Casting pure lead .45 acp rounds for use in cap and ball revolver?

[SlippyRider]

Anyone here ever done it?
The diameter is great at something in the neighborhood of .452

Im thinking a .45 acp lyman devastator.
Im already looking to cast for my 1911, so when shopping potential moulds i couldnt help thinking "why couldnt that work in my 1858?"

Would really appreciate any input on the topic.

Thanks in advance, fellows.

[Sasquatch-1]

It might be a little difficult to load. When using a 45 cal. ball the cylinder is suppose to cut a ring of lead off the ball so that it seals well. Doing that to a full length pistol bullet might be difficult. This is just my opinion I have never done it before. If you try it let us know how it works.

[SlippyRider]

I have a pretty solid powder inc reloading stand. Ive been casting and shooting some Eras Gone English Kerr conicals. TBH theyre enough of a pain to load on the gun itself that i always use the loading stand for them anyhow.

[SlippyRider]

Gosh, you got me thinking though, Sasquatch-1. Theres no taper to the base of the bullet, probably present a real issue getting the dang thing started in the mouth of the cylinder.

[SlippyRider]

291816

[Sasquatch-1]

You may check to see if there is a gas check bullet mold available. The rebate on the bottom may be enough to allow you to start the bullet. The other problem I can see is that the bullet may not seat symmetrically.

[Woodnbow]

Accurate Molds has variety of heeled molds which work well for cap and ball and can be used in the 1911. That’s the way I would go. Much easier to use in the c&b…

[charlie b]

Years ago I tried it. Had to load on the bench cause the bullet would not fit in the loading area of my Rem.

I was using a bevel base TC bullet (Lee mold). The bevel base helped aligning it a lot. But, shaving that much lead off took a LOT of effort. I ended up using an arbor press. I loaded 6, fired them, and never did it again. :) Accuracy wasn't as good as RB, but, wasn't horrible.

[dondiego]

If you can find a now discontinued 44 REAL mold, they work well in C&B's.

[Edward]

You may check to see if there is a gas check bullet mold available. The rebate on the bottom may be enough to allow you to start the bullet. The other problem I can see is that the bullet may not seat symmetrically.

You dont want or need a GC for pure lead ,it loads fine unless you alloy and then it gets hard and you break stuff .Stay with pure and you cant lose /Ed

[Hellgate]

Big Lube molds makes a versatile 6 cavity 45 cal mold for use in C&Bs as well as 45 ACP, 45-70, etc. See URL below.
http://www.biglube.com/BulletMolds.aspx?ItemID=09d6fdda-c105-4c87-b269-68ebfdaba982

[Oyeboten]

Anyone here ever done it?
The diameter is great at something in the neighborhood of .452

Im thinking a .45 acp lyman devastator.
Im already looking to cast for my 1911, so when shopping potential moulds i couldnt help thinking "why couldnt that work in my 1858?"

Would really appreciate any input on the topic.

Thanks in advance, fellows.


Funny you should ask!

I have been thinking about doing this lately, but I was figuring to use the old basic original usual .45 ACP Bullet, and in Pure Lead.

It is so much like a so called "Conical", only to my own glance, a better version of same.

Might have to size them down though, I'll have to see...my Various .44 Cap & Ball Revolvers are all over the place for Cylinder Bore diameters, but one I think is about .451, so...might be an easy fit for that one...others are .446 though, so, ugh!

[Walks]

I used to know a Cowboy Shooter who sold Bear Creek bullets on the side.
He used a .452 200gr SWC in his Ruger Old Armies. Never had a problem. I think the pressure of the loading lever would be enough to crush any Hollow Point bullet soft enough to expand at those velocities.

[johnnybar]

You dont want or need a GC for pure lead ,it loads fine unless you alloy and then it gets hard and you break stuff .Stay with pure and you cant lose /Ed

He meant to use the soft lead slug with no GC on it to serve as an easy starting point when seating the bullet.

[johnnybar]

I just use a conical mold made for the purpose but as long as you make sure the cylinders are properly sealed after loading, it should be safe. Really depends on cylinder vs mold dimensions. If you have a sizer to tweek them, it will save the loading arm screws some wear and tear.

[Sasquatch-1]

You dont want or need a GC for pure lead ,it loads fine unless you alloy and then it gets hard and you break stuff .Stay with pure and you cant lose /Ed

I was not advocating the use of a gas check, just the use of a bullet made for one. The rebate would allow the bullet a place to sit in the cylinder face while loading that a flat base bullet would not.

[SlippyRider]

Thanks for all the excellent info guys.
Im glad to learn its been done before and i appreciate the specific bullet suggestions.
I think youre really onto something with the gas check rebate, Sasquatch-1.

[SlippyRider]

Excellent consideration, Walks.
Thought i may be able to get creative with some kinda male conical tip for the end of my loading ram to protect a hollow point. Its a definite likelyhood of deforming a hollowpoint bullet during the loading process.

I know many consider a pure lead hollow point to be redundant, but i thought it would be cool to experiment with.

[SlippyRider]

Good thinking on a sizer, Johnnybar and Oyeboten.

[SlippyRider]

Hellgate, dondeago, Woodnbow, thanks for the mold suggestions.

[SlippyRider]

Charlieb, thanks for sharing your experience. Difficulty loading is a hurdle. Probably be a problem with most 45acp bullets.

[SlippyRider]

Edward, pure lead certainly opens up the possibilities. I am a bit worried about trying to shave way too much lead and/or deforming the bullet!

I suppose if i end up with a mold or two that are only really good for 45acp rounds its no tragedy.

[Soundguy]

If not a gas check slug.. could maybe put the bullet to an outside diameter chamfer tool.

Also.. check your cylinders.. some have chamfered mouths that instead of shaving lead.. actually swage them. I have an 1858 like that. You can seat a .454 ball them pull it to look, and it has a wide shiny band around it.. no shaved ring.. but rather swaged to fit with a 1/8" shiny sealed band around the ball. This was a kit gun.. not a finished piece etc.. so milage may vary...

[bedbugbilly]

1. Will they fit in the loading port under the ram . . . (If not removing cylinder to load)

2. Will they drop at the right diameter to insure a slight shear so they fit tight in the chamber (.454 minimum usually)

3. You never know till you try!

[Hellgate]

My Armi San Paulo/Euroarms Remingtons (in both 36 & 44 cal) have chamfered chamber mouths and indeed, do swage the ball or bullet used. Never a shaved ring. The Armi San Marcos and Ubertis shave rings unless I have chamfered the cylinder mouths to prevent ball migration when fired: some chambers will shave lead rings without making a good seal but chamfering them swages and seals better.

[Soundguy]

I agree I'd rather have a slightly tighter cylinder but with a chamfered mouth that would swage that ball all the way with a nice wide ring

[Good Cheer]

The old Lyman #45266 (AKA 452066) bevel base SWC works good in Dragoons and Walkers.

[Thundermaker]

I used to load 200gr SWC bullets in an ASM 1860. The mold has a bevel base, and I chambered the chamber mouths. They were quite accurate. I may get a 165 mold and try it.

[almar]

I tried mine some time ago and they didn't work, didn't clear the space to rotate under the ram. I have the 1851, dragoon, walker, Remington 1858, colt 1860. I finally bought a 250 gr heeled bullet from accurate and the Johnson and dow from eras gone.

[ofitg]

So, what would happen if you used something like the cast LEE 90350 bullet (.452/230 gr), loaded backwards?

I would expect the round nose to drop into the cylinder, with the first band sitting on the mouth of the chamber. This should provide clearance to rotate under the ram.

The powder charge would "see" a convex spherical surface, just as if you had loaded a round ball.

The other end of the bullet (now the forward end) would have a "wadcutter" profile.

[yeahbub]

There's a really easy way to "heel" any conventional .45 cal cast pistol boolit for use in C&B revolvers. All it takes is to remove the decapping stem from a .308/7x57/8x57/7.65x53/.30-06 sizing die, mount it in your press and put a Lee push-through stem from a boolit sizer die in the ram. Insert your lubed cast boolit base-first into the die and push it in deep enough that the base driving band is reduced to .445 or so and it will drop right into your repro's ~.447 chambers. You'll need a long punch in through the top of the die and a dead-blow to pop them back out. The remaining driving bands will still be over chamber diameter and seat tightly. I use a Lee 8x57 die for this and the hole in the top will pass a 5/16" punch which doesn't ding up the soft booilts.

[Doughty]

There's a really easy way to "heel" any conventional .45 cal cast pistol boolit for use in C&B revolvers. All it takes is to remove the decapping stem from a .308/7x57/8x57/7.65x53/.30-06 sizing die, mount it in your press and put a Lee push-through stem from a boolit sizer die in the ram. Insert your lubed cast boolit base-first into the die and push it in deep enough that the base driving band is reduced to .445 or so and it will drop right into your repro's ~.447 chambers. You'll need a long punch in through the top of the die and a dead-blow to pop them back out. The remaining driving bands will still be over chamber diameter and seat tightly. I use a Lee 8x57 die for this and the hole in the top will pass a 5/16" punch which doesn't ding up the soft booilts.

This is pretty much how I do it with the Lee .452-200 RF. On the rountoit list is a purpose made die for this.

[Good Cheer]

I've used a H&I sizing die, just not pushing the boolit all the way into the die.

[Minerat]

Ruger suggests using a 0.454 bullet in the old army while recommending a .457 round ball. I found that using a SPG lubed 45 bullet sized to fit the cylinders with no wad works fine. In my case a 0.454 RCBS 45-250 FP over 35 gr of 3f black fits all cylinders just snug enough to be good without shaving.

[yeahbub]

Regarding the idea of a purpose-built die for heeling boolits, I plan to have one or two made, but there are a few different approaches. A 7/8-14 swage die to produce a two-diameter boolit after it's been conventionally sized and lubed, which also has the advantage of whatever custom nose configuration I care to have nose punches made for (thinking HP here). Another is a two-diameter H&I die which can be used to size, lube and produce a heel in the same tool, but it will still be a two-step operation, one to size and lube, another to back off the stop screw on the lube sizer so the heel band can be forced down into the minor diameter to produce the heel. Either can be used to convert pistol boolits from any conventional mold. I lean in this direction, which is no doubt, cheaper. Now, I'll habe to decide what heel diameter I need. Most of my C&B activity is with paper cartridges, so the heel should be .004-.005 under chamber diameter to allow the heel to drop in with the paper around it. On the other hand, using the 8x57 die allows me to already have whatever diameter I need. I may just sit tight for now. . . . .

[Sasquatch-1]

I was trying to figure out how this would work with a swaging die. In order to put the heel on the bullet there would have to be a recess cut into the bottom punch for the ogive die. I think with the pressure needed to completely form the base of the bullet you would have to run the lead fully into the die and would be stuck with whatever ogive you have the die made in.

This is with my experience with Dave Corbins "S" Press system.

[Onty]

I was not advocating the use of a gas check, just the use of a bullet made for one. The rebate would allow the bullet a place to sit in the cylinder face while loading that a flat base bullet would not.
This is a valid idea. The only problem for some shooters is that boolits .451 nominal dia, with GC, are on heavier side, almost all going from 250 grains and up.

[Good Cheer]

RCBS #45-225-CAV with the rear bands sized to slip into Walker chambers.
http://i.imgur.com/4haSkqz.jpg (https://imgur.com/4haSkqz)

[Good Cheer]

As someone noted above, reproduction revolvers don't always have a geometry to allow you to get any given bullet started straight. And, Pietta and Uberti have had very different ideas on what diameters should be used for their chambers. What it boils down to is each piece, be it alleged to be a Dance, a Walker, a Dragoon, 1851, 1858, 1860, 1861, .36 or .44 is a rule unto itself and has to be fed what it demands. But hey, cartridge revolvers are the same way. Percussion revolvers just have the advantage of using caseless ammunition!
:drinks:

This illustrates a design I started using in the 1970's in a 1861 marketed by Navy Arms with .370" diameter chambers. The mold started out as a Lee 9mm round nose. It slips into the chambers, it shoots great. Try to do the same thing scaled up to .44 and you'd probably be trying to move around too much lead.
http://i.imgur.com/bck0Epd.jpg (https://imgur.com/bck0Epd)

[Good Cheer]

This is a hobby and when reloading for a revolver I enjoy tinkering around, and because of that I don't like being limited in the number of molds that can be used. So from my side the real problem is that revolvers aren't made to use the off the shelf molds.