Seeking advice for casting and loading

[Buck Thompson]

I’m looking to get into casting and loading my own bullets. I have no previous experience and was hoping some of you could let me know what I should do first so I don’t get in over my head. There is a lot of source material, so I’m not sure if one book is better than another. My plan is to cast and load 7.62x25 bullets for my Tokarev TT-33 pistol. I noticed that there is no mold specific for that bullet, so I don’t know if an alternative exists, or if I’m out of luck. I have other bullets that I want to cast if that one doesn’t work out, like 7.62x54r and 9mm luger. I’d appreciate any advice, thanks.

[David2011]

Hi Buck,

Welcome to Castboolits!

The best place to start is with Glen Fryxell’s treatise on the subject.
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?110213-From-Ingot-to-Target-A-Cast-Bullet-Guide-for-Handgunners

Read that and you’ll have a great start.

[StuBach]

Second Ingot to Target read that David2011 posted that’s how many get started.

Biggest word of advise, remember what your working with when you start casting, this stuff is dangerous so wear proper face protection. My first session almost ended with me losing an eye for my lack of experience but luck was on my side, don’t count on that and take precautions.

I haven’t loaded any of the calibers you mention but from what I’ve read on here I suspect all of them might be on the harder side to reliably load. I know 9mm is considered by many to be tough to dial in cast bullets for. May I suggest starting with something low pressure that’s proven to be easier for others, like 38/357 or 45?

Also, if you add what state you’re in to your profile (or post on this thread) there might be a friendly caster who will let you come by and learn from them before you have to invest in all the equipment and what not. I know several times I’ve read of members here offering to “tutor” people on the art.

[Land Owner]

The "latest" book that covers most cast "boolits" (Castboolits nomenclature as opposed to copper solid or jacketed "bullets") is the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th Edition.

Expand your knowledge base exponentially. Read. Read. And Read some more. There are MANY cast boolit starter threads here. We're available for help when you get stuck, and we recognize that EVERYTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE when you are getting started. Help yourself to the smorgasbord of questions and responses already posted here.

[ohen cepel]

To make it a bit less daunting/$$$ I think I would get the reloading side of things set up and going well. Then, look at casting once you know you enjoy reloading and are going to stick with it.

[Sasquatch-1]

To make it a bit less daunting/$$$ I think I would get the reloading side of things set up and going well. Then, look at casting once you know you enjoy reloading and are going to stick with it.

+1 on this. And while you are doing this find a source for lead and start stock piling. With a 115 grain bullet you will only get about 60 bullets per pound of lead.

The biggest caution is "DO NOT PUT LEAD THAT COULD HAVE MOISTURE TRAPPED IN IT INTO A POT THAT HAS ALREADY MELTED LEAD!!!" I learned this the hard way about 45 years ago.

[243winxb]

Need to find free WW or Scrap lead to make casting worth while. Or just buy cast- https://www.missouribullet.com/

[contender1]

First off Buck,, "Welcome!"

That done,, you have come to the right place to gain a wealth of knowledge. And I echo the comments about the Lyman book, as well as the Glen Fryxell read. Both are excellent.

And of course,, SAFETY first as noted above.

The comment about getting comfortable with reloading is also a concern. If you are just starting out in reloading,, I would start with that & gain a bit of experience before delving into melting metals for bullets. If you are already a reloader,, then for most of us here,, casting is the logical thing.

It's not hard,,, but at the same time it can be frustrating. Basically, you are melting lead, tin & antimony to get a hard enough metal to make a bullet.
A pot to melt stuff,, a heat source, a mold, as well as a few small things like a wooden mallet, skimming/straining spoon, and you can make bullets.
The Lyman book walks through the basics easily.

BUT,, there are several things that need to happen to make sure the bullets you cast work well in YOUR gun,, ! That's where things get frustrating.
Improper sized bullets, a good lube or powder coating, (PCing is easy!) bullet hardness,, velocities, all play into the mix to get satisfaction.

Decades ago,, I jumped in,, w/o any experience,, or a mentor, much less the internet. Sometimes my alloy & bullets turned out good,, and other times,, well, it was easier to throw them back in the pot & try again. Then along came leading in my barrels,, not to mention,, so-so accuracy.
Frustrating to say the least.
Finally,, putting aside my macho attitude,, I began to study, buy a few books, and learned to "slug my bore," and "size to match," and lastly,, make a proper alloy. Suddenly,, the leading went away,, molds filled out much better,, and my accuracy & pleasure both increased.
Fast forward several decades,, and this new process called "powder coating" was discovered & shared by a few of my fellow casting buddies. Older,, wiser, & willing to learn,, I studied it a bit,, and found it was NOT hard,, inexpensive to set up, and actually improved a few things. (Less smoke, slightly higher velocities, and CLEANER in my guns.)

Just yesterday,, I was deer hunting,, and took a whitetail with a handgun, an I was using my cast bullets,, powder coated & all. One shot, and fresh meat for supper last night.

[Cast10]

All good info above….I’d suggest work one step at a time. Master one, then move on.
1. Study up and begin acquiring reloading equipment and components. Get a good set of manuals, say Hornady or RCBS (or both!) reloading books. They’ll guide you through the process. Really read to understand how to select powders, including pressures on the firearms you will be using. Maybe cast some jacketed bullets first to get some confidence before moving ahead with casting.
2. Study and begin acquiring smelting/casting equipment. Tons of info here, just search. I read a lot here and as a newby myself have had excellent outcome.
3. Always be safe!!!! Read three times before you do it! Understand what you are doing and why, otherwise, go back and read some more, or then ASK QUESTIONS.

Best of luck to ya~

[daloper]

Welcome to the madness. One thing you might want to do is to put in your state in your location. You might get someone local that will help give you some face to face mentoring.

[para45lda]

Welcome!!
Everyone has given great advice and the only thing I'll add is finding a good mentor (local if possible).
Notice I said good. If they don't have at least 2 reloading manuals keep looking. Of course now days there is tons of info available online as well. Where are you?

Good luck

[dverna]

I will echo the advice above and STRONGLY suggest reloading to start with. If you do not like reloading, casting is a next to useless skill to have.

I would start reloading for your 9mm with jacketed bullets as jacketed bullets are not very expensive. After loading about 1-2000 you will get a feel if this hobby is for you. Many folks start with great expectations and find it boring. BTW, I do not enjoy any aspect of reloading or casting so for me it is not a hobby. I shoot quite a bit and the cost savings are worth the "work"...and for me it is work. There are 100's on here who do it FUN!!!

You need to decide which group you fit into. If you are low volume shooter, your needs will be different and if it is FUN it makes a huge difference. For example, I would never load pistol rounds on a single stage press but if you are having fun it does not matter much.

Once you decide reloading is for you (figure about $200-300 to get set up for that) then you can decide if you want to upgrade to a progressive press for pistol ammunition and "work" less or invest in casting to make less expensive bullets (figure about $300 to get set up to cast, lube and size).

Unlike another poster mentioned, I find I save money even using commercial alloy and do not use a lot of "free" or salvaged material. But you can ignore all that until you decide if casting is something you want to do.

[wv109323]

I would get the Lyman book. It has the most bang for the buck as a reference. Most all reloading companies have you tube videos that you can watch.
I would get set up for reloading before starting casting. Jacketed bullets are easier to start with.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

If I were not a wheel gun junkie, I probably would not bother to cast. I would definitely learn to reload though. The Rock Chucker master reloading kit is a good Way to start reloading. They go on sale often too. There are guys on this site who ladle pour their boolits and that is probably the cheapest way to start casting. A camp stove, a cast iron pot, a ladle and a mold. But you will of course need a reloading setup to use those boolits you make.

[ulav8r]

All good info above….I’d suggest work one step at a time. Master one, then move on.
1. Study up and begin acquiring reloading equipment and components. Get a good set of manuals, say Hornady or RCBS (or both!) reloading books. They’ll guide you through the process. Really read to understand how to select powders, including pressures on the firearms you will be using. Maybe cast some jacketed bullets first to get some confidence before moving ahead with casting.
2. Study and begin acquiring smelting/casting equipment. Tons of info here, just search. I read a lot here and as a newby myself have had excellent outcome.
3. Always be safe!!!! Read three times before you do it! Understand what you are doing and why, otherwise, go back and read some more, or then ASK QUESTIONS.

Best of luck to ya~
Cast that is underlined should read load. But you could load commercially cast bullets instead of jacketed to learn if you want to go further and cast your own.

[Mal Paso]

I second the Rock Chucker kit but I like the one with a mechanical scale and uniflow powder dispenser.
Lyman cast bullet 3 is in my opinion better than 4 and free online.

[poppy42]

First off welcome! Were do I start? I would definitely get a reloading manual first. Lyman 50th is the latest I believe. It pretty much covers the basics. I would also recommend the latest Lee manual. The Lyman is great but it tend to be specific as to why certain jacketed bullet and the limited data it has on Cast Boolets. I recommend the lead manual to new reloaders because it’s more generic in that it’ll give you low data for 124 grain jacketed bullet or 125 grain lead round nose bullet where it’s not specifically calling out a manufacturer or in the case of Cast Boolets a specific bullet cast from a specific mold. I hope that makes sense I did my mind but you never know when you write it out. I would not depend on low data that you get off the Internet. Do you know the old saying it must be true I read it on the Internet. As others have suggested I would start out loading for jacketed bullets and or store-bought lead bullets to see whether or not you’re going to enjoy it before you invest a lot of money. I have no idea what kind of budget you have soda recommend a specific brand it’s kind a hard to do when you don’t have an idea how much money someone wants to spend. You are fine people have their own specific likes and dislikes as to whether or not our CBS is good or Lyman is good or Dylan is good or Lee is good. It’s kind of like what kind of cars do you like Chevys or Fords. It’s pretty much a personal preference. I will tell you that for someone starting out there is nothing wrong with Lee presses and dies. And they tend to be quite a bit less expensive than other brands. They are CBS rock chucker is a great press and you can do just about anything on it. However you can probably get set up with a Lee press,dies for one caliber, a scale, maybe even a powder measure For less then in RCBS rock chucker costs by itself. And for someone that’s anonymous and just starting out I don’t recommend turret presses or progressive presses. Start out with a single stage press. There’s a lot of things that can go wrong in the reloading process until you’re comfortable with the process. I strongly recommend against using terret presses or progressive presses. Learn the process step by step. You kind a need to learn to walk before you can run that’s my opinion. Do lots of reading and ask questions here on the forum. This forum has a plethora of well experienced and knowledgeable reloaders that are willing to share with someone just starting out. Hopefully some of what I posted here will be helpful to you. In closing I just like to say three things to you. Good luck. Have fun. And above all else be safe.

[brewer12345]

You have gotten lots of good advice. I will add that Arsenal and/or Accurate molds should be able to supply a Tokarev specific mold.

[Sasquatch-1]

I like the one with a mechanical scale and uniflow powder dispenser.


I agree with this 100%. My RCBS Uniflo is over 45 years old and still throws a very consistent charges. I have loaded 1000's of handgun rounds on single stage presses. You just have to learn to do it it stages.

Start with a tricycle and then move up to a two wheeler. If you decide you want a progressive press you will not have a problem finding a home for a good single stage press.

[Dusty Bannister]

You will regret not keeping the single stage press. There are so many times you might need to do a single step in the process and you will never be able to replace your old press at a decent price. Push through bullet size use for one of any number of processes.

[Big Tom]

Now that you opened the can of worms... :-) Here is a thread about casting for 7.62x25: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?360153-Anyone-cast-for-7-62x25-Tokerev

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I will echo the advice above and STRONGLY suggest reloading to start with. If you do not like reloading, casting is a next to useless skill to have.

>>>SNIP
I think this is the best advice you got so far.

While Lyman's castbullet handbook 4th Ed is an excellent reloading manual for cast boolits, You don't need it yet. Just look for a good reloading manual, I do prefer the ones put out by Lyman (they are currently at the 50th edition, I believe)...but if you come across any of the older ones, they will do just fine...But there are a ton of other ones, put up by equipment manufacturers as well as bullet manufacturers.

Also, keep reading here on castboolits...lots of info here.

[canyon-ghost]

I'd recommend: https://www.starlinebrass.com/762x25-tokarev-brass

For starters, this is the easiest brass to load. It's also the premium handgun brass available.

Read the manuals but, collect the components to start reloading. Yes, I have Lyman books, RCBS equipment like the guys say. Never had an "ammo shortage " yet. I have 3 9mms, 41 mag, and 45 Colt. You get the idea.

Gather your cases, primers, powder and bullets. It's quite the mail order adventure in some respects.

Good Luck,
Ron

[MT Gianni]

Post your location and see if someone is close enough to act as a mentor.

[smoked turkey]

good evening Buck. welcome to the best web site on the big inner web. Gee, I've looked at the great responses to your initial post, and they are all good. so I won't say any more since I'd just be repeating what has been said. I wish you the best of success in this great hobby.

[racepres]

First off welcome! Were do I start? I would definitely get a reloading manual first. Lyman 50th is the latest I believe. It pretty much covers the basics. I would also recommend the latest Lee manual. The Lyman is great but it tend to be specific as to why certain jacketed bullet and the limited data it has on Cast Boolets. I recommend the lead manual to new reloaders because it’s more generic in that it’ll give you low data for 124 grain jacketed bullet or 125 grain lead round nose bullet where it’s not specifically calling out a manufacturer or in the case of Cast Boolets a specific bullet cast from a specific mold. I hope that makes sense I did my mind but you never know when you write it out. I would not depend on low data that you get off the Internet. Do you know the old saying it must be true I read it on the Internet. As others have suggested I would start out loading for jacketed bullets and or store-bought lead bullets to see whether or not you’re going to enjoy it before you invest a lot of money. I have no idea what kind of budget you have soda recommend a specific brand it’s kind a hard to do when you don’t have an idea how much money someone wants to spend. You are fine people have their own specific likes and dislikes as to whether or not our CBS is good or Lyman is good or Dylan is good or Lee is good. It’s kind of like what kind of cars do you like Chevys or Fords. It’s pretty much a personal preference. I will tell you that for someone starting out there is nothing wrong with Lee presses and dies. And they tend to be quite a bit less expensive than other brands. They are CBS rock chucker is a great press and you can do just about anything on it. However you can probably get set up with a Lee press,dies for one caliber, a scale, maybe even a powder measure For less then in RCBS rock chucker costs by itself. And for someone that’s anonymous and just starting out I don’t recommend turret presses or progressive presses. Start out with a single stage press. There’s a lot of things that can go wrong in the reloading process until you’re comfortable with the process. I strongly recommend against using terret presses or progressive presses. Learn the process step by step. You kind a need to learn to walk before you can run that’s my opinion. Do lots of reading and ask questions here on the forum. This forum has a plethora of well experienced and knowledgeable reloaders that are willing to share with someone just starting out. Hopefully some of what I posted here will be helpful to you. In closing I just like to say three things to you. Good luck. Have fun. And above all else be safe.

I second this!!!

[Mal Paso]

This is what I bought ...... twice.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1023389781?pid=345426

[FISH4BUGS]

Lots of good advice here.
I have been casting and reloading for over 40 years and have only blown up 2 guns in all those years. :)
SAFETY AND PAYING ATTENTION IS PARAMOUNT!
Read up on casting and read up on reloading. YouTube videos abound.
Start with a single stage press. Buy a used RCBS Rock Chucker.
Start reloading ONLY. Casting can wait until you master reloading. That will take you a while. Start with all jacketed bullets until you get the hang of reloading. THEN buy cast lead and see if you like loading lead bullets.
If you cast you will suddenly discover that you can load for a lot less money, which means you load more which means you shoot more which means you cast more, which means you load more......etc. etc.
The you discover that you want to cast for all your guns. So you get more moulds. Then you need reloading dies of course.
Then productivity gets to be more important. So you get a Star Sizer.
Because you are now shooting more, now you need to load more. A single stage might get you 50 an hour if you are lucky.
You spring for a Dillon 550 progressive press that can put out 400 per hour at a leisurely pace.....remember that safety and attention thing.
Then you start being a brass and lead scrounger.
Casting forces you to learn about the metallurgy of lead. You get so desperate for lead that you start mining the berm at your local range.
Are you SURE you want to do this?
I would say absolutely do it. It is a great hobby.
It has become a way for me to relax and do something very productive. My other half calls it "man knitting".

[Buck Thompson]

Thanks everyone, I appreciate all the advice! I have a better idea of where to start now. So casting will have to wait, and I’ll get some books and a reloading kit to start out. Does anyone have advice regarding brand or specific kit? I was think of a Lee single stage kit because it was affordable, but I saw several posts mentioning the Rock Chucker kit. Is it better to get one over the other? Or should I avoid kits entirely and piece everything together myself?

Also, thanks to all the people that mentioned Tokarev casting and books for casting. I’m bookmarking a lot of info so I can reference it in the future if reloading goes well.

Edit: I’ve also added my location!

[contender1]

Ok, so you are new to reloading & all. LOTS of good advice in these 2 pages.
There's a saying; "Buy once,, cry once." If you are trying to be frugal,, then hunt for the Rockchucker and other things on the used market. You can save money if you shop around & all. BUT,, you can also do good by getting a"kit" to get started,, as it'll have much of the stuff you need.
I've been handloading since the mid 1970's,, and I still have my first Rockchucker press,,, and several die sets from back then. While Lee is good,, overall,, you'll find the RCBS Rockchucker will outlast you AND retain value better.
And reloading books are a NECESSITY!

Basic necessities;
2-3 GOOD reloading manuals
Press,
Dies w/ shellholder (Carbide if possible,)
scales,
powder measure
Loading tray
PATIENCE! :D

Once you get comfortable reloading,, and such,,,, then you can start acquiring the stuff necessary to start casting to start another level of enjoyment.

[Sasquatch-1]

Basic necessities;
2-3 GOOD reloading manuals
Press,
Dies w/ shellholder (Carbide if possible,)
scales,
powder measure
Loading tray
PATIENCE! :D



You failed to mention one other thing that is needed and that is a good dose of common sense. Think about what you are doing while you are doing it.

Other things that you need to know and don't have to buy:
If you smoke don't while doing any of the reloading procedures that involve gun powder or lead and don't get distracted. Tell the wife and kids that you are reloading and not to disturb you. TURN OFF YOUR PHONE. Distractions can cause squibs and double charges.

[FISH4BUGS]

Distractions can cause squibs and double charges.

It is easy to do. Both guns I blew up were double charged 9mm.
How?
They turned out to be military cases and the primer wouldn't seat properly.
Rather than clear the press, i absent mindedly yanked the military case from station 1 (Dillon 550) and just replaced it with a new case.
Station 2 got another charge.
BOOM! The 3914 bent the slide out and totaled the gun.
The S&W 76 was built like a tank and only blew the face of the bolt off.
Now, if ANYTHING goes wrong, I clear the press before fixing it.
Being safe and always paying attention is rule #1!!!!!!!

[David2011]

When I started buying reloading equipment my first press was a used RCBS Jr. 2 which I still have. It’s adequate for most reloading tasks. Later I got a Rock Chucker and it’s my primary single stage press. If I had to start over I would most likely get the Lee Classic Cast because of its spent primer handling. Any of the above, used or new, will serve you well.

Look at the currently available Rock Chucker kit for ideas for the rest of the early hardware needs.

[gwpercle]

Start with a kit . Get the best you can afford but don't break the bank ... as you gain experience you upgrade the things you feel are lacking .
Most of us started out with Lee Classic Loader ( Whack-A-Mole) kit ... the hammering gets old .
There is nothing wrong with Lee Equiptment , it's affordable and will get the job done .
If you don't have a place to mount a press ... the Lee Hand Press or better yet the Buchanan Hand Press , made and sold by a fellow member , www.buchananprecisionmachine.com , are wonderful for loading sans hammer and bench mounted press .
A lot of my "stuff" came from Lee and there is only one item I'm not crazy about ... their new hand priming tool with the folding tray .

I do all my handgun and 30-30 rifle with a Hand Press ... a Lee Hand Press Kit , set of dies and a powder scale (balance beam is my preference) and you have all the tools . A powder measure can come later ... I still scoop a lot of charges with a powder scoop ...easier to do .
Gary

[myg30]

I saved a lot of money buying good used reloading equipment on this forum and few others.
Used presses at a cost savings you can’t go wrong.
Hand tools and cartridge prep stuff mostly used again good savings.
As far as tumbler and brass cleaning equipment you can clean in a bucket with dish soap and lemi- shine or find a used or cheep harbor freight tumbler for brass cleaning, lots of guys wet to wet tumble and sell off their vibrating tumblers cheep.

Good luck, be safe and NEVER RUSH when reloading !!

Mike

[Three44s]

You are on the right track going to handloading first, then go to casting second.

A good single stage press is the foundation to start with.

If you can score a good price on a starter kit with a RCBS Rock Chucker, that’s great, but pieces here and there is good so long as you get a good deal.

I like the Classic Cast series of presses that Lee now produce as well.

If you go with a kit I would go RCBS or Hornady due to their scales and powder measures.

Separately, the Lee Classic Cast does a better job with spent primers. Then go RCBS Uniflow for a measure.

Scale wise I like mechanical better than electronic. If you can score one, the RCBS 510 or 1010 are held in high regard. I have both but then fell into the grand RCBS 304 dial a grain, color me a snob!

Case trimmers are many, I like the Lyman Universal with a carbide cutter. My varmint rounds get the Wilson trimmer for their final run.

The CZ 52 and the 7.62 x 25mm is not the easiest critter to start with but not truly difficult. They give you great exercise chasing cases. The Wolf extra power spring tamed my pistol down some in that regard.

A big welcome to “Boolits”

Three44s

[GL49]

It is easy to do. Both guns I blew up were double charged 9mm.
How?
They turned out to be military cases and the primer wouldn't seat properly.
Rather than clear the press, i absent mindedly yanked the military case from station 1 (Dillon 550) and just replaced it with a new case.
Station 2 got another charge.
BOOM! The 3914 bent the slide out and totaled the gun.
The S&W 76 was built like a tank and only blew the face of the bolt off.
Now, if ANYTHING goes wrong, I clear the press before fixing it.
Being safe and always paying attention is rule #1!!!!!!!

Best advice ever given for those with progressive presses.
Clear the press.

[BrassMagnet]

Read this section of the forum and you might find some really good ideas:

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?176-Helping-Hands

[BrassMagnet]

Start with this thread and then go to page one of Helping Hands:
Or you could read a few more of Cag's StudentoftheBoolit threads for a quick overview of the new guy learning procedure and then on to Helping Hands page one.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?210303-Student-of-the-Boolit&highlight=

You'll have to copy and paste this link as it doesn't automatically highlight as a link. Never mind. The link does work!

[Three44s]

I was remiss in my earlier post!

The very first step is to acquire and read a collection of reloading manuals!

Safety first!

Three44s

[gwpercle]

If you are going to get into casting ...be sure and get a couple Lyman Manuals .
The Lyman 50th Edition Reloading Handbook has both Jacketed and cast info in it and the first 118 pages are a wealth of general knowledge .
The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition covers just cast boolits and a must have for the cast reloader and the first 96 pages are a wealth of cast boolit knowledge .

Between these two books you can learn a lot about reloading and casting .
My other two reference manuals are the Hornady and Speer Manual ...
Between these 4 manuals you can teach yourself to reload & cast boolits and find data for most any cartridge that isn't too obsolete .
These manuals were what I used to teach myself back in the mid-60's ...in the days BC (Before Computers) .
Load Safe
Gary

[BrassMagnet]

Buck has not been back since 12/2/21 at 1:15 AM. He may be way too busy or he may have lost interest.

I hope it is merely “way too busy.” I know everyone here means well and wants everyone to start on the right path. However, I characterize this approach as “get a bachelor degree in ammo manufacturing techniques before having any fun.”

I have a different approach which I believe is more productive. It is read an illustrated thread or two and then ask some questions. Then find someone to coach by doing it under instruction with their equipment. The “get a bachelor degree in ammo manufacturing techniques can then come after some fun while having fun.”

I have many years in the classroom as a student and years in the classroom as a technical instructor. I have attended formal training to become an instructor twice where the theory of learning is taught. I have even been known read books on teaching. Most people learn “how to” very poorly from reading. I forget the exact percentage reported, but I suspect it is less than five percent. Virtually everyone learns well from “hands on” training.

So let’s go with the best! Let’s get their interest with a “Show and Tell” thread. Let’s expand on their interest and knowledge with live training where possible while demonstrating safety. Let’s show them ways to find available tooling and supplies rather than tell them they must buy a big kit which might not even be available. Let’s also skip the read two to four books before even considering starting.

Now I really hope I haven’t stirred up a hornet’s nest!

[BrassMagnet]

Does anybody have contact info for Buck Thompson?