Used Coffee Grounds as Case Filler

[Wilderness]

A few years ago there was some discussion of used coffee grounds (UCG) as a case filler. I have seen no mention of such recently. Does anyone else have any experience using UCG as a filler?

My experience was that UCG compresses down into a fraction of its "free" volume. To get a solid fill with no further "give" may require filling the case, then tamping, then adding some more.

The second point to note is that the UCG need to be truly dry. I had an instance of 100 + fps velocity loss in .32-20 that I attributed to incomplete drying or perhaps moisture uptake after initial drying. The answer is to apply some microwave before using.

I cannot comment on the tendency or otherwise of UCG to go solid under compression - an assertion that has been made for other organic fillers.

I have also used Precision Spherical Buffer as a filler. It was good, but I found the smell of burning plastic obnoxious. I've run out of it anyway, and it's expensive to import a small quantity.

In general I am not a fan of fillers, having ringed one chamber with a dacron assisted load, however I am prepared to play with fully compressed fillers.

[Nobade]

I have tried spent coffee as a filler, and as you discovered it is hard to get it completely dry. Even when it looks dried it will still grow mold. It does seem to make a decent filler though, and I've never had any problem when using it. And it does smell better than plastic. Any more I end up using WC872 or some other super slow ball powder as filler. In the small amounts used it doesn't add much energy to the shot and doesn't clump up like some others on the backside of the neck. "Reactive filler" I call it.

[mehavey]

...it is hard to get it completely dry....UCG are not hard to get dry (oven will do that just fine).
They are hydroscopic and hard to keep dry.
As a filler in a sealed case, no big deal.

Also, as a powder positioner, no need to tamp "solid"
Just load to slightest compression so nothing shifts around.

[Nobade]

UCG are not hard to get dry (oven will do that just fine).
They are hydroscopic and hard to keep dry.
As a filler in a sealed case, no big deal.

Also, as a powder positioner, no need to tamp "solid"
Just load to slightest compression so nothing shifts around.

Good point...

[rockrat]

I use Grits or Polenta in my 45-70. Does smell like burnt cereal when you shoot though:bigsmyl2:

[mehavey]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/78/dc/8c/78dc8c40389fd9c391691c5c875c4e7a.jpg

[GregLaROCHE]

Lots of people over here use a wheat cereal similar to cream of wheat. I use it when making loads for my paper cartridges for my Chassepot, that have to be stiff and solid to work. You have to adjust the amount for each round, because the amount the powder and filler compresses determine the overall length of the paper cartridge, which is critical.

[303Guy]

I've had success with sieved wheat bran. One rifle has a radiused shoulder that collets a ring or bran residue but the others don't do that (303Brit). So then I tried wheat germ. That flows much better and is lighter. However, it does go off over time. The idea of coffee grounds is appealing but I don't have any and I have basically gone to using a very light tuft of dacron as a powder positioner. Shot buffer has been suggested to me but it's pretty expensive.

Another filler that JeffinNZ sent me once were wads made from wool. I do not remember the results on target but I do remember the smell. :mrgreen:

I once played around with cotton wool and being aware of it's ability to set the felt on fire, I did experiments with it. Sure enough, I got it to burn and will definitely set dry grass on fire but only under certain conditions. In some conditions it just blows out as fluff.

Now hearing about ringing of a chamber with dacron, I'm wondering what is going on? I have seen boolit rear section riveting into the gap between case mouth and lead but I put that down to too soft an alloy and the bullet nose sitting against the lead causing initial engraving resistance. Giving the boolit enough jump solved that problem.

[Slugster]

I use Cream of Wheat or Farina which I think is the generic name. Both work. Have only used it in straight wall cases though.

[Wilderness]

I've had success with sieved wheat bran. One rifle has a radiused shoulder that collets a ring or bran residue but the others don't do that (303Brit). So then I tried wheat germ. That flows much better and is lighter. However, it does go off over time. The idea of coffee grounds is appealing but I don't have any and I have basically gone to using a very light tuft of dacron as a powder positioner. Shot buffer has been suggested to me but it's pretty expensive.

Another filler that JeffinNZ sent me once were wads made from wool. I do not remember the results on target but I do remember the smell. :mrgreen:

I once played around with cotton wool and being aware of it's ability to set the felt on fire, I did experiments with it. Sure enough, I got it to burn and will definitely set dry grass on fire but only under certain conditions. In some conditions it just blows out as fluff.

Now hearing about ringing of a chamber with dacron, I'm wondering what is going on? I have seen boolit rear section riveting into the gap between case mouth and lead but I put that down to too soft an alloy and the bullet nose sitting against the lead causing initial engraving resistance. Giving the boolit enough jump solved that problem.

303Guy - interested in your rivetting observation as it applies to mismatch between case length and chamber length, as in most .30-30s. I tried some longer cases (reformed WW .38-55) of near identical case weight and neck thickness to what I was using (Winchester .30-30) in a 2.120" chamber and got 50 fps LESS velocity. Have not investigated further but wonder if rivetting/non-rivetting could explain the velocity difference. Shorter cases leave about .080" of the bullet shank unsupported. Bullets in both instances were hard alloy seated hard on to the rifling. Do you have any velocity/pressure insights on rivetting?

Re fillers, my Dad's generation used horse manure in .32-20 and .25-20 to make their black powder go further. Probably smelled better than plastic too. Wool felt was regarded as THE BEST traditional shotgun wadding. Raw wool would have the advantage (?) of spraying some lanolin around in the barrel.

My objection to loose fillers is the suspicion that they could allow passage through the filler of a pressure wave, which in itself would be exacerbated by the powder being held to the back of the case by the filler. In the absence of a filler there would seem to be a better chance that powder would be thrown around at ignition, regardless of where it started in the case, thus avoiding the pressure wave. This is the alternate explanation for ringed chambers, the original one being that the filler acts as a bullet and the bullet as a bore obstruction. Either way, it only has to go wrong once in however many thousand shots. I can tell you that ringing a chamber on something nice is a saddening and cautionary experience.

[porthos]

i think anything other than dacron filler is a risk.

[mehavey]

Try a piece of starch-based packing p-nut. It turns into dust upon powder ignition

(I use a whole p-nut for the 458WinMag, and cut it into quarters for the 45-3¼/placed
atop the 5744/under a Paul Jones 540 Creedmore)

[Wilderness]

i think anything other than dacron filler is a risk.

Dacron filler is precisely what ringed my chamber, hence the interest in other systems.

[georgerkahn]

In past years I've tried/used Dacron, cream of wheat, and a few others -- never coffee grounds (albeit, as a coffee-drinking-addict I amass tons of them ;)). Maybe 15 years back I found a product named Puff-Lon (http://www.pufflon.com/newfront.html) which has done me quite well! Its only (very minor) drawback -- in my use -- is that with some loadings there will be a few particles of the stuff "all over the place" after shooting -- most noticeable when benchresting. I kind of like the stuff, though, and it is all I use as a ballistic filler.291729 I have an old Redding powder measure I keep filled with the stuff, and use it to add/fill cases as necessary with it.
geo

[mehavey]

I would try Puff-Lon, but it appears to be unavailable via the usual sources (Amazon, Buff Arms, etc)
Any other sources other than Puff-Lon itself which requires Pay-Pay only?

RELATED QUESTION:
Has anyone ever figured what's really going on with ringed chamber?
Assuming the powder could kept at the bottom with a totally weightless/dimensionless disk of unobtanium, would that still produce a shock wave?

I'm trying to figure out if
- It's the powder simply being kept in to position for initial ignition (and being blown forward/dispersed from that point by the primer); or...
- An actual mass effect/impact if the powder is retained by anything at ignition (even a semi-weightless corn-starch disk)

So far in all my years I've only heard anecdotal theories.
(not that some of them might be right :veryconfu )

[waksupi]

I would try Puff-Lon, but it appears to be unavailable via the usual sources (Amazon, Buff Arms, etc)
Any other sources other than Puff-Lon itself which requires Pay-Pay only?

RELATED QUESTION:
Has anyone ever figured what's really going on with ringed chamber?
Assuming the powder could kept at the bottom with a totally weightless/dimensionless disk of unobtanium, would that still produce a shock wave?

I'm trying to figure out if
- It's the powder simply being kept in to position for initial ignition (and being blown forward/dispersed from that point by the primer); or...
- An actual mass effect/impact if the powder is retained by anything at ignition (even a semi-weightless corn-starch disk)

So far in all my years I've only heard anecdotal theories.
(not that some of them might be right :veryconfu )

A ringed chamber is an indication you nearly had a SEE episode.

[Char-Gar]

Any organic material used as a filler can attracts moisture and either expand, moving the bullet forward or form a hard plug. A hard plug in a bottleneck case can be very dangerous. Please note, I said "can" and not "will". In years gone by, we have fought the "filler wars" on this board and we just finally wore the subject out. "Everything old is new again.". I have used PSB shot shell buffer, but that is all I have and ever will use.

[mehavey]

... ringed chamber is an indication you nearly had a SEE episode....True though it may be. it doesn't answer the question of what is happening, nor why -- especially in straightwall cases.
- Is fast powder being held in position -- however lightly and with whatever material -- the culprit ? or...
- Is it the positioning material itself-- of whatever kind, weight, volume...?


Haven't even broached "filler" aspect -- just positioning.




.

[444ttd]

In general I am not a fan of fillers, having ringed one chamber with a dacron assisted load, however I am prepared to play with fully compressed fillers.


it sounds as if you had a WAD of dacron instead of a TUFT of dacron. i use a TUFT of dacron in my 444 marlin and 35/30-30. i have spent 2 or 3000 rounds that way and i am still waiting on the "ring"!!![smilie=l:

using dacron
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?109280-The-proper-use-of-fillers

[country gent]

Coffee grounds as filler and bacon grease for lube you will have the entire range heading to MacDonalds for breakfast. LOL

[Texas by God]

Coffee grounds as filler and bacon grease for lube you will have the entire range heading to MacDonalds for breakfast. LOLDon't forget the cream of wheat for the "dentally challenged"......[emoji16]

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[Jack Stanley]

Coffee grounds as filler and bacon grease for lube you will have the entire range heading to MacDonalds for breakfast. LOL

Now THAT'S funny !! I don't care what the vegetarians say !!!

Only experience I have with fillers in the recent past was with the .303 British and a discontinued Reloder powder that I don't remember the number of . The load filled to about halfway up the neck accuracy failed and it still smoked the case a lot with a 185 grain bullet . I backed the charge down a little added attrition milled corn cobs and started working back up . Eventually got to 1920 feet per second and good accuracy from the rifle .

Jack

[dverna]

I recall Larry Gibson posting on the subject and those posts/threads are likely worth reading. I bought a roll of batting after reading his stuff. But my interests changed and I never tried the filler.

It is interesting that Ed Harris came up with "The Load" using Red Dot. And he advised NOT using Dacron or fillers with that load. That work was centered around .30 cal military cases but that was what I was planning to play with. And as a trap shooter I had many pounds of Promo/RD. If I ever go down that rabbit hole, I will use Promo and keep it simple.

As to using coffee grounds, that seems silly when Dacron is so cheap, easy to get, well tested, and effective.

[mehavey]

Red Dot is so fast, it doesn't need positioning.
On the other hand... 42gr of 5744 in a 45-3¼ Sharps under a 540 Paul Jones had definite "Click 1,001, 1002, 100.. BANG!" reaction (big time).
That's when a thin ¼-piece of starch peanut (½-grain) goes down the case to position the powder -- not take up volume.
1,650±06fps now.....

Which is why I asked the questions in POST #15 (https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?434254-Used-Coffee-Grounds-as-Case-Filler&p=5298914&viewfull=1#post5298914)
Any takers ?

[fiberoptik]

I find ucg an interesting filler in my mug. Often found at the bottom of the mug. Occasionally mixed in and swirling around with the liquid propellant called “Joe”! Cup☕️☕️☕️

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[Land Owner]

The Mayonnaise Jar and 2 Cups of Coffee (from the Net)

A professor stood before his philosophy class and had some items in front of him. When the class began, wordlessly, he picked up a very large and empty mayonnaise jar and proceeded to fill it with golf balls. He then asked the students if the jar was full. They naively agreed that it appeared to be.

The professor then picked up a box of pebbles and poured them into the jar. He shook the jar lightly. The pebbles rolled into the open areas between the golf balls. He then asked the students again if the jar was full. Through the visual maturity gained, they agreed now that it was.

The professor next picked up a box of sand and poured it into the jar. Of course, the sand filled up everything else. He asked once more if the jar was full. The surrised students responded "yes", it was now full.

The professor then produced two cups of coffee from under the table and poured the entire contents into the jar, effectively filling the empty space between the grains of sand. The students laughed in their understanding.

"Now," said the professor, " I want you to recognize that this jar represents your life."

"The golf balls are the important things -- your God, family, children, health, friends, and your favorite passions -- things that if everything else was lost and only they remained, your life would still be full.

“The pebbles are the other things that matter like your job, your house, and your car.

“The sand is everything else -- the small stuff.

"If you put the sand into the jar first," he continued, "there is no room for the pebbles or golf balls. The same goes for life. If you spend all your time and energy on the small stuff, you will never have room for the things that are important to you.

“Pay attention to the things that are critical to your happiness.
Play with your children.
Take time to get medical checkups.
Take your partner out to dinner.

There will always be time to clean the house and ‘fix the disposal’.

“Take care of the golf balls first -- the things that really matter. Set your priorities. The rest is just sand."

One student raised her hand and inquired what the coffee represented.

The professor smiled. "I'm glad that you asked. It just goes to show you that no matter how full your life may seem, there's always room for a couple of cups of coffee with a friend."


^^^^^^^^^^^^^

All of that (a good read) to further the proposition that UCG's are (skipping the golf balls) not "unlike" the pebbles, with many interstitial spaces, which COULD give rise to infiltration and migration of the powder charge (transportation vibration) throughout the UCG's. How that mixture of propellant and "space depleting but non-combustible material" react when set aflame by the primer is the true Tale of the Tape. Perhaps some non-projectile testing is in order...as well as a couple of cups of coffee among friends here on the Net to refresh and again discuss this sort of thing.