Round nose boolits in tubular magis

[Yooper003]

I was reading where someone said to only use flat nose boolits in tube mags. I have just purchased a 44 mag. Lever gun.they specifically said not to use round nose. I was looking at my 240 gr. round nose & it didn’t look like the nose was pointed enough to detonate a primer, so, I primed a case &took a dummy round ( no powder or primer) and set it over the primer on the case & proceeded to hit it with a plastic hammer. I never detonated the primer though I drove the boolit in the dummy round into the case. Now, I am not saying it is 100% safe for everyone to do this & everyone should use their best judgment.BUT, this is what I found.

[444ttd]

i used the round nose in my win m94.

https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/30-cal-308-150-gr-interlock-rn#!/

[nhyrum]

Here's my thoughts. You need to weigh both the likelihood AND severity. Sure, it might not be very likely a primer would donate, but what would happen if one did? It's the severity on this one that gets me

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[zarrinvz24]

One can use whatever bullets they desire, even pointed or spitzer bullets - but if one fires a rifle with multiple cartridges loaded in such configuration in a tubular magazine there is the risk of ignition. I've used pointed FMJ bullets in my Model 94, but I only put one in the magazine, cycle the action moving it to the chamber, and then loading a 2nd round into the tubular magazine.

[gwpercle]

I have read before that a round nose boolit wouldn't set off a primer ... and maybe in a J-word the lead RN is soft enough to deform and not pop a primer ... but you know what ... How can you be sure Joe blow was talking about J-word RN and maybe we are talking about hard cast magnum boolits ...
... would you be willing to bet your life on it ... Not Me brother , for my Winchester model 94 the boolit mould was a FP !
Works just Jim Dandy in a 30-30 lever and quite well in a 1903A3 30-06 , 7.5 Swiss and 308 Winchester ... all bolt guns .
You do what you want ... garyw is playing it safe ... Lever gun gets a FP Boolit .
Gary

[imashooter2]

Lots of factory round nose in lever gun calibers. If their lawyers let them out the door, then it’s pretty certain there isn’t a problem.

[GregLaROCHE]

Years ago before I started casting I bought a box of 350 grain jacketed bullets to load. I didn’t think about it at the time, but when I got home, six hours away, I realized they were round nose and knew they weren’t supposed to be use in tube magazines. They were all I had so I used them in my 45/70, eventually and never had problems. I probably shot close to the 100 that came in the box. I realized later that they were to reload 458 win.
I’ve seen people test the theory in videos in guns and there were never any problems either.
Years ago pointed spitzer bullets were used in tub feed guns, but the cartridges ware rimmed, so the cartridge set on an angle in the tube and the points never touched the primers ahead of them.

[oley55]

Upon seeing some of the comments in this thread, I set about watching hundreds of old western movies looking for flat nosed boolits. Unfortunately I was never able to see a flat nosed bullet used in any rifle, rather they were always using round nosed boolits in their lever guns.

The old western movie 'proof of concept' is offered in jest, but when I look at the many picks of old cartridges in the "Vintage Ammo" forum I just don't see flat nosed boolits. It seems odd that round nosed boolits are dangerous today, but not during the preceding 150+ years of lever gun use. What am I missing?

[Mk42gunner]

There is a danger of RN setting off a primer, just how much, I don't know for sure. The Marlin Model 1881 failed the US Army rifle trials due to a recoil induced cartridge firing in the magazine. I don't remember ever reading how badly the shooter was injured.

Buffalo Bore (IIRC) went to small primers in the .45-70 to help prevent this from happening with their heavy loads.

Robert

[Texas by God]

The “deadliest mushroom in the woods” the Remington Core Lokt 30-30s are roundnose and have been through many a 94 and 336 with no problems.

[Hick]

Physics 101 - when you pull the trigger the rifle recoils but the cartridges in the magazine are only held in place by a weak spring-- so they don't feel the recoil-- they slide forward as a group-- and only for the very short distance until the rifle is stopped by your shoulder. The cartridges never see the recoil we feel. This is the same reason crimping is not really needed. (I know-- blasphemy). I'm still testing, but so far I have fired over 15,000 rounds in my Win 94 30-30 without crimping the bullets. so far, so good. So-- yes I load round noise FMJ in the magazine (uncrimped). The only thing I single load is spitzers, but they're too long for the magazine anyway.

[GregLaROCHE]

There is a danger of RN setting off a primer, just how much, I don't know for sure. The Marlin Model 1881 failed the US Army rifle trials due to a recoil induced cartridge firing in the magazine. I don't remember ever reading how badly the shooter was injured.

Buffalo Bore (IIRC) went to small primers in the .45-70 to help prevent this from happening with their heavy loads.

Robert

I don’t disagree with you, in fact I think I remember reading it too. Do you think the primers were a lot more sensitive back then? Maybe the industry has developed primers that take more to set them off today, because of safety standards.

[Larry Gibson]

There is a danger of RN setting off a primer, just how much, I don't know for sure. The Marlin Model 1881 failed the US Army rifle trials due to a recoil induced cartridge firing in the magazine. I don't remember ever reading how badly the shooter was injured......Robert

They were using inside primed cartridges. Those were much different than today's primers.

Many years back when the Oregon State Police in eastern Oregon transitioned from M94 30-30s to shotguns in the patrol cars I shot up 100+ rounds of factory 160 gr FMJ RN cartridges. I believe the 160 gr FMJ RN may have been one of, if not, the first 30-30 rounds made(?).

[fredj338]

ITs been long established a true RN may detonate the rds in the tubular mag. So a small flat point would be better.

[muskeg13]

Even a flat nosed boolit isn't a guarantee against a magazine tube explosion. A bottle necked rimmed cartridge is probably safer in a magazine tube than one with a straight walled case, since the nose rests against the case rim and not the primer.
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[Mk42gunner]

They were using inside primed cartridges. Those were much different than today's primers.

Many years back when the Oregon State Police in eastern Oregon transitioned from M94 30-30s to shotguns in the patrol cars I shot up 100+ rounds of factory 160 gr FMJ RN cartridges. I believe the 160 gr FMJ RN may have been one of, if not, the first 30-30 rounds made(?).


I don’t disagree with you, in fact I think I remember reading it too. Do you think the primers were a lot more sensitive back then? Maybe the industry has developed primers that take more to set them off today, because of safety standards.
As Larry said, different primers. Heck it was even a different type of priming system, so who knows just how sensitive they really were?

Also IIRC it was with the new(ish) 500 grain RN.

I do think that as diameter goes up, the risk goes up. Same for heavier recoiling cartridges, and the less taper the round has, the more risk.

In my mind, the risk is practically nonexistent for the small cartridges like the .218 Bee, .25-20 and .32-20, and very slight for Larry's 30-30 example. Just a few years ago Winchester sold a 150 JHP that had a hard jacket over the ogive.

Remington's 150PSP for the .35 Remington is pretty pointed too.

Robert

[FLINTNFIRE]

Where does the idea a bottle necked rim rests against the rim come from ? maybe in the remington spiral tubes that were designed with that in mind but not in a straight tube , you do what you want with loading magazine tubes with pointed or round nose and I will mainly use flat nose with enough flat to not sit into the primer .

This has been discussed here and elsewhere , it just is not the best idea , round nose with soft lead and todays primers may be ok , but why is it that hard to load a flat nose , the ballistic coefficient is that not much different in the calibers and styles with the velocity being used .

But each can do as they wish .

[muskeg13]

Where does the idea a bottle necked rim rests against the rim come from ? maybe in the remington spiral tubes that were designed with that in mind but not in a straight tube , you do what you want with loading magazine tubes with pointed or round nose and I will mainly use flat nose with enough flat to not sit into the primer .

The French in 1886 when they adopted the 8mm Lebel, and the first military spitzer a few years later, for use in a tube magazine. A wide rimmed bottle necked cartridge orients the nose of the bullet down when it's laying horizonal in the mag tube so the point rests against the rim of the case loaded ahead of it.

Primers do make a big difference. They were Federal 150s in the magazine tube explosion photos I posted above.

[trapper9260]

I will use a flat nose bullet in my tube . For how I see it if I was to use a RN cast I say just flat the nose some and make your measurement and then after you put a FN on it take it again then you know when you seat and have your OAL. To be on the safe side for not worry about the primer going off. Unless someone have another idea I like to know also. This is just a idea I am putting out and have used it also.

[Yooper003]

Even a flat nosed boolit isn't a guarantee against a magazine tube explosion. A bottle necked rimmed cartridge is probably safer in a magazine tube than one with a straight walled case, since the nose rests against the case rim and not the primer.
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Not sure what this picture is telling me, it appears that the primer has a pin indent on it?

[FLINTNFIRE]

The French in 1886 when they adopted the 8mm Lebel, and the first military spitzer a few years later, for use in a tube magazine. A wide rimmed bottle necked cartridge orients the nose of the bullet down when it's laying horizonal in the mag tube so the point rests against the rim of the case loaded ahead of it.

Primers do make a big difference. They were Federal 150s in the magazine tube explosion photos I posted above.

The french lebel used a circular groove on head of case , once again to have the point ride in that groove not against the primer , and as primers go I have had 2 go boom over years from pressure against a priming cup and a ejector both winchester primers .

[mdi]

FWIW; a lot of "I reloaded..." and theory but I don't think this is a levergun myth. While I can't post pics of destroyed guns or give a count of RN loads fired in a tube mag, I won't load RN or any "pointy" bullets in my 44 Mag. lever gun. It may be just a one in a million occurance but I won't risk being next in line after 999,999 shooters used RN in theitr tube magazine rifles...

[muskeg13]

With straight walled cases in a magazine tube, the bullet meplat will rest against the primer/primer pocket. Magazine tube explosions can occur even with flat nosed bullets. I believe very sensitive Federal 150 large pistol primers were a major factor in the magazine tube explosion I experienced. Don't tempt fate.

[muskeg13]

The french lebel used a circular groove on head of case , once again to have the point ride in that groove not against the primer , and as primers go I have had 2 go boom over years from pressure against a priming cup and a ejector both winchester primers .

Right about the circular groove, but the case design with a very prominent rim and steeply tapered case orient the bullet tip into the groove in the case rim and not against the primer.

On the two primers you had go off unexpectently, was this when chambering a round? What were the results? Did you just have the bullet ejected at low velocity and a lot of unberned powder, or was it more serious?

[FLINTNFIRE]

As to the lebel , the first bullet was flat nosed , when they went with the spitzer they made the ring and somewhat protected the primer case was already designed as it was , which means the french knew the primer detonation could occur .

The first as was said was when seating primer , the other was a jam on feeding a 1911 , took hold of slide and with just the pressure of pulling hard no back and forth just pulling straight hard against it set the primer off , bullet left case it floor , powder burns and brass fragments into left index finger , both winchester primers .

At the time the gun shows always had winchester primers so I stocked up , funny how I have mashed a primer seating it on a case that had crimp left though it had been swaged , only had that 1 pop , others it mangles and you punch it out later , only takes 1 primer doing that to know I will use a wider flatter nosed bullet in my tube magazines .

Never had a round go off chambering .