.41 Mag SWC, no blood

[LeadHead72]

After finally finding a very nice, used 41 Magnum in a Ruger Redhawk a few years ago I decided to take up handgun hunting to add a bit of a challenge during firearm deer season. Since 2 years ago I have taken 3 deer and a coyote with it (and my son has taken 1 deer with it) and I am very happy with the gun. However, I am using a 215 grain commercial cast SWC and am getting no blood trails. They're loaded with 19.5gr of H-110 which isn't super hot but it isn't exactly a slouch, either. Of 3 deer taken this weekend the only blood that we found was two drops from my buck which made it about 70 yards with a hole through his heart. What's the deal?

[sixshot]

Is the bullet exiting? I'm guessing all the blood is staying inside. Many commercial cast bullets are very hard & some have a small meplat so you don't get much of an exit wound. You can do maybe 3 things here, shoot the deer with a bullet that is a bit softer, has a wider meplat & perhaps a bit faster although I think your velocity is fine.
I've taken maybe 35-40 deer in 4 different states, 2 elk, 3-4 antelope, bears & a couple of African plains game with the 41 magnum but I never use 215 gr bullets, nothing lighter than the 230 gr Keith from a Saeco mold or a 250 gr from an LBT mold. I've also taken feral hogs & Javelina with the same set up, never had any problem getting blood trails but usually I can walk right up to the animal. I always try to shoot my bullets as soft as I can & still maintain accuracy, no more.
My 250 gr WFN 41 bullet has a wider meplat than the famous Keith 44 bullet. Gemsbok, South Africa, August 2021 with a Freedom Arms 41 magnum & a 250 WFN, never took a step.
https://i.imgur.com/RWHgcB4h.jpg
Dick

[quilbilly]

You didn't mention whether the shots on the deer passed all the way through. I have found in my terminal ballistics tests that commercial cast boolits (and especially plated) were too hard for my needs and performed a bit better when melted down and alloyed with about 50% pure. The wound channels were larger and expansion was significant with the softer alloy. In my most recent tests with a 357 cal. 190 gr. SWC, the boolit expanded to .7".

[LeadHead72]

All were pass through except for the buck, yet his wound was lower on the body than the others so a blood trail would have seemed more likely.

[LeadHead72]

Gotta say I am pleased with the minimal meat loss due to bruising with this gun, especially compared to a 12 gauge slug.

[missionary5155]

Howdy
First Congratulations for smacking and tracking down that bean eater.

I have used a Dan Wesson 41 Mag 8" with at least a 240 grain and most always with a 265FNGC cast of 50-50 (range scrap / wheel weight) chugging along at 1150 fps. It expands well to .50 and never have recovered a slug.
I have no concern about leading (very little with one shot) . Very accurate from our DW. Most corn crunchers are leaking a goodly amount real easy to follow when this slug rips through the heart and lungs.

But we also bust both shoulders with the same load if possible as at 71 I tire of having to follow deer through the river bottoms.
I have not yet had to follow any deer very far that took a caliber .50 hit through the shoulders.
A high lung hit will fill the lungs with blood and you will not see much until it falls over even with an exit.

[Thumbcocker]

How big is the meplate? Pics?

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[Smoke4320]

I would suggest going up in weight and way down in bullet softness . Commercial cast tend to run on the very hard side and you usually will not get much expansion

[MT Gianni]

If you are not yet casting, look for a commercial caster who can get softer bullets for you.

[LeadHead72]

If you are not yet casting, look for a commercial caster who can get softer bullets for you.

I've been accumulating everything I need to cast my own but haven't actually taken the plunge and dropped any lead yet. This is the one I've been using.

[taco650]

I've been accumulating everything I need to cast my own but haven't actually taken the plunge and dropped any lead yet. This is the one I've been using.

Take the plunge! Be warned though, it can be a slippery slope and next thing you know you'll never want to buy another bullet and picking up every wheelweight you find in parking lots LOL! At least that's been my experience.
Congrats on the deer also.

[Jim22]

I've been accumulating everything I need to cast my own but haven't actually taken the plunge and dropped any lead yet. This is the one I've been using.

That boolit has a nice wide meplat. But if it is very hard it will do little damage. The size of the flat point (meplat) will not help it expand if it is too hard. Also if it's light in weight. The load you are using sounds like it is below maximum. That means the boolit is not moving very fast. That will also work to prevent expansion.

You have elicited some good comments. I agree with a heavier, softer boolit. Push it so it doesn't leave lead in the barrel. When you cast your own you can tailor that. Good boolit lube will halp to prevent bore leading. So will powder coating the boolits.

I would like to see expansion in the animal but complete pass through for a good blood trail. That means some casting, loading, and testing but that's the fun isn't it?

Jim

[sixshot]

Powder coated bullets allows you to go with a soft bullet but also keep the velocity up without leading. I call it a poor man's gas check. Also if you're doing a lot of shooting it's better to go with a flat base bullet rather than the bevel base. Your meplat looks fine but I think the hardness is causing you some grief. With powder coating I try to stay around 8-10 BHN if the accuracy stays with me, if not I nudge it up just a bit, no more than I have to.
I actually used powder coated cast HP's on 3 animals in Africa & got amazing penetration on all 3, with complete penetration on my Kudu although it was a 45 caliber HP. Let the heavy bullets do the work.

Dick

[OFFSHORE]

I shoot a 10mm Auto (just a step below the 41 mag) with a Accurate 40-200C boolit in the 1270+ fps range with great success. My alloy is 30:1 (50/50 COWW & soft lead + 1 lb. pewter) with a BHN of 13/15 according to my Lee Hardness Tester. I am mainly a tree saddle hunter, so I'm shooting in a down ward angle all the time, and on deer and hogs 75 yds. or less, I get a total pass-thru shots 95% of the time. With the bullet exiting low on the off side I tend to get very good blood trails and usually see the animal die/drop within sight. I think with a softer bullet as mentioned above, and a low exit channel you would experience better blood trials. . .just my $.02 on that.

My favorite hunting handguns are the Ruger Super Blackhawk Hunter models. I have the 44 Mag and 45 LC, I've been trying to get the 41 Mag to complete my collection. . .they are hard to come by and very pricey!!! I really like the .41 caliber and owned a 41 Supermag for a while and harvested A LOT of critters with it. . .then there was a club member who had more $money$ then sense who just HAD TO HAVE IT!!! so, I sold it.

Start casting your own boolits, you'll really enjoy it and tailor loads that your firearms digest nicely. As mentioned above. . .it is damn addicting!!! I have MANY molds, always looking at new ones, and a stock pile of lead and alloying material, I just keep tinkering until I find the perfect boolit for each gun. That gives me an excuse to go buy a new one and tinker some more. They need to start having meetings for people like me/us. . .I'm an addict, I'll admit!!! Deer hunting (hunting of any sort, really) and bullet crafting are my sicknesses/vices - but I can think of a lot worse!!! Hang on to that 41 Mag and master it, it's a great cartridge. Good luck and happy hunting.

[M-Tecs]

Like others stated the bullet is most likely on the hard side and is it is producing a small hole that is easily plugged with fat.

[Ernest]

with soft skinned animals like deer soft gas checked Hollow points are your friend ! I don't have as much hand gun experience as some of the people on here but my experience has been quicker kills and larger blood trails with the above combination.

[Winger Ed.]

At handgun speeds, I'd guess the boolit goes in by stretching the hide & tissue,
getting inside, then closing back up, almost closing the hole and keeping the big pink cloud inside.

Sort of like pushing a hole in, or through rubber without too much trauma,
rather than pushing everything ahead of it like a big shock wave does.

[HD.375]

well, if it were me, with XXX hundred commercials, i would painstakingly drill out shallow HPs.... in fact im possibly going to do this with my 375 Winchester hard casts.....

tell me why not

[Shopdog]

Winger post #17,IME has a lot to do with it. Think RN vs SWC.... now think,that commercial SWC vs home cast. The sharper/crisper you can keep all foward edges the better. This heavily favors home cast.

I shoot varmints with cast rigs at starting JB velocity/pressure. A smaller,but sharper meplat beats larger,more rounded edges everytime in how far the chunks fly. A HP is another approach. You can then play with the internal shape of the hole,or even divet. If you go with a hole,try finding the right sized Torx bit and swage it down in there. Not necessarily recommending this,just sayin you have options to explore.

Part of the problem is gravity. One reason hunting from a tree stand(which I'm sorta not "into") is that your exit hole is like a drain,or leak hole. There's just no way the blood is gonna remain in the chest cavity.... it's running out the bttm.

[badguybuster]

I have been tempted to that with some Montana Bulletworks hard cast I picked up.

[LeadHead72]

Thanks for all of the great input, guys. Bullet hardness is most likely the culprit here and it sounds like I really need to fire up the melting pot and just DO it.
Along with a lot of lead and other necessary (and maybe unnecessary) casting equipment, over the last couple of years I have accumulated 20 to 30 molds including some good ones in 41. Lyman 410459, Lyman 41032, RCBS 41-210-SWC,
RCBS 41-210-KT and an NEI #411-190 (200gr? full wadcutter). Yes, I tend to overkill but prefer to have options. Powder coating has indeed interested me but is one of those things that I've sort of put off learning until I get the hang of the casting process itself.

[Dinny]

well, if it were me, with XXX hundred commercials, i would painstakingly drill out shallow HPs.... in fact im possibly going to do this with my 375 Winchester hard casts.....

tell me why not

They are very unlikely to expand at that hardness and you're just wasting time drilling the HP.

Sixshot about summed it all up.

ETA: Until you start casting yourself here's something to consider: https://www.gtbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=47


Thanks, Dinny

[quilbilly]

Keep an eye on local metal recyclers, particularly ones within a couple miles of hospitals. X-ray rooms are regularly revamped and the lead sheeting on the walls is replaced. That lead is reliably 99%+ pure and is a treasure for doing your own alloys. It is usually very clean and produces little dross when turning into ingots. I have been known to pay a little premium for that "good stuff" even though it is usually rolled into 40-70# sheets.

[derek45]

XTP

[ takes cover ]

[Texas by God]

XTP

[ takes cover ]That's funny[emoji16]but they do work.

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[BunkTheory]

whoever posted that bullet company...

what would be better, one of those 170 grain keith swc or a 160 grain hollow point at same velocity in a 6 inch pitstol

[Larry Gibson]

Keep an eye on local metal recyclers, particularly ones within a couple miles of hospitals. X-ray rooms are regularly revamped and the lead sheeting on the walls is replaced. That lead is reliably 99%+ pure and is a treasure for doing your own alloys. It is usually very clean and produces little dross when turning into ingots. I have been known to pay a little premium for that "good stuff" even though it is usually rolled into 40-70# sheets.

Leadhead72

Any "hard cast" bullet (ternary alloy of lead/antimony/tin), even a HP'd one will most likely not expand much nor give any real improvement given handgun velocities. Even a softer ternary alloy is not likely to five any better results. I've been there with the 41 Magnum, along with other handgun cartridges, since the mid '70s. What you want is a binary (lead/tin) alloy. Elemer Keith used various such binary alloys and settled on a 16-1 lead-tin alloy for the 44 Magnum. I've found that alloy to be excellent for use in magnum level handgun cartridges with velocities in the 1200 - 1500 fps range. When HP'd that alloy gives excellent expansion, weight retention and penetration (usually through and through) on deer with much better terminal effect.

As quilbilly mentions keep an eye out at recyclers for the x-ray room lead. With that you can then add the tin for an excellent binary alloy. Better still are the little lead "pigs" used to store the isotope in. the pigs and there lids I've got are a binary lead tin alloy very close to 16-1. They make excellent handgun 357/41/44 magnum bullets.

With the 16-1 binary alloy I use my RCBS 41-210-SWC mould to cast my 41 Magnum hunting bullets. I size at .410 and lube with BAC or other 50/50 lube. After loading I HP the nose to to 3/16" deep with the Forster HP tool then "adjust" the HP cavity with a 1/8" counter sink tool. Loaded over a top end load of Bluedot or 2400 pushing them to 1450 fps out of my 7 1/2" barreled Ruger Bisley they have proved to be very deadly on coyote and deer giving much better terminal effect than any other cast or jacketed bullet I've used.

[Jim22]

well, if it were me, with XXX hundred commercials, i would painstakingly drill out shallow HPs.... in fact im possibly going to do this with my 375 Winchester hard casts.....

tell me why not

No argument from me. In fact I'm gonna try it as well. Thinking about using a center drill so the hollow point has a bevel.

Jim

[JohnH]

Some years ago I shot a whitetail doe with a 20 gauge slug at about 60 yards. Shot took the bottom of her heart out. She didn't bleed a drop from where I shot her to where she fell. I'm convinced her heart stopped on being shot and there was no blood pressure to push any blood out. I know that sounds crazy, but I've trailed up plenty enough heart shot deer in the ensuing years that i'm convinced that's what happened. She had a .60 caliber hole in and out both sides and through the bottom of her heart, it's the only explanation I've ever been able to come up with.

[GLynn41]

the bullet you are using will act more like a lwn as the shoulder will not cut .. nose base is too wide so not much cutting from shoulder the noe mold will and they can be hp'd lyman 410459 will also cut on impact do not know if that helps bleeding but it wont hurt GT bullets are good it seems only have 220 s
not a kieth but i have lwngc with a 33 meplat that bleeds deer and one pig good it is a sold. ACWW can begin to expand at about an impact of 1150+ per veral Smith
cant beat a .41 on deer

[megasupermagnum]

As others have said, expansion is the key. Hard bullets obviously work, and save meat, but they don't make big holes, and they don't kill that fast.

I have yet to use my 41 on an animal, but I have no doubt it would perform every bit as well as the 357 or 44. Ive been carrying my model 57 all week, but unfortunately was never able to get within even rifle range of an elk. The bullet loaded is an Arsenal 41-220RF gas checked, cast of 20:1 alloy. I'm shooting them with 11 grains 800x. If you want some bullets, let me know. I have no hollow point 41s.

[Good Cheer]

My take is to use a heavy bore riding design blunt nosed bullet (the blunter the better) that minimizes the amount of powder space taken up by lead. As if to say there's a lot of space between the front of the brass and the front of the cylinder, so use it.

[tward]

If you want to stick to commercial cast bullets I’ve had great luck with GT bullets. They have several designs in solid or hp and they cast them from softer alloys. Nice folks to do business with and great looking and performing boolits. Tim

[GLynn41]

if you get into casting you can cast soft points-- very easily -- very soft lead nose and harder body- I have a small pot for the soft -- the mold does not matter make you dipperout of .32 -9 m case and cast hot and you can make them plenty to hunt with normal hard bases - and yes they will expand

[quilbilly]

Last week I dropped by my favorite recycler on the way to the VA. There in the lead bin were some small rolls of very old roofing lead that were also very dirty with old roofing goop. A quick look on the "cleaner side" showed it to be very soft, bendable, and fingernail scratchable. I bought 33# for $33, took it home, and turned it into ingots the next day outdoors (the roofing goop smoke is nasty). It is 99% pure which I call blue lead, the color on the surface when heated. If you keep your eyes open at recyclers after learning to spot the clues, you can occasionally score well.

[LeadHead72]

Last week I dropped by my favorite recycler on the way to the VA. There in the lead bin were some small rolls of very old roofing lead that were also very dirty with old roofing goop. A quick look on the "cleaner side" showed it to be very soft, bendable, and fingernail scratchable. I bought 33# for $33, took it home, and turned it into ingots the next day outdoors (the roofing goop smoke is nasty). It is 99% pure which I call blue lead, the color on the surface when heated. If you keep your eyes open at recyclers after learning to spot the clues, you can occasionally score well.

Yes, I have accumulated some of the same myself. I have everything needed to get started casting, now I just need to DO it.