12 bore load question

[hansol]

Hey everyone,

I'm new to the forum, but have been in touch with a few members already. I've mainly been a rifleman my whole life, but recently have made the jump to shotguns and reloading for them. And that is the basis for my next question:

I have a SxS slug gun that I am looking to fire a .735 round ball, as well as a "tri-ball" load similar to the dixie loads, but instead I will be using 3 .570 muzzleloading balls. And it is this tri-ball load that I start to have issues.

Apparently in the city I am in, I can't buy 3" empty hulls; I can only use new stuff that I fire off myself. So my plan is to take some winchester xpert 3" steel shot shells, dump all the contents out, and "reload" the empy shells with my own tri-ball load. But that being said, I don't want to kill myself either. So here is my load "recipe", but bear in mind I'm a rookie shotgun reloader, so I don't know what works or what doesn't:

-Winchester 3" xpert HV hull
-Primer is whatever is loaded in the HV hull.
-28 grains blue dot (for starting load; may go higher eventually)
-"Sam 1" steel shot wad for 3" hull
-3 .570 lead round balls seated in shot cup
-cotton balls used as filler around the .570 balls to stop them from rattling around
-cardboard cover whiteglued to the top of the hull to act as a cover (I don't have a crimper)

Anyways, just wanted to run this past everyone here, and get some input regarding if this load will kill me or not, or what problems I will run in to. Thanks very much -Cameron

[missionary5155]

Good evening and WELCOME !
Scroll down through this forum... It seems to me some one has a thread about tri-ball that should help you along.
For .735 RB Longbow has been experimenting and has several threads that will include info from other shooters of full bore RB. You are gonna like these things !
God Bless You !

[jsizemore]

Yes, you will probably have some serious issues with a tri-ball load of 3-.570 balls cast from wheelweights. They will weigh an estimated 807 grains or 1.89 ounces. OUCH! 2 balls will weigh 538 grains or 1.25 ounces, a little less then your .735 ball (estimated 576 grains). You could probably use your 735 load data to load both rounds. Good luck and let us know how your tests turn out. Jim

[turbo1889]

From my view point there is only one major problem I see with the load your building -- It sounds like your using soft lead muzzle loader balls. (Yes, that's right, I don't see a problem with the combined weight of the balls or the powder charge suggested).

Soft lead balls are a no-no for multi-ball loads, you want hard lead balls at least WW alloy and hard if possible. Theoretically two or more big soft balls less then bore diameter but still more then half bore diameter can act together to work like a wedge and drive up the loads pressure.

Have I ever fired off such a load a multi ball load made with soft balls and lived to tell the tail -- Yes. Did I have one or two shells out of a load group so loaded for some reason act like they were hotter then the rest and not extract from my gun because they were stuck in the chamber and I had to tap them out with a dowel and hammer from the muzzle end -- Yes. Will I load such a multi-ball load again using soft balls -- No.


Finally, if you are using hard balls and I'm mistaken then continue right along and if might be so bold as to suggest, for at least the first loading you could recycle the steel shot wadsfrom the original loading of those shells (But not the powder charge intended for a much lighter load of steel shot of course !!!) -- should work just as well as the SAM-1 wads your suggesting for what your doing.

[hansol]

Hey guys,

Wow, thanks for all of the info so far! This is exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for.

Thanks for the info on the soft lead balls. Yes, you are correct in assuming that those are what I am using. But after hearing your input on them Turbo, I think that I will have to re-think their use. I was only using them because I don't have any casting tools, so they were convenient to just "load up and go". But unfortunately it looks like that isn't the case.

Also, I used the "Sam 1" wads because they seem to be the only ones that will hold 3 .57cal balls all in one cup.

And lastly, yes, I realize the recoil on these loads will probably be monsterous, but in the grand scheme of things I'm not too worried. I work as a hunting guide during the seasons, so am looking to use this SxS as my bear gun. The trouble is, all the usual slugs/buckshot loads are all soft lead, and that is a problem. And that is precisely what has led me to this forum, with the info on hardcast roundball loads. Huge penetration and huge holes = very good.

Thanks again for everyone's time, and I will let you know how these loads work out. It looks like I am going to have to go even further down the rabbit hole and buy some casting tools...:-D

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Yera sback I had the same I dea... I took my Fox B 12 guage and reamed both barrels to just .003 constriction at the chokes. I decided on .685 so I could use wad+Rb. I also had access to .685 ball bearings. Then I worked up my .685 RB load to max. It was cooking at 1550 +fps. There isnt any animal in our side of the world that will take two of those rounds properly placed and walk much farther. With the double bore using one RB you can use WW / pure lead 50-50 and get expansion in soft material past 1" Me I would go straight WW . You can push these beyond 1600fps IF you breach can take the pressure. My Fox B was never checked with a strain gauge so you might want to consider that investment. I built a rear sight for my Fox and it would shoot both balls at 30 yards 1.5 inches apart. At 50 yds it was near 4-4.5 inches. Full bore .735 gives you more lead.
Personally I do not think I would mess with the Tri- load. 12 bore will stop Rhino and was considered minimum for elephant... BUT used by some Tusk Hunters at only 1150 -1250 fps.
That is my opinion... I hunt with .57 balls in my Zouave. They penetrate well. But they do not penetrate like a .685 or a .710 ( I have tested both extensively) . I played with muti loads in 357 and 41 mags. They are great for what they do... But a solid heavy slug will out penetrate always. And if a "up the nose" shot is all I have at a charging Griz, 12 bore RB will get the job done.
But you are the feller who is going to risk his hide. Experiment be sure. But I do know what 12 bore RB will do and I would hunt anything on this rock with my FoxB and my RB loads.
God Bless you Mike

[hansol]

Hey Mike,

Well it pretty much seems I am following in your footsteps. I just finished doing some smith work on my Lanber SxS, and have finished installing front and rear sights, as well as shortening the barrel from an original 30" to 24". I know the accuracy might not be best, but I did it for familiarity reasons more than anything else: I have always been a rifleman and as such am very used to lining up iron sights. It's just a natural thing for me. Trying to get the bead sight to work never seemed to give me much luck. And I know you are supposed to "point" a shotgun, but nonetheless I managed to screw that up too. So the front and rear sights are there just to keep me in line.

And once again I am agreeing with you Mike. When I am out in the bush, my regular carry load will be 2 .735 hard-cast round balls. I am just playing around with a tri-ball load in order to give me another "cool" load to shoot at the range. But for general carry, it will be the two cardcast roundballs for the reasons you stated.

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p204/hansol04/DSC00082.jpg

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p204/hansol04/DSC00086.jpg

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p204/hansol04/DSC00087.jpg

[missionary5155]

Greetings Hansol
That will get the job done ! I also put rifle type (homemade) sights on my FoxB. I left the barrels 30 inch as I liked the feel. But last time up I bought a set of 26" barrels and those now are set up as my ball barrels. The 30´s I reamed and threaded for screw in chokes.
About the only thing better than RB would be a deisgn like Dixie Slugs is selling ( Tusker). looks like the old Paradox slugs.
Stay safe. Mike

[turbo1889]

. . . It looks like I am going to have to go even further down the rabbit hole and buy some casting tools. . .

You might consider dropping down to the "Swapping and Trading" section of the forum and putting out a wanted ad for some 0.570" to 0.600" round balls cast from WW alloy or harder somebody on this forum is bound to have a round ball mold in that range and be wanting to make a little extra money. Would offer myself except for I don't have a mold in that range, got smaller and bigger round ball molds but not one right in that range.

[hansol]

Just as an aside to the "tri-ball" load, could a guy get by with loading 2 .57 calibre balls instead of three? Or will those cause a "wedge" to form as well?

Cheers -Cameron

[hansol]

I got my shipment of 735 round balls. I swaged both barrels, and they check in at the .729 mark.

That being said, how difficult should it be to "force" the 735 round balls through the barrels? I had to start the balls with a hammer, using crisp taps, up until about the last half of the barrel. Then with a bit of effort you could slide the ball through with just your hand on the ram rod.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I would in my barrel. Just realise there are forces playing here we have little TESTED pressure documentation...
BARE ball... no, NOTHING between ball circimfrance and barrel walls. (Double negatives are normal in Spanish)
Start out at one round MINIMUM load. Fire that and do everything possible to reteive that wad and ball. The read you get off those will tell you a bunch. Mike the case expansion about 1/4 2 above the rim... whereevr it is the widdest. Compare that to your previous known 3 " mag factory shell. If you have not fired that 3" mag factory shell that is the FIRST step for both barrels. That case expansion on those factory shells are your max pressure gauges.
So if your RB fired load is in specs you can keep increasing powder 1 grain until you find that load Max . Remember each barrel may be different. My FoxB barrel chambers are not exact and it takes a bit less powder on one side. So your final load should be whatever barrel takes the lesser powder charge. Of course you may decide a .735 ball at 1400 fps is more than most charging Rhinos need anyway. But 1550+ is attainable IF your barels can support the pressure.
Mike God Bless you. Shoot Safe !

[longbow]

I got myself a 0.735" ball mould about a year ago and wondered the same thing so I did the same thing.

Cast a few balls from range scrap, got a short solid rod and a long solid rod, dropped a ball in the chamber, gave it a rap with a mallet and the short rod, it moved pretty easily I thought, then pushed it through the barrel fairly easily.

My conclusion was that it wouldn't take enough pressure to swage the equator down to worry about.

I then looked up various loads for equal weight shot and I have the Precision Rifle loading data for their PileDrive slug which was a 610 grain full bore lead slug loaded to up to 44 grs. Blue Dot.

I used their starting load of 36 grs. in a 2 3/4" Fiocchi hull over with hard card wad support. That worked pretty well with no sticky extraction so I boosted the load to 38 grs. Recoil at this point was as much or more than some heavier bore size slugs I loaded with the same charge so I stopped there feeling that the swaging through the forcing cone was likely raising pressures a bit even though the slug was lighter.

My bore is 0.729" but I also shot the same load through a rifled Remington 870 with a 0.727" bore with no problems.

No sticky extraction but I am not about to increase the charge without getting loads pressure tested or some verification from someone else that it is safe. 38 grs. of Blue Dot slaps me around enough that I don't feel the need to push the limits of pressure anyway.

Another fellow here did the same with 0.735" RB and turbo1889 has done this and much more as well. He is a good guy to check with.

I have not loaded these balls in 3" so can't comment there. Also, my feeling is that the 0.735" ball is safe with the loads I have used but I do believe the swaging is causing a pressure rise from the behaviour of the load. A faster powder may respond differently and pressure may increase faster and more so be careful.

Thinking back, I should have ordered a mould from Jeff Tanner in the UK as I was looking for a mould of about 0.732" but couldn't find one and forgot about him at the time. He will make moulds of whatever size you want. Shotman ordered a mould in 0.728" (I think) and says it is very nice and reasonably priced.

Link here: http://www.jt-bullet-moulds.co.uk/moulds.htm

Longbow

[Dixie Slugs]

Lee makes a .600" round ball mold. The wad we use in our Tri-Ball II load is the
TUPRW123 orange wad from Precision Reloading. The only buffer we use is the PRPSB22. Blue Dot is a good powder to begin with at 28 grs...do not good over 30 grs as you may get blown wads. In the 12 ga 3" you will get about 1050'/" from a 20" barrel. We use new primed Cheddite 12 ga 3" hulls from Graf & Sons.
Cast the balls from WW with about 3% tin added. You will need to roll crimp the loads to be able to stay at, or under, an OAL of 2.76" in 3" chambers.
There are some penetration tests with this load published on our web page.
The above load of 28 grs of Blue Dot, with the above components, has been pressure tested and gives right at 10,200 psi....well within the specs for 12 ga
3". Pressure testing done at Ballistic Research for the exact load above.
Regards, James