what do you consider accurate ?

[white eagle]

For your hunting needs?
I am struggling with a rifle and it is not getting down to where I like it
Which is about 1" for 3 shots at 100 yards.
once I get it set and make up a box and retest it either moves or not what I had previously
What say You?

[M-Tecs]

That depends on application. Varmints at 500 yards verse moose at short yardage.

Varmint rifles I want under 3/4" MOA for 10 shot groups.

Most bolt gun I want under 1" MOA for 5 shot groups.

Short range lever guns for deer under 100 yard 3" MOA is acceptable.

If the accuracy or lack of accuracy limits my intended usage it needs to be dealt with.

[slownsteady22]

For me, good enough is 3 inch group of 3 to 5 shots at 100 yards. My shots are 95 % of the time 45 yards or less, compound bow range for me.

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[Shawlerbrook]

A lot depends on what you are hunting and what type of rifle you are using. Three or five shot groups are nice to see that you are getting the most out of your gun, but the first shot within a couple inches of where I am aiming at 100 yards is my expectations with the leverguns I use the most for deer.

[Budzilla 19]

Hmmm, where to begin? Optic mounting, barrel free float, stock screw torque, ammo perfect as can be, just a few things to start with! Good luck, I know you’ll figure it out.

[versa-06]

Deer Rifle At 100 yds. 1 1/2 inch - 1 3/4 inch max. Per 5 round all cold barrel shots. Or it's back to the drawing board. I don't like to pass on a good deer looking around a tree.

[Winger Ed.]

With my heavy barreled, Rem700, .30-06- I call it good if I can consistently keep almost all shots touching
at 100 yards with Sierra Game Kings or their match HPs. With cast, I have a hard time doing much better than a 2 1/2 inch or so with 190 SPs.

Open sights on M1A- I'm happy with consistent 3" groups with GI 147FMJ or 170 RN cast.
Open sights on my Marlin .45-70- I must flinch or something, 3" with it and 405 FPs is doing real good for me.

These are with me shooting off sand bags on a concrete table.
I used to have a buddy that did noticeably better with the same rifles and same ammo.

[white eagle]

lets call it your deer rifle

[M-Tecs]

lets call it your deer rifle

When I deer hunt in the woods 75 yards is a very long shot. My 3 MOA pre-64 94 is more than adequate for that. When I hunt out west 300 yard shots are common. I have anchored wounded deer (shot by others) a couple of time at over 500 yards.

[Savvy Jack]

There is about a "12 inch square" kill zone on a normal size white tail. If you can consistently hit inside 12" at any distance, it will put meat in the freezer.

When taking an exam, all one typically needs to pass is a score of 70%. Anything better is just wasted effort!

[Jim22]

There is about a "12 inch square" kill zone on a normal size white tail. If you can consistently hit inside 12" at any distance, it will put meat in the freezer.

When taking an exam, all one typically needs to pass is a score of 70%. Anything better is just wasted effort!

I dunno. I agree with the 12" figure but I would call it a circle or something similar.

I have shot game at 30 yards on out to a couple hundred yards. The long shot was a moose at about 200. He was facing me. I was shooting a .400 cal Whelen clone that was sighted a couple inches high at 100 yards. I had a nice steady rest - a moss covered boulder. I held a little daylight between the top of his back and he went down with one 400 grain bullet. It was good because he was unsuspecting.

I think most large game is pretty easy to kill. You need to keep your boolits inside 10-12 inches. Whatever it takes to do that with your rifle will dictate your maximum practical range. I have also killed cottontails at 15 feet with a .22. Any decent rifle will do that.

I have tried hunting with handguns but gave up on it. It's just too hard to shoot them accurately even if they will shoot small groups from the bench.

Jim

[M-Tecs]

This is a 125" class archery whitetail. Field dressed it went 167 for weight. A 12" killzone is a little optimistic

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[Savvy Jack]

This is a 125" class archery whitetail. Field dressed it went 167 for weight. A 12" killzone is a little optimistic

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291766

12 inches from spine to heart.....yeap, meat on the table
12 inches from gut to shoulder....yeap, meat on the table

[Slugster]

Read somewhere that for a 100 yard deer rifle you just need to be able to put 10 shots into a 9" pie pan... offhand. I usually draw the line at 1.5" at 100 yards, benched and bagged.
Only accurate rifles are interesting. Forget who said that, but I am of the same mind.

[Zingger]

I believe it was Mr. Whelen who made that comment. My varmint rigs I want 1/2 to 3/4" out of. Hunting rifles- sub 1" for 3 off of rest. My Win 70 featherweight in 7mauser will do it, but just barely. But it is a heat-seeker for killing deer. When I am not overcome with buck/doe/deer fever that is. Seems like this year the safest place is in front of the bore. I haven't had much chance to get out and put rounds down- too many other things going on.

[Savvy Jack]

I can not figure out for the life of me how anyone killed anything before the advent of the boattail bullet!!

[Grayone]

Read somewhere that for a 100 yard deer rifle you just need to be able to put 10 shots into a 9" pie pan... offhand. I usually draw the line at 1.5" at 100 yards, benched and bagged.
Only accurate rifles are interesting. Forget who said that, but I am of the same mind.

I believe it was Colonel Townsend Wheeling (sp)?

[cwtebay]

You'll have to define your parameters. Yes hunting - yes deer rifle
Woods range at 200 yards or less? 3" at 100 yards is more than adequate as long as that 3" is your actual HUNTING shooting ability ( nerves, movement, shivering at -30°).
Lake side, deep draw whitetails? Headlands or open country mule deer? Sub moa is definitely desirable. Preferably through a quality optic on a rifle that you are extremely confident using out to 750 yards.... but realize that you can only responsibly fire at half that distance.

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[megasupermagnum]

12 inches from spine to heart.....yeap, meat on the table
12 inches from gut to shoulder....yeap, meat on the table

No sir. 1" to 3" is nothing but meat. Somewhere in that 3" to 5" range is spine. At 14" you MIGHT get lungs, but might not. 3" to 13" is the only reasonable kill zone. Lengthwise though, you have more leeway. From the front to back of the lungs is probably closer to that 14" range.

More realistic expectations should be to at least be able to hit lungs, with some leeway for error. My own personal limit (minimum) is 4", which allows some leeway in myself, and environmental factors. Most rifles meet this criteria just fine for reasonable ranges. Personally I have no problem with a rifle that is at least that accurate to just beyond its maximum point blank range. For example, a rifle I'm taking to the range tomorrow is a 308 Winchester, and with the load I'm using, will shoot plus or minus 2 1/2" to 250 yards. It will also shoot less than 4" groups at 300 yards which is the maximum range I'd want to shoot at without a lot more practice. For big game with a high velocity rifle, I see little reason to want better than MOA accuracy.

Another thing is I don't consider 3 shots a group. 3 shots is fine for sight in, but not much else. There's no reason to test long strings of shots for big game hunting, but if you shoot multiple 5 shot groups, and they measure 3/4", 1 1/4", 1 1/2", and 1", you don't have a 3/4" capable gun, you have a 1 1/8" average. You mention your groups moving. Your groups aren't moving, and you aren't getting fliers. You simply are not shooting as tight of groups as you think you are.

[444ttd]

since i only have one arm, i use a primos bipod and a three legged bog pod.

field shooting at a deer
open sights is around 4 - 5" at 150 yards(3 or 5 shots)

scope and cast boolits is around 2 - 3" at 150 yards(3 or 5 shots)

scope and jacketed bullets is 1 - 1 1/2" at 200 yards(3 or 5 shots)

most of my kills are around 30 - 50ish yards.

[dk17hmr]

The rifle I used this year was shooting 3" at 600..... And I shot my buck at sub 75 yards.

[414gates]

once I get it set and make up a box and retest it either moves or not what I had previously
What say You?

If factory ammo is available, the first test is to use that and see if the results are more consistent. If the factory ammo is more consistent, you can look to improving the reloads.

If the factory ammo is also not consistent, then it's a rifle issue. Stock fit, bedding, scope mounts, the scope itself - some part of the rifle may be causing the problem.

I once had an old .303 SMLE. Thinking back, that was around the time I started getting grey hairs. I would get it zeroed with a scope, and the next time at the range, it would refuse to touch anywhere on the paper. I never did figure out why, I just got rid of it.

[missionary5155]

We hunt river bottoms and 33 yards in 40 years is still my longest shot. Just last Friday evening I watched a 10 point big buck walk to 25 feet of me as he was watching one of the land owners beefy's out in the pasture. I was sitting in my ground blind downwind and smelling like an apple. Any blunderbuss would have done the job.

[dale2242]

When we are teaching our Hunter Ed classes here in SW Oregon we like to tell the students that if you can`t hit a 9" paper plate at the distance you are shooting , you are shooting too far.
I think think a 9" vitals area will cover the kill zone of any deer here in the US.
I`m sure we all want our loads to shoot better than 9 MOA.

[1006]

For a deer rifle in the woods: I want at least 2.0moa at 100yards. The gun I normally hunt with is a 30.06 Ruger MKII with a scope. It will easily meet the minimum requirement. I need it to be at least that accurate—so, I can wobble around another inch or so.

[Bnt55]

Everyone for the most part sights in at 100yds, and usually shoots a deer at 40 yds or less. I don't think I would be hunting with a gun that can keep them in a pie plate, for my peace of mind I would divide that area by two or what I like to call "a softball" at 100 yds, even then I would still try to dial it down if I was using optics. Open sights?.....at 100 yds I would be happy if I could keep the boolit in my zip code! LOL

[ABJ]

Since you asked for deer rifle and a sight in at 100 yds I will assume your long shot will be out to 150 give or take. My next question is what caliber and boolit weight and at what speed. Example... my 45-70 hunting load with a 300 RF is 1200 at the muzzle. I zero at 100 which is my longest shot and CTC for 3 shots is less than 1.5 inches. Until I checked my POI at a longer distance I would not take a longer shot. In the same circumstance's with my 35 Remington running a 200 at 1850 I would take a longer shot. Same accuracy on both rifles. I do shoot all my hunting loads with a cold barrel and one hot barrel shot just for piece of mind. BUT having said that I have never had to take a second shot on a deer, (knocking on wood) not that I am a world class shooter but I don't take a shot that I'm not 99% sure I can make. As a backup I carry a 44 special blackhawk for any needed shots under 50 yds.
My own personal concern is the cold barrel shots POI. In my area opening day lows are in the high 40's and highs in the high 60's. By closing day the lows can be teens and highs in the 40's. For most of my guns this makes no difference enough to matter out to 100. But I do have a couple that will throw the cold barrel shot 5/6 inches out when temps hit the 20's. So groups are not as important to me as cold barrel shots on hunting rifles.
Tony

[dverna]

For your hunting needs?
I am struggling with a rifle and it is not getting down to where I like it
Which is about 1" for 3 shots at 100 yards.
once I get it set and make up a box and retest it either moves or not what I had previously
What say You?

If you are using 3 shot groups, it will be difficult to dial in an a "good" load. There it too much variation, and one group may be good and the next group sucks. You need multiple 5 shot groups to establish an accurate load...no way around doing the work. Three shot groups will tell you if your load sucks but not if it is good.

If you are using 1" at 100 yards as your "standard" then I am guessing you are shooting jacketed bullets. IMO chasing a consistent 1 MOA load with cast bullets is a waste of time and resources...it is extremely difficult to accomplish.

As others have said, if you limit your shots to shorter ranges (under 150 yards), cast is OK and a 3-4 MOA load will suffice. I suspect if most folks were honest, 3-4 MOA is what their are getting with cast bullets. Ignore the "wallet groups" that get posted. And by "honest", I mean the average of five 5 shot groups with "fliers" counted...not the cherry picked group. But heck...good enough is good enough.

If you NEED 1 MOA, buy jacketed bullets.



Here is how I test with jacketed bullets. I start with a COL that has a .020" distance between the bullet and the lands and a powder known to be accurate in the cartridge. I load 5 rounds in .3-.5 powder weight increments. Start at the low end and work my way up.

I fire three shots and if those group well, I fire the other two. If not, I pull the bullets and salvage the components. I work my way up until I reach the maximum for that powder/bullet or see sings of pressure.

I then see if there is an accuracy "window" where two or three groups have shot well. Using the average powder weight of that "window", I load up 10 rounds (confirmation load) and fire two 5 shot groups. If those group well, I load up 25 and shoot five 5 shot groups. That is "the load". If the 10 round confirmation loads do not perform as expected, I shoot five shot groups with powder charges above and below the average powder weight (established above). If that fails, I switch to a different bullet first and then to a different powder.

If you want to do less loading and shooting, look up using a load ladder.

https://www.loaddevelopment.com/load-development-ladder-test-method/

I have no confidence in load ladders but many swear by them. My issue is that there is enough shot to shot variation that I do not trust the results at 100 yards and I do not have a 300 yard range to play on. Plus I do not like using a chronograph. I like shooting groups and in the end you need to shoot groups anyway.

[Savvy Jack]

No sir. 1" to 3" is nothing but meat. Somewhere in that 3" to 5" range is spine. At 14" you MIGHT get lungs, but might not. 3" to 13" is the only reasonable kill zone. Lengthwise though, you have more leeway. From the front to back of the lungs is probably closer to that 14" range.

More realistic expectations should be to at least be able to hit lungs, with some leeway for error. My own personal limit (minimum) is 4", which allows some leeway in myself, and environmental factors. Most rifles meet this criteria just fine for reasonable ranges. Personally I have no problem with a rifle that is at least that accurate to just beyond its maximum point blank range. For example, a rifle I'm taking to the range tomorrow is a 308 Winchester, and with the load I'm using, will shoot plus or minus 2 1/2" to 250 yards. It will also shoot less than 4" groups at 300 yards which is the maximum range I'd want to shoot at without a lot more practice. For big game with a high velocity rifle, I see little reason to want better than MOA accuracy.

Another thing is I don't consider 3 shots a group. 3 shots is fine for sight in, but not much else. There's no reason to test long strings of shots for big game hunting, but if you shoot multiple 5 shot groups, and they measure 3/4", 1 1/4", 1 1/2", and 1", you don't have a 3/4" capable gun, you have a 1 1/8" average. You mention your groups moving. Your groups aren't moving, and you aren't getting fliers. You simply are not shooting as tight of groups as you think you are.

Millions of animals killed long before 1" accuracy.

Ethical Kill vs Meat in the freezer

[white eagle]

apparently I have set up a parameter that is really problematic
I have always strived for and most often attained a 1"or less with custom handloads
but after hearing all of you my goal may have been a we bit high
I feel a whole bunch better about my current rifle and handloads as of now they are a
consistent 1.5" @ 100 yards with a 225 gr ballistic tip and a bit bigger with 225 gr Sierra's
3 shot groups works for me everyone has there own way of doing things
been using 3 shot groups for as long as I have been handloading
I am a hunter first a target shooter second never had a deer stand for 5 shots so
the first shot is what counts for me cold barrel accuracy not warm barrel accuracy

[memtb]

For my hunting firearms from rest. My revolver ( 3 moa red dot sight) 460 S&W 8 3/8”, using my 400 grain cast bullets - sub 4” 5 shot groups @ 100 yards. My Marlin GG 45-70 using my 430 grain cast bullets - sub 1 11/2” 5 shot groups @ 100 yards. My primary hunting rifle - using 250 grain Barnes TTSX bullets, sub 2”, 3 shot groups @ 300 yards. memtb

[Geezer in NH]

A group is not made of 3 shots IMHO. 5 is bare min to be called a group 10 is better.

IMHO the 3 shotter's are afraid to fire more as the know it will grow in size Just MHO

[M-Tecs]

What is the point of shooting a group? What information do you need from it? I build NRA service and match rifles. I need to know what they will do from cold bore too hot with a ten shot string in 60 seconds. I have a Savage 99 that is solely a hunting rifle. It starts walking really bad after the third quick shot. It shoots very nice three shot group. Not so much for 5 and forget 10. Since it will never fire more than 3 shots hunting 3 shot groups are fine for that application.

Kind of the point of the whole thread. What do you need for your specific application?

[444ttd]

apparently I have set up a parameter that is really problematic
I have always strived for and most often attained a 1"or less with custom handloads
but after hearing all of you my goal may have been a we bit high
I feel a whole bunch better about my current rifle and handloads as of now they are a
consistent 1.5" @ 100 yards with a 225 gr ballistic tip and a bit bigger with 225 gr Sierra's
3 shot groups works for me everyone has there own way of doing things
been using 3 shot groups for as long as I have been handloading
I am a hunter first a target shooter second never had a deer stand for 5 shots so
the first shot is what counts for me cold barrel accuracy not warm barrel accuracy

thats me, i am a hunter. i used to do (non-competitive) target shooting that was measured in .001". the best group i ever did was .179" at 100 yards that was a tc encore with 23" heavy factory barrel in 20 vartarg using 32gr hornady v-max with a charge of rel7 with 10 shots and on the bench and they were CAREFUL handloads, trimmed to a specific length, outside neck turner, weighing cases and bullet to be the same...........all that "fun" shi........i mean stuff:shock:. i was averaging around a .220-.230" group. now its a average 1/2 - 3/4" group at 100 yards (5 shots/sandbags) with 34gr hp(either midway or midsouth, depends on who cheaper) and rel7.

i use a 9.3x57 and a 35/30-30 with cast boolits. the 9.3x57 is using a 275gr wfn gc with imr4895 and it goes around one inch at 100 yards(5 shots/bench). i never did the chrony on the 9.3. it is wearing a 2-7x leopold. the 35/30 is using a 200gr fn gc with 2400/dacron and it goes 1726fps and it will go 3/4 - 1 1/2" at 100 yards(5 shots/bench) with aperture sights.

i'm just a average shooter. i used to above average, but i had a stroke about 10 years ago. it took me a LONG time just to be average shooter, flinching was the worst problem i had/has after the stroke. long range isn't fer me, i hunt, although i sit alot in my stands!!! in my area, i'd say that 125 yard shot is a long one. the longest shot i ever did was around 375+ yards(back before the laser range finder things) on a doe. the shortest shot was 12 feet on a 8pt.

[memtb]

A group is not made of 3 shots IMHO. 5 is bare min to be called a group 10 is better.

IMHO the 3 shotter's are afraid to fire more as the know it will grow in size Just MHO



Geezer, I have to agree.....if we are referring to load development. The groups that I referred to were previously developed loads......the groups fired were to verify my hunting zeros! And yes, more shots would likely increase group size. That said, I have rarely fired more than 2 shots at game. The 3 shot group mentioned uses 93 + grains of powder per shot and the projectiles are about a buck each.....components are expensive and limited! In this case 3 shots serves the purpose, or at least my purpose! memtb

[M-Tecs]

I have a farmer/rancher friend that views his rifle as a tool and nothing more. Its a 270 Remington 700ADL. I installed the scope and glass bedded it in the mid-70's. We sighted it in at the time. Every year he takes one shot to confirm POI. He kills a buck, a gratis tag buck and a bonus doe every year plus a bunch of coyotes. His one shot yearly group works well for him. He purchased 40 boxes of Rem Coreloks for $2.00 a box in the early 80's when the hardware store went out of business. He still has about half remaining.

[Harter66]

Weigh your matching headstamp cases ...........
I won't tell the whole thing anymore , long/short I had a very touchy about case volume rifle . My fliers weren't fliers they were a different case volume by about 1 pellet of #6 shot . You can't imagine the frustration of 3 shots with less than a dia between them and 2 kissing but 12" away at 100 yd ......

Long ago the Winchester ads read " For a moment the whole world is a 4" circle" . That's about as true as anything else . I've long struggled to get 1.5 MOA , and my favorite rifle would deliver that ......... Until that summer that I plotted every target on a centered bull .
I don't what I expected from a 1965 Savage 110LH with an $89 Tasco Pronghorn on it . I'd shoot 1.5" groups of 5 every trip ........ At the end of the summer I had about 300 rounds plotted on a single target compiled from 20-25 rounds per Saturday for 3.5 months the circle was 3.5" .

I had plenty of confidence that out to 400 yd I could put the first one where it needed to go and a second or 3rd if it was needed .
To ensure that I was developing focus I would slam a 20oz Coke on the 10 minute drive to the range set up my bench sling the rifle and long leg it out to set the 100 yd trot to the 200 yd and walk as fast as I could back to the bench and shoot from a field position , sitting , kneeling , post leaning , or over the pack anything but sitting at the bench or prone . In the field it paid off , it is really hard to shoot when you force a breathing hold and the scope blacks out because you're heart is racing and you're not getting enough fresh air ........ Good times .

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I was happy to have my .44 mag rifle do 3" @ 100 yards. Plenty good enough for my whitetail needs.

[dverna]

A group is not made of 3 shots IMHO. 5 is bare min to be called a group 10 is better.

IMHO the 3 shotter's are afraid to fire more as the know it will grow in size Just MHO

These are the reasons people shoot 3 shot groups:

They are not capable of shooting accurately.
Their guns are not accurate.
Their loads are not accurate.
They cannot afford to shoot.
To confirm sight settings have not changed once they have developed, and proven an accurate load.

[444ttd]

I was happy to have my .44 mag rifle do 3" @ 100 yards. Plenty good enough for my whitetail needs.

hearsay!!!!! pagan!!!! disbeliever!!!!!! heathen!!!!!!! infidel!!!!!!! unbeliever!!!!!! 3"?!!!!!!! it better do sub minute group at 600 yards with 20 shots!!!!!!!!!


i used to be "one of those guys" too. "if it can't do a sub minute groups of 10 or 20 shots, get rid of it." i would say. been there, done that.

today, i took my encore rifle with a 23" barrel in 500 linebaugh with 450gr lfn gc and hs-6(goes 1235fps) and i sighted it in at 50 yards. its 3" high and about 1 1/4" group(3 shots). its going to be my truck gun this season. on rainy days, i go out into the game lands, park my truck and wait fer deer. (i have a disability permit). 75 yards will be a long shot, but it will probably be 30-40 yards. last year i took the 500L out to the range and sighted it in at 100 yards and i believe the 5 shot group was around 2 3/4 - 3"+/-. i took it to the 50 yard target to find out how high it was and it was about 3+" high.

if i was good at pistol shooting, i'd take my ruger sbh(4 5/8" barrel) in 44 mag and 280gr wfn with unique. but i'm not good with it at 100 yards. my one armed butt isn't good at 50 yards, but if a deer comes in to 30 yards, its mine. my group size is about 4" at 35 yards. at 40 yards, it all goes to pot. 6+'" is the group size. (my brother can shoot 3" at 50 yards, 5 shots with same gun and loads).

3" at 100 yards with 3 shots in a revolver type caliber is good enuff fer me.

[white eagle]

These are the reasons people shoot 3 shot groups:

They are not capable of shooting accurately.
Their guns are not accurate.
Their loads are not accurate.
They cannot afford to shoot.
To confirm sight settings have not changed once they have developed, and proven an accurate load.


they are confident enough that they don't need to be wasting time shooting more than needed
they hit where they need to
they dont need a follow up shot
they don't need to paint with a broad brush

[versa-06]

If I can get 5 cold bore shots where I want them, A 3-round group after this should be sufficient. I don't think anything will stay around for round 4. I try to always have a cold bore during set up. Takes a lot of time, but I live right beside my own range.

[cwtebay]

I think M-Tecs makes an excellent point. I didn't realize for a long time that guys shot groups (3 or 27 for that matter) without letting the barrel cool. My "groups" are typically 5-10 shots over an hour or so.
I also don't understand how shooting sub moa groups from a bench with sandbags prepares you for hunting where shots are generally taken quickly and offhand (beyond zeroeing the rifle).
I am a firm believer in making the first shot count, and have never understood how the 3rd shot meant much of anything in the hunting world.
My practice is generally done offhand with my open sighted rifles - if I can't get it done doing that, I probably don't have much business shooting at game.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[versa-06]

Key Words; Beyond zeroeing the rifle.

[dverna]

Some interesting reasons for justifying why we do things.

Some reasons are shocking....like not wasting time shooting more than needed.

But I can prove my point about three shot groups by suggesting a simple exercise that will not waste too much time. It is also relatively inexpensive. All you need is a .22, a box of decent ammunition plus 5 “warmers”, and a 50 yard range.

First, make up 5 identical targets with the aiming point in the same spot. Fire 5 warmers into a separate target. Then fire three shots on the first target and measure the group. Then affix the second target over the first, shoot three shots and measure the group. Do the same with third, fourth and five target. When done, measure the group of 15 shots on the first target. Compare the size of your 3 shot groups to the 15 shot group.

Now, prepare three targets as above and do the same exercise using 5 shot groups. Again 15 rounds will be expended.

Lastly, prepare two targets as above. Shoot a ten shot group on the first...measure. Then put the seconded target over the first and shoot the last ten shots. Compare the 2 ten shot groups sizes to the 20 shot group.

If, after doing this, you find that three shot groups are able to predict the accuracy of your gun and load, you have a match quality rifle, shooting match quality ammunition and an exceptional marksman on the trigger.

I doubt many people will waste the time. Like that statement in the movie, “You can’t handle the truth!” And the truth is....an excellent three shot group will not tell you much about accuracy.

I will make a prediction....the 15 shot group will be three times larger than your best three shot group.

Accuracy is relatively unimportant for most hunters. In 5 years, our 6 member camp has only harvested two deer at over 200 yards. If a 1 MOA three shot group is actually a 3 MOA load, it does not matter....unless you need to reach out past 300 yards.

[dh2]

I would first check my scope and bedding if the point of impact changes, the trouble may not be the ammo.
For my deer hunting if in the swamp my 45/70 a group of 3 at 100 yards less than 2 inches, in this case bear and pig is also posable.
for more open country my 280 AI a group of 3 at 100 yards less than 3/4 inch keeps finding yearling doe's this year.

[Winger Ed.]

[QUOTE=cwtebay;5300497]I also don't understand how shooting sub moa groups from a bench with sandbags prepares you for hunting where shots are generally taken quickly and offhand (beyond zeroeing the rifle).


It eliminates a couple of variables, builds confidence, and lets you know the rifle is doing its part.

Shooting is like riding a motorcycle, or flying an airplane--- the more you do it, the better you get.
The more practice you do with getting a sight picture & alignment, trigger control, the better you will be out in the woods too.

I'd heard somewhere:
If you hear a shot in the woods--- somebody probably got a deer.
Two shots--- somebody might have gotten a deer.
Three shots---- somebody missed a deer, and it ran off.

[cwtebay]

[QUOTE=cwtebay;5300497]I also don't understand how shooting sub moa groups from a bench with sandbags prepares you for hunting where shots are generally taken quickly and offhand (beyond zeroeing the rifle).


It eliminates a couple of variables, builds confidence, and lets you know the rifle is doing its part.

Shooting is like riding a motorcycle, or flying an airplane--- the more you do it, the better you get.
The more practice you do with getting a sight picture & alignment, trigger control, the better you will be out in the woods too.

I'd heard somewhere:
If you hear a shot in the woods--- somebody probably got a deer.
Two shots--- somebody might have gotten a deer.
Three shots---- somebody missed a deer, and it ran off.You are correct!!!! I could have been more succinct in my "zeroeing" remark. Assuming one has taken the time to familiarize oneself with his firearm of choice (zero, sight picture, sight acquisition, etc), my opinion still stands that shooting from a sand bagged bench / lead sled / ad nauseum will make sure that one is an excellent marksman......when conditions are perfect.
Your analogy to piloting an aircraft is excellent!! Would you say that hour upon hour of flight simulators or perfect early morning flying hours prepair you for actual real world flying conditions? They didn't when I got my license.
I'm not trying to put a burr under anyone's saddle, only saying that practice is only as good as what that practice prepares you for - and that's just my opinion.

(I had heard somewhere - one shot meat, 2 shots beat - and that's meant in jest!!)


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[Winger Ed.]

[QUOTE=cwtebay;5300700][QUOTE=Winger Ed.;5300693] Would you say that hour upon hour of flight simulators or perfect early morning flying hours prepair you for actual real world flying conditions?


Well,,,,,,, yes, and no... Sort of like when a 15 yr. old kid has to take driver's education.
I'd figure it was one of those deals where you'd be better off with that practice, than you would be without it.

I'm reminded----
One of the old, old hangers at MCAF Quantico had a big sign painted on the wall.
That hanger was where WWI era sea planes were parked, some of the research and development of jet engines was done, etc.

The sign read something like:
"Aviation in not inherently dangerous. However; it is very unforgiving of even the slightest transgression"

On another wall was:
"Aviation is comprised of endless hours of boredom, accented by seconds of stark terror".

[cwtebay]

[QUOTE=cwtebay;5300700][QUOTE=Winger Ed.;5300693] Would you say that hour upon hour of flight simulators or perfect early morning flying hours prepair you for actual real world flying conditions?


Well,,,,,,, yes, and no... Sort of like when a 15 yr. old kid has to take driver's education.
I'd figure it was one of those deals where you'd be better off with that practice, than you would be without it.

I'm reminded----
One of the old, old hangers at MCAF Quantico had a big sign painted on the wall.
That hanger was where WWI era sea planes were parked, some of the research and development of jet engines was done, etc.

The sign read something like:
"Aviation in not inherently dangerous. However; it is very unforgiving of even the slightest transgression"

On another wall was:
"Aviation is comprised of endless hours of boredom, accented by seconds of stark terror".Well said Winger Ed

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[M-Tecs]

For your hunting needs?
I am struggling with a rifle and it is not getting down to where I like it
Which is about 1" for 3 shots at 100 yards.
once I get it set and make up a box and retest it either moves or not what I had previously
What say You?

The OP is asking specifically about hunting and later stated deer hunting accuracy.

It always suprises me how many believe there is only one "correct" way.

Accuracy can be measured in many different ways and some methods are statistically superior. That being said the only only real statistic that matters when hunting is the kill to recovery rates. One shot one kill is just that and it matters little if it comes from a 1/4" MOA or a 2" MOA firearm. Understanding both the shooters and the equipment limitations and operating within them is just as import or more important than the difference between 1 cold bore shot, 3 shot, 5 shot, 10 shot or more.

[HD.375]

lets call it your deer rifle

some of my deer rifles are scoped, an some are lever gun opens, :D

1 inch for the scoped i like, but il take 2 inch hunting scoped .. at 100m

with the opens, 4-5 inches for 3 shots is good

[JLF]

5 shots within a 5 centimeter diameter circle at 100 meters, enough to kill anything.

[savagetactical]

A group is not made of 3 shots IMHO. 5 is bare min to be called a group 10 is better.

IMHO the 3 shotter's are afraid to fire more as the know it will grow in size Just MHO

This isn't quite correct . when you are dealing with a lightweight or ultralight weight hunting rifle that will be carried far more in it's life than shot a 3 shot group is more than adequate to determine its accuracy.

Never in my life have I fired more than twice at an animal and usually the second shot is to end it's suffering and has only been fired when the first did not put it down as intended . If you are on a target range I agree that a 9 shot group with a cold bore shot is a good metric for accuracy and precision .

In hunting situation though the cold bore shot is the one which matters most because that is the shot that will take the meat or not . Your mileage may vary , but I have yet to see a gun which will not shift its point of impact after a cold bore shot . Accuracy and precision aren't the same thing and it's nice to have both , but in a hunting rifle I would much rather have one that delivers the bullet accurately to guarantee a clean kill vs one that can place all the bullets into one hole repeatedly after a fouling or cold bore shot.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

We had a 4" gong at the 100 yard range at our club. I used to take my deer rifle there before deer season and give it a good whack. Was good to go then.

[Prodigal Son]

291947for me this is good enough to take deer and other critters!

[versa-06]

Prodigal son; Those 1st 2-shots were they cold bore or fouling shots & the rest of the group elevated after barrel warm or did you move your sight point of impact?

[Rapier]

Depends on the type of action and caliber, my heavy bolt guns about 1”, my light bolt guns about .5, my ARs about 3/4”, my single shots about .5”

With casting, everything effects accuracy, lube, alloy, consistency, powder, primers, brass, etc. One thing many fail to notice in a reduced load is powder location in the case. I started using fillers for low density loads, improved accuracy consistancy.

[Prodigal Son]

It was a warm summer day, but the 1st two were, Gun just bore sighted! Made a correction and over corrected to high! The 4th was to the right at 3 o'clock, one click left and the next five grouped to the left of center, but hits wear I aim, kills deer too!

[versa-06]

P-Son; Thanks for update, That load will hunt.

[brass410]

We had a 4" gong at the 100 yard range at our club. I used to take my deer rifle there before deer season and give it a good whack. Was good to go then.

I tried this and everybody was laughin at me cause I must have looked kinda goofy swingin that rifle at the gong LOL!!

[Beerd]

We had a 4" gong at the 100 yard range at our club. I used to take my deer rifle there before deer season and give it a good whack. Was good to go then.


I tried this and everybody was laughin at me cause I must have looked kinda goofy swingin that rifle at the gong LOL!!

hope you called for cease fire first ;)
..

[Prodigal Son]

It does well!