in their right mind would ever think a 270 Winchester would not be legal for deer in any state? Iowa, Illinois (big surprise), and Ohio are the only three states in the nation that don't allow 270 Winchester, except for a few special zones in a few states of course.

Iowa by far has the most convoluted and idiotic firearms regulations for deer in the nation, bar none. They allow some "Common Calibers", which is a list of the most obscure cartridges ever conceived, nobody outside of Iowa has ever heard of 90% of them.

When you go to another state to hunt , you should know the laws of the state you hunt . Not the ones you know of your own state. You are a non resident of the state you go to and there law applied not what one think should be. If some one dose not like the laws of a state do not hunt it or anything else . It is up to the person if they want to follow the laws of that state. Some state are worse then others. I know, I move out of one of the strictest states before I came to Iowa and that was the state of Mass. .

[Lloyd Smale]

about half of michigan is straight case zones. Like was said if you dont know the laws where you hunt your an idiot and if you think you have the right to break them because your right and everyone else is wrong then id get booted off here for giving my opinion of that. If you dont like the laws stay home or work to change them.

[Jedman]

Over the years of visiting gun stores across the country I have seen some hilarious rifle / scope combinations for sale. Scopes mounted with hose clamps, wire, wood shims and tape and even wood screws ! When I see these I usually don’t ask a employee , what is this ?? I am just surprised that they put some of these guns on the for sale rack as is, If I took one on trade I would strip off all of the stupid looking bubba stuff and sell the gun looking like a gun instead of a hillbilly nightmare. To me even seeing a rifle with the old tip off mounts make me cringe knowing how easy they get knocked out of kilter.
I see a lot of this kind of stuff even on gunbroker for sale, just makes me laugh. ��

Jedman

[NSB]

Back when I was shooting bigger competitions around the country, I got to know a few people directly connected to major arms companies and some who worked for the NSSF. If what they are saying is true, and I have no doubt to believe otherwise, the “average hunter” is someone who shoots fewer than two boxes of any kind of ammo a year and this group of “hunters” buys about ninety-eight percent of all ammo sold in this country. For most people out in the woods hunting, it’s a social activity at best. I’ve seen people I know and like take as few as three shots to sight in their gun…the first one too high, the second shot too low, and maybe if all the stars line up just right, the third shot goes somewhere near the center of the piece of paper they’re shooting at. It’s “good enough”. Just go to any gun club a day or two before the season and watch all the shooters getting their guns ready for opening day. It’s not a pretty sight.

[dverna]

Back when I was shooting bigger competitions around the country, I got to know a few people directly connected to major arms companies and some who worked for the NSSF. If what they are saying is true, and I have no doubt to believe otherwise, the “average hunter” is someone who shoots fewer than two boxes of any kind of ammo a year and this group of “hunters” buys about ninety-eight percent of all ammo sold in this country. For most people out in the woods hunting, it’s a social activity at best. I’ve seen people I know and like take as few as three shots to sight in their gun…the first one too high, the second shot too low, and maybe if all the stars line up just right, the third shot goes somewhere near the center of the piece of paper they’re shooting at. It’s “good enough”. Just go to any gun club a day or two before the season and watch all the shooters getting their guns ready for opening day. It’s not a pretty sight.

100% correctomundo!!!

My property neighbors the 240+ acre hunt camp I am an "honorary" member of. I have a nice range off my back porch out to 200 yards and a shooting bench set up. (Yes, it is heaven on earth for a shooter)

Every year, I tell the guys to come over to sight in their rifles and I will help them set up scopes and dial in the most effective point-blank range (everything from .450's to .300 Mags). This year only one guy asked for help. He had purchased a new scope for his rifle and needed help installing it and sighting in. NONE of the others even checked their rifles. One was the guy who was shooting 8" high at 100 yards.

We have a work bee in August to put in food plots and you would think they would take a bit of time to get the job done but it rarely happens. None are members of a gun club, so I doubt they sight in anywhere else.

[rockrat]

We have sight-in days at our club range, for out-of-state people to make sure their rifles are still sighted in. Have seen a lot of things while helping.
One guy had a custom rifle and a Swarovski scope. Shooting at 100yds, he was hitting 2" low. Said that was good enough. I asked him what he was going to shoot and how far? He was elk hunting and expected to shoot on at about 500yds. Suggested he raise point of impact to 3" above center @100yds. Nope, what he had was good enough and he cased the rifle and left.

[NSB]

Some countries in Europe (Scandinavian) actually make you take a proficiency test to get a hunting license. I wonder what would happen if we did that here? I’m not saying to get a gun, just to hunt with it. FWIW, the proficiency test isn’t all that hard. Still, I bet we’d have a lot of failures.

[todd9.3x57]

We have sight-in days at our club range, for out-of-state people to make sure their rifles are still sighted in. Have seen a lot of things while helping.
One guy had a custom rifle and a Swarovski scope. Shooting at 100yds, he was hitting 2" low. Said that was good enough. I asked him what he was going to shoot and how far? He was elk hunting and expected to shoot on at about 500yds. Suggested he raise point of impact to 3" above center @100yds. Nope, what he had was good enough and he cased the rifle and left.

talk about needing sighting in:oops:.

i was in my tree blind on the first day of deer season this year. i was using my husky m46 in 9.3x57 with a 275gr wfn gc and imr4895. i'm a meat hunter, not an antler collector. i was looking for a good sized doe to fill my freezer. as i was sitting there, it occurred to me, did i shoot my gun? looking back over 6 months, i have shot 7.65x53(3 of them), 30 remington, 500 linebaugh, 35/30, 30-40 krag.........but no 9.3x57. my gunsmith had it to change the cock on closing to cock on opening, but i never checked the sighting in.

then a good sized doe showed up at 35 yards and i let it go. i sat there for couple hours and i seen 5 more does that i could shoot, but didn't. i go home and the first thing i did was to set up gun at my 50 yard range. i find out that the gun needed sighted in. it was 4" to the right and 8" low. i dialed it in, shot another group and it was dead on at 50 yards. the next day, i went to the shop and sighted it in at 100 yards.

i did get a fork horn buck(yes, i am disabled) that dressed out at 163lbs. it was with my win m94 and williams fp sight in 35/30 with 200gr fn gc with 2400/tuft of dacron. i took him at 50ish yards behind the shoulder and he jogged about 15 yards till he died.

[JLF]

Something similar or worse happens in the country where I live. Anyone who can acquire a rifle and kill an animal is already considered a hunter. And it is approved in most hunting forums, since they say that everyone hunts as they see fit. There is nothing further from the definition of hunter than that. That is something that bothers me. Regarding the control of the rifle-scope equipment, an old hunter taught me that out of a box of 20 cartridges, 15 are for practice and 5 for hunting.

[JLF]

Some countries in Europe (Scandinavian) actually make you take a proficiency test to get a hunting license. I wonder what would happen if we did that here? I’m not saying to get a gun, just to hunt with it. FWIW, the proficiency test isn’t all that hard. Still, I bet we’d have a lot of failures.


talk about needing sighting in:oops:.

i was in my tree blind on the first day of deer season this year. i was using my husky m46 in 9.3x57 with a 275gr wfn gc and imr4895. i'm a meat hunter, not an antler collector. i was looking for a good sized doe to fill my freezer. as i was sitting there, it occurred to me, did i shoot my gun? looking back over 6 months, i have shot 7.65x53(3 of them), 30 remington, 500 linebaugh, 35/30, 30-40 krag.........but no 9.3x57. my gunsmith had it to change the cock on closing to cock on opening, but i never checked the sighting in.

then a good sized doe showed up at 35 yards and i let it go. i sat there for couple hours and i seen 5 more does that i could shoot, but didn't. i go home and the first thing i did was to set up gun at my 50 yard range. i find out that the gun needed sighted in. it was 4" to the right and 8" low. i dialed it in, shot another group and it was dead on at 50 yards. the next day, i went to the shop and sighted it in at 100 yards.

i did get a fork horn buck(yes, i am disabled) that dressed out at 163lbs. it was with my win m94 and williams fp sight in 35/30 with 200gr fn gc with 2400/tuft of dacron. i took him at 50ish yards behind the shoulder and he jogged about 15 yards till he died.

Excellent decision. Congratulations...

[todd9.3x57]

Excellent decision. Congratulations...

thank you!!!!!

[rbuck351]

So Iowa has a law where a 357mag or a 358Norma is legal but a 270 or a 30/30 isn't. What am I missing here that makes any sense?

This year I hunted with a long time friend that is usually anal about his hunting and spends days preparing for a hunt. This year he is moving and in the process doesn't have his normal hunting gear at his new home. He grabs his 30/06 that was his first rifle and hasn't been shot in years and heads to the woods. Second day in his tree stand a 4 point (western count) buck wanders into his shooting lane at about 200yds and he makes a complete miss. It was a couple of days before we could go out again so he sets up a target at 50yds and completely misses a target on an 8"x10" piece of paper. A few more rounds and he gets it centered and moves to 100yds for final sight in. About that time he remembers he had changed scopes on this rifle a few years back and forgot to rezero the gun. It was off about two feet at 50 yds. I'll be sure to remind him of this at every opportunity. It will be good for a friendly jab for quite a while.

[BunkTheory]

Some countries in Europe (Scandinavian) actually make you take a proficiency test to get a hunting license. I wonder what would happen if we did that here? I’m not saying to get a gun, just to hunt with it. FWIW, the proficiency test isn’t all that hard. Still, I bet we’d have a lot of failures.

and some of those countries require a 20,000 $ "permit" by leaseing a place to shoot on.

[NSB]

and some of those countries require a 20,000 $ "permit" by leaseing a place to shoot on.

Doesn’t have anything to do with proficiency with their gun. Either you can shoot it or you can’t. An ethical hunter should at least be able to put a bullet in the vitals with some degree of certainty. I’d like to know which countries “require” a $20,000 permit to hunt?

[trapper9260]

So Iowa has a law where a 357mag or a 358Norma is legal but a 270 or a 30/30 isn't. What am I missing here that makes any sense?

This year I hunted with a long time friend that is usually anal about his hunting and spends days preparing for a hunt. This year he is moving and in the process doesn't have his normal hunting gear at his new home. He grabs his 30/06 that was his first rifle and hasn't been shot in years and heads to the woods. Second day in his tree stand a 4 point (western count) buck wanders into his shooting lane at about 200yds and he makes a complete miss. It was a couple of days before we could go out again so he sets up a target at 50yds and completely misses a target on an 8"x10" piece of paper. A few more rounds and he gets it centered and moves to 100yds for final sight in. About that time he remembers he had changed scopes on this rifle a few years back and forgot to rezero the gun. It was off about two feet at 50 yds. I'll be sure to remind him of this at every opportunity. It will be good for a friendly jab for quite a while.

From my understanding is that with the straight wall cartridge that is most of them will not go as far as many of of the bottle neck ones. But the funny thing is some of the ones they say you can use can go as far. It is the ones that write the laws thinking.

[Edward]

Doesn’t have anything to do with proficiency with their gun. Either you can shoot it or you can’t. An ethical hunter should at least be able to put a bullet in the vitals with some degree of certainty. I’d like to know which countries “require” a $20,000 permit to hunt?

He's talking about needing a place/lease to hunt ! Ain't got the coin ,you don't hunt (HENCE) a rich mans sport not available to us red necks/Ed

[gunseller]

Rbuch351 it is a 35 Whelen not a 358 Norma. Laws are made by the unknowing for the knowing. It started with hands being required to shoot a bullet.357 or larger. It was then carried over to rifles. One change this year was to lower diameter to .350 for Winchester's screwups to be OK. The .357 was to keep 9mm out. Now there is a case leingth minimum and a foot pounds minimum that also keeps 9mm out.
Steve

[358429]

I do wonder if the legislators and bureaucrats are paid by the word count.

[ItllKeal]

I shot a 8 point with a 12 gauge at about 15 yards and then I tracked it about 500yds before loosing the blood trail. Found it a week later when I saw the buzzards flying around it. Sometimes things just happen. I got excited and ran at it as soon as I fired and never even thought about it not being dead instantly. Good luck with all your future endeavors.