Making Sparkplugs: My first 100 primers

[Castloader]

Hello all and I hope your Thanksgiving was a good one.

Like some of you, I was pinched by the primer shortage. I have plenty small rifle and large rifle primers from my last big order years ago, but I simply shot up all my small pistol primers(I have no need of large pistol). While deployed overseas last year I started researching the feasibility of remaking used primers. I quickly stumbled upon Aardvark Reloading and looked through the extensive pdf available there. I got started partly because I need primers, partly because I wanted to see if I could do it, and partly to validate the process in case it becomes necessary in the future.

Disclaimer: I will not sell them or take part in any other illegal activity, and I'm not interested in discussing illegal activity. I made these for use in practice ammunition only.

In short, the pdf describes a brief history of primers and discusses a variety of different formulations. It turns out that primer compositions are a bit tricky. What follows is some information you already know, but probably haven't thought much about. They must be sensitive enough to ignite with the strike of a firing pin, but not sensitive enough to ignite when dropped. They must be extremely reliable. Beyond those obvious requirements, a few more characteristics come into view. It would be nice if they did not chemically destroy the brass casings when fired. Also, many older compositions were very corrosive on barrels. The H-48 "Prime-All" formula is of this type, requiring barrels to be cleaned immediately after firing. Newer lead-free requirements place additional restraints on primer compositions. Also, it would be great if purchasing the necessary chemicals didn't immediately put you on a federal watch list. The pdf gives quite a few different primer formulations, I haven't counted how many, perhaps 15-20 or so, and they are broken down in categories by type such as corrosive, non-corrosive, field-expedient(based on using toy caps or match heads) and even some lead-free formulations.

To get to the point, I selected the EPH-20 recipe. It is a non-corrosive recipe that purportedly offers high reliability, relatively low cost, is non-corrosive, and seemed to be less technically challenging to make, in addition to being one of the safer methods since the formula does not become explosive until after it is packed into the primer cup, wetted and allowed to dry.

Here is the CLIFnotes version:
Materials:
Sodium hypophosphite (ebay, $14)
Lead Nitrate (Amazon, $18)
rubbing alcohol
distilled water
glass beaker set ($20 ebay)
Hotplate stirrer ($35 ebay) Not absolutely necessary, but makes the synthesis a little easier.
glass stir rods and eye dropper ($10 ebay)
ceramic mortar and pestle
syringe with hypodermic needle. I happened to have a few from years ago when my wife needed blood thinner shots. I'm not sure where you'd get this, but it made wetting the mixture in the primer cups really easy.
Leather punch (Amazon $15)
forceps for removing primer anvils
Steel punch that I made on my mini lathe for removing the primer dimple.

I also bought a 3mm aluminum plate that I drilled with 100 holes and a #16 drill so the primers would have a place to sit while I loaded them. 3mm because the height of a SPP with the anvil installed is 3mm. A Flat punch will seat the anvil correctly when the cup is at the bottom.

I won't go through the whole procedure, since you can just hop over to Aardvark Reloading and download the pdf yourself, but basically you have to synthesize Lead hypophosphite using the Lead Nitrate and Sodium hypophosphite using the beaker set and the hotplate stirrer. This part freaked me out a little, but I followed the directions and it seemed to work just fine. It took maybe an hour or so. I now had a small glass baby food jar half full of lead hypophosphite. I think I could make a couple thousand primers with this little batch, maybe 5k. If I ever ran out, I'd scale up the batch size and make enough for 50k primers and be done with it. I bought 100g of sodium hypophosphite and 500g of lead nitrate. This is enough to make I think 30,000 primers or so.

So a few days ago, I whipped up my first batch of 100 primers. I set them out to dry, and yesterday, I loaded 5 primers into casings for a test fire with no powder. To my complete surprise and delight, all 5 went bang, though one of them was not as loud. perhaps I didn't fill that one as full with the composition. After that, I loaded 95 rounds of 9mm with 3.0gr Bullseye and some 130gr PC'ed boolits. I'm taking them to the range today for a test shoot.

FAQ:
So how hard is it really to make primers?
It's a bit of work. Like reloading, getting set up takes time. The hardest parts were getting the anvils out, and grinding the pyrex glass powder with the nitrocellulose(Bullseye) The nature of nitrocellulose is that it is sticky and plasticky, and doesn't like to grind, so it took a while to get it to a fine powder. If you wanted to industrialize this, I sure a dedicated coffee grinder would speed this up. The best way to speed up removing the primer anvils is to throw a bunch of primers in a tumbler and let it run for a few hours. CCI SP's will reliably shed most of their anvils this way. If you use a lot of CCI, this will save a ton of time. Not many of the other brands shed primers as easily forcing you to pick each one out. In retrospect, the chemistry part to synthesize the lead hypophosphite was not too hard. I spent dozens of hours getting to the point where I could make the first hundred primers. Now, I can make 100 primers in about an hour plus the drying time. Most of the hour is flattening the primer dimples and grinding the glass/NC mix.

What seems to be the most dangerous part?
The lead hazards. I know we're all somewhat familiar with lead hazards, but here, we're dealing with powdered Lead Nitrate, which is very toxic and lead hypophosphite which is only slightly less toxic. There are beakers, stir rods, forceps, mortar and pestle, storage containers, and the actual primers themselves. Cleanup needs to be constant, and I'm still on the fence about how well I did it. The primer composition kinda gets everywhere. Not to mention the spent primers that need to be cleaned.


292250

[WRideout]

Fabulous work! It reminds me a great deal of my general chemistry classes in college, only without the explosives. I once asked my professor how ammonium nitrate fertilizer could be explosive. He reluctantly gave me the short version.

I think small pistol primers may be a bit fussy, but I am seriously considering making percussion caps for my new 1851 Colt Navy.

Wayne

[sparkyv]

A worthy endeavor, sir. Well done. I appreciate your writeup.

[MrWolf]

Nice write up. Waiting to hear how the range report went.

[frkelly74]

I'm watching this....

[dverna]

Sir,
That is THE BEST write up I have seen on the subject. Many folks here have done it but do not share the details as to cost, and time needed to produce.

You have confirmed that doing this is not for me, but your post will certainly be beneficial to those who are in dire need.

Thank you for laying it all out.

[Castloader]

As you can see, the dimple does not completely flatten out. I made the punch to flatten these on my mini-lathe. I turned a very shallow point on it. The punch face is nearly flat with perhaps a 5 degree chamfer or less. This flattens as much as possible, and helps keep the edge of the punch from belling inside the cup.

[Castloader]

Thank you Sir! Since I'm in this far, I'll keep going, but it is not an endeavor for those in a rush.

[TjB101]

Very educational. Thanks for the write up

[rancher1913]

there is a very active mewe group that do this and many of the members are advanced chemists and go out of their way to walk you through the stuff you need to do to be successful.

[tja6435]

I appreciate the time you took to write this up for us. I will be ordering supplies soon. I have plenty of primers, for now, but…

[Doughty]

rancher1913, I am behind the times I guess. What is a "mewe group" and where is the one you are referring to found?

[bedbugbilly]

Great post! Thanks for sharing - excellent write up!

[44Blam]

Great post! I was looking into this as well. I do want to hear how the range report.

[rancher1913]

rancher1913, I am behind the times I guess. What is a "mewe group" and where is the one you are referring to found?

just google "mewe" and go from there. it is similar to farcebook but a lot free-er and no ads. mark and marshal from ardvark reloading are ramroding it and I believe they have a link on the ardvark site. the group is called "primer reloading" but I dont remember what it was under, thinking it was hunting prefix.

[slim1836]

And then there are a few of us who strip the dots off of roll caps and essentially do the same. I have yet to fire mine with the exception of popping one to see if it went off, which it did. I have loaded some up (16) but have not been to the range yet.

Congrats on your success sir.

Slim

[MUSTANG]

Enjoyed the read. I have not found the small remaining dimple to be an issue (Large Rifle and Small Rifle primer rebuilds) other than making sure one knows and make any loaded ammo as being reloaded with rebuilt primers. After a couple of weeks, months, years - good record keeping pays off when the memory fades.

I have not yet made EPH 20; as I have focused on the "Corrosive Primer" materials for rebuilding. Truthfully; although I have been on the periphery (home made products) of Chemistry for years - I have to date avoided synthesizing Lead hypophosphite; winter will soon be upon us full force and I may give it a shot.

Keep us informed on results.

[Castloader]

Returned from the range just now.
The good news, 95 out of 95 rounds went bang! (I previously tested 5 primers with no powder or boolits). The bad news, 5 rounds require a second strike before ignition. I suspect that this is due to an error in seating the anvil into the cup. I used a punch to set the anvils, and later after they were dry, I realized that about 15 were crooked. I seated them anyway with my Hornady hand seater while pointed away from my face in case the shifting anvil caused a detonation. None of them ignited during seating, but a few were tough to seat. I suspect these are the same ones that needed some encouragement to fire.

All in all, I couldn’t be much more pleased! I had a good time with my father-in-law, and got to burn some powder. The sense of satisfaction and success puts a smile on my face.

[Castloader]

Pic of my father-in-law shooting one of these rounds in my Sig P365XL

[Forty Rod Ray]

I second the honorable dverna’s statement. I also look forward to Castloader’s next chapter. His narrative is underscored with excellent photography.

[armoredman]

That is very cool! You don't post much, but when you do the quality is gold, sir! I don't think I will be able to do this, but it's nice to know it is doable!

[P Flados]

Great OP.

The "typical" primer re-loading discussion defaults to the corrosive choices. It is super to get details on a non-corrosive attempt.

FYI, another item that has deterred me is the challenge of anvil removal for SPP. Today, I converted 50 cases from SPP to LPP (38 SP). I have less than 1k SPP and more than 6K LPP (all from pre covid days). Using converted cases may eventually enable me to journey down the primer reloading quest without having to fight the tiny anvils of SPP.

[Castloader]

Fabulous work! It reminds me a great deal of my general chemistry classes in college, only without the explosives. I once asked my professor how ammonium nitrate fertilizer could be explosive. He reluctantly gave me the short version.

I think small pistol primers may be a bit fussy, but I am seriously considering making percussion caps for my new 1851 Colt Navy.

Wayne

This would be an easy method for making percussion caps. Easier than primers since there's no anvil, correct? I don't have any percussion guns.

Also, lighting BP would be easier than smokeless, so no worries there.

The next batch, which I am already working on, will use HS-6 in order to see if the primers can reliably ignite a slower pistol powder.

[ofitg]

Castloader, thanks for the report!

I've been wondering how it worked out, ever since your 28 August post.

[Castloader]

That is very cool! You don't post much, but when you do the quality is gold, sir! I don't think I will be able to do this, but it's nice to know it is doable!

I appreciate the kind words. I try to keep my mouth shut unless I have something to say. Cheers!

[Castloader]

Great OP.

The "typical" primer re-loading discussion defaults to the corrosive choices. It is super to get details on a non-corrosive attempt.

FYI, another item that has deterred me is the challenge of anvil removal for SPP. Today, I converted 50 cases from SPP to LPP (38 SP). I have less than 1k SPP and more than 6K LPP (all from pre covid days). Using converted cases may eventually enable me to journey down the primer reloading quest without having to fight the tiny anvils of SPP.

As mentioned, I found that the CCI primers are easiest to remove. Others are varying degrees of difficulty with Federal I think being the hardest to remove. I wouldn't even try a bunch of Federal unless I was desperate.

[Four-Sixty]

Just curious, have you tried a "drop test" on any of your remade primers? In other words, seat a primer in a case then drop the case onto a hard surface a couple dozen times. Just to make sure they are not too sensitive.

[P Flados]

Percussion caps and berdan primers both save you the trouble of messing with anvils.

And as far as re-using cups, the other choice would be to make new cups. Just this year I made 7mm and 30 cal one stroke gas check makers.

I am confident an aluminum cup berdan primer for a low pressure pistol target round would work.

Now just to find brass ....

[Castloader]

Just curious, have you tried a "drop test" on any of your remade primers? In other words, seat a primer in a case then drop the case onto a hard surface a couple dozen times. Just to make sure they are not too sensitive.

No, but it's a good idea. I'll try with the next batch and see what happens. I think that with the anvil shift that I mentioned earlier and the few rounds that didn't fire, I was more worried about sensitivity than I needed to be, but I'll still give it a go.

[Castloader]

Percussion caps and berdan primers both save you the trouble of messing with anvils.

And as far as re-using cups, the other choice would be to make new cups. Just this year I made 7mm and 30 cal one stroke gas check makers.

I am confident an aluminum cup berdan primer for a low pressure pistol target round would work.

Now just to find brass ....

I'm sure it would, but I already have mountains of brass and the cartridges I load for are not generally available in berdan prime configuration. (9mm, 5.56, .260, 45-70 etc). If one were already into loading berdan, this would be a natural progression.

[Doughty]

Rancher1913,

Thanks!

[charlie b]

Thanks for the write up on all this.

This all reminds me of my father (chemistry teacher) and father-in-law (explosives R&D).

My father's greatest problem is chemistry class was preventing the students from making chemicals that reacted violently. A fellow teacher had a student asst who improperly flushed the chemicals down the sink, basically making a contact explosive in the drain pipe when it dried out overnight. The next morning the first drop of water that hit it blew the pipes out. Luckily no one was hurt.

I did a summer research project with FIL using explosive mfg techniques, ie, bonding metal plates together with explosives. ANFO (lab grade, not fertilizer) was used a lot due to it's slower burn rate. Like playing with cake frosting :)

[MUSTANG]

Thanks for the write up on all this.

This all reminds me of my father (chemistry teacher) and father-in-law (explosives R&D).

My father's greatest problem is chemistry class was preventing the students from making chemicals that reacted violently. A fellow teacher had a student asst who improperly flushed the chemicals down the sink, basically making a contact explosive in the drain pipe when it dried out overnight. The next morning the first drop of water that hit it blew the pipes out. Luckily no one was hurt.

I did a summer research project with FIL using explosive mfg techniques, ie, bonding metal plates together with explosives. ANFO (lab grade, not fertilizer) was used a lot due to it's slower burn rate. Like playing with cake frosting :)


Hmmmm. Sounds a lot like Chabam Armor:

292320

[Castloader]

On to batch 2. definitely the worst part of making these is grinding the NC (nitrocellulose or Bullseye in this case) with the pyrex powder in the mortar & pestle. I did enough for 200 primers this time, but it takes some real elbow grease.

Batch 2 seems more refined than batch 1. I made a big flat anvil setter (flat punch) out of some scrap bar stock. It was great to get all the anvils centered and leveled quickly, but I found that in spite of tapping with a hammer, the set depth of the anvils, which should be exactly 3mm, still leaves some anvils dancing around with the shock of the punch setting anvils nearby. I think this could be the fact that I have various manufacturers primer cups and anvils. Slight tolerance differences between brands could account for the slop. I used the smaller punch to re-set a bunch of the primers. Overall, these look better than the first batch, and I'm encouraged.

Other items to note: I realized that I can dry primers in my Instant Pot! I set it for 130 degrees and it stays at about 115. This should dry them out in an hour or so. They're in a baby food jar to keep the Instant Pot clean.

Also, check out the pics of the inside of the brass! This combination of my primer plus Bullseye burns clean!!! The clean WIN brass was fired with my primers plus 3.0gr Bullseye as mentioned, and the dirty brass was Atlanta Arms 115gr Match HP.

Accuracy notes, attached is a pic of the target my father-in-law shot at about 7 yards standing offhand with my P365XL. 5 round group. He said he did so good because the red dot reminded him of the bomb sight on his F-111 back in the day. That gave me a chuckle. I don't give too much credit to the primers necessarily, but it's nice to know that they aren't causing accuracy problems. Once again these are 130gr RN PC from a modified Lee mould with the lube groove removed.

Future plans:
1)I plan to use A#9 which is the finest kernel powder I have and instead of grinding it into fine even powder with the pyrex, I'll just mix it in and do a test.
2)After that, I'll try a batch with aluminum powder instead of grit+NC and see what that does. Aluminum powder supposedly acts as a grit and a booster in some compositions, and even with this composition it is mentioned as a booster to assist with lighting slow-burning rifle powders, so it must be somewhat compatible.

[Castloader]

Grey jar is the priming compound ready to be charged into cups

The leather punch tool creates the perfect little tiny paper wads which are placed on top of the packed and wetted compound before the anvil is placed. The hypo needle is great at picking these up from a wooden bench and placing these tiny wads into the cups.

The pics seem to be loaded in reverse order and some are upside down. I can't figure out why these are upside down and the rest are not. Oh well. These pics show the whole process of charging the cups. First, the primer composition is spread evenly over all the cups and scraped with a razor blade to ensure even filling. Next, the powder is tamped with the smaller punch to compress it into the bottom of the cup., then the mixture is wetted with 50/50 clean water and isopropyl alcohol. The alcohol helps the water to be absorbed into the powder instead of sitting on top, and it also helps evaporation. The water is necessary for the reaction between the two chemicals. Next, the tiny paper wad is added, then the anvil is placed and pressed into place. The primer needs to dry and then is ready to fire.

each cup holds approximately .33 grains of lead nitratohypophosphite. (33gr for 100 primers)

[P Flados]

FYI,

It is generally frowned upon to get lead containing compounds anywhere near items used for food prep.

A really good cleaning of the jar before placing in the instant pot might remove all visible traces of lead, but contamination is not always visible.

I am not fussing at you, I am just giving you something to think about.

[Castloader]

FYI,

It is generally frowned upon to get lead containing compounds anywhere near items used for food prep.

A really good cleaning of the jar before placing in the instant pot might remove all visible traces of lead, but contamination is not always visible.

I am not fussing at you, I am just giving you something to think about.

Noted, but my hands are used for food prep also(not to mention eating outright), and I trust that a good cleaning of them is safe practice. (I used nitrile gloves for the dirtiest work as well) Glass is just about the easiest thing there is to clean followed by stainless steel, the two surfaces in contact. I've already noted the lead hazards involved, and I have determined that they are not so great as to deter me from attempting this. Still, I appreciate any words of caution or warning, "in the multitude of counselors there is safety" Prov 11:14. Cheers!

[Castloader]

The Instant Pot successfully shortened the drying time to a couple hours. I set it for 3 hours and did a satisfactory test fire. This is going well!

[Three44s]

First off, thank you for bringing this to Cast Boolits members attention and in doing a very professional job describing via written posts and some very good photography!

But just a caution, I am a little nervous about you congregating your wet primers into a baby food jar for drying.

Three44s

[Castloader]

First off, thank you for bringing this to Cast Boolits members attention and in doing a very professional job describing via written posts and some very good photography!

But just a caution, I am a little nervous about you congregating your wet primers into a baby food jar for drying.

Three44s
I regrettably didn’t retain any primer sleeves to keep them in. I’m all for some ideas. I’ve decided to only make 100 in a batch so I’m not handling too many at once. The plan is to store them loaded into cases, since that seems to be an effective way of separating them. FWIW, the Instant Pot would act like a shield if something went wrong. I’d ruin my Instant Pot, but I think otherwise it would be ok. 33grains is nothing to sneeze at, but it’s nothing like a hand grenade. At any rate, let me know if you have suggestions. I’m all fordoing this more safely.

I did make enough composition for 200 in this batch, but half of it is still in the unwetted form. I’ll do another 100 soon.

[Finster101]

Might picking up a used cheap food dehydrator work well for drying the primers?

[Castloader]

I’m sure it would.

[Traffer]

I am now engaged in developing a pneumatic Berdan deprimer. (Started a thread about it https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?434969-Looking-for-info-on-the-workings-of-springers)
Hydraulic decappers or deprimers are easy to make if you have a lathe. But folks seem to shy away from them. I think it's because you get wet using them. Hence the work on a pneumatic dry version. I believe that BERDAN is the way to go...Most of the problems with reloading primers revolve around the anvils...There are several different styles and they aren't ideally interchangable. Not to mention the hassle of cleaning and replacing them.
I would also like to build a set of drawing dies to actually MAKE the primer cups. I am very limited in machine tools though. It would be a piece of cake for a real machinist.

[fredj338]

In a shtf situation I would rather scrounge odd ball calibers & break then down for components. Though I like the idea of being self sufficient, the hazards of dealing with some of the ingredients probably not worth the trip.

[P Flados]

You recently noted a concern that your methods may be mixing vendors with respect to anvil and cups.

Doing a batch of nothing but CCI might help your overall consistency.

My only small pistol CCI are magnum, but I am using quite a few in 38 Sp power level loadings. I should probably save back a bunch and store them in original trays. If this thread continues for a while, I could probably mail you a few hundred.

[Castloader]

You recently noted a concern that your methods may be mixing vendors with respect to anvil and cups.

Doing a batch of nothing but CCI might help your overall consistency.

My only small pistol CCI are magnum, but I am using quite a few in 38 Sp power level loadings. I should probably save back a bunch and store them in original trays. If this thread continues for a while, I could probably mail you a few hundred.

Yes, in retrospect, I wish I had sorted by brand. As it is, I didn't even sort by type (rifle vs pistol and large vs small). I picked out all the large format cups and treated everything else the same. I know the rifle cups are thicker, but I don't have a good way to measure the cup thickness at the head. I think rifle primers have the same wall thickness, but a thicker base (or face if you prefer). When the ammo companies form the cups, they can control the thickness of the wall vs face independently.

I would never turn down some trays or primers! I have a ton, but some sorted ones would be a blessing.

[P Flados]

I went and looked at my stockpile of fired brass.

I came to the conclusion that most of it has mixed brand primers. I did find one batch of a couple hundred 38 Sp with Fiocchi SPP. I decapped over 100 and tried to pry anvils. Took me a long time to get 70 separated. What a PITA. Possibly a different brand will do better. Might just be the tools or the operator.

I do plan to start labelling batches of ammo with primer brand and then label and keep the fired primers. I shoot at a local indoor range with my younger son on most Fridays. If I pay attention to what I am doing, it will not take that long to build up a good size stash. One downside is that my son is "building" 9mm guns and they are making a mess of the primers. I will be focusing more on collecting primers from revolver loads.

[Castloader]

CCI's are easy to ID. I'll try to get a close-up of the anvil. Plus, if you just throw them in a tumbler with no media, the anvils fall out.

[mvintx]

Great information and thanks for sharing.

I've been saving spent primers for years thinking some day I might have to make my own. What about mixing anvils and cups from different manufacturers? Over the years I've used Wolf, CCI and Winchester and they've been tossed into boxes and soda bottles. There's no way to tell them apart.

[Castloader]

Great information and thanks for sharing.

I've been saving spent primers for years thinking some day I might have to make my own. What about mixing anvils and cups from different manufacturers? Over the years I've used Wolf, CCI and Winchester and they've been tossed into boxes and soda bottles. There's no way to tell them apart.

Well, so far it doesn’t seem to matter. I have the same problem, and I have no way to sort them out. I can’t even tell the difference between rifle and pistol cups. They’re all going bang at this point.

[Markopolo]

amen...."looks fun!!!!

[mvintx]

Well, so far it doesn’t seem to matter. I have the same problem, and I have no way to sort them out. I can’t even tell the difference between rifle and pistol cups. They’re all going bang at this point.

That's what I wanted to hear. Looks like I'm picking up a new hobby and thanks for your research.

[johnnybar]

Might picking up a used cheap food dehydrator work well for drying the primers?

Air rushing over plastic racks provides potential static charge buildup and I would not count on grounding the plastic to provide a 99.9999% safety factor for potential static discharge when collecting the primers. If you choose to do so, make sure you have around 50% humidity in the room. That will help a lot and really should be done for the entire primer making process. I am the last person to be an annoying safety nut but, 30 years of laboratory directorship taught me some lessons.

[mvintx]

Air rushing over plastic racks provides potential static charge buildup and I would not count on grounding the plastic to provide a 99.9999% safety factor for potential static discharge when collecting the primers. If you choose to do so, make sure you have around 50% humidity in the room. That will help a lot and really should be done for the entire primer making process. I am the last person to be an annoying safety nut but, 30 years of laboratory directorship taught me some lessons.

I don't plan on performing this operation in the house so I'd be at the mercy of whatever humidity exists outdoors. Should I be concerned or is this something that needs to be done inside. Today it is around 30% humidity.

[Castloader]

That's what I wanted to hear. Looks like I'm picking up a new hobby and thanks for your research.

Yes, I was happy to see this as well. I'll keep posting updates as I continue to fire additional batches. One of the reasons i put a shallow bevel on the punch that I use to remove the dimple, is so the cup will be sure to be thin enough for pistol use. I'm making standard or even low pressure rounds for practice, so I'm not particularly concerned about pierced primers.

[Castloader]

Air rushing over plastic racks provides potential static charge buildup and I would not count on grounding the plastic to provide a 99.9999% safety factor for potential static discharge when collecting the primers. If you choose to do so, make sure you have around 50% humidity in the room. That will help a lot and really should be done for the entire primer making process. I am the last person to be an annoying safety nut but, 30 years of laboratory directorship taught me some lessons.

I hadn't thought of that, I honestly think the Instant Pot is going to be my go-to. I'm not overly worried about lead contamination with the primers in a separate clean glass jar, nor about a mass-detonation of 100 primers. Some may disagree with me, but that's my personal comfort level. I can control the exact drying temp which I like. Perhaps at some point, I may arrange a controlled detonation of a batch of 100, just to see what kind of damage to expect. I may also make a blast cup to direct the force upwards as another level of safety.

[Castloader]

I did a test just now dropping a live primer from about 5 feet onto concrete. I dropped the same one 20 times in a row with no detonation. I suppose I could do this 50 or 100 times, or repeat with 5 or 10 primers. I'm interested in thoughts about what constitutes a reasonable test. I'm not planning to spend an hour dropping primers. What seems reasonable?

[almar]

Percussion caps and berdan primers both save you the trouble of messing with anvils.

And as far as re-using cups, the other choice would be to make new cups. Just this year I made 7mm and 30 cal one stroke gas check makers.

I am confident an aluminum cup berdan primer for a low pressure pistol target round would work.

Now just to find brass ....

some time ago, I got into making primers a lot. One of the problems I found with certain firearms was the lack of reliability. This was partly due to the work hardening of the primer cup. I tried annealing them but that cause them to deform when pressing in the anvil, they didn't fit in the cartridge and the anvil was loose. So the other option was to make cups. I made some dies that would basically make a small gas check, this was a failure because they need to be perfectly even. Another obstacle was the dimensions required to fit the anvil and also fit the cup into the cartridge left only about 0.010 for material thickness and this was much too thin for the base. The base needs to be 0.030 and the sides need to be 0.010 or so. So that means that the cups need to be drawn and trimmed, this is another ball game entirely. Making such dies is beyond my abilities right now. So I used the die I already made to draw out spent .22 lr cases that are everywhere on my property. It worked, I trimmed the end and made a good working cup out of it. The anvil fit perfectly and it fit into the case perfectly. I loaded it in a 45 acp cartridge and shot it, it worked well, no problems. Then I shot it in a medium pressure 460 Rowland case, the pin strike dent flattened out. In the 500 magnum, a brand new cup pierced from the high pressure.

Another problem I encountered with homemade primers, and this could be due to the fact that I use the H48 mix because (perchlorate is a moisture sponge apparently), is the likely susceptibility to humidity. I would try a batch one day, they would be great, one week later 1 in 3 would fire...not good. So since then I use duco cement dissolved in acetone to seal up the mixture. This seems to work perfectly in my percussion caps. if you don't have duco cement, you can dissolve a tiny bit of smokeless powder in acetone overnight, it forms a thick goo that can be diluted.

[P Flados]

For now, the only application I would consider for making my own cups would be low pressure berdan SPP.

I would only do this if I could locate a source of berdan primed brass for 38 Sp and/or 32 S&W Long (if anyone has a clue, please speak up).

For the current situation, the ability to load medium power 38 Sp or full power 32 longs (to be fired in a 327 revolver) would make for good target shooting without burning up my stash of factory primers.

But then there is the other aspect. Complete loss of access to new primers (SHTF or US Fed Government tyranny). The raw chemicals do not sound expensive. I see a real potential to set aside enough raw materials to make a huge amount of primers (on the order of 100,000). This plus the right tools would make enough full power 38 Sp and/or hot 32 longs using berdan cases and new cups for a lot of shooting even with no new primers. My existing stash of boxer primers could also be re-charged for higher power guns (pistol and rifle) using the more tedious methods involving removing and re-installing anvils.

If I were to get into game of making / recharging berdan primers, building a 7.62x39 version of an AR might become more tempting.

[dverna]

Castloader has started an excellent thread that may become a sticky. Recharging of primers is not for everyone. But if things deteriorate, it may be a viable option for those who had not stocked up on primers. It is wise to have options if things go south. And as PF noted above, the raw materials are not expensive to have JIC (Just In Case).

I feel the same way about making black powder. I would never do it unless there was no other choice. But it is comforting to know it can be done.

[P Flados]

Castloader,

Of the supplies you purchased, did any of them require "hazmat" shipping.

If not a "group buy" of some of the chemicals with them divided up and re-shipped to other purchasers would make it possible for a group of people to each get just enough for say 200 non-corrosive primers at a discount price.

However, I looked at the Aardvark video for EPH 20, and I am not sure I want to jump into making lead hypophosphite.

[Castloader]

I did not pay any Hazmat shipping. The Sodium Hypophosphite came from Eastern Europe somewhere. Ukraine or Bulgaria or something. I’m working on the numbers for my next update to provide more info for those who are interested in laying aside the resources for a rainy day. My math was off by quite a bit in my estimation of how many primers can be made with a given amount of chemicals. I can make about 15,000 SPP with the chems I have, not 200K. I’ll update with more detail soon.

[Castloader]

No EBAY links allowed

This is what I ordered. 200g will give you about 30K SPP or somewhere around 20K LRP

[Castloader]

On the road today, so I don’t have access to my shop.

Yesterday I did a test with 90 9mm rounds using 5.4gr HS-6 powder, and five .357mag with 15gr IMR 4227 powder under a 158gr SWC. These are the slowest (pistol) powders I have. The purpose was to see if these primers can ignite the more stubborn powder.

Probably 60-75% of the 9mm were hangfires. There is an approximately 0.15 second delay where the primer pop is audible and I could hear the firing pin hit, and even a small pop, then the powder ignited and the round was fired. I’ve made a short video.

https://youtu.be/wAK_JRNUhz8

The IMR 4227 had mixed results. One hangfire like the 9mm, one complete misfire and the other 3 felt normal. The .357 misfire is the first and only complete failure to fire so far. I suspect the primer initiated, but simply failed to ignite the powder at all. Until I pull the boolit and check, I won’t know for sure.

It seems this mixture prefers fast powder. In the future, I’ll try some aluminum powder additive to see if that helps. There are some related recipes such as EPH25 and 26 that are designed to correct this problem.

On the good side, there was only one cartridge that required a second trigger pull (not including the complete failure to fire).

[P Flados]

Yesterday I went through my big stash of mixed old primers & confirmed that I could do pretty good at visually sorting to extract some that all look like the RP SPPM that I have used several thousand of already (I have more of these not yet used). I really want to start out with as much consistency for this item as possible.

I popped out some anvils and tapped the dimples out of the cups. The primer brand makes a big difference, I have a bunch of easy to identify Fiocche SPP in the mix but removing anvils from them is way too much of a pain. Most of the other primers are a mix of SPP and SRP that I can not visually tell apart.

This morning I took a hammer to a glass beverage bottle then went at some chips with a mortar and pestle. I got the glass down to a powder just a little courser than needed for the final product.

I then mixed glass powder 50/50 by weight with a very fine ball powder (from a batch of "bad" milsurp version of H110 - it had been contaminated with some grit). I took this mix and went at it with the mortar and pestle. I think this might work.

As noted by Castloader, the processing in of the NC (Nitro Cellulose - a.k.a smokeless powder) is a PITA. It is also one of those items where I was unsure of how much mortal and pestle action would be "good enough". What kind of NC and how much processing is needed (or alternately - how little can we get away with) seems to be an area worth the effort to explore.

With all of the above zero cost "homework" done, my desire has increased to move forward with EPH20.

During a recent conversation with my wife, she seemed frustrated at my "nothing much" reply as to what I wanted from Santa. So today I notified her that Santa was going to get me something along the lines of a "home chemistry set". I had to explain the primer shortage situation and the application before she was satisfied (No sweetheart, I will not be making anything real dangerous, etc. etc.)

Items ordered:

400 grams Sodium Hypophosphite off Ebay for $26.49 with free shipping
500 grams Lead Nitrate off Amazon for $20.95 with free shipping (prime)
Hot plate / magnetic mixer off Amazon for $39.58 with free shipping (prime)
12 glass stirring rods off Amazon for $4.84 with free shipping (prime)

I plan to make a few batches with no further purchases. I would like some AL powder, but the currently identified source comes in a larger quantity than I need and the cost is higher than I want to pay. This combined with the fact that 90% of our shooting is fast burning powder in handguns makes me want to hold off on this ingredient.

[P Flados]

Castloader,

Thinking more about the AL powder. The recipe calls for a very small amount of this ingredient. I am betting that I make make very fine filings with a metal file and some scrap AL. I will try this before ordering any powder.

[Castloader]

My initial plan was to scrounge some from a tannerite powder pack. I have nowhere to use the tannerite, and the packet will probably go a pretty long way. Otherwise, a coffee grinder and some aluminum foil, or perhaps ball milling with some ceramic media. I read somewhere that ball milling aluminum with lead causes contamination issues that could affect viability.

[Castloader]

P Flados, for every 200g of sodium hypophosphite, you’ll need about 500g of Lead Nitrate. This is because you use the LN twice and the SH only once. If you’re trying to have a balanced supply, you should grab another 500g of LN

[Castloader]

All, I crunched some numbers and played with a little weights and measures.

My initial estimate that I had the necessary chems for 200,000 SPP primers was off by an order of magnitude, because the Home Made Primer Course just gives recipes, it doesn't tell you anything about yield. I have edited my original post to reflect. Having made some primers, I have determined the following:

1) The recipes in the Homemade Primer Course seem to be calibrated to make enough composition for 100 Small Pistol Primers per batch. This is based on my actual experience with EPH20.
2) The recipe given in the HPC pdf(33.1g of Lead Nitrate and 21.5g of Sodium Hypophosphite) yields approximately 30 grams of Lead Hypophosphite. This weight is based upon my experience with my first batch, and could perhaps be improved upon with better technique. I lost a little when filtering and drying, and perhaps I might not have gotten a maximum reaction during synthesis. I do not know what the theoretical upper limit might be, but I suspect I did reasonably well, and you might get a few more grams, but that's it. (FYI, you later need to add more Lead Nitro to this Lead Hypo to make the actual priming compound)
3) This batch of 30 grams of Lead Hypo, according to my math, should yield 3,991 primers not accounting for waste. Theoretically, the 100 gram bag of Sodium Hypophosphite I initially purchased should be enough to make 18,563 primers.
4) I estimate Large Rifle primers to be about 50% more volume than SPP based on the dimensions.

A reasonable approach would look something like this:

Buy 200 grams of Sodium Hypo
Buy 500 grams of Lead Nitrate
Cost: around $50 at todays prices. Shop around, volume discounts on chems are a real thing.

You now have enough LN to make 31,624 SPP and enough Sodium Hypo to make 37,125 SPP. Since you'd run out of LN first, that is the limiting factor. If you factor 5% loss due to waste, you arrive at a fairly neat 30K SPP. With my volume estimation, this would also potentially make around 20K LRP. Keep these chems for a rainy day, they don't seem to be considered hazmat, at least in the size batches indicated, or play around with making your own primers.

I must say, shooting rounds with homemade primers gave me the same thrill that I had nearly forgotten, the first time I shot my own handloaded cartridge. The sense of, Holy Cow, that actually worked!!! It was fun in a way to be on the range with brass all around sadly by myself, but happily able to keep shooting during the drought.

[P Flados]

I did take a file to some scrap AL. I was able to come up with around 10 gr of fine AL powder without too much effort.

The recipe actually calls for 80 mesh AL. I believe that the AL in commercial primers is the little streaks of burning particles that you see in photos of them going off.

[P Flados]

P Flados, for every 200g of sodium hypophosphite, you’ll need about 500g of Lead Nitrate. This is because you use the LN twice and the SH only once. If you’re trying to have a balanced supply, you should grab another 500g of LN

I knew I was not balanced. I really do not get any discount for ordering extra lead nitrate from the Amazon Source. I ordered extra sodium hypophosphite to get a little lower cost per gram. Also, the source for sodium hypophosphite looked to be more risky of going away, getting more costly or getting harder to buy from.

[Castloader]

That makes good sense.

[Three44s]

Kudos to Castloader for staying on this topic for other members benefit!

Three44s

[mvintx]

Does anyone know anything about shelf life of EPH20. I thought I read something over on the MeWe forum that alluded to a short lifespan but I can't find it now.

[P Flados]

I find a lot of stuff hard to follow over at MeWe.

There was some discussion about a primer compound going bad due to picking up water. Not sure if it was one of the EPH2x compounds or not.

Since you add water to the EPH2x powder and then let air dry, going bad due to picking up water would seem strange.

[mvintx]

I'll agree the mewe forum is a bit hard to find things without having to scroll up and down. I'm still trying to figure out why I can't access any of the Rumble videos. Might have something to do with me having a Mac and running the Brave browser.

[P Flados]

Well, I got a surprise today. My Sodium Hipo showed up. Lots of reports of 40 or so days for delivery, so getting it in 16 days was great.

Bad news is that my lab glass, glass stirring rods, second thermometer and pipettes are all still on their way.

I cobbled together a makeshift lab, and tried to make a batch anyway. I had a glass jar full of solution break on the hot plate, made a bunch of silly mistakes, and recovered as required to get a some nice looking Lead Hipo.

My temperature control / regulation was lousy and I found my "dripping" skills were very poor.

I need to do a bunch of "dry runs" with water but no chemicals and see if I can make some big improvements in my technique. Waiting until I get all of my already ordered equipment delivered should also help (a lot).

I did a hammer test on the lead hipo with no bang.

I made some EPH25 with NC from a 4198 puck and AL from filings.

First, I loaded 10 primers with Unis Guinex SRP cups/anvils and with no paper discs. Then I made 20 with paper discs.

I am using slow and tedious methods of assembly (handling each primer individually at each step) for the time being.

I finished up pretty late, so I am doing ambient drying for now. I may put them in a 120 degf oven in the morning.



I have also found that I can make NC powder pretty easy from 50/50 Promo and glass powder in a Mortar and Pestle. I will probably try of batch made with Promo next. I am also waiting on delivery of a set of sifting screens so I can get accurate particle sizes on my powders.

[Hanzy4200]

The determination and ingenuity of us gun guys is epic. Now, what bothers me. If a guy in his basement can manage this, why in the name of Zeus's butthole can't a small/medium company figure this out on a larger scale!

[P Flados]

I took my 30 primers and went to seat them by placing them one at a time in my old round Lee hand priming tool with no cover installed.

Three (10%) went off while seating the primer. I was not terribly surprised as I had more than few accidental squirts when I was supposed to be dripping solution from the small beaker to the big beaker. Here is the warning from the instructions available at MeWe:


If you add two or more drops in the same place at once, this may constitute a concentration which can result in the formation of “lead nitratohypophosphite”, and may result in a premature, “impact sensitive” product, reducing the safety factor of EPH20.


I initially checked my Lead Hypophosphite (a.k.a Lead Hipo) and it did not go bang, but I saw a warning somewhere that it might not go bang yet you may still have a little lead nitratohypophosphite mixed in.

I fired some primed empties and the power level seemed consistent and as expected. All went off first try.

I then assembled more than 100 more, but this time I seated the primers in a case before letting the primers dry. None went off with this process. I dried some primed cases in my PC oven at 120 degf for a couple of hours and test fired a few primed empties. They all went off fine.

I loaded a little over 100 rounds. Mostly 38 Sp, a few 32s.

I will keep playing with my current batch of Lead Hipo (very carefully) until I get more equipment delivered so that I can can make up a better batch.

[mvintx]

If you add two or more drops in the same place at once, this may constitute a concentration which can result in the formation of “lead nitratohypophosphite”, and may result in a premature, “impact sensitive” product, reducing the safety factor of EPH20.



The only video I was able to watch showed a generous amount of water/alcohol being dribbled onto the top of the primer. What do you suppose is the recommended technique? The PDF Homemade Primer Course depicts a syringe being used to put a drop on one side of the primer.

I'd really like to connect all the dots before I start this procedure. Still awaiting my Sodium Hippo.

[P Flados]

For assembly, I am using the 1/8" bamboo skewer method.

I am also using regular medicine cabinet 70% alcohol mixed 50/50 with water. The water is what we want, the alcohol is just there as a wetting agent.

With the blunt end of the skewer just moist, you push down on a paper disc to pick it up.

Then you push the paper disc into the primer full of EPH 2x.

I then dip the blunt end of the skewer about 1/2" deep into my alcohol / water and then lift. A small drop forms on the end. This drop is then applied to the primer. I make sure there is visible water above the paper for at least 10 seconds. I wait at least another 10 seconds and then use the corner of a paper towel to wick off any excess water at this point.

I let it stand for another little while (ideally 10 - 20 seconds).

I place an anvil on top, move the primer over to the ram on my anvil seating tool in my reloading press and seat the anvil. I can adjust my anvil seating tool for a precise height, currently set for 0.125".

[mvintx]

For assembly, I am using the 1/8" bamboo skewer method.

I am also using regular medicine cabinet 70% alcohol mixed 50/50 with water. The water is what we want, the alcohol is just there as a wetting agent.

With the blunt end of the skewer just moist, you push down on a paper disc to pick it up.

Then you push the paper disc into the primer full of EPH 2x.

I then dip the blunt end of the skewer about 1/2" deep into my alcohol / water and then lift. A small drop forms on the end. This drop is then applied to the primer. I make sure there is visible water above the paper for at least 10 seconds. I wait at least another 10 seconds and then use the corner of a paper towel to wick off any excess water at this point.

I let it stand for another little while (ideally 10 - 20 seconds).

I place an anvil on top, move the primer over to the ram on my anvil seating tool in my reloading press and seat the anvil. I can adjust my anvil seating tool for a precise height, currently set for 0.125".

Thanks for your techniques. I might omit the paper disk and see how that goes. Seems like a lot of guys don't use them and it would be one less thing to do.

[P Flados]

I have recently made some changes including discontinuing use of the paper disc.

I am doing the wetting before doing the packing. I want to make sure I get all of the powder wet.

I also sanded the tip of my bamboo skewer to be a cone point such that after I pack the powder, the anvil drops into place much more centered.

After I have about 10 primers assembled, I am loading them into a Lee hand priming tool and installing them into my brass. If I let the primers dry before putting them in cases, I am getting too many going off as the primer is being seated.

I am not real happy with results on SPPs right now. Too much variation in power level with a lot of weak ones.

I also set up for LPP. Before starting on primer reloading, I had converted a batch of 38 Sp cases to LPP given I have a 5K stash of LPP and was not using them for any load I shoot on a regular basis. I think I may be getting closer to a good product for reloading the larger size primer. For this effort I am skipping the AL (i.e. using EPH 20) and for NC in my most recent batch I just used a very fine grain ball powder (H110) straight out of the jug. The bang from a primed case in a 3" LCRx 38 Sp is impressive with my LPPs.

[mvintx]

There's a fellow over on the MeWe forum who is priming his cases right after seating the anvils - the EPH20 is still moist. He said it takes a couple of days before the priming compound dries.

[P Flados]

Not getting the mix totally dry may be part of my consistency problem. I am playing around with different drying routines (time and/or baking).

[Castloader]

I took my 30 primers and went to seat them by placing them one at a time in my old round Lee hand priming tool with no cover installed.

Three (10%) went off while seating the primer. I was not terribly surprised as I had more than few accidental squirts when I was supposed to be dripping solution from the small beaker to the big beaker. Here is the warning from the instructions available at MeWe:


If you add two or more drops in the same place at once, this may constitute a concentration which can result in the formation of “lead nitratohypophosphite”, and may result in a premature, “impact sensitive” product, reducing the safety factor of EPH20.


I initially checked my Lead Hypophosphite (a.k.a Lead Hipo) and it did not go bang, but I saw a warning somewhere that it might not go bang yet you may still have a little lead nitratohypophosphite mixed in.

I fired some primed empties and the power level seemed consistent and as expected. All went off first try.

I then assembled more than 100 more, but this time I seated the primers in a case before letting the primers dry. None went off with this process. I dried some primed cases in my PC oven at 120 degf for a couple of hours and test fired a few primed empties. They all went off fine.

I loaded a little over 100 rounds. Mostly 38 Sp, a few 32s.

I will keep playing with my current batch of Lead Hipo (very carefully) until I get more equipment delivered so that I can can make up a better batch.

I haven't had any go off while seating, even if I try to be a little rough. I dry the primers before seating, so they should be fully sensitive. Not sure why yours are doing that. I've successfully fired 300 9mm or .38SPL rounds so far with these primers.

What kind of grit are you using? I accidentally broke one of my pyrex beakers, so I took the opportunity to grind it up into powder and sifted through a 100 mesh screen. If your grit is more course, that could be a factor.

[Castloader]

I have recently made some changes including discontinuing use of the paper disc.

I am doing the wetting before doing the packing. I want to make sure I get all of the powder wet.

I also sanded the tip of my bamboo skewer to be a cone point such that after I pack the powder, the anvil drops into place much more centered.

After I have about 10 primers assembled, I am loading them into a Lee hand priming tool and installing them into my brass. If I let the primers dry before putting them in cases, I am getting too many going off as the primer is being seated.

I am not real happy with results on SPPs right now. Too much variation in power level with a lot of weak ones.

I also set up for LPP. Before starting on primer reloading, I had converted a batch of 38 Sp cases to LPP given I have a 5K stash of LPP and was not using them for any load I shoot on a regular basis. I think I may be getting closer to a good product for reloading the larger size primer. For this effort I am skipping the AL (i.e. using EPH 20) and for NC in my most recent batch I just used a very fine grain ball powder (H110) straight out of the jug. The bang from a primed case in a 3" LCRx 38 Sp is impressive with my LPPs.

I think the paper disk has a purpose. for one thing, it probably helps the mixture crush better acting as a backing against which the mixture presses. For another thing, it takes up a little volume, so you'd have to add some more mixture if it wasn't there. Anyway, the big manufacturers use it, so it must be important.

Regarding wetting, I use one single drop of the 50/50 alcohol/water mix applied near the edge of the primer cup and watch the wetness flow across the pellet. It's very consistent. I use 91% isopropyl alcohol. If you're using 70% alcohol, I would add less water to get the ratio to 50%. You could make up a slurry with 3 grams of 70% isopropyl with 1.2 grams of distilled water and that would give you a 50/50 mix. Your reloading scale would be ideal for this.

[P Flados]

Castloader,

My last couple of primer only test runs did much better with good performance from both SPP and LPP.

This time around, I was more aggressive and more patient with drying. A couple of hours at 120 degf right after loading, overnight at ambient, another trip to the 120 degf oven for a little while prior to loading.

My issue with going off while installing primers may be related to how I seat the anvil. The standard primer reload guidance seems to have you seat the anvil flush with the top of the cup. I seat the anvil for an overall primer height of to 0.125" which leaves it sticking out of the cup a little bit. I noted that this is how new primers are. My method puts a little crush on the pellet when the primer is seated in the brass. It is at this point where I had my undesired ignition problems.

When I was using the paper disc I was using the blunt end of a bamboo skewer for packing the mixture. This was making it hard to get the anvil to seat properly every time.

I went to packing the mixture with a cone point on the skewer to help with anvil seating. The cone angle is about 45 ° off of centerline. The paper disc was not working out well with the cone point packing. I had noted that some the guys at MeWe were skipping the paper disc and decided to give it a try.

Other than making it harder to get the pellet good and dry, at the moment I am liking my assembly sequence. The loose powder wetting followed by cone point packing does a good job of wetting the mixture (yes, I try to put a perfect size drop off to the side and watch the wetness flow across), it is easy, and it compresses the pellet close to final shape. This pre-shaping simplifies anvil placement and seating. I also like the idea of getting a little crush on the pellet during primer installation in the brass within a couple of minutes of wetting. At this point the pellet seems pretty firm, but still gives a little bit. For EPH 2x the mixture turns into a firm solid after wetting, packing and then drying.

[Castloader]

The determination and ingenuity of us gun guys is epic. Now, what bothers me. If a guy in his basement can manage this, why in the name of Zeus's butthole can't a small/medium company figure this out on a larger scale!

I’ve been wondering this too. I expect people are paying attention to the drought(or opportunity if you will) and making plans to expand manufacturing. It’s probably not a way to get rich off selling primers necessarily, but it is a way to be able to keep selling ammo when others can’t!

[Castloader]

@P Flados, I have a mini lathe, so I’ve turned a few punches to my needed specifications. I have one for removing the dimple(which has a very slight conical shape), one for packing the powder, and one for setting the anvils. I measured a bunch of factory SPP’s back when I was setting up for this process, and I noticed the anvils sticking out. The thickness I measured is exactly 3mm which is slightly less than .125, it’s .118. I bought a 3mm plate on fleabay for this purpose.

I’m sure that if you stick a small dowel in a drill and polish with sandpaper, you could make some very effective packing punches. Just a thought.

I’m sure there are a variety of ways to do this. It’s been great to have someone else working on it as well! Cheers!

[P Flados]

I also have a mini lathe. I looked up the spec for primers and the height range is 0.1150" to 0.1260" for everything except large rifle. I might "adjust" my anvil seating punch/die to get my primers close to the low end of the spec, but I kind of want to give my current materials, methods and settings a fair test before I make too many more changes.

One thing I did was buy a full set of sifting screens (https://www.riogrande.com/product/stackable-sifting-pan-set/350070) and my most recent batches of NC, AL, and Glass have been sifted to get consistent particle size.

The above reminds me that I wanted to share more on processing glass. Just after I got started down this path, my wife dropped and broke a pyrex mixing cup. How convenient. The downside was that the chunks were mostly quite thick and very very mortar / pestle unfriendly. I pondered it for a while and then decided to try pulverizing as a first step. I used a brass 3/4” NPT pipe cap, a 6” nipple and a 2' long 5/8” metal rod to pulverize chunks. The pulverized mix is dumped, run through the sifting screen set and the bigger stuff goes back in the “to be pulverized” pile. The finer stuff that is one or two screens bigger than desired gets final processing in a mortar and pestle. The process is much easier and cleaner than my initial attempt using mortar and pestle only to process glass.

As far as business opportunities, making primers sounds full of liability issues and then you have to deal with the Hazmat mess. To avoid those issues, a small outfit could probably do well supplying stuff that is less convenient to obtain right now. I would not buy cups and anvils, but some would. What I would buy are Lead Hypo, ground glass and aluminum powder all from one place in packages with quantities suitable for 5K LPP.

The other "not easy" item is NC powder. I do not think it could be shipped as powder without hazmat. Round rods 1/2" x 6" should be shippable and would save the effort of making pucks for those currently using the puck method. I think I saw somewhere that someone had found he could run flake smokeless through a hand coffee grinder in several passes to get a fine powder. This might be the best / easiest path to good NC powder.

[Castloader]

Good stuff here. Yes, the sifting screens really help with consistency. I wish I had thought to make a “mortar&pestle” out of pipe fittings, it would have saved me a lot of mess and given me a much better yield. I did the ziploc bag/hammer method, but I like yours way better.

My CCI SPP’s consistently measured .118”, so thats what I’ve been aiming for. I saw somewhere on Rumble a guy who had made a strip of aluminum plate with a line of holes in it that he would run through his single stage press to seat anvils consistently. I’ll probably try that pretty soon. I have very low anvil seating consistency.

I imagine that a business wanting to start up making primers would probably have more success just making primers rather than selling components. The AL powder is generally frowned upon for mass distribution, see skylighter.com for more detail there. Heavily regulated. I’m still not sure about the Lead hypo. Did you look carefully at the shipping label when it arrived? Lets just say I’m glad it showed up and I’m not interested in asking too many questions about how it got here.

I have seriously considered getting a cheap coffee grinder exclusively for chems like this, possibly NC, maybe some AL powder. I did a bunch of research years ago about making AL powder. Apparently, keeping a small particle size without letting it oxidize is the challenge. Mixing with charcoal seems to be the preferred way.

Regarding grinding NC, my top concern is how sticky and plasticky it is. It could just gum the whole thing up.

Happy New Year!

[Castloader]

New better video of the hangfires using HS-6 powder with my 9mm CZ TSO. You can see the hammer drop unlike with the Glock, and I got some slow motion.

https://youtu.be/xd3Qmym2hwU

I’ll be returning to this powder as I tweak the primer recipe until I can get the delay to go away. It’s a really weird feeling experiencing the short delay.

[mvintx]

For both Pflados and Castloader, are you resizing your primer cups or just hammering out the dents? As far as grinding NC, I'm trying to decide between the puck/acetone or coffee grinder method.

And Happy New Year to all. May 2022 be better.

[P Flados]

I have very low anvil seating consistency.


The improvement I got for anvil seating with wetting the loose powder and then cone point powder packing was significant. It is much faster and easier and I have only messed up one primer (anvil turned sideways) since I started doing it this way. You should give it a try.

Thanks on the good pointers in regard to AL powder. I have mine stored in a couple of small ziplock bags, but I may want to upgrade my storage using a bigger ziplock to hold the smaller ziplocks and throw a desiccant in the big ziplock. I am not so sure about mixing in charcoal. I worry about affecting performance. Other than keeping as dry as possible, I am not sure there is much else I would want to try. Also, for the AL powder I think the desired size is big enough (80-100 I think) to be less of a problem than for a really fine powder.

Yesterday, I used a belt sander (with 80 grit abrasive) to generate some more powder from scrap AL. It took more work and generated less powder than I hoped for. I have made and discarded lots of AL powder in the past during metal working activities. I am considering trying a very fine blade on my small bench top band saw with very slow advance speeds.

[oldsalt444]

I've dabbled in primer remaking with "Prime-All". That's the old military H48 corrosive stuff (but they won't tell you that). First thing I learned was their method of "a scoop of this and 2 scoops of that" just doesn't work. You need to weigh out the components per Aardvark Reloading. I got much better results that way, but still not 100% "bang". So I put in a punch cut roll cap (for toy guns) in the bottom of each cup, added the compound, packed it down with a bamboo skewer, a drop of denatured alcohol with shellac added, a punch cut paper cover on top and seated the anvil. I also added a touch of aluminum powder and baking soda to the compound. The baking soda is a preservative and the aluminum gives a hotter spark. Results were almost 100% ignition. The few that didn't were due to deformation of the cup being so flattened that the firing pin couldn't make a deep enough strike. That tiny piece of brass takes a lot of punishment and changes shape enough that it can be difficult to seat it back into the case. So you end up pressing it in there harder and the cup flattens out more.

So I'm thinking that it would be good to make some kind of die to "resize" the cups. But that is beyond my abilities. I have now started to anneal the cups after pounding out the dent to keep the brass soft. Working the brass makes it hard and brittle which also makes it tougher for the firing pin to make a good dent. All you need is a propane torch.

Castloader, I really like your idea of the 3mm plate. It seems to make the process much quicker, neater and easier. I'm curious; what does the ground glass do, anyway?

[P Flados]

I just got back from the range. I shot more than 100 and no real problems. Some may have been slightly less powerful than standard, but about half of what I shot were from "older method" batches. Everything was "good enough" for typical practice shooting at the range.

One primer in a 38 was noted to have black residue in the firing pin indent. It looked like a tiny crack went through the cup material. I am guessing that this is to be expected. In my opinion, an occasional pierced primer with a low pressure rounds is pretty low risk for firing pin damage. The cup was from a small batch of S&B SPP I harvested from some fired 38s I had stashed. I will probably toss the rest of that batch after the second firing.

Late update: Going through my brass back at the house, I found one "light strike" unfired 38 Sp round. I think I missed noting it at the range because it was probably the last round in a cylinder where I lost track of rounds fired.

[P Flados]

So I'm thinking that it would be good to make some kind of die to "resize" the cups. But that is beyond my abilities. I have now started to anneal the cups after pounding out the dent to keep the brass soft. Working the brass makes it hard and brittle which also makes it tougher for the firing pin to make a good dent. All you need is a propane torch.


I am "pressing" out the indentation in my reloading press using a small flat nose ram and a die with a recessed flat surface so that I can go full travel on the handle. This is probably more consistent and easier on the brass than methods involving a hammer.

The general consensus for most primer reloaders seems to be to not anneal the cup. However, being an engineer that understands things like cold working brass, I do not always agree with "popular wisdom" type guidance. I would say that annealed cups should not be used on higher pressure applications. Annealing may even reduce life as the material at the indentation may get thinner more quickly. I can see annealing working if you are only using them in low pressure rounds and you are using them in a gun with a lighter strike. If someone is just trying to maximize number of reloads per cup, some careful testing with a "partial anneal" (in a temperature controlled oven for just long enough to remove say 75% of the cold work) about 2 uses prior normal end of life would be a good start. On the other hand, a full anneal of a thick cup (CCI 41, CCI 450 for example) for use in a low pressure pistol application might work well. If you were using mixed cups and had light strike issues, could you have been getting some of these "less sensitive" rifle primer cups mixed in.

Making EPH 20 for use with fast burning powders in handgun ammo is not that bad and can provide for a lot of low cost per round shooting.

For those wanting to try non-corrosive without buying the full lab equipment for making Lead Hypophosphite, the guys at the MeWe forum have one or more loaner sets. I would say that for most shooters, you can use the loner set and make enough Lead Hypophosphite to last until either factory primer availability and cost get more reasonable or until you know enough to better decide on how deep you want to get into primer reloading. If you use the loner set, I would say one 200 gram bag of Sodium Hypophosphite should be enough. Even for more active shooters, starting with this quantity might be wise just to make sure you are happy with primer reloading before putting out a big effort in making a lot of Lead Hypophosphite.

[Castloader]

For both Pflados and Castloader, are you resizing your primer cups or just hammering out the dents? As far as grinding NC, I'm trying to decide between the puck/acetone or coffee grinder method.

And Happy New Year to all. May 2022 be better.
I’m just smacking out the dent, but the punch is made to just barely fit inside the cup. I skip any primers that have gotten flattened. I know some people push them through a sizer, but I don’t have one thats exactly the right size. I made one with a drill bit, but it sizes the cup a hair too small.

[P Flados]

The spec for SPP and SRP pockets is 0.1730" to 0.1745" and for primers it is 0.1745" to 0.1765".

I made a reamer and made a sizing die for SPP / SRP. I resized several hundred cups and found them to be just under the low end of the spec for primer diameters and found they were too loose for comfort in some of my older brass. I opened up the die to get my sized primers to mic out somewhere between 0.1745" and 0.1747". There is some spring back and it is not entirely consistent from one primer to the next.

About half of the SPP primers I have assembled were sized. None of the LPP were sized. All of my cup sizing was done after I ordered stuff, but before I made my first batch of Lead Hypo. At this point I am not convinced one way or the other if cup sizing is worth the effort. For one thing, the factory installation of the primer into a case did an initial "sizing" that should minimize the number of removed cups close to the high end of the primer spec.

Collecting batches of similar (good) or "same brand and type" (better) primers probably does more for consistency than sizing. If you do not have a lot of fired primers that can be sorted, look at your stash of fired cases and/or start gathering once fired brass just for primer harvesting. I have done some gathering recently. I am passing on 9s as too many have "glock damaged" primers where the firing pin plows a groove as the barrel moves downward to unlock the slide. I like the look of most 380s, 38 Sp and 45 acp (small and large) a lot better. My indoor range sells their brass to a scrapper, so I have started bringing a bag of my trash brass to "trade in" when I pick up stuff at this location. The outdoor range I occasionally go to has an official brass pick up policy that Oks picking up anything that is still on the ground.

[P Flados]

Over the past 40 some odd years I have discarded a lot of aluminum powder as an unwanted byproduct of metalworking. Of all of the tools I have used, I thought about those that produce fine powder while removing material.

First I tried a belt sander and was not happy with the results.

Yesterday I tried using my small benchtop bandsaw with a fine blade. Before cutting I cleaned out the inside of the bandsaw and the inside of my shop vac. I connect them up and I made lots of cuts in some 1/16" thick scrap where the cut off strip of AL was about one blade width. In less than 1 hour I had set up, made and sifted the powder and cleaned up. Yield was around:


40 grains of 60 - 80. This is too big based on info at MeWe. If I get a coffee grinder, I will see if I can use this stuff to make the recommended size.
20 grains of 80 - 150. There was not much 80 - 100 (which is still bigger than recommended) so I threw it in with the 100 - 150. The 100 - 150 is the recommended range.
I collected some less than 150 just because it was there. This would probably be good with just a small amount mixed in with my NC for my EPH 20 type applications, but I am a little hesitant to try. It is so fine, I worry about oxidation. Since we wet the mix to activate it, this really fine AL might degrade pretty quick.


I can probably shift my yield more to the recommended mesh size by reducing the speed of my cuts. Given that I am not planning on making primers for rifle or magnum pistol use at this time, this could be more than I will ever need. I certainly have more than enough to play with for enhancing my pistol primers. Making powder this way was much less work for me than hand filing.

[notenoughguns]

I don't know if it's been mentioned before but that grey powder you mix in Tannerite is nothing more than fine aluminum powder which would give you more than enough to make 1000's of primers from a 1 lb target , just saying !

[blackthorn]

This thread needs to become a sticky!

[Castloader]

For both Pflados and Castloader, are you resizing your primer cups or just hammering out the dents? As far as grinding NC, I'm trying to decide between the puck/acetone or coffee grinder method.

And Happy New Year to all. May 2022 be better.

I am just hammering out the dents, but I avoid any primer cups that have any mushrooming. They don't work with my primer loading station. I may try to resize eventually if I need to.

[Castloader]

Other than keeping as dry as possible, I am not sure there is much else I would want to try. Also, for the AL powder I think the desired size is big enough (80-100 I think) to be less of a problem than for a really fine powder.
Dry powder is not the goal, unoxidized powder is. That's where the charcoal comes in. It absorbs oxygen. Wetting naked AL powder may or may not accelerate oxidation, I'm not sure.


Yesterday, I used a belt sander (with 80 grit abrasive) to generate some more powder from scrap AL. It took more work and generated less powder than I hoped for. I have made and discarded lots of AL powder in the past during metal working activities. I am considering trying a very fine blade on my small bench top band saw with very slow advance speeds.
If I get into making AL powder, it'll be with a ball mill. I was thinking we wanted exceptionally small particle sizes, on the order of a few microns. I'm sure we'll both be trying it shortly, so we'll find out what bigger sizes do, if anything. I have my 4th batch started, and this one will be with AL powder stolen from a Tannerite pack I have. I'm sure it's already high quality, so it'll be something of a benchmark. Plus, there's enough in one packet to make quite a lot of primers at 5 grains per batch.

I recommend avoiding grinding AL to get powder, either with sandpaper or a grinding wheel due to contamination. I know AL is pretty soft, but especially sandpaper degrades as you use it and it'll get grit into your AL powder. I doubt the grit will really cause too many problems, we have Pyrex powder as a frictionator, but it's a known, measured quantity. I wouldn't want random grit from other sources thrown in if I could avoid it.

[Castloader]

Castloader, I really like your idea of the 3mm plate. It seems to make the process much quicker, neater and easier. I'm curious; what does the ground glass do, anyway?

It increases friction in the chemical compound which helps ensure ignition. It was left out of earlier recipes, but sometimes the firing pin strike would not set them off.

I'm planning to make a batch soon with powdered AL instead of pyrex. It supposedly does the same thing as pyrex while also generating a lot more heat. The AL will send a shower of incandescent particles through the flash hole. This is supposedly a fix for the hangfires experienced with slow-burning powders. We'll test it out as we continue this work and report back.

[Castloader]

At this point I am not convinced one way or the other if cup sizing is worth the effort.

Agreed, the only reason I would do it is to remove the mushroom from some of the cups that experienced a little pressure. Right now, I don't know which cups are SPP vs SRP, and I assume the mushroomed ones are SRP's probably from 300BLK load development. I have thousands of un-mushroomed cups to use, so no need to go there right now.

[Castloader]

I can probably shift my yield more to the recommended mesh size by reducing the speed of my cuts. Given that I am not planning on making primers for rifle or magnum pistol use at this time, this could be more than I will ever need. I certainly have more than enough to play with for enhancing my pistol primers. Making powder this way was much less work for me than hand filing.

I'm interested to see how it works out!

[Castloader]

I don't know if it's been mentioned before but that grey powder you mix in Tannerite is nothing more than fine aluminum powder which would give you more than enough to make 1000's of primers from a 1 lb target , just saying !

Yes, coming soon.

[P Flados]

I was back in the "Homemade Primer Course" document and I found: "80 mesh (60-100 mesh will work) aluminum powder". This is recommending particles quite a big bigger than what I saw over at MeWe.

I did another run with the bandsaw and got AL particles size shifted a little closer to what we want. I am still getting more 60-80 than I want. The 60-80 is pretty course. I may try cutting through thinner material.

Regardless of what I am getting and given the mixed recommendations I found, I am thinking I will try 25% each of 60-80, 80-100, 100-150 and 150-200.

I re-sifted everything and separated it all into zip lock bags with 60-80, 80-100, 100-150, 150-200, 200-325.

[Castloader]

Good video. Dang that guy needs some PPE though. His glib remarks about the “free cancer” are a bit unsettling. I think I’m juggling enough toxicity at the moment.

[Castloader]

Well, I had my first primer go off while priming a case. My fourth batch is EPH25. I used 1.7 grains of aluminum from a .5lb Tannerite mixing packet. BTW, the whole packet weighed 187 grains, so I figure I have enough aluminum powder to make nearly 100 batches of EPH25 primers, (10,000 primers). It came out as air float powder. The first thing I noticed with EPH25 is that the priming compound was slightly more resistant to wetting with the alcohol/water slurry. It would get fully wet, but it seemed less sponge-like and took longer for the wetness to travel around the mixture. As such, I ended up using more water in each cup. Other than that, the only difference was that I tried hard to get some uniformity in the anvil seating. Instead of smashing the anvils down as hard as I could, I focused on getting them really level with the 3mm plate. I'm thinking about making a priming strip to run through my single-stage press. I think that will help with the process. I dried in my Instant Pot again, and that will remain my standard method. I noticed the bottom of the bowl gets quite hot, so I used a small stainless ramekin dish as a buffer. I want the air temp to dry them out, not conduction from the bottom. Worked great, overnight they were ready. I have 50 9mm casings and 50(well 49) 38SPL cases primed for loading. Based on the one that went off, power should be no issue for this batch. I'm planning to use a variety of slow powders for some 38SPL, and repeat the HS-6 test with 9mm to see what happens. I have IMR 4227, Alliant 2400, and A#9, for my slow powders. We'll see what happens.

[mvintx]

Well, if there is a possibility of capping off a primer during seating, I don't think I'll be doing that in a progressive press. Might be safer to do the process separately.

Any idea as to what mesh the aluminum powder is from your exploding target? Wonder if it made any difference in the wetting and seating difficulty? I've got a couple of 2-1/2 lb Star Targets that have been on the back shelf for several years but not sure if I want to scavenge the aluminum powder from them if it's not of an appropriate mesh. Exploding targets might have some use in the future.

[P Flados]

From what I have seen, aluminum powder made in a ball mill is way too fine for primers.

The AL particles are supposed to be large enough to start burning and then stay burning as they penetrate into the gunpowder to get the main charge ignition started in as many locations as possible. When you see pictures / videos of the flash from commercial primers, the streaks/sparks are aluminum (or similar) particles.

Unless we can get lower rates for dry primers going off when being seated, a progressive sounds like asking for trouble.

[P Flados]

I fired a mix of reloaded primers at the range. All 130 went off on first strike, but two were partial ignition with very low bullet velocity leaving the gun.

I am mentally going through my choices for what changes I should make to get improved reliability.

I will probably order a cheap hand coffee grinder to try to get a more consistent particle size with mechanical processing only on flake powder (Promo) followed by sifting to get desired particle size. I worry that a clump of larger NC particles in the "pinch zone" can result in a poor pellet ignition.

I will probably also go to EPH 25 mixes instead of EPH 20 mixes.

Until I get happy with consistency, I should probably also be very careful with the drying sequence. I am thinking at least 3 hours of 120 degf followed by at least 12 hours at ambient and 1 hour of 110 just prior to loading. The PID controller for my toaster over (set up for powder coating cast bullets) regulates very well in this mode and I recently re-calibrated the thermocouple (adjusted it to read 212 degf in boiling water).

[Tedly]

Thanks for sharing

[Castloader]

I picked up an electric coffee grinder today for $12. I threw some Power Pistol into it and let it rip. I selected PP because I’ve heard that there aren’t any burn-controlling additives to slow it down like flash suppressant. I just dumped some in, probably a tablespoon or so and went at it for a while until the motor started to feel slightly warm, maybe two minutes or so. Then I dumped on a 100-mesh screen to sift. I was surprised at how little made it through. Fast forward 20 minutes or so (actually all day, but I picked it up and put it down so many times I’m estimating) and I’ve got about 20 grains of 100 mesh nitrocellulose. This is far and away better than mortar and pestle. 20 grains will let me make 400 primers, so the work was well worth it, and it sucked way less than grinding in the miserable mortar & pestle.

I’ll report back after I shoot these EPH25 primers. I doubt the fine AL size will cause problems, but we’ll see. If it does, I’ve got this new coffee grinder and I’ll go at some aluminum foil looking for a courser mesh.

[Castloader]

By the way, I noticed that I’m now a “Boolit Man” vs a “Boolit Buddy”. Does that kind of thing happen automatically?

[No_1]

By the way, I noticed that I’m now a “Boolit Man” vs a “Boolit Buddy”. Does that kind of thing happen automatically?

Yes, once you reach 75 posts.

BTW, congratulations - This (your) post is now a sticky!

Robert

[Castloader]

I'm quite humbled actually, and grateful to all the good folks here that have so enriched my life and taught me so much. Cheers everyone!

[P Flados]

Caution ------------ Warning ------------- Danger

Take extra care to make sure reloaded primers are fully seated in the case prior to assembling your ammo.

Today I assembled 50 LPP and installed them in my modified 38 Sp cases.

After the initial 3 hr bake at 120 degf, I brought them into the house. I was looking at one an noted that the primer was just proud of the case base. I went through the batch and found another 6 with the primer sticking up a little. I took the 7 cases into the garage and ran them back through my Lee hand priming tool to get them all at least flush. I applied pressure very slowly and carefully, but still had 1 of the 7 go off.

Some guns are capable of pushing a proud primer further into the case when chambering a round. Unless we can figure out how to stop getting these EPH 2x primers going off when being seated in a case, making sure all primers are seated at least flush before loading the case is more important than ever. If you do not get these primers at least flush, these guns would be at risk for having the gun fire as a round is being chambered.

[Castloader]

I hadn’t thought of that, but I have been giving the priming process some extra care. I always prime with my hornady handheld priming tool. I can feel when the primer is right and if I pop one, as long as it’s pointed in a safe direction, we’re good. Lately due to inconsistent anvil height, I’ve been running my finger over each primer to make sure it’s seated flush or slightly deeper before I move on. Good observation.

[P Flados]

My last couple of batches have been assembled in a 1/8" plate with holes. I think I am getting 5% to 10% more powder in the cups and it is taking me longer between wetting and putting the primer in the case. I think this is making it a little harder to get primers flush. I think I need to adjust my anvil seating punch/die to reduce assembled primer height by 0.003" or so.

[dverna]

There is a lot of value in this thread. Someday we may be forced to produce primers and this will be critical information. The other value....when primers drop to $40/k, only a fool, or the poor, will not stock up.

Interesting thread.

[Castloader]

Yes, in spite of all I’ve learned, stocking up is still far better. Being self-sufficient is great, as is continuing to shoot when many cannot, but it’s nowhere near as good as having a stockpile of components to last a lifetime.

Makes me wonder if some future guru will start a thread on how to make smokeless powder…

[Castloader]

My last couple of batches have been assembled in a 1/8" plate with holes. I think I am getting 5% to 10% more powder in the cups and it is taking me longer between wetting and putting the primer in the case. I think this is making it a little harder to get primers flush. I think I need to adjust my anvil seating punch/die to reduce assembled primer height by 0.003" or so.

Interesting. That could also account for the primer seating AD’s you’ve had more than I. I’ve had one in 400 so far.

Do you think any of the primers mentioned earlier had somehow backed out of their cases? Did you wet prime the cases and then dry the primers? I’m wondering if the anvils could move while drying.

[P Flados]

My initial problem was installing primers into cases after letting the primer mix dry. Once activated (wetted and then allowed to dry), my mix was going off when slowly being compressed during seating.

Because of this problem, I started seating the primers in cases before just after wetting.

[Castloader]

Ok. Yes, I think your cups are overfilled. I always dry my primers before priming cases and I don’t have this issue. (Except once, and who knows what happened that time). What is your primer AD rate?

[ofitg]

I've dabbled in primer remaking with "Prime-All". That's the old military H48 corrosive stuff (but they won't tell you that). First thing I learned was their method of "a scoop of this and 2 scoops of that" just doesn't work. You need to weigh out the components per Aardvark Reloading. I got much better results that way, but still not 100% "bang". So I put in a punch cut roll cap (for toy guns) in the bottom of each cup, added the compound, packed it down with a bamboo skewer, a drop of denatured alcohol with shellac added, a punch cut paper cover on top and seated the anvil. I also added a touch of aluminum powder and baking soda to the compound.

Oldsalt, your method sounds similar to what I tried last year. I placed a paper cap “dot” in the bottom of the cup, and wet it by misting it (a few sprays from an atomizer bottle) with common 70% isopropyl rubbing alcohol. I topped off the cup with a mixture of potassium chlorate (60%), antimony sulfide (30%), and confectioners sugar (10%). Next, I wet the top surface of the mixture with rubbing alcohol again and then seated the anvil. The sugar acts as a combustible binder, and baking soda was not needed because there is no sulfur present.
I allowed the primers to dry for a few days (a small desk fan helps) before seating them in cartridge cases for testing. Over a period of several days I tested 100 of these primers and every one popped.

I have been making my own potassium chlorate, but antimony sulfide is a bit more difficult to get. Lately I dabbled with an idea presented by “Wicket” in this old post, substituting homemade tin sulfide for antimony sulfide -

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?185388-cap-making-dies&p=2752814#post2752814

My set-up was fairly simple – I mixed 15 grains of powdered tin (from Walmart) with 10 grains of sulfur and dumped the mixture into a titanium “crucible” (actually, a titanium shot glass). I heated the bottom of the cup with a propane torch -

https://i.imgur.com/95L7DkD.jpg

I should mention that this torch (from Amazon) seems to be more powerful than the old propane torch I bought from Ace Hardware years ago. Within a few seconds I could see smoke coming out of the cup, and a few seconds later I could see flames coming out of the cup. It only lasted a few seconds, then the flame and smoke stopped. I looked down into the cup, and the titanium bottom was glowing orange-red. I shut off the torch and allowed everything to cool down.
I recovered 19 grains of dark crumbly solids from the cup – this corresponds nicely to 15 grains of tin bonding with 4 grains of sulfur. Evidently the excess sulfur just burned away, up in smoke. As I was pulverizing this material with a mortar & pestle, I could see tiny sparkles of reflected light scattered across the surface – apparently this material has a basic crystalline structure. I mixed up some H48 compound, substituting this material for antimony sulfide on an “equal weight” basis, and loaded a few percussion caps. After they dried, the percussion caps performed perfectly.

One of these days, I intend to try powdered pewter (more than 90% tin) instead of pure powdered tin.


Technical note - when the tin/sulfur mixture reaches 900 degrees C (1650 degrees F), it ignites and the chemical reaction occurs, producing tin sulfide.

[P Flados]

What is your primer AD rate?

Over 5% for sure, possibly closer to 10%.

[Castloader]

There’s always the possibility that there’s something off with your lead hypo. Although I would expect problems elsewhere, not priming cases. I would start with lowering your anvil height, and then see what happens.

I’m thinking about the batch size. I follow the recipe straight out of Marshall Thompson’s pdf and that charges 100 SPP cups. If you’re doing the same, then you can’t really be overfilling the cups as long as the powder is equally distributed.

[Castloader]

@ofitg, thanks for that, I’m sure the guys working through the H-48 method will be delighted. Chemistry can be fun when things go right. Personally I hated it in high school, but the experiments were so dull it’s no wonder. When my son is in chemistry class he’ll probably enjoy it more… :bigsmyl2:

[Castloader]

I think I may have made a batch of magnum SPP's today.

I was making a second batch of EPH25 and using the 100 mesh NC from my coffee grinder. It's wonderful not to have to grind with the mortar & pestle for a half hour or so just to make 100 primers. Anyway, I had a batch of EPH25 already made up, sitting in a small container ready to divide into the cups. I dropped 100 cups into my primer loading plate and sprinkled the mixture over the top as I had before. To my consternation the mixture did not fill all the cups. During previous sessions, I'd have to scrape and spread the mixture many times to help convince it to fill up the cups. This time, I spread it all over, and there was plenty of room left. Several cups were nearly empty, and others at various stages of filling. At first, I figured some of the cups must be overfilled, so I gently teased the powder out and kicked it around, but it was obvious that the cups were still low.

I did some quick math and made up a quarter batch, stirred it up and spread it around. This time it really did fill the cups up. Unsurprisingly, when tamping, it seemed to me that the cups were now somewhat more full of mixture than in the past. I finished wetting, placing the paper wad, anvil and set them. A bunch of anvils were hard to set and kept wanting to come out. I decided then to prime the cases while the mixture was wet, anticipating some AD's if I waited for it to dry. Seating the primers I noticed that many did not want to seat the last couple thou or so and needed some real encouragement to get to the happy flush/slightly below flush seating point.

The only difference between this batch and the previous ones, was that I ground the entire EPH25 mixture in my mortar & pestle after mixing. Normally, I just mixed the Lead Nitrate, Lead Hypo, Pyrex and NC together with a glass rod for a few seconds, then spread it over the cups. I think the LN got ground up very finely this time. The LN comes out of the bottle like fine play sand, and previously gave a very gritty feel to the mixture. This time, it was like spreading talcum powder. I'll have some more experimentation to do here. I also noticed that the wetting process was more like EPH 20 this time instead of my previous batch of EPH 25 where the mix seemed to slightly resist wetting.

I'm considering doing a test like one on Rumble where different mixtures are fired in empty cases in a dark room with a pistol and a ruler to show relative flash levels. I'm really wondering how these primers stack up with flash level compared to commercial primers.

I am trying a new case drying technique since the cases are wet primed. I put a 1" thick spacer grating on the bottom of my Instant Pot, put a circle of cardboard on top, and placed my primed cases on top of that, sitting in their ammo trays. Now, if somehow I had a detonation during drying, the blast would not affect any of the adjacent primers. I have it set to 130 degrees for 12 hours. I do not anticipate any issues with having cardboard in the Instant Pot, I can already hear folks recommending against that due to flammability concerns. I'll probably use something else eventually, but I wanted a buffer to keep the primers off the bottom of the pot where the surface temperature is higher.

NITROCELLULOSE
In order to speed up the process of making future batches, I wanted to make a bunch of 100 mesh NC. I threw about a quarter cupful of Power Pistol in the coffee grinder yesterday. Every so often, I'd grind it for 60 seconds then move on with my day and let the bearings cool down. I did this perhaps 5-8 times between yesterday and today. This evening, I finally dumped it all onto my 100mesh screen and sifted. I got about 90 more grains of fine Nitrocellulose. Added to what I had before, I now have enough to make about 2,400 primers. This step eliminates the biggest PITA of making a batch of primers. The NC really resists grinding, but using a larger volume helps it grind much more effectively. For anyone already making primers or thinking of getting into it, a cheap coffee grinder dedicated for chemicals is proving to be extremely valuable. If I want to make more ground Pyrex, you can bet I'll be recruiting this little guy.

[P Flados]

My hand coffee grinder came in today. I tossed in about 200 gr of Promo (bulk Red Dot, a fast flake) and hand ground till 90% was through the grinder, dumped the outlet bottle back into the inlet and repeated again and again. Every so often I would toss the outlet bottle contents over into my sifter set. The results was around 70% of 60 - 80 mesh, 10% of 80-100 mesh, and 20% less than 100 mesh with much of that being almost dust. With the really fast flake, I am hoping this is fine enough.

I measured up a mix of 11.7 LN, 11.7 LH, 4 GG, 6 NC, 1.7 AL. Over at MeWe there was some discussion of going down on the ground glass (GG) to allow more NC and/or AL.

I assembled 20 primers with this mix for testing. I seated anvils (punch/die now set for 0.119" instead of my previous 0.125"). I did not insert the primers into cases. I want see what they do for both UD (Unintentional Discharge) and for power.

I also assembled 10 similar rounds using my older batch of NC and a more standard mix for comparison.

Neither batch went to the oven yet. I will probably give them an hour at 120 degf just before inserting them into cases.

For power level testing, I am firing primed 38Sp out of my 8" TC Contender with the muzzle firm against a cardboard box. So far, my most powerful LPPs rupture the first layer of material and leave a pretty good burn. Good SPPs scorch the cardboard. Weak primers leave a little residue and no real scorching.

[Castloader]

I just tested 2 primers from last night's EPH25 batch. I set up my iPhone on Slo-Mo to try to capture the flame in a dark room. Results were very good. Peak flame length was more than 12" from the muzzle of my Glock19.294335294334

[P Flados]

Impressive. Plenty of flame and lots of streaks from your AL.

I did initial testing of the two batches discussed in my last post. All 20 went in with no UD. I could not tell the difference between them as far as power.

These were much easier to get seated "at least flush". I think most of my primer reloads that went off during seating were ones that required very high thumb pressure to get the handle to the position that is typically "good enough" for full insertion.

I assembled 100 more for testing to see if I want to go back to drying before insertion.

I also assembled 5 made from a mix with NC under 100 mesh and normal ratios to see if I can tell a difference in power from my under 60 mesh NC.

[Castloader]

Yes, it seems the fine AL particle size did not cause any problems. I need to do an EPH20 comparison at some point. I think I'll be sticking with EPH25 though for general use. Too easy to upgrade from EPH20 and no downsides provided I have lots of AL powder which I do.

I've also finally joined the Mewe group, so you might see me over there as well.

[Castloader]

I also assembled 5 made from a mix with NC under 100 mesh and normal ratios to see if I can tell a difference in power from my under 60 mesh NC.

I’ll be interested to see those results

[mvintx]

NITROCELLULOSE
In order to speed up the process of making future batches, I wanted to make a bunch of 100 mesh NC. I threw about a quarter cupful of Power Pistol in the coffee grinder yesterday. Every so often, I'd grind it for 60 seconds then move on with my day and let the bearings cool down. I did this perhaps 5-8 times between yesterday and today. This evening, I finally dumped it all onto my 100mesh screen and sifted. I got about 90 more grains of fine Nitrocellulose. Added to what I had before, I now have enough to make about 2,400 primers. This step eliminates the biggest PITA of making a batch of primers. The NC really resists grinding, but using a larger volume helps it grind much more effectively. For anyone already making primers or thinking of getting into it, a cheap coffee grinder dedicated for chemicals is proving to be extremely valuable. If I want to make more ground Pyrex, you can bet I'll be recruiting this little guy.

Well that does it for me. I'm gettin' an electric coffee grinder. Got lots of Power Pistol too. It's my 'go to' powder for 9mm and .40.

[P Flados]

I ran the evening tests. I have had only had one UD out of 125 while seating EPH 2X primers in cases. I have a habit of putting pretty firm pressure on the primer after it gets all the way in. For the one that went off, I am sure I pushed harder than needed.

For power level testing, the under 100 mesh NC was definitely better than the under 60 mesh.

The under 60 mesh might be good enough, but I decided that I would do what it takes to go at least one mesh smaller.

I went and "re-processed" my container of under 60 mesh. My hand grinder is much more efficient at reducing NC to under 60 mesh than it is to getting under 80 mesh. It took quite a bit of work to get 50% reduced to below 80 mesh.

Looking at it, I am pretty confident that the bulk of the cheap ceramic burr hand coffee grinders are all about the same. It is better than anything else I tried, but it leaves lots of room for improvement. These things really are meant for coffee beans. We really could use more precision and finer tooth spacing on the burr.

[Castloader]

The one I’m using has an electric motor and a high speed spinning stainless blade. Walmart $13 in my area. There’s no way to set the “grind size” like on a burr grinder, but the longer it grinds, the finer it gets. It’s really a blender rather than a grinder. I bet in a pinch it would make AL powder as well as ground glass as previously mentioned.

[Castloader]

Thanks for the heads up. At those prices, I’m happy to keep making them. I can crank out a hundred pretty quick at this point.

[dverna]

Thanks for the heads up. At those prices, I’m happy to keep making them. I can crank out a hundred pretty quick at this point.

That is the deal maker IMHO. If it takes three hours to make 100, and primers are selling for $100+, people will make their own. At $40, most people will not.

As I said earlier, it becomes priceless if primers are nearly impossible to get. Then you either makes them or do not shoot.

For those who were caught short, this is a fix worth looking into unless they can afford current prices.

[Castloader]

I have probably 2K popped anvils and cups sorted and ready to be de-dimpled. I got most of those from dry tumbling. To make 100 primers now takes me probably…say 10 minutes to pop out the dimples, maybe 5 more minutes to mix a batch of chemicals, 5 minutes to get the primers loaded into the plate, a minute or two to spread the mixture, 5 minutes to tamp the mix, 5 minutes to wet and set the anvils, and 5 minutes of overall fussing with something or other inevitably. So maybe 40 minutes of work for 100 primers. I’m not counting drying time because that’s just waiting not actually working. Someday I’ll put myself on the clock and see how long it really takes. It could be plus or minus 10 minutes either way, and I’m sure I’ll find ways to be more efficient. Skipping the mortar&pestle step with pre-ground NC was a huge time saver.

[Castloader]

Today I fired 100 rounds with EPH25 primers. Half 9mm and half .38SPL +P (and one .357 mag for good measure).

25 of the 9mm were Power Pistol, everything else was HS-6 except the lone .357 was 2400.

EPH25 has completely solved the hangfire problem. Probably a dozen or more .38SPL rounds required a second, third, fourth or further strikes to ignite, but I suspect this is a fault of the revolver which has lighter springs for competition. I used to run Federal primers exclusively to ensure ignition. I had some problems with some factory .357 as well, so that makes me think it’s a gun problem, not a primer problem. Zero issues with any of the Glock fired rounds.

None of the rounds were hangfires, so that issue seems closed. All my future primers will be EPH25.

[dverna]

Today I fired 100 rounds with EPH25 primers. Half 9mm and half .38SPL +P (and one .357 mag for good measure).

25 of the 9mm were Power Pistol, everything else was HS-6 except the lone .357 was 2400.

EPH25 has completely solved the hangfire problem. Probably a dozen or more .38SPL rounds required a second, third, fourth or further strikes to ignite, but I suspect this is a fault of the revolver which has lighter springs for competition. I used to run Federal primers exclusively to ensure ignition. I had some problems with some factory .357 as well, so that makes me think it’s a gun problem, not a primer problem. Zero issues with any of the Glock fired rounds.

None of the rounds were hangfires, so that issue seems closed. All my future primers will be EPH25.

Good report!!!

I have one of those "tuned" revolvers as well and it will only shoot Federal primers reliably...so that is not a negative or "issue".

If you have a buddy (a son or grandson works well) who is technically savvy, you might want to consider putting together a video of your process. The ones I have seen on YouTube show a painfully slow and labor intensive method. You are leaps and bounds ahead of that. Good work!!!

[Castloader]

If I get a way to hold my iPhone steady, I’ll try to do one of the whole process from start to finish. I have a very modest YT channel that I post on for family and friends including you all here. I’ll see what I can do.

[RogerDat]

The comment on price vs labor was spot on. At a certain price it isn't worth the time to invest in making primers. Varies by available time vs disposable income.

On the other hand I'm regretting the coffee cans of spent primers I took to the scrap yard. That will stop now. Even if I just keep a pile of primers cleaned and in quart zip lock baggies options are good and reuse is highest form of recycling giving us all green brownie points right? :-)

[P Flados]

Probably a dozen or more .38SPL rounds required a second, third, fourth or further strikes to ignite, but I suspect this is a fault of the revolver which has lighter springs for competition.

Any possibility some of you primers used SRP cups? I have a couple of guns that are Ok with SPP, but will get lots of FTFs with factory SRPs.

For me, good news on two fronts.

At the range I had zero noted problems with probably over 200 rounds fired. Ammo was 38 Sp, 357 and 327 (loaded just above 32 H&R). My recently loaded ammo seems much more consistent with power level than the stuff I did earlier on.

At home, I have been focusing on improving my methods for doing volume work. I am probably a little slower than what Castloader reported for primer assembly, but it is not terrible at this point. In the past 2 days, I assembled 300 primers just to set back and use later and I assembled 50 that I used for priming some 357 cases.

At the range I also gathered more than a box of CCI 9mm brass that had been fired in a gun that did not chew up the primers. I have plenty of 9mm brass at home, but now the focus is primer harvesting.

[dverna]

RogerDat,
Agree with you

I have a couple of gallons of spent primers but all mixed up. Not worth the time to sort them but I will be segregating SPP going forward. SPP are the ones I use the most or fun shooting. Less than 100% reliability for fun shooting is not a catastrophe. I would not use home made primers for defensive or hunting weapons.

[P Flados]

On the other hand I'm regretting the coffee cans of spent primers I took to the scrap yard. That will stop now. Even if I just keep a pile of primers cleaned and in quart zip lock baggies options are good and reuse is highest form of recycling giving us all green brownie points right? :-)

Saving is a great idea, but I will say it again. Keep them sorted by type at a minimum. Type and brand is even better.

I use my reloading press to remove indents from cups. I have worked with batches that were mostly SPPs, but were not certain for source. For these batches, it is very easy to tell when I come across a heavy cup SRP / SRPM. Some heavy cup primers also have anvils that are shorter.

As far as sorting by brand, the payoff is that it can make things a lot easier. I have found myself using different techniques for anvil removal depending on brands. Also, for some brands, anvil removal is such a PITA that I don't even bother trying.

[P Flados]

I just finished a batch of 50 with the clock running. It took 1/2 hour.

[Castloader]

Any possibility some of you primers used SRP cups? I have a couple of guns that are Ok with SPP, but will get lots of FTFs with factory SRPs.


Oh absolutely a possibility. I'd say it's pretty likely. I have noticed when removing the dimple, that many of the primer cups will not slip easily over my punch. These must be yanked back off the end of the punch if I smack the dimple out. My thought is that these are certainly SRP's and since the brass is thicker, the inside dimension is slightly smaller. I am tending to skip these entirely now especially since most of them have a slight mushroom. I won't be able to re-use them until I get a sizing die to run them through. I may make one at some point. Still, even without these, there's no guarantee that I don't have SRP's in the mix.

The happy thing for me is that the Glock ate everything I fed it.


I just finished a batch of 50 with the clock running. It took 1/2 hour.

Nice, my time probably wouldn't be far off. Of course a lot of things have been pre-made such as the anvils removed, the NC powdered and sifted, the cups cleaned etc. (The Lead hypo made...) But once that stuff is done in big batches it I kinda ignore the time it took to get it done.

[Castloader]

RogerDat,
Agree with you

I have a couple of gallons of spent primers but all mixed up. Not worth the time to sort them but I will be segregating SPP going forward. SPP are the ones I use the most or fun shooting. Less than 100% reliability for fun shooting is not a catastrophe. I would not use home made primers for defensive or hunting weapons.

Definitely keep those mixed up ones. They may become useful down the road. After you stare at a lot of primers, your brain begins to recognize little things and sorting could be viable. If not for you, for someone else.

[P Flados]

I was unhappy with the time it took me to process 50 primers.

About a week ago, my son 3D printed some 4" x 2.25" x 0.125" plates with 50 undersized holes spaced 5/16" apart based on a crude sketch (see below). He made me some of a variety of materials. I made a 0.177" D Reamer, and opened up the holes to be a nice snug fit. The thickness was closer to 0.127", so after inserting cups and filling them with powder, I was pushing each primer out, wetting the primers, packing them, placing anvils and one at a time placing them on a ram in my reloading press to seat anvils. All of the handling after pushing the primers out of the plate was very tedious and time consuming.

I took one of the plates and scraped and sanded on it to get the thickness down to 0.118" to 0.119". I just ran a test and was able to assemble 15 primers at a much faster pace. This plate allows the primers to stay in the plate for all steps from filling with powder to seating anvils. I will report back after I re-time assembling 50.

[Castloader]

This is a drawing I made in Solidworks for my primer plate. It's based on an 200mmx200mm plate because that's what I found on Ebay. I scratched lines in the plate using a measuring jig that I have, then center punched the intersections and drilled out the holes. Unfortunately, drilling leaves a small crater (Even with a new sharp bit) around the hole opening which must be sanded or filed flat to keep the thickness consistent. I used a #16 drill for the holes since that's .177 already. I believe I also ran a countersink up to each hole, but I did it by hand to avoid over doing the countersink.
294456

With 100 primer cups ready for filling:
294457

I do the entire assembly inside the jig. My only problem is that this jig won't fit under my reloading press. I would much rather seat my anvils using my press. If I had to do it again, I'd have made a grid of 4x25 holes so after assembly(with a backer plate underneath), I could run everything through my press and get all the anvils seated perfectly. To do it even more cleanly, I'd probably build a shelf with a hole for the ram to travel through so I could do the primer assembly right in the press. I'd just slide the plate around and smash the anvils in as I wet each primer.

BTW, I typically wet either 5 or 10 primers, then seat all the anvils at once. Using my hypodermic needle, it goes fast. If I could press-seat the anvils, it would go quicker yet. I can wet 10 primers in about 10-15 seconds. Handling anvils and cups with forceps is the way to go. Tweezers are tedious, and fingers are clumsy. I use a reverse grip with my index finger and thumb through the forceps holes and the jaws extending out past my pinky finger.

Ideally, if I had a small CNC mill, these holes would be milled instead of drilled. That would give cleaner holes, and obviously more perfect spacing.

I really do need to make a video at some point.

For those who haven't read back to the beginning of this thread page 1 and page 2 of this thread have a bunch of pictures of the process.

[Castloader]

I have a drill press...I wonder how much force it would generate. :idea:

[mvintx]

I have a drill press...I wonder how much force it would generate. :idea:

Only as much as you want to exert.

Put a piece of round stock in the chuck, use a piece of flat plate to set the primer on and press away. Some guys use an arbor press and they're capable of much more force than a drill press.

[Castloader]

I just put myself on the clock making 100 primers (Batch 6). 51 minutes, not including removing the dimple, but I spent at least 5 minutes scrubbing out and drying my mortar & pestle, as well as making a couple other minor errors. Some things have come to light:

-As noted over on Mewe group, the Lead Nitrate should be ground finely in the mortar & pestle before use. The mixture was much easier to get into the cups when it was ground up and less "grainy".

-I skipped the paper wad on this batch. Folks over at Mewe said it's unnecessary and you get up to 100 more fps when you eliminate it. Plus faster assembly. I did note that the anvils were easier to seat. My hand could generate plenty of force with the flat punch to seat these appropriately. With this discovery, I have no need to use the drill press, or any other press to seat the anvils.

I am wet priming my cases as a standard practice now. I like knowing that I won't lose any anvils in the drying process, and I won't have any primer AD's when seating. It also seems safer to store the primers right in the brass since I have no other safe storage method. I can dry them in my Instant Pot right inside the cases which suits me.

[P Flados]

Todays effort include two batches of 50 with a combined time of 36 minutes. One batch took a bit longer due to issues seating RP anvils. These anvils have legs with a "foot" that tends to catch on the edge of the cup.

Again, this is just primer assembly. I have spent a bunch of time removing anvils, pressing out cup indentations, making Lead Hypo, making AL powder, NC powder and glass powder.

[Castloader]

So, 100 in 36 minutes? That's a good time! how to you perform the final mix? do you use the mortar & pestle?

I started to use mine to grind and blend the LN last night, and I kept hearing Rice Crispy's in the bowl. I realized that I hadn't cleaned it out ever(stupid, I know), and the last thing I mixed was some EPH25. The humidity must have activated it and I was getting micro pop's with little black spots as the friction kept causing little micro ignitions. I paused everything (except the timer), grabbed my D-lead soap and scrubbed the bowl out with some very hot water. It got nearly back to the pure white porcelain like when I bought it. I've tried doing the final mix several ways: just by shaking in a sealed glass cup (A tiny single-serving honey jar from a fancy restaurant), mixing with a glass stir rod, and blending in the mortar & pestle. I'm interested to know how you do it.

[dverna]

Todays effort include two batches of 50 with a combined time of 36 minutes. One batch took a bit longer due to issues seating RP anvils. These anvils have legs with a "foot" that tends to catch on the edge of the cup.

Again, this is just primer assembly. I have spent a bunch of time removing anvils, pressing out cup indentations, making Lead Hypo, making AL powder, NC powder and glass powder.

To evaluate the 'ROTI', (and that means The Return on Time Invested), the time for prepping and making the compound should be factored in. Even a rough estimate is good enough.

Experimenters do not care much about time or cost
People desperate for primers do not care much about time or cost.
People looking to save money may or may not care about the time needed.
Guys like me will only do it if there is a reasonable ROTI (Return on Time Invested). For example, I stopped casting bullets when I was able to buy 9mm and .38 plinking bullets for $50/k.

[P Flados]

My final mix is just put it in a plastic pill bottle oriented 45° off horizontal, stir with a rod and rotate the bottle until the color is uniform.

I tried a "final grind" in the mortal / pestle early on, and the combination of NC, GG, LH & LN gave me a micro spark to initiate and NC to burn which was not violent, but got my attention and stunk my reloading room up real good.

Don,

Prep time does matter, but is "different" for this retired guy. It can be done well in advance in big batches when I have little else to do (such as it is too nasty to do anything outside).

Part of my time has been sorting stuff. Right now, I worry about anvil brands (CCI & WW seat easy, RP are a PITA to seat) and I do not want rifle cups in my SPP reloads. A smart move is to keep type and brands sorted as you de-cap brass.

Doing a big batch of say CCI prep can be pretty quick if you tumble the up front as a lot of anvils will fall out. The anvil removal from the remaining fraction is quick for me, I have a 1/8" aluminum plate with 20 holes. I drop a primer in each hole, stick a piece of paper clip wire in between two legs and pry the anvil out. About 5% do not roll right out and are tossed. I remove indents on the press and time is similar to single stage de-capping brass.

As an engineer, the time and effort spent making ingredients for EPH 25 is somewhat frustrating. There is an outfit that sells the corrosive primer kits (Prime-All), but no one is making the much more desirable EPH 25 ingredients available from a single source.


Lead Nitrate is available from Amazon and needs minimal processing.
Ground Glass and Ground Aluminum can be bought ready to use, but I made mine.

The guys that sell Prime-All (or anyone else wanting to support those that are doing primer reloading) really could help us out by buying the above in bulk (and Sodium Hypo used to make Lead Hypo) and selling EPH 2X ingredients packaged with the right quantities for say 10K SPP.


Lead Hypo requires a wet lab and must be done carefully. However, in half a day you can probably make enough for probably 16K SPP once you get the technique down. This would go a little faster with good equipment (spend around $150 instead of my around $60).
Getting good consistent fine mesh Nitrocellulose powder has been a royal PITA. Castloader's little coffee grinder (blender type machine) is probably the best identified solution where time spent is the primary concern.

[Castloader]

Ditto everything P Flados said. I popped about 2-3k anvils while I was away from home at a school. In the evenings I'd sit in my room (nothing else to do, there was no homework) and pop anvils with a little tackle box. That got me a big box full of cups/anvils to work with. If I run out of Lead Hypophosphite, I'll set up to make a really big batch and spend all day dripping and stirring and try to use up all the Sodium Hypo I have(I have no other use for it besides this). As long as I don't run out of primer cups to work with, I'll be in good shape. Heck, I bought a pack of 1,000 once fired Speer 9mm casings, just so I could pop the primers and have a stash of definite CCI's. I'll use the brass as well along the way and it was cheap.

Just like with reloading generally, there's a big upfront investment of time, resources and learning, but once you get into it, it starts to flow. Now, if we somehow get 2-3 new primer manufacturers opening their doors soon (I hear Sig is starting up a primer factory) and supply/demand drives the price back to where it was, you can bet I'll hang up this little hobby. But it's nice to know that it can be done (here's the real point) easily enough to be making ammo for regular practice. In other words, in volume. I've made 600 SPP primers to date, and I can make a lot more without too much trouble. With all that said, it's obviously not for everyone. It's also been fun to sort of pioneer some of this. Of course we're standing on the shoulders of Mark Wilson and Marshall Thompson, and they in turn are standing on the shoulders of the real pioneers who developed and patented the processes. We are helping to rediscover the process and bring it into the garages, basements and reloading rooms of any who are inclined.

Still, your sentiments about time and cost are real and valid. Everyone's time has a different value. I'm sure for those who have very expensive time, buying ready-made ammo is the only way to go. We all find ourselves at a slightly different place on that continuum.

I somewhat doubt the feasibility of making ready-made primer chem kits though. It's possible, but I get the impression at this point that Sodium hypo is not as regulated as the @TF could make it, simply because it's off their radar. If a bunch of people start popping up doing this kind of thing and a cottage industry springs up to support it, regulation inevitably will follow.

[P Flados]

One thing did occur to me today as I was sizing / decapping a big batch of 9mm.

If you have a big batch of mixed used primers, you may be able to identify some as SPPs or LPP by looking at them. My son's Glock leaves a very telltale rectangular convex impression in addition to the firing pin indent. Other fixed breech autoloading pistols have firing pin drag marks from the barrel dropping down before unlocking.

CCI (good) and RP (not so good) primers also have anvils that are visually unique.

[Castloader]

True, I've gotten pretty good at distinguishing between primer brands just looking at the anvils. I can pick out CCI, Win and Fed at this point.

If I had to start all over, I'd take the time to sort them out. Pain, I know, but I'd just do it. It's a little late now, though the mushrooming indicates rifle primers as well.

[P Flados]

This evening I did some work on technique. I was having problems with CCI anvils popping out after seating and before I could get them in a case. By reducing batch size for the wetting / anvil seating step, I improved the situation some but did not eliminate it.

I went back and played with RP anvils. I found a wetting / tamping / anvil seating sequence that worked. I have never had a RP anvil come out after seating. So this mornings "bad anvils" are now the "good anvils". Even after I wear out my RP cups, I may be recyling the anvils.

As I type this there are 200 reloaded primers in 9mm cases drying in my PID controlled powder coat oven. Boy that thrift store oven my wife found me has been worth every penny of the $5 she spent.

[Castloader]

A good find like that is a beautiful thing. Are you still using paper wads? I found the anvils much easier to install when I eliminated it on this most recent batch. And do you wet, then tamp, or do you tamp first? I tamp the whole batch first, then bang on the plate to help knock any loose powder back into the cups, then wet and place anvil 5-10 at a time.

[P Flados]

I tried a number of sequences today. I am not confident that I will stick with my current sequence but it is as follows:


Insert cups into plate.
Place 1/4 tsp EPH 25 on plate.
Spread EPH 25 powder with a laminated business card.
Scrape off excess powder with card and return to EPH 25 storage bottle.
A light one stroke tamp on all 50 primers with a square end bamboo skewer that is just big enough to slip inside the cup. I take my time with this step trying to get a full charge into the cup and not spread powder around the hole as I lift up the skewer.
A firm tamp with a cone point skewer (same skewer, different end) on 10 primers.
Wet 10 primers using a pipette with a fine tube (insulation off of 0.031" solid strand wire) inserted in the end. I slowly add liquid from one side watching it first wick across and then add a little more to leave a thin visible layer of liquid on top.
Place 10 anvils.
Seat 10 anvils by hand. I am using the flat face of a "mini hammer" on a multi tool at the moment.
Wipe any residual liquid off of the seated primers with a paper towel.
Start on the next 10 with a firm cone point tamp as the first step.

[Castloader]

People looking to save money may or may not care about the time needed.
Guys like me will only do it if there is a reasonable ROTI (Return on Time Invested). For example, I stopped casting bullets when I was able to buy 9mm and .38 plinking bullets for $50/k.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?436931-Only-two-U-S-ammo-manufactures-will-keep-prices-high

This was educational and a bit dismaying, but not really surprising. If prices ever got back to where they were, it would be really bad business for Vista and Olin. They have the market control to ensure that never happens. I think these prices are for the most part the new normal.

[Castloader]

In tried a number of sequences today. I am not confident that I will stick with my current sequence but it is as follows:


Insert cups into plate
Spread EPH 25 powder with a laminated business card
Scrape off excess powder with card and return to EPH 25 storage bottle.
A light one stroke tamp on all 50 primers with a square end bamboo skewer that is just big enough to slip inside the cup. I take my time with this step trying to get a full charge into the cup and not spread powder around the hole as I lift up the skewer.
A firm tamp with a cone point skewer (same skewer, different end) on 10 primers.
Wet 10 primers using a pipette with a fine tube (insulation off of 0.031" solid strand wire) inserted in the end. I slowly add liquid from one side watching it first wick across and then add a little more to leave a thin visible layer of liquid on top.
Place 10 anvils.
Seat 10 anvils by hand. I am using the flat face of a "mini hammer" on a multi tool at the moment.
Wipe any residual liquid off of the seated primers with a paper towel.
Start on the next 10 with a firm cone point tamp as the first step.


-I never return excess powder to storage. I work the whole 33 or 34 grains into the cups come hell or high water. I just keep scraping, tapping and changing the attack angle of the scraper to press the powder in slightly until it all goes. After tamping, I scrape one more time to ensure max powder in the cups. I used to do a second tamp, but that turns out to be a waste of time.

-I have the same problem with picking up the cups when tamping. I keep my razor blade scraper in one hand to hold down the edge of the cup while removing the tamper.

-I'm thinking that second cone point tamp might be skippable. I know you said it makes anvils easier to seat, was that with or without paper wads? You make no mention of them, so I assume you must be skipping them. If you're worried about primer AD's like me, just wet prime your cases and let the primers dry in the cases. You have to prime anyway and the priming tool becomes an anvil setter using the bottom of the primer pocket. The last couple batches, if I had an anvil pop out, I didn't try to fix it, I just set it by hand into the priming tool, added the anvil and seated the primer into a case. Done.

-I have no residual liquid anywhere. Are you referring to spillage on the plate?

[mvintx]

As I type this there are 200 reloaded primers in 9mm cases drying in my PID controlled powder coat oven. Boy that thrift store oven my wife found me has been worth every penny of the $5 she spent.

At what temp and how long are you drying primers in your oven?

[dverna]

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?436931-Only-two-U-S-ammo-manufactures-will-keep-prices-high

This was educational and a bit dismaying, but not really surprising. If prices ever got back to where they were, it would be really bad business for Vista and Olin. They have the market control to ensure that never happens. I think these prices are for the most part the new normal.

That is the worst case but short lived IMO. There are competitors who be encouraged to set up a primer line if their is a huge market demand and high profitability.

I am hedging for the worst case. I will be segregating spent primers by make and type. If I have to remanufacture primers, I want to be ready with a consistent material base.

I expect the new normal will be in the $40-45/area within a year. I will then buy 100k and have a lifetime supply (when added to my current stock). I will not spend an hour to save $5....but I will make primers if I have to.

This is a great thread. Every week, you guys are making improvements to the process in terms of reliability and productivity. And with those advancements, we get closer to the tipping point where making beats buying.

[mvintx]

That is the worst case but short lived IMO. There are competitors who be encouraged to set up a primer line if their is a huge market demand and high profitability.

I am hedging for the worst case. I will be segregating spent primers by make and type. If I have to remanufacture primers, I want to be ready with a consistent material base.

I expect the new normal will be in the $40-45/area within a year. I will then buy 100k and have a lifetime supply (when added to my current stock). I will not spend an hour to save $5....but I will make primers if I have to.

This is a great thread. Every week, you guys are making improvements to the process in terms of reliability and productivity. And with those advancements, we get closer to the tipping point where making beats buying.

I think you're being optimistic about primers in the $40-50 range but I also hope you are correct in your optimism. I've been watching the primer-making topic with interest for a couple of years now and it was only since reading this thread that my interest has been renewed. For most of us, we like to reload not only because we like to shoot but we are also insulated somewhat from panic-driven shortages. I'm sure many of us also enjoy the process of reloading. When I started casting boolits, again I enjoyed the process. Powder-coating came along and yep, I enjoy that too. Reloading primers is another process that will insulate us from the greed of the marketplace. The process of reloading primers will only grow from what it is today. If we can synthesize one of the ingredients for priming compound, it should be possible to make smokeless powder.

There is a component of the value of time. It all depends on how badly you want or need the result of a given process. Personally, I'd rather spend the time adding a new hobby that preserves my current supply of primers. I may have to never buy another primer again.

Hats off to Castloader and Pflados for their instructive posts.

[Castloader]

I think you're being optimistic about primers in the $40-50 range but I also hope you are correct in your optimism. I've been watching the primer-making topic with interest for a couple of years now and it was only since reading this thread that my interest has been renewed. For most of us, we like to reload not only because we like to shoot but we are also insulated somewhat from panic-driven shortages. I'm sure many of us also enjoy the process of reloading. When I started casting boolits, again I enjoyed the process. Powder-coating came along and yep, I enjoy that too. Reloading primers is another process that will insulate us from the greed of the marketplace. The process of reloading primers will only grow from what it is today. If we can synthesize one of the ingredients for priming compound, it should be possible to make smokeless powder.

There is a component of the value of time. It all depends on how badly you want or need the result of a given process. Personally, I'd rather spend the time adding a new hobby that preserves my current supply of primers. I may have to never buy another primer again.


Well said. I've been wondering about smokeless powder. Unique is over 100 years old, the formula can't be too hard. It's still cheapish to buy whenever you can find it, but I'm curious to know the process. I really do wonder about the possibility of a small time manufacturer producing primers locally and selling to LGS in their area. I can hardly imagine an area in the US right now that would not benefit from this. I imagine with some modern CNC equipment configured specifically for primer manufacture, a single person could be cranking out 10K or more primers per day. If I were an entrepreneur, I might have a go, but I already have a full time job. CNC equipment is getting cheaper by the day, and if you think about it, nothing we are doing is really that complex for machines. For a big company making hundreds of millions of primers a year, very expensive equipment is required. I would think that a primer micro-brewery could do quite well in small batches. Hell, if I were the owner of a LGS, I might take something like this up on the side. Imagine a Mark VII or Ammoload type machine reconfigured to produce primers instead of cartridges. It's not really far fetched.

[Castloader]

I tried a number of sequences today. I am not confident that I will stick with my current sequence but it is as follows:



Place 1/4 tsp EPH 25 on plate.



I just noticed this. Do you make a big batch of EPH25 and just scoop some out?

[blackthorn]

A couple of questions: Are cups and anvils interchangeable within manufacturers? I have several containers full. I take it that the acronym NC, used in this thread, refers to Nitro Cellulous. I also take it that you are grinding NC powder in a coffee grinder. If I'm right, can we use powder(s) collected from when we pull-down ammunition form unknown sources? This last question because I have a good sized bottle of mixed powders accumulated over time from this source. I had planned to use it for fire-forming, starting at three grains and carefully working up but if it can be used for emergency primer making that would be one more reason to continue saving it.

[Castloader]

Yes, Nitrocellulose is what all modern smokeless powder is made of. There are single and double based, but anything works here. Your unknown pull down powder would be ideal here. We aren’t using much, 5 grains of NC per 100 primers.

Regarding cup and anvil interchangeability…yes for the most part. I would recommend keeping rifle and pistol primers separate. Mine were all in a jumble, so I’ve got everything mixed together. We get occasional issues with primers needing more than one strike to ignite, and a few that didn’t give reliable ignition, but most of those problems have been solved.

[dverna]

Well said. I've been wondering about smokeless powder. Unique is over 100 years old, the formula can't be too hard. It's still cheapish to buy whenever you can find it, but I'm curious to know the process. I really do wonder about the possibility of a small time manufacturer producing primers locally and selling to LGS in their area. I can hardly imagine an area in the US right now that would not benefit from this. I imagine with some modern CNC equipment configured specifically for primer manufacture, a single person could be cranking out 10K or more primers per day. If I were an entrepreneur, I might have a go, but I already have a full time job. CNC equipment is getting cheaper by the day, and if you think about it, nothing we are doing is really that complex for machines. For a big company making hundreds of millions of primers a year, very expensive equipment is required. I would think that a primer micro-brewery could do quite well in small batches. Hell, if I were the owner of a LGS, I might take something like this up on the side. Imagine a Mark VII or Ammoload type machine reconfigured to produce primers instead of cartridges. It's not really far fetched.

On another thread I proposed that one of the larger distributors approach Fiocchi to make primers. They already have ammunition manufacturing in the US and they have the expertise from their Italian operations. Not too difficult for them to gear up to make primers. A large distributor provides an instant outlet for product. They would be sold out at a cost of $50 to consumers as things are now...and that is a very profitable business.

I say that because the "gorillas" were making money at consumer pricing o $35/k and costs have not increased more than 30%. $35 shelf price means a place like Powder Valley was paying $25/k and the manufacturer had about $12.50 in material and costs (12.50 margin/k). With a 30% cost increase, new manufacturing cost is going to be about $16.50/k. They can sell to PV for $35/k (netting a margin of $18.50...about a 50% increase in margin. Powder Valley sells for $50/k. PV goes from a profit of $10/k to $15/k....50% increase. We the consumers will be paying 43% more...and be happy about it...LOL.

The problem with a small shop making primers is the labor cost. One person costs $150/day. That is $15/k. Not many folks are currently willing to spend $75/k for factory primers so a small shop might get $50/k...and they better work 99.5% of the time and not "go off" when using a progressive press. If/when factory primers drop to $50/k they cannot compete. I suspect most shops would be unwilling to take on the liability of manufacturing. And at $50/k both the manufacturers and distributors are making more money than they ever have.

Unless there is runaway inflation, price fixing and/or collusion, primers should not stay over $50/k. Raw material and labor cost increases do not support it.

But I am still going to save my spent primers...LOL. I do not trust the ********.

[mvintx]

A couple of questions: Are cups and anvils interchangeable within manufacturers? I have several containers full. I take it that the acronym NC, used in this thread, refers to Nitro Cellulous. I also take it that you are grinding NC powder in a coffee grinder. If I'm right, can we use powder(s) collected from when we pull-down ammunition form unknown sources? This last question because I have a good sized bottle of mixed powders accumulated over time from this source. I had planned to use it for fire-forming, starting at three grains and carefully working up but if it can be used for emergency primer making that would be one more reason to continue saving it.

...about using pull-down powders. The general consensus over on the primer reloading forum at MeWe was to use the fastest pistol powder you have. . . Bullseye, Red Dot, Promo and other 'fast-burning' powders. Castloader is using and getting great results with Power Pistol, which on my burn rate chart is 27 powders slower than Red Dot. If you start making EPH20 or 25, I'd certainly try with the powder you have on hand. It's not like you can run to the LGS and grab a pound of Bullseye anymore. In my opinion, this whole component and ammunition shortage is being manipulated.

[Castloader]

I really think that any powder will work. If I cared to prove it, I’d use some Retumbo just to prove the point. Once it’s ground down to 100 mesh, it’s pretty much the same stuff. One small exception is the coatings that the granules sometimes get to get certain burn characteristics. These could have a slight effect, but I doubt it would be much. We just want some extra heat and the NC provides that. Over on Mewe, folks are grinding pingpong balls and reel-to-reel tape(also NC) and getting good results.

[Castloader]

On another thread I proposed…

All very valid. I hope you’re right. On the other hand, it’s possible that shop primer crafting like we’re doing might become more acceptable and a cottage industry might support it with fresh cups, anvils, tools etc. 12 million new gun owners in the US in the last 22 months and they’re going to be mighty interested in practicing with them. Something will give. It’s really wild to think that beside the time it takes, I’m making primers for about $4/thousand.

[P Flados]

-I never return excess powder to storage..

-I'm thinking that second cone point tamp might be skippable. I know you said it makes anvils easier to seat, was that with or without paper wads?

-I have no residual liquid anywhere. Are you referring to spillage on the plate?

I am currently mixing up 500 or so primers worth of EPH 25 and storing it in a plastic pill bottle. Because of the NC content with possible ignition from a small Lead Nitro crystal I decide glass was less safe. For use, I scoop out 1/4 tsp, spread it around to get uniform content, and then return the excess to my EPH 25 pill bottle. This is easy and it just works.

The cone point tamp gets the powder well packed in near final shape. When you add water it starts "setting up" chemically and forming a solid. The cone point tamp does make anvil setting easier, but it also makes for a more forgiving situation where I am not trying to "mush" an anvil point into a near solidified pellet if I take too long between wetting and seating.

Part of why I am doing the above is for a specific need. I want to be able to make primers that work well for later use. Yes I am doing wet priming and this meets my needs for winter shooting and for summer shooting for loads where I have ample cases (38 Sp & 9mm). I also plan to use "on the self" reloaded primers for regularly used loads where my case supply is limited and I need to reload in the summer when I have less spare time.

When I wet the primer, there is enough room in the cup above the well packed powder for about one drop of liquid. I like having the space about half full of liquid when I stop adding liquid. If I do it right it is almost all soaked in before I set anvils. The standard guidance is "a little too much is better than a little not enough". I do not get it right every time and sometimes if is closer to full when I stop adding liquid. Frequently I am dropping an anvil into a small pool of liquid.

[P Flados]

At what temp and how long are you drying primers in your oven?

When I wet prime cases that I want to load the next day, I am currently doing 2 hours at 120 °F, followed by ambient overnight, and at least another hour at 120 °F on the second day.

When I wet prime cases for use more than a day after priming, I only do the initial 2 hour bake.

If I am making primers for dry priming, I only use the oven if I am in a hurry (typically this is for testing something new).

[P Flados]

A couple of questions: Are cups and anvils interchangeable within manufacturers? I have several containers full. I take it that the acronym NC, used in this thread, refers to Nitro Cellulous. I also take it that you are grinding NC powder in a coffee grinder. If I'm right, can we use powder(s) collected from when we pull-down ammunition form unknown sources? This last question because I have a good sized bottle of mixed powders accumulated over time from this source. I had planned to use it for fire-forming, starting at three grains and carefully working up but if it can be used for emergency primer making that would be one more reason to continue saving it.

I have previously said that sorting by type is good and sorting by type and brand is better.

The above was my best guess at the time. Today I played a lot trying to get happy with some amount of mixing brands for cups and anvils. Very disappointing results. Castloader has made due with mixing because it is what he had. When he tries matched components, I expect he will find things easier and he will get better performance (few if any lost anvils, few if any need for second strikes, etc).

Bad combinations make "in plate" anvil seating by hand more problematic and less consistent.

I have changed my recommendation. Yes some brands may allow good results with some mixing. Do not bet on it until you have proven the specific mix you are interested in. My current best guess guidance is:



Mixing type and brands will be a royal PITA and will adversely affect primer performance.

All one type with mixed brands is likely to be a PITA and may adversely affect primer performance.

Zero mixing may be something of a PITA up front, but is worth it.

If you are just thinking about reloading primers, and keep everything well sorted there is a good chance you will find that you will not use some of what saved. I used a lot of Fiocchi SPPs in recent years. Anvil removal is too difficult for me to bother with this brand of SPP. I also used a bunch of similar looking S&B primers that I consider great for reloading. Even if I had kept all my SPP separate from SRP, I would have lots of these two plus some other similar looking primers from range pickup brass. All in all I would end up tossing the good SPP with the bad because they were mixed.

If your mystery NC is flake or extruded, it is probably useful. Possibly mixed say 50 - 50 with a known fast burning flake. You will need to run some tests using a known "good" choice as a baseline. I have a gut feeling that magnum pistol and rifle ball powders are not a good choice.

[Castloader]

I am currently mixing up 500 or so primers worth of EPH 25 and storing it in a plastic pill bottle. Because of the NC content with possible ignition from a small Lead Nitro crystal I decide glass was less safe. For use, I scoop out 1/4 tsp, spread it around to get uniform content, and then return the excess to my EPH 25 pill bottle. This is easy and it just works.

This seems pretty sketchy. What if some of it starts to set up in the bottle? Humidity could be enough. I suppose if you use it fairly quickly...but this seems like a potential danger point. You'd only have to be wrong once. Also, I'm not understanding why you think a glass jar is more dangerous than plastic. It has lower friction and lower static concerns.


The cone point tamp gets the powder well packed in near final shape. When you add water it starts "setting up" chemically and forming a solid. The cone point tamp does make anvil setting easier, but it also makes for a more forgiving situation where I am not trying to "mush" an anvil point into a near solidified pellet if I take too long between wetting and seating.

Yes, I see that. I get the anvils in fast enough that I don't have issues. The longest time between wetting and anvil seating can't be more than 20 seconds or so.


Part of why I am doing the above is for a specific need. I want to be able to make primers that work well for later use. Yes I am doing wet priming and this meets my needs for winter shooting and for summer shooting for loads where I have ample cases (38 Sp & 9mm). I also plan to use "on the self" reloaded primers for regularly used loads where my case supply is limited and I need to reload in the summer when I have less spare time.

This makes a lot of sense. I should probably do something similar. I don't really have anywhere to store finished primers other than brass which I have a lot of.


When I wet the primer, there is enough room in the cup above the well packed powder for about one drop of liquid. I like having the space about half full of liquid when I stop adding liquid. If I do it right it is almost all soaked in before I set anvils. The standard guidance is "a little too much is better than a little not enough". I do not get it right every time and sometimes if is closer to full when I stop adding liquid. Frequently I am dropping an anvil into a small pool of liquid.

Got it. Yes, having too much water just means it takes longer to dry.

[Castloader]

When I wet prime cases that I want to load the next day, I am currently doing 2 hours at 120 °F, followed by ambient overnight, and at least another hour at 120 °F on the second day.

When I wet prime cases for use more than a day after priming, I only do the initial 2 hour bake.

Have you tried doing a test after just the two hours at 120°? I'd think that was enough.

[Castloader]

I have previously said that sorting by type is good and sorting by type and brand is better.

The above was my best guess at the time. Today I played a lot trying to get happy with some amount of mixing brands for cups and anvils. Very disappointing results. Castloader has made due with mixing because it is what he had. When he tries matched components, I expect he will find things easier and he will get better performance (few if any lost anvils, few if any need for second strikes, etc).

Bad combinations make "in plate" anvil seating by hand more problematic and less consistent.

I have changed my recommendation. Yes some brands may allow good results with some mixing. Do not bet on it until you have proven the specific mix you are interested in. My current best guess guidance is:



Mixing type and brands will be a royal PITA and will adversely affect primer performance.

All one type with mixed brands is likely to be a PITA and may adversely affect primer performance.

Zero mixing may be something of a PITA up front, but is worth it.

If you are just thinking about reloading primers, and keep everything well sorted there is a good chance you will find that you will not use some of what saved. I used a lot of Fiocchi SPPs in recent years. Anvil removal is too difficult for me to bother with this brand of SPP. I also used a bunch of similar looking S&B primers that I consider great for reloading. Even if I had kept all my SPP separate from SRP, I would have lots of these two plus some other similar looking primers from range pickup brass. All in all I would end up tossing the good SPP with the bad because they were mixed.

I sorted out all the CCI anvils from my bag of mixed anvils. I probably have nearly a pound of just anvils, so that says something. It took me all day off and on, but I was quarantining so I had not much else to do. I suspect that my big stash of cups is mostly CCI, Federal and WIN. I haven't bought any other SPP's, and most of what I'm depriming is my own reloads. I'm sure I have a few other brands from range pickup but these three make up more than 95% or so of my stash. The Win are not nickle, so they're easy to separate. The Federal hate losing their anvils, so most of them are still wearing the anvils, leaving mostly a bunch of CCI's. With the cups and anvils largely sorted, I'm now basically remaking CCI 500's.

I concur with the guidance above for anyone who is watching this thread. Even if you know you'll never make your own, you can probably sell or trade them to someone who will.

As an aside, does anybody know what primers are used in LC 5.56 brass?

[jonp]

I've ground much aluminum foil in a cheap coffee grinder and it seems to work fine

[P Flados]

This seems pretty sketchy. What if some of it starts to set up in the bottle? Humidity could be enough. I suppose if you use it fairly quickly...but this seems like a potential danger point. You'd only have to be wrong once. Also, I'm not understanding why you think a glass jar is more dangerous than plastic. It has lower friction and lower static concerns.

The guidance I have seen at MeWe and elswhere indicates it is ok to mix it in bulk. The Lead Nitrate and AL are is denser than the other stuff and could potentially settle to the bottom in the right conditions. However, my stuff is so "fluffy" I do not see this happening the way I am using it.

Also, this is not long term storage. I am in my winter "holed up in the house - lets spend time in the reload room" mode. In the past week I have probably assembled around 1500 primers. I have 7 sleeves on the shelf and a similar amount in loaded ammo and primed cases. I have also sized / de-primed close to 3/4 of a gallon of 9mm and a gallon of 38 Sp. I have sorted the primers from all of the above. I have improved my anvil removal tooling and processed probably 1K cups and anvils (with indentation removal).

My concern with EPH 25 storage is getting ignition inside of a container that can build up enough pressure for the NC to transition from "slow burn" mode to "burn with a bang" mode. If a glass container were to "go bang", the glass fragments could be an issue. The pill bottle I am using is of a similar material to what we get factory gunpowder powder in.

[P Flados]

Here is a photo of my anvil removal stuff.

A strip of 1/8" AL with twenty 0.177" holes. This both holds the primer while prying out the anvil and it helps me screen out "mushroom" cups that are too big to work in my 50 hole reloading plate.

The piece of wood underneath the AL allows me to lift up the AL plate with cups and dump them into a bucket leaving the anvils in the tray. When all of the primers are done, I dump the tray full of anvils into a second bucket.

The "pry bar" is made from a paper clip. A piece of similar sized music wire would work better, but paper clips are cheap and I have plenty.

294702

[P Flados]

Primers for 5.56 are made to a specific drawing that you can find out on the web. CCI 41 are made to this drawing. They do have thicker cups and shorter anvils.

For now, I do not plan to use reloaded primers for any loads above say 20,000 psi. Pierced primers are more likely with reloads. Too many pierced primers on high pressure rounds can lead to firing pin damage.

Truth be told, damage to an AR-15 firing pin would not be a big deal. They are probably the cheapest / easiest to fix firing pins in the world. Eventually I may go to reloaded primers for some AR-15 loads, but right now I want to focus on my "crisis" primers, SPP (I have just over one brick of factory S&B SPP).

[P Flados]

I sorted out all the CCI anvils from my bag of mixed anvils.

... I suspect that my big stash of cups is mostly CCI, Federal and WIN.


CCI anvils will slip into just about any cup without problems. They tend to fall out pretty easy so I am only using them for "wet priming" applications.

Your post explains a lot as far as your success with mixed. When I used a more random "mixed bag" of anvils, some of them have a "foot" that can catch on a square edged cup and just refuse to seat (RP and Winchester for example). From what I can tell, the brands with this style of anvil have cups with a distinct bevel on the ID of the cup entrance to prevent the foot from catching.

As noted in a previous post, I have been working on a bunch of primers freshly harvested from 9mm and 38 Sp cases. Even though it is a PITA, I have sorted / collected enough S&B (my reloads) and Winchester (range pickup of once fired white box ammo) primers for processing. I found the S&B to be great for reloading, easy anvil removal, easy seating, no lost anvils. I probably have over a gallon more of 38 Sp with S&B primers.

A couple of years ago I stopped reloading 38 Sp for our 357 guns. I just loaded 357 cases down to 38 SP power. I have been using a couple of hundred 357 cases for this purpose (mandating regular reloading sessions all year long). As a result of the above, I had several gallons of 38 Sp that I bagged up and put away. Primer reloading has resulted in a change in my approach. I plan to start using 38 SP cases again and "wet prime" (and possibly load) a bunch during the winter. I expect to load close to 2K per year of 38 Sp. Another load that will get similar treatment is 9mm.

[P Flados]

Have you tried doing a test after just the two hours at 120°? I'd think that was enough.

I probably should, but it has not been a priority yet.

For baking wet primed brass, my priority is to get rid of any free moisture quickly before it can cause problems. I use the plastic trays that come with factory ammo boxes to stand the cases with the mouth up. What I need is to get a few more 45 ACP trays. This will allow getting more 38 Sp cases in the oven per bake.

[Castloader]

I do the same with the ammo trays. I have dozens of them to facilitate various needs. The last two batches of 9mm were wet primed and dried in the Instant Pot in ammo trays, mouth up with a spacer under the trays to keep the heat from melting or warping the plastic. I’ve found that the heating element will make the bottom a bit hotter than the ambient temp.

1500 primers made! You’re doing well. I’m not retired and having to play Mom and Dad while my wife recovers from the Vid. It really shortens the available time I’ve got.

One factor for me is that I have a lot of brass. I can afford to focus on wet priming and just bag everything. I understand your needs to dry prime. I also consolidated my casting and loading over the last couple years. All my handguns are either 9mm or .38/.357. It simplifies a lot. I have been considering a 10mm though… I used to have .40, so loading for 10mm would not require anything but a brass purchase.

Understood with the plastic pill bottle. I recommend you thoroughly clean it in between batches.

I can remove anvils using nothing but a pair of forceps quite quickly. That’s an interesting anvil removing setup you’ve got.

I should probably do a short video on Rumble of how I pop anvils.

[mvintx]

I spent a few hours today, wearing a magnifier and using tweezers to segregate my collection of anvils. A good many of them appear to be CCI with the concentric circles on the inside. Most are hard to identify but I was able to separate them into 2 distinctive groups. One of them I believe to be Wolf SPPs I bought several years ago. Some of the other unidentifiable anvils look the same from the top but when you turn them over, they're different. Some have a sharp point where they contact the cup, others have a more rounded point.

This was not fun but I'm hoping it will help with consistency once I start reloading.

[P Flados]

I recommend not bothering to try to sort mixed primers.

Instead, sort old / pickup brass you have or can gather. Then decap in batches with the same headstamp. Inspect and sort primers from these batches based on primer color and anvil appearance.

Over the past few days I have tossed a bunch of fully processed cups and anvils into the recycle bin. I became convinced that my "I hope this is good enough" effort at sorting primers was a huge waste of time. I then dug out all of my stash of my old reloads and range pickup brass and started over with spent primer harvesting and processing.

The above may seem drastic, but after getting over the joy of getting some reasonable performance, I started thinking ahead. There is a danger to having ammo that is not real close to 100% first strike ignition. I am more willing to "experiment" than most handloaders and have experience with less than desired ignition reliability. The big danger is getting into the habit of assuming "it was just a primer that did not go off". Each and every time you pull the trigger on a live round and you are not sure the bullet left the gun, it is time to stop, take a break and wait a moment, open the action and then confirm the barrel is not obstructed. In the past, I have had a couple of near misses of pulling the trigger on a live round with a bullet stuck in the barrel. In my first trip to the range with reloaded primers, I had one squib with the boolit stuck in the barrel. It was easy for me to catch as the range was near empty that day, but that is not always the case. Even if you try to be good a checking your barrel, you can become distracted at the wrong moment and make a big mistake.

After sorting a bunch of range pickup brass by headstamp, I did some test runs with primer processing to identify those worth the effort to gather and process. My list of "favorite headstamps" is: CBC, PMC, S&B and Win. My list of "ok headstamps" is CCI, Fed and RP. I am not going to bother with any other brands.

Below is a photo of today's S&B anvil extraction just before I finished that step. Note the "new and improved" pry bar made of much stronger steel. I am at about 80% through indentation removal on this batch.

294805

[Castloader]

What is your criteria for “good” vs “ok”? Anvil removal? Cup thickness/sensitivity?

I’ve also had a couple squibs with, I think the second batch, same one that was giving me hangfires. Also a few that seemed to clear the barrel, but were going so slow, they barely made it to the target. Shooting with these reloaded primers definitely requires even more attention to detail and situational awareness than normal shooting. Since switching to EPH25, my results have improved drastically in terms of eliminating those issues. Now when they go bang, they do it with attitude. I like to fire one or two from each batch in an empty case. The big flash tells me we’re in a good place. My only remaining issue is the revolver. I think I’ll pop the original spring back in and see if that fixes the re-strike problem.

[mvintx]

I recommend not bothering to try to sort mixed primers.

Instead, sort old / pickup brass you have or can gather. Then decap in batches with the same headstamp. Inspect and sort primers from these batches based on primer color and anvil appearance.


I think this is excellent advice. The amount of time I'm spending trying to identify and segregate anvils is a P.I.A. The CCI's are easily identifiable but the others require close inspection to determine their make. Better to harvest the known makes to start with rather than picking through the two or three gallons of accumulated primers from past years. I've picked up so much range brass over the years, plus SRPs and LRPs are also contained in the mix.

Also good of you to mention watching out for squibs. They say confession is good for the soul. I had one this summer in a 10mm cast load. I've always heard that with a squib, you'll at least hear something. All I heard was the sound of the hammer dropping. Nothing else. Since I was having feed issues with this load I assumed that somehow the empty case did not eject. So I popped out the empty case, loaded another round and fired. There was a bit more recoil than normal but I suspected nothing until I cleaned the barrel and saw a distinctive 'ring' in the bore and could feel a bulge in the barrel. That was a $265 mistake. I fit a new barrel and was test firing with the same load and the same thing happened. No noise, no nothing. Sticking a wooden dowel into the barrel I could feel the bullet stuck just ahead of the chamber.

I later weighed that batch of 200 rounds that I had loaded last February when it was 18 degrees outside. I reload in my barn with a diesel forced air heater and for some reason I cannot explain, I found 5 additional cartridges in that batch without powder. The saying goes, "Fool me once and shame on you". You know the rest.

As soon as my coffee grinder shows up, I'm in business.

[P Flados]

What is your criteria for “good” vs “ok”? Anvil removal? Cup thickness/sensitivity?


There are several brands that are just to much of a PITA for anvil removal.

I did not rate the following as favorites for the following reasons:


CCI is not rated better due to having issues with anvils falling out.

Fed is known as having "soft cups". They seem to have more than typical mushrooming even in 380s, 38s, etc. I will probably run all Fed through the sizer just to keep things smooth going into and coming out of the loading plate.

RP anvils have distinct feet that make seating anvils a little more difficult.


Once I get all of this into more of a routine, it is likely that I will size all cups just to make things easier when putting cups into the loading plate. If and when I make that change, Fed becomes another favorite.

[P Flados]

Today was a busy day with lots of loading, ASBB coating, sizing and casting (probably 30 lbs of 105s and 120s for 38Sp & 9mm). I did assemble and "wet prime" 200 9mm cases using S&B cups & anvils. I also "dry primed" 500 38Sp cases. I had 2 out of the 500 go off. Not a terrible rate and I was in the garage, wearing hearing protection and a leather glove.

[mvintx]

I will probably run all Fed through the sizer just to keep things smooth going into and coming out of the loading plate.


I have noticed fired primer cups are sometimes a loose fit. Some I can push out with very little effort using a small punch. I don't see the point in sizing any of them. My concern is a loose primer backing out of it's pocket while in the magazine.

I'm using the NOE .173 sizer but I think it's a bit too small...would like to open it up to .175 or so but am not sure it's worth the effort.

23 degrees outside here today. I think once I feed the cows I'll spend the rest of the day inside, unless I really get bored and fire up the heater in the barn to do something out there. Wife won't let me smoke a cigar in the house. What nerve, eh?

[dverna]

Today was a busy day with lots of loading, ASBB coating, sizing and casting (probably 30 lbs of 105s and 120s for 38Sp & 9mm). I did assemble and "wet prime" 200 9mm cases using S&B cups & anvils. I also "dry primed" 500 38Sp cases. I had 2 out of the 500 go off. Not a terrible rate and I was in the garage, wearing hearing protection and a leather glove.

Safety glasses or googles my friend!!! I won't trust commercial primers never mind remanufactured ones.

[P Flados]

Safety glasses or googles my friend!!! I won't trust commercial primers never mind remanufactured ones.

I wear glasses full time. I know my glasses with polycarbonate lenses are not rated, but I have "tested" them in the past and feel they provide adequate protection. If anyone is thinking of working with reloaded primers, I would consider it foolish to not have some form of eye protection.

[P Flados]

For resizing primer cups, I opened up the ID of my die to the point to where many pass through with little or no sizing. I am not trying for uniform, just trying to prevent oversized.

I did get to the range today. I tried one of my early batches of primers that I was worried might have some SRP cups in my 327 SP-101. I know this gun is unreliable with SRPs and sure enough about 3 out of 50 or so required multiple strikes to go off. On the other hand my 38 SP LCRx has fired a bunch of these same primers with 100% first strike ignition. Of no surprise, my TC Contender is also at 100%.

Other than the "expected" problem above, I probably shot 200 with no other issues.

I also talked to the range staff about this project and gathering brass to be returned to them after harvesting primers. I also gave them some money to cover brass that I might want to keep (I recently priced scrap brass at $2 per lb and I weighed a not quite full 1 quart ziplock right at 2 lbs). I came home with some more mixed brass. I think I will start slowly working through most all of the common headstamps one at a time and try to be more systematic for evaluating brands.

The only two brands I have eliminated so far are really GFL (a.k.a Fiocchi) and Aguila.

[mvintx]

For resizing primer cups, I opened up the ID of my die to the point to where many pass through with little or no sizing. I am not trying for uniform, just trying to prevent oversized.



How did you open up your die? 400 grit emery cloth wrapped around a dowel of some kind?

[P Flados]

I have some silicon carbide grit. I mixed up some 220 grit & oil and coated a couple of dozen "scrap" brass finish cups and pushed them through the die. Then I made a snug fit wood dowel, coated it in 600 grit & oil and used a cordless drill to polish the ID. It now sizes cups to 0.1757" or so.

I am trying to use my aluminum anvil removal strip to identify which cups need sizing. It was made with a D Reamer and has holes right at 0.177". I used the same reamer on my actual loading plate, but it seems that the plastic did not cut to full diameter. I need to make a soft steel D Reamer with a slight taper so that I can use depth of insertion to control how much more material is removed. I want to open up the holes just enough such that a 0.177" cup slides through easily.

I wanted to do the work on the loading plate today, but at 32 °F my nose would have been dripping and getting all over my tooling.

[P Flados]

I have created a new thread to go along with this one. I did a pic heavy walk through of me reloading 50 SPP.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?437558-Primer-Reloading-Pics-and-Tips&p=5340740#post5340740

This thread is getting long, and I though a separate thread only for pics and tips would be nice.

And I did get the holes on my loading plate opened up to 0.178". It made using the plate much less tricky.

[Castloader]

I have noticed fired primer cups are sometimes a loose fit. Some I can push out with very little effort using a small punch. I don't see the point in sizing any of them. My concern is a loose primer backing out of it's pocket while in the magazine.

Isn’t this a primer pocket problem? If not, the primer cup can be expanded with a simple custom punch of the correct size and performed during dimple removal.

[mvintx]

Isn’t this a primer pocket problem? If not, the primer cup can be expanded with a simple custom punch of the correct size and performed during dimple removal.

Yeah, there's a good chance of that. Some of my 9mm brass has been fired many times and in several guns, but it's not like they're loaded to anywhere near maximum levels. But the brass could be getting work-hardened. The primer pockets on the .223 brass I run through my service rifle will get loose after 5 or 6 firings and then they go into the scrap bin. I haven't notice that problem with any of my pistol calibers.

The loose primer was sized .173" so I probably need to open up the die like pflados has done to his. Yeah, an oversized punch might might work but I'd like to keep this operation to as few steps as possible. I'm already spending a lot of time on this new hobby and I haven't reloaded a single primer yet. Maybe this week.

I've already given up on sorting the many primers that I've collected over the years...another suggestion from pflados. Better to stick with the known makes from my reloaded ammo. The last 10,000 small pistol loads that I've cranked out have been all CCI.

[Castloader]

In the interest of providing our members with the best and latest knowledge and for those who come here to peruse this topic in the months and years to come, the Mewe group has about 1,000 members who do nothing but work on primer reloading. All the folks that deserve the real credit are over there. I am glad to have labored here on behalf of the CastBoolits family, and as far as boolit casting goes, I'll be here for a long time. As for making primers, the Mewe group is the best place for the most updated techniques, sources of supply and general support.

https://mewe.com/group/5ffcbdeadbcef71f84e867ef

God bless America

[Vettepilot]

Hey, help please?

Just getting started. Working on EPH20. I keep getting an error message when I try to join the "mewe" group, so I'm asking my question here.

I ordered and received my Sodium Hypophosphite because I wanted to see if that was going to be possible now. I've got it, so now to purchase everything else. I need to know how much Lead Nitrate to order to correspond proportionately to my 400 grams of the Sodium Hypo??

??

Thanks!
Vettepilot

[P Flados]

Lead Nitrate (LN) was much cheaper and easier when I started late last year. Are you planning a Lab Alley order?

https://www.laballey.com/products/lead-nitrate-crystal-purified?variant=7219012304955

To be close to balanced, you would want to get 1,000 grams.

As long as you do not have any major oops events and your labs yields are close to typical, 1,000 grams of LN will allow you to reload over 60,000 small primers or around 40,000 large primers.

For many folks, the above probably exceeds the total number they will ever reload.

[Vettepilot]

Thanks so much for your answer! Yeah, that's WAY more than I need! I accidentally got a double order of Sodium Hypophosphite, so I figured I would keep it proportionate, but that's nuts! I did not realize how many a quantity will make.

Thanks again,
Vettepilot

[Dieselhorses]

Just checking in, let's keep thread alive! Had much success with reloading these little boogers. (Also on MeWe PR). Someone remind me of the cup thicknesses for SRP and SPP. .020+ for SRP? .017+/- for SPP?

[P Flados]

I am currently firing newly reloaded primers in some guns and ammo loaded ~ 1 year ago in the LCRx.

In my Lo Point, LCRx 38 SP and TC Contender I am getting a real high percent with a good prompt ignition. Rounds requiring second strike or rounds with less than normal ignition probably number a half dozen (and nothing in recent months).

Today I had 4 primers not go off when struck in a Contender. Factory Ginex SRPs in 7 TCU. I may not have seated the primers good due to less than adequate primer crimp removal from 223/5.56 brass.

So lately my reloads :p have performed better than factory :groner:

[mdntranger50]

This is something I have been wanting to try to do. Thanks to everyone for all the great info in this thread!

[deces]

Oh, this is a great thread, I will definitely be following this one.

[Cane_man]

Does using the coffee grinder on the NC mean that the mortar and pestle step with glass/nc is not now needed when mixing EPH20?

[P Flados]

If you individually process your NC and glass appropriately, simple mixing will work fine. That is how I do my EPH-20.

Getting NC to a good mesh size is one of the details where there has not really been a convergence on what are the "best methods".

[Cane_man]

If you individually process your NC and glass appropriately, simple mixing will work fine. That is how I do my EPH-20.

Getting NC to a good mesh size is one of the details where there has not really been a convergence on what are the "best methods".

Thank you! Makes it easier for sure. I'm going to get a cheap coffee grinder with some W231 and see how that goes.

If I make some Aluminum fines will they store long term, or do they oxidize over time rendering them not usable?

[Dieselhorses]

Thank you! Makes it easier for sure. I'm going to get a cheap coffee grinder with some W231 and see how that goes.

If I make some Aluminum fines will they store long term, or do they oxidize over time rendering them not usable?

Keep fines in air tight container and should be fine. I’ve used fines a year old and works good.


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[2TM101]

I'm surprised there is no source for new caps & anvils (with no chemicals) to do this with. For percussion caps I make them myself, but there is no anvil involved and as they fit over, not in, the tolerances are way looser than they are for centerfire primers. In short, I would make primers from new components, but reloading used ones seems to be too much work, at least for me.