Pid

[dearslayer]

Anyone know of a source for a fully assembled PID in Canada? I contemplated ordering all the parts from Amazon.ca to assemble one but the total price would be in the neighborhood of $200.00 . I've seen the Youtube videos of Johnny's reloading bench from 2016 and it's a great source, but at that price of $200 CDN I'm thinking if one can be purchased fully assemble for even a little more then it might be worth it for a beginner caster.

[kevin c]

Moderator Hatch sells very nice assembled units, including the probes. I don’t know if he ships out of the US, though.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?277-HATCH-Automation

[TjB101]

You don’t need all the items that Johnny referenced. I used wire nuts vs a wire strip and hard wired the temp probe. I did buy the project box but you could really use any box you have floating around the house. I only used one 10A fuse but you could skip that too. Used an old 10 foot extension cord cut in half for the unit. Wiring wasn’t that hard. So, really just 3 primary items.

Inkbird Solid State Relay 40DA DC SSR Black Heat Sink for PID Thermostat Temperature Controller https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MCWO35P/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tau_a4a4EbP2V29WE

F/C PID Temperature Controller, AGPtEK Dual Display Digital Programmable Temperature Control TA4-SSR Solid State Relay with 2 Alarms https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005NGL4KG/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tau_w4a4Eb15DVSPV

K Type Thermistor Temperature Sensor Probe Temperature Controller,100mm / 4" Long Probe Thermocouple Probe Diameter : 5mm / 0.2"MT-205-100mm5x100x2 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B079BQQJKN/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tau_V4a4EbRXN445W

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211124/8d1b989925b4dbdd906d3c06a9c45757.jpg

[armoredman]

OK, ignorance on full display - what's a PID?

[dearslayer]

You don’t need all the items that Johnny referenced. I used wire nuts vs a wire strip and hard wired the temp probe. I did buy the project box but you could really use any box you have floating around the house. I only used one 10A fuse but you could skip that too. Used an old 10 foot extension cord cut in half for the unit. Wiring wasn’t that hard. So, really just 3 primary items.

Inkbird Solid State Relay 40DA DC SSR Black Heat Sink for PID Thermostat Temperature Controller https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MCWO35P/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tau_a4a4EbP2V29WE

F/C PID Temperature Controller, AGPtEK Dual Display Digital Programmable Temperature Control TA4-SSR Solid State Relay with 2 Alarms https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005NGL4KG/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tau_w4a4Eb15DVSPV

K Type Thermistor Temperature Sensor Probe Temperature Controller,100mm / 4" Long Probe Thermocouple Probe Diameter : 5mm / 0.2"MT-205-100mm5x100x2 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B079BQQJKN/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tau_V4a4EbRXN445W

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211124/8d1b989925b4dbdd906d3c06a9c45757.jpg


Yeah originally I had all his referenced items in my Amazon Cart but have since eliminated a few. I'm just sitting on the fence about ordering the absolute necessary parts and I probably will soon but was just kind of waiting to see if I could get an already assembled unit here in Canada but from what I can tell it isn't something that popular as such.

[dearslayer]

OK, ignorance on full display - what's a PID?

I'm sure someone more experienced can provide the necessary info but basically it's an external unit to control the temperature on the lead pot to maintain consistency. Hope that kinda makes sense.

[armoredman]

OK. I have just been using the same bare bones 10 pound Lee for years...

[TjB101]

I'm sure someone more experienced can provide the necessary info but basically it's an external unit to control the temperature on the lead pot to maintain consistency. Hope that kinda makes sense.

Exactly. It controls the pot and cycles power to maintain temperature. Really helpful knowing when pot is ready to go after adding a few cold ingots. I set mine @ 710 and it overshoots to about 720 every once in a while. Without it I noticed my pot getting overly hot when I was down to about 1/3 left in the pot. For me it was a really fun learning project as well.

[remy3424]

You don’t need all the items that Johnny referenced. I used wire nuts vs a wire strip and hard wired the temp probe. I did buy the project box but you could really use any box you have floating around the house. I only used one 10A fuse but you could skip that too. Used an old 10 foot extension cord cut in half for the unit. Wiring wasn’t that hard. So, really just 3 primary items.

Inkbird Solid State Relay 40DA DC SSR Black Heat Sink for PID Thermostat Temperature Controller https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MCWO35P/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tau_a4a4EbP2V29WE

F/C PID Temperature Controller, AGPtEK Dual Display Digital Programmable Temperature Control TA4-SSR Solid State Relay with 2 Alarms https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005NGL4KG/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tau_w4a4Eb15DVSPV

K Type Thermistor Temperature Sensor Probe Temperature Controller,100mm / 4" Long Probe Thermocouple Probe Diameter : 5mm / 0.2"MT-205-100mm5x100x2 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B079BQQJKN/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tau_V4a4EbRXN445W

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211124/8d1b989925b4dbdd906d3c06a9c45757.jpg

The pic makes it look like that concoction is inside the house. Your table saw makes a good base.

[MrWolf]

You can use a power supply from an old computer if you have one laying around as the case. That is what I did.

[oley55]

You can use a power supply from an old computer if you have one laying around as the case. That is what I did.

An good option IF you think an internal fan is needed. I assembled a PID several years ago without a power supply and internal fan. A few months ago I added a second PID to my box and still do not need a power supply and internal fan. I suppose it comes down to your design and layout, but attaching the heatsink on the outside eliminates the need for fan/power supply.

[GregLaROCHE]

I haven’t bought one yet, but when I do, it will probably be from Hatch. Also, I will order the model that has two controllers built in, so I can control my hot plate for keeping molds at temperature. Something to consider if you buy or make one.

[TjB101]

The pic makes it look like that concoction is inside the house. Your table saw makes a good base.

Attached garage right off basement. Table saw really does make a sturdy base and gives me a convenient excuse not to do any major woodworking projects. Vent hose is attached to a board I clamp into window and wife gave me some old under cabinet lights to use.

PID was a two hour project to cut the housing and wire it up. First attempt didn’t work as I had the wires backward from the probe to PID. (Or their directions were wrong) … then about another 45 min to have the PID ‘learn’ the pot heat up timing.

[TjB101]

An good option IF you think an internal fan is needed. I assembled a PID several years ago without a power supply and internal fan. A few months ago I added a second PID to my box and still do not need a power supply and internal fan. I suppose it comes down to your design and layout, but attaching the heatsink on the outside eliminates the need for fan/power supply.

I’ve notice none of the components really get hot running for 2 or 3 hours.

[TjB101]

You can use a power supply from an old computer if you have one laying around as the case. That is what I did.

Love to see a pic of that. Will be making another one down the road for my PC oven.

[MrWolf]

Love to see a pic of that. Will be making another one down the road for my PC oven.

Made this probably eight or so years ago. Pardon the mess. Been cleaning out areas from the move and haven't gotten to organizing yet.292159
292160

[TjB101]

Made this probably eight or so years ago. Pardon the mess. Been cleaning out areas from the move and haven't gotten to organizing yet.292159
292160

Nice … looks like a clean setup. How do support the probe on the pot side so it’s not sitting on the bottom.

[dave 45-90]

292165Pot and power coat controller. Parts off fleabay

[MrWolf]

Nice … looks like a clean setup. How do support the probe on the pot side so it’s not sitting on the bottom.

Been a long time since casting due to injury, divorce, and move, but I remember bending a coat hanger. Hopefully, I will be in a position this spring to have everything set up and good to go. Been a long journey.

[nicovanj]

I got everything from China (the 9th province of South Africa) for $15 to build a PID. So build it.

[dearslayer]

Got most of the parts referenced by Johnny's reloading bench to assemble this PID but still waiting on Amazon for thermal coupler socket and I still have to get a couple clamp type connectors for the rear where the power comes in and a power switch as well. I may have ordered the wrong controller solid state module because it sits just about 1/4" too proud , not allowing the cover to sit all the way down. It's all in the details and the OCD in me will be itching to fix it somehow. Hoping the module will work just the same. Still has to be all wired up but it's a start. 292301292302292303292304

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[megasupermagnum]

Do you mean the solid state relay sits too high? If you aren't too OCD, cut the base off that heat sink, and self tap screw it from the backside. If you are, you just need to find a slightly shorter heat sink.

[dearslayer]

Do you mean the solid state relay sits too high? If you aren't too OCD, cut the base off that heat sink, and self tap screw it from the backside. If you are, you just need to find a slightly shorter heat sink.

Yes the relay sits too high. I could cut/grind the bottom of the heat sink and drill it to accept the screws I suppose. If I cut it so the bottom plate of the sink sits completely flat on the base of the box it will probably clear. It's just about the same dimension.

[dearslayer]

Photo attached 292305

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[dearslayer]

Couldn't rest until it fit proper. Damn OCD! 292307292308292309292310

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[TjB101]

Got most of the parts referenced by Johnny's reloading bench to assemble this PID but still waiting on Amazon for thermal coupler socket and I still have to get a couple clamp type connectors for the rear where the power comes in and a power switch as well. I may have ordered the wrong controller solid state module because it sits just about 1/4" too proud , not allowing the cover to sit all the way down. It's all in the details and the OCD in me will be itching to fix it somehow. Hoping the module will work just the same. Still has to be all wired up but it's a start. 292301292302292303292304

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I know you’ve spent a lot of time so far but I would recommend adding all the parts to one part of the box. The other being the lid. Wires from the PID to heatsink will need to be extra long so you can take the lid off to troubleshoot.

The box part you added the PID to I used as the base. Feet attached to bottom and all the components stuffed in there all wired up.

[dave 45-90]

Put a 40 amp scr on mine. No heat sink. Just thermal mastic. Stays pretty much at room temp. 1/16 din RTD controller. Autotune should be part of the configuration

[dearslayer]

I know you’ve spent a lot of time so far but I would recommend adding all the parts to one part of the box. The other being the lid. Wires from the PID to heatsink will need to be extra long so you can take the lid off to troubleshoot.

The box part you added the PID to I used as the base. Feet attached to bottom and all the components stuffed in there all wired up.

I'll have to take another look at it to see what I can do. I thought about the same thing after the fact regarding wiring it up and such, but by then it was too late. Everything in the one box would definitely simplify things and I may have a hard time with it if I don't switch it up somehow.

[dearslayer]

Wondering if a 16 gauge extension cord rated for 13 amps will suffice for this unit or does it have to be a 14 gauge rated for 15 amps?

[TjB101]

Wondering if a 16 gauge extension cord rated for 13 amps will suffice for this unit or does it have to be a 14 gauge rated for 15 amps?

Should be … primary fuse is a 10amp, right?

[dearslayer]

Yes I believe so.

[dearslayer]

I know you’ve spent a lot of time so far but I would recommend adding all the parts to one part of the box. The other being the lid. Wires from the PID to heatsink will need to be extra long so you can take the lid off to troubleshoot.

The box part you added the PID to I used as the base. Feet attached to bottom and all the components stuffed in there all wired up.I decided to follow your advise and install all the components into the one half of the box to simplify the wiring as suggested. Good call. Thanks. 292386292387

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[TjB101]

I decided to follow your advise and install all the components into the one half of the box to simplify the wiring as suggested. Good call. Thanks. 292386292387

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PIA, I’m sure, but better in the long run. Some nice stickers on the new cover and your good.

[dearslayer]

PIA, I’m sure, but better in the long run. Some nice stickers on the new cover and your good.

Funny you suggest that because I was actually thinking the same thing.

[gwpercle]

OK, ignorance on full display - what's a PID?

I'm not sure ...something electronic you have to program .
I've been casting for over 50 years without one ... so I must not need one that badly ...
... at this late stage in my casting game I'll just keep on doing what I been doing ...it works just fine .
Why fix what isn't broke ...keeping things simple makes me happy .
Gary

[David2011]

I’ve been thinking about getting a PID for the luberisizers. Temp control there is more difficult than with my RCBS Pro Melt.

Like others, I’ve managed for 40 years without a PID on the furnace. That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t like one, though. After the sizer I might try one on the furnace.

[TjB101]

Funny you suggest that because I was actually thinking the same thing.

Did you get it fired up and run the Autotune?

[dearslayer]

No..not yet. I actually started to wire it up but realized I still have to cut the hole at the front for the TC socket which I'm still waiting on to be delivered sometime between Dec 16th and Jan 6th!!! I may just go ahead and try to finish wiring it this week. I did notice that the PID that I have is a little different from the one in the video from Johnny's reloading Bench. Mine only has 5 screws connections down each side at the back of the PID and Johnny's has 6 down each side. Not sure if there is any difference in the connection because of it. Will post photos shortly.

[dearslayer]

In Johnny's video he has the 2 TC wires at these connections so I put mine the same until confirmed otherwise. 292686292687

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[HATCH]

Moderator Hatch sells very nice assembled units, including the probes. I don’t know if he ships out of the US, though.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?277-HATCH-Automation

I do ship worldwide but typically its not cost effective as shipping is very costly outside the states.


On thermocouple hook up.

You have two wires. Typically a they have a red and a blue connector on them and they also have the same color stripes on them as well.
On the PID you will have a - sign and a + sign under thermocouple connection.

The red connector goes to the + sign and the blue goes to the - sign.
Don't worry about this too much as it will not damage the unit if hooked up incorrectly.
What till happen is that it will read the temp backwards.
So typically you turn on the power to the PID.
The temp will read ambient. Grab the probe with your hand and hold it for a few mins.
The temp should go up slowly. If it goes down then most likely you have the wires hooked up backwards.

On fuses, to be totally honest I stopped using them in my builds.
I know this will get a lot of responses so I will explain.
The device you are controlling typically plugs into a standard 120v outlet.
The majority of those are controlled by a 15 amp circuit breaker in your electrical panel.
Having a 15 amp fuse is redundant and not needed.

The typical casting furnace (lee 4-20) pulls around 7 amps and it isn't fused so if you wanted to a 10 amp fuse would be a good safe measure but as I mentioned no needed.


The units I build have the following parts (for reference)

Golander 1/32 PID
Golander 25 amp SSR
8 ft or 10 ft extension cord
Car Alarm toggle switch - I only switch the PID power not the entire load.
150mm x 105mm x 55mm Enclosure
100mm K thermocouple probe with 3m cable

I don't use a heatsink because the SSR is mounted on a metal enclosure. I haven't had any issues.
I rate the units for 15 amps even though the SSR is 25.

Anyone that builds their own PID only needs to switch the power to the PID controller itself.
I do not recommend switching the entire load (pot or oven).
If the PID doesn't have power then the SSR will not have power either.
Which means no output.
In the crazy event that the SSR fails closed (in other words power is stuck on) then you can just unplug it.
I have been dealing with controls for over 25 years and have NEVER seen a SSR get stock on. I have seen plenty that either didn't pass voltage or passed a reduce amount of voltage.

If anyone has any build questions please send me a message and I will help you.

[BattleRife]

...realized I still have to cut the hole at the front for the TC socket which I'm still waiting on to be delivered sometime between Dec 16th and Jan 6th!!!

Are you talking about one of these?
https://i.postimg.cc/RhK20cfJ/MPJ-K-dimensions.jpg

I can mail you one, I have dozens. You'll have it a lot sooner than Jan 6th. And you can see the dimensions if you want to get started cutting a hole.

[dearslayer]

Are you talking about one of these?
https://i.postimg.cc/RhK20cfJ/MPJ-K-dimensions.jpg

I can mail you one, I have dozens. You'll have it a lot sooner than Jan 6th. And you can see the dimensions if you want to get started cutting a hole.

Yes that's exactly what I'm waiting on.

[dearslayer]

I do ship worldwide but typically its not cost effective as shipping is very costly outside the states.


On thermocouple hook up.

You have two wires. Typically a they have a red and a blue connector on them and they also have the same color stripes on them as well.
On the PID you will have a - sign and a + sign under thermocouple connection.

The red connector goes to the + sign and the blue goes to the - sign.
Don't worry about this too much as it will not damage the unit if hooked up incorrectly.
What till happen is that it will read the temp backwards.
So typically you turn on the power to the PID.
The temp will read ambient. Grab the probe with your hand and hold it for a few mins.
The temp should go up slowly. If it goes down then most likely you have the wires hooked up backwards.

On fuses, to be totally honest I stopped using them in my builds.
I know this will get a lot of responses so I will explain.
The device you are controlling typically plugs into a standard 120v outlet.
The majority of those are controlled by a 15 amp circuit breaker in your electrical panel.
Having a 15 amp fuse is redundant and not needed.

The typical casting furnace (lee 4-20) pulls around 7 amps and it isn't fused so if you wanted to a 10 amp fuse would be a good safe measure but as I mentioned no needed.


The units I build have the following parts (for reference)

Golander 1/32 PID
Golander 25 amp SSR
8 ft or 10 ft extension cord
Car Alarm toggle switch - I only switch the PID power not the entire load.
150mm x 105mm x 55mm Enclosure
100mm K thermocouple probe with 3m cable

I don't use a heatsink because the SSR is mounted on a metal enclosure. I haven't had any issues.
I rate the units for 15 amps even though the SSR is 25.

Anyone that builds their own PID only needs to switch the power to the PID controller itself.
I do not recommend switching the entire load (pot or oven).
If the PID doesn't have power then the SSR will not have power either.
Which means no output.
In the crazy event that the SSR fails closed (in other words power is stuck on) then you can just unplug it.
I have been dealing with controls for over 25 years and have NEVER seen a SSR get stock on. I have seen plenty that either didn't pass voltage or passed a reduce amount of voltage.

If anyone has any build questions please send me a message and I will help you.

Thanks for all this info. Im sure I'll have a bunch of questions once I get into it.

[dearslayer]

Actually the +/- symbol is on the left side last 2 connections ( 4&5 ) on the bottom but it says for the SSR. Where I currently have the TC wire connected ( at 6&7 ) it says "AL W1".292707

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[HATCH]

You have it hooked up incorrectly.

9&10

Notice it say TC
Also notice the small + and - sign

Sorry for the edits. Have to look at the picture

10 is + or red connector
9 is - or blue connector

Be more thing and it might not be a huge issue but the PID you have is good up to 752 F

Notice the 400c under range


The alarm is a contact closure. When the PID hits a preset temp it closes the alarm contacts

[dearslayer]

You have it hooked up incorrectly.

9&10

Notice it say TC
Also notice the small + and - sign

Sorry for the edits. Have to look at the picture

10 is + or red connector
9 is - or blue connector

Be more thing and it might not be a huge issue but the PID you have is good up to 752 F

Notice the 400c under range


The alarm is a contact closure. When the PID hits a preset temp it closes the alarm contacts
Aw gotcha. Good catch on the hook up. I did not realize the Max temp on the unit. Hopefully if I need to replace it the size of the unit will be the same at least. Can you recommend a proper one ...should I need it?

[HATCH]

I normally cast at 750 f max so most likely you will be fine.
The size of the unit is 1/16 DIN
It is a standard size that the majority of PID manufacturers use.
I use 1/32 because I like the more compactness.
Plus the fact the smaller the enclosure the cheaper it is.

During COVID lockdown I made some setups that used a plastic enclosure because that is all I could get.
I haven’t had any complaints and if a customer did have a issue with their plastic enclosure I would just swap them out with a metal unit at no charge besides their shipping cost to me.

[SteveM54]

Printed out this article & added it to the read pile.
The amount of info on this subject along is unbelievable.

[David2011]

Hatch, would you mind sharing what enclosure you use?

[HATCH]

It’s secret.
Haha

150mm x 105mm x 55mm
Aluminum not the plastic ones
You can search eBay and pick them up for around $20 shipped
Takes a while to get here.
I purchased a custom 1/32 DIN knockout punch to cut the PID cut outs.
Requires a single round hole drilled in the middle where you want to knockout to be.

I don’t buy them off of eBay but it should point you in the right direction.

Keep in mind I use 1/32 sized PID controllers.
If your gonna use a 1/16 like this poster used then you need a much larger enclosure


Charles

[David2011]

Thanks. I like the looks of yours and will probably go with the 1/32 size. I like doing new kinds of projects; going to give this a shot.

[HATCH]

If you have any questions just shoot me a PM and I will help you.

[dearslayer]

Well I finally got this thing assembled and wired. Flipped the switch and there was no magic smoke so that's a good start. Just have to figure out how to program the darn thing. The instructions leave a little to be desired! 293134293135

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[Noah Zark]

OK, ignorance on full display - what's a PID?

I realize it's been weeks since asked, but PID is the type of digital controller used in controlling lead melt pot temp accurately. It stands for Proportional-Integral-Derivative control functions, and industrial process controllers since the 1930s on contained these functions, starting with pneumatic controllers/circle chart recorders which can be seen in old movies and photos of control rooms.

Controllers work by constantly measuring the difference between a setpoint and the measured and controlled process variable, called the "error" - like your home thermostat does, and sending an output based on the error, to the control element that affects the process - your furnace or boiler oil burner, or gas valve.

The proportional function acts in proportion to the amount of error; small error, little proportional effect. Large error, lots of proportional effect. Problem is, proportional control alone can and often ends up with ever-increasing error if too much proportional effect or "gain" is employed. A chart recorder measuring a system with too much proportional gain looks like a lie detector chart - wild swinging.

Enter the integral function. It looks at the error over time in the past and integrates the rate of change of the error value. It's purpose is to say "Whoa, hoss!" to the proportional function if it gets too carried away.

If the integral function is backward-looking, the derivative function is the forward-looking predictive function that tries to predict the change in the error, and anticipate the needed effect on the control signal to further reduce error and provide even more stable control to the system - so that the chart recorder pen draws a thin, steady line right on setpoint instead of painting a wide swath of ink somewhere above and below setpoint.

Going back to the home thermostat, there's a tiny resistor that gives off heat to the bimetallic spring proportionately to the current drawn by the gas solenoid valve coil. This resistor preheats the thermostat spring in anticipation of room temperature reaching setpoint, and causing the mercury switch to tilt open and close the gas valve early so that room temperature doesn't overshoot too high - that's how the derivative function works; it "looks ahead" at how much error there is and which way it's headed, and says, "that's enough right there, lads" and halts control output for the time being until the error between setpoint and measured variable (either room or lead temp) grows again.

With today's inexpensive, programmable digital controllers such as those pictured in this thread, one can adjust the gain in each of the P-I-D functions manually to reduce control error and improve process stability, or one can select the "autotune" feature which enables the controller's internal computer to set its own P-I-D gain settings automatically. Usually "autotune" is enabled two or more times to "tighten" the control function, and the result is usually improved process variable control each time, to a limit. There are exceptions to autotuning some systems, but to someone like me who cut his teeth on Fisher and Foxboro pneumatic controllers with 24h circle charts in a process industry in the 1970s and 80s, these 1/32 and 1/16 DIN digital process controllers are nothing short of black magic.

HTH,

Noah

[oley55]

Noah, thanks for a well written and refined description of the magic of PIDs that dummies like me can understand.

[TjB101]

Well I finally got this thing assembled and wired. Flipped the switch and there was no magic smoke so that's a good start. Just have to figure out how to program the darn thing. The instructions leave a little to be desired!

Really nice looking. I did the autotune once and basically forget everything else I read. Cranked the pot to setting 8, loaded the pot with lead, flipped it on and set autotune. It melted and tested for close to an hour before autotune went off. Pot is set to 720, overshoots every so often to 730.

How are you going to attach your probe to the pot? I didn’t see a mounting screw on yours

[dearslayer]

Currently only have a wire mounted that the probe drops down into but I don't like it because it's not sturdy enough to keep the probe straight down in the pot. The curly wire on the probe has too much tension wanting to pull it constantly. I want a different probe and the I will mount a proper solid bracket. 293138

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[dearslayer]

I also want to get the Lee 4-20 pot soon. This one isn't big enough.

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[dearslayer]

Delete

[dearslayer]

Not sure if this probe is suitable.

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[HATCH]

You want 100mm length. That is @4 inches
The one you pictured is only 50mm



Here is a. Good choice
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211215/ec7e8b0004b5152ba6603e7676643220.jpg

[HATCH]

also you need to verify the temp range for that probe you have with the yellow curly cord.
You want at least 500c

[dearslayer]

Actually this one might be better as it's longer?? 293140

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[dearslayer]

Sorry sent my last response before I seen yours.

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[HATCH]

The one you picked is a good choice. It’s long enough and has a plug

[dearslayer]

Awesome thanks. I'll place the order.

[TjB101]

Awesome thanks. I'll place the order.

So, how did you finally make out? Figure out the Autotune?

[dearslayer]

So, how did you finally make out? Figure out the Autotune?

Hello... life has been busy so only just finally got around to using the PID just 2 weekends ago to cast about 1350 9mm . Originally I had tried to set the Temp to measure in Fahrenheit as opposed to Celsius and things wouldn't register properly. I had watched a Youtube video stating it could be done but it didn't work for me so I set it back to factory default in Celsius. Set the range to 371 and I was really surprised that it held the temp within a degree or 2 but for the most part it was bang on. As for the AT...I hit the AT button about 30 degrees before it hit the set temp but to be honest I'm not sure what it's actually supposed to do. What is the purpose and how do I know it's autotuned? The AT light did come on and blinked for some time before finally going out if I remember correctly. At any rate I'm totally happy with it compared to all the fussing I was doing previously with the thermostat on the Lee pot trying to maintain a constant temp which was next to impossible for a rookie caster like myself. This thing is a godsend and I'm glad I built it.

Going back to post # 54 I still don't quite get it. Mental block I guess.

[TjB101]

Glad to hear it’s working, albeit sans Fahrenheit setting. When I ran the AT feature it was right from a cold pot. Turned it on, temp set to 720, and hit AT. Ran for 45 min, added no other ingots, and let it run until it turned off. I guess it learns what it takes to reclaim heat based on the output of the pot. Today mine will overshoot to about 730 every once in a while but keeps everything stable for me.

I really like to see the temp when I add my cut sprues … I’ve learned just how many scoops I can drop in before the temp goes too low and I have a (cold) clogged opening.

[dearslayer]

Myself I added the sprues as I cast and the temp never really dropped at all doing it this way. Perhaps I just got lucky the first time.

[popper]

Should run about 385 C to get 720ish F. If you start with a full pot, set AT at start. It will try to learn(tune) the temp curve to get to temp fast with little overshoot. That is the purpose of a PID. If you normally use half pot to cast it will overshoot a bit but just wait till it settles out. Your PID should have a 'dead band' setting - the upper and lower operating temp.

[thump_rrr]

Anyone know of a source for a fully assembled PID in Canada? I contemplated ordering all the parts from Amazon.ca to assemble one but the total price would be in the neighborhood of $200.00 . I've seen the Youtube videos of Johnny's reloading bench from 2016 and it's a great source, but at that price of $200 CDN I'm thinking if one can be purchased fully assemble for even a little more then it might be worth it for a beginner caster.

Sorry I'm late to the party but these are the parts I purchased to build my own.
These are in Canadian dollars.
https://abra-electronics.com/sensors/sensors-temperature-en/sens-tc-kit-digital-temperature-pid-controller-kit.html

I replace the probe in the kit with this one for a lead pot.
https://abra-electronics.com/sensors/sensors-temperature-en/sens-thrmo-k-type-thermocouple-probe-sensor.html
the one that comes with the kit is good for a lube sizer or mold.


All you need to add is a plug from an old extension cord, a receptacle and a metal box of any kind.
An ammo can comes to mind.
A 10 year old can build one.

[thump_rrr]

Hello... life has been busy so only just finally got around to using the PID just 2 weekends ago to cast about 1350 9mm . Originally I had tried to set the Temp to measure in Fahrenheit as opposed to Celsius and things wouldn't register properly. I had watched a Youtube video stating it could be done but it didn't work for me so I set it back to factory default in Celsius. Set the range to 371 and I was really surprised that it held the temp within a degree or 2 but for the most part it was bang on. As for the AT...I hit the AT button about 30 degrees before it hit the set temp but to be honest I'm not sure what it's actually supposed to do. What is the purpose and how do I know it's autotuned? The AT light did come on and blinked for some time before finally going out if I remember correctly. At any rate I'm totally happy with it compared to all the fussing I was doing previously with the thermostat on the Lee pot trying to maintain a constant temp which was next to impossible for a rookie caster like myself. This thing is a godsend and I'm glad I built it.

Going back to post # 54 I still don't quite get it. Mental block I guess.

Here is a link to the manual for the controller.
SL2 is the parameter to change from Celsius to Fahrenheit. change the 0000 to 0001
https://abra-electronics.com/index.php?dispatch=attachments.getfile&attachment_id=135

[Mike W1]

Here is a link to the manual for the controller.
SL2 is the parameter to change from Celsius to Fahrenheit. change the 0000 to 0001
https://abra-electronics.com/index.php?dispatch=attachments.getfile&attachment_id=135

Which may or may not do the trick depending on which REX C100 you have. I have in my notes the LOCK settings for 3 different setups and I never had any luck changing to Fahrenheit. I don't doubt some models will let you do it but mine don't. Think the 3 that I regularly use are Japanese built and seeing no need to screw with them anymore am not going to. But I have a Chinese knockoff that I spent some time with today. Gotta love those translations!!! The SL2 on it's options says "SLIGHTLY" whatever that means. I remember on the others it did say F or C. This one had additional info saying set lock to 1000 to get to the COD menu which I don't remember seeing before to get to the secondary parameters.

[HATCH]

Not all units are real ones. Some are clones and on the clones not all the features work

[tdoor4570]

where can a person find a wiring diagram and parts list for a PID?

[Mal Paso]

Not all units are real ones. Some are clones and on the clones not all the features work

I was wondering about that. I have one from amazon like that, misbehaves and settings missing. It's better to buy from someone that does the vetting for you like Hatch or Auber if you just have to build your own.

[HATCH]

where can a person find a wiring diagram and parts list for a PID?

There is a sticky on wiring

[thump_rrr]

I was wondering about that. I have one from amazon like that, misbehaves and settings missing. It's better to buy from someone that does the vetting for you like Hatch or Auber if you just have to build your own.
The first one I built was an Auber.
It is a much better unit.
I use the Auber ones with Ramp and Soak on industrial ovens quite regularly.
Many years ago before online shopping we were paying nearly $800 for the 1/4 DIN ones from the oven manufacturer.
I believe the one from Auber is around $90.

When I gave one client the price for the Auber he ordered 5 to put on his shelf.

[K7sparky]

I just found this thread while wondering if anyone else was using PID controllers on their pots.

I tried using a retired Yokogawa UP30 about 15 years ago. Wired everything in a in a pile planning on finding a nice box for it. The round to it is still waiting and the only box it’s seen is cardboard for storage when not casting. YEP UGLY.
Nowhere as easy to program as these new ones.
Also it was necessary to gin up an interface to use the Yokogawa output 4 to 20 mA to turn on a TRIAC from 0 to 100%

Several days ago a REX-100 kit 0 to 1300C with probe rated 400C arrived at the grand price of $18.02 including tax.

Got it set up on the bench with a mV source to the TC input and a light bulb for load on the SSR.
Before buying it I did a search for manuals and got the RKC (Japan) manuals to see what it would do.
Great fun playing with the setup

As Mike W1 noted in post #74 changing SL2 from 0 to 1 did not change the displayed temperature from C to F.
Considerable head scratching more digging finally the AHA!

The cheapie China units are knock offs made by Berm.
Thump rrr in post 73 noted the link to one of the RKC manuals I have
Thus the differences are not only in wiring.
I am guessing even though all the parameters are the same designations they may not be programmed in the Berm firmware.
Another is LCK unlock RKC 0000 Berm 1000 but 0000 also works.
Reading the instructions that were packed with the Berm unit some of information seems to be for the RKC.
Berm units don’t seem to be field selectable for TC type or range either.
A closer look at the Berm instructions for parameters SL1 To SL11 is GOD set to 0 not COD.
They got the second set of parameters correct as COD=1
297384
I said it was ugly

[K7sparky]

Noah Zark POST #54 is the finest description of PID controllers I can remember reading.
Someone else still remembers Foxboro and Fisher pneumatic with the pen dragger charts.
Don’t forget Hagan / Westinghouse boiler control that was a real work of art. No chart but the balance beams for gain were interesting
I don’t know if I still have any pictures of one.

I copied it and sent to an old work friend that retired quite awhile after I did

[K7sparky]

Currently only have a wire mounted that the probe drops down into but I don't like it because it's not sturdy enough to keep the probe straight down in the pot. The curly wire on the probe has too much tension wanting to pull it constantly. I want a different probe and the I will mount a proper solid bracket.

This is a piece of copper tubing top slightly flared and bottom end bent over and silver soldered. There is a copper mounting strip silver soldered close to the top and held by the screw on the back of the pot.
The probe is made from a piece of type K wire with glass sleeving and end melted together for the junction.

I haven't seen it mentioned in this thread. The TC wires need to be terminated to Stainless steel. Copper will form a junction with the TC wire and add an offset.
The little plugs mentioned in post 41 and on the commercial probes with plugs are SS

297385

The old fishing sinker wired to the top of the pour valve operator helps keep the valve from dripping

[Mike W1]

I don't know, but I suspect RKC of Japan may have been the original manufacturer of REX C-100s. I have 3 of them purchased before I ever noticed the Berme (spelling?) units on ebay. I had correspondence with RKC themselves and they stated their's were all marked Made In Japan. Some time ago I wanted a spare unit and ordered one on ebay. Picture in the ad showed Made In Japan but the one I actually received did not have those markings and the box although colored the same said RKC Monitor. Ebay refunded my funds but didn't ask for it back. So I hooked it all up and tested it out pretty thoroughly. It seems to be OK but near as I can determine also cannot be switched to Fahrenheit. I remember someone on here I believe that had their troubles with the Berme but do not recall what issues they had at the time. RKC makes several model of REX's and have not noticed any knockoff's of the the higher numbered models.

[K7sparky]

I couldn't get SL8 (PV bias) works either.
That's to remove offset in PV ie to tune out sensor offset so PV is correct.

But then for the price I don't care if there is a 3 or 4 degree offset in PV.
Heck all I am doing is controlling my pot temperature and it's closer with a PID than I ever managed before.

The Berm unit seemed to control the working temperature just fine before the casting started.
EDIT: I shouldn't have counted my chickens before they hatched. I'll update after more testing

I also dump the spruces back into the pot.

I do auto tune after the pot is at working temp. That's the area of PV I want regulated.
The time constant of keeping a pot of lead at casting temperature while adding a few spruces or cull bullets is not related to bringing ingots up to casting temperature.

My original Yokogawa can handle all kinds of break points and time constant changes in multiple stored patterns / programs. But good grief it was K bucks way back and it is a real PIA to learn and program. Kind of like using a Nuc when is all that's need is a frag

These REX controllers are as close to plug and play as I have seen. A real one may be in my future. No more knock offs

[K7sparky]

SSRs

HATCH in Post #40 is the only one so far that I think got the heat sink correct.
Maybe his dealing with them for over 25 years explains it.
Just screw it to the metal box.

As noted his post the LEE 4-20 pulls around 7A max

Most SSRs are 2 junction devices. Silicon Junctions typically have an on voltage drop of 0.6V. Larger devises that are lightly loaded usually have a bit higher drop so lets say 1V per junction.

The SSR would have a 2V drop and pass 7A. That's a grand total of 14W to dissipate.
And that's only when it's on. Melting ingots at the beginning is the only time that will happen.

When my pot is at temperature and I'm just tossing in cull bullets and spruces my Yokogawa runs around 30% output.

I haven't bothered to get out a stop watch and try to figure out the REX duty cycle but it better be 30% also.

With the pot at temperature the SSR is OFF 70% and ON 30%
The SSR is dissipating around 4.2W

OK! enough of the calculations.
For shucks & grins, how does my LEE 4-20 do at cold pot?

297515

Excuse the fuzzy picture, a flash washes out the PID & Fluke displays
I didn't verify the current.
I consider 1C for PV to be cold pot
It's hard to read in the picture. The SSR is the 40A that came with the kit.
1.02V (across the SSR) X 7A = 7W worst case dissipation.
The rather constant 1V drop across the SSR with changing current smells like a FET is buried inside.
The SSR is sitting on a small Aluminum plate just to give me a warm fuzzy feeling

[K7sparky]

Addressing a failed SSR
Like HATCH I've never seen a failed on.
Failed on could be gating circuit bad or shorted output device likely a MOSFET.
It takes power to gate so that wouldn't seem likely but if it were happen the dissipation would be no more than Cold Pot.
Shorted output device has essentially 0 Ohms so dissipation would be 0W

Failed open / off I=0 therefor dissipation =0W

[TjB101]

Been a long time since casting due to injury, divorce, and move, but I remember bending a coat hanger. Hopefully, I will be in a position this spring to have everything set up and good to go. Been a long journey.

I was re-reading this old thread to refresh my memory for some new PID designs. How are you making out?