Weight of Solder Alloy

[odoh]

I've entered a dispute w/an ebay seller over the purchase of 50/50 bar solder. Rec'vd what I see as plain lead. Using the ball bearing/vise test w/a ww ingot, those that were suppied as 50/50 were significantly softer.

Now, I'm wondering what the std 1# ingot shud wgt if it were instead 50% tin? Periodic tables talk atomic wgt and not really meaningful to the dispute ~ those from the seller weigh in as 1#.

Thanks

[fourarmed]

If my calculations are correct this morning, the specific gravity of an alloy consisting of equal parts by weight of tin and lead should be about 8.9.

Weigh a chunk of the alloy. Then put a container of water on the scale and weigh it. Now tie a string to the chunk and lower it into the water until it is just submerged. Weigh the container again. The difference in the last two weights is the buoyant force of the water on the chunk. The weight of the chunk divided by the buoyant force is the specific gravity.

[randyrat]

Make a bullet out of pure/almost pure lead, weigh it. Then make a bullet out of your 50/50 bar and weigh it. You should see a difference.

[odoh]

Thanks for the attemp ~ I already know the wgt of the ingots, 1#. Question was: 50/50 cast in a typical lyman/saeco/rcbs/lee one pound mould would wgt how much?

I've no known 50/50 on hand to wgt and compare. I'm needing this info to add/make my case that the seller didn't supply as advertised. Already ascertained its not 50/50 but an additional point of fact won't hurt

Again, thanks

[odoh]

If my calculations are correct this morning, the specific gravity of an alloy consisting of equal parts by weight of tin and lead should be about 8.9. . . . . . . . . ..

So, thats like in oz? Like an 1# ingot would wgt a lil' over 1/2# of solder alloy. Sounds too light. His advertisement said he smelted 60# tin and 60# lead. So, that is by wgt and not volume. However, as the alloy is poured into the mould, its by volumne ~ perhaps your calc is correct afterall. Volumne wise, its predominately tin and refelectedi in its physical wgt.

[Tom Myers]

I've entered a dispute w/an ebay seller over the purchase of 50/50 bar solder. Rec'vd what I see as plain lead. Using the ball bearing/vise test w/a ww ingot, those that were suppied as 50/50 were significantly softer.

Now, I'm wondering what the std 1# ingot shud wgt if it were instead 50% tin? Periodic tables talk atomic wgt and not really meaningful to the dispute ~ those from the seller weigh in as 1#.

Thanks

You can analyze a Tin/Lead alloy quite accurately using the following process:

Cut off a piece of the alloy that your powder scale can weigh (or cast a large bullet from the alloy)

Weigh the bullet or chunk on your scale to the nearest 1/10 grain and record the weight of your sample and label it as "Sample Weight"

Next position your scale near the edge of a table or shelf so that you can suspend the sample from the scale pan with a piece of thread or fine wire. Use only enough thread or wire to securely suspend the sample and cut off any surplus.

Now weigh the suspended sample and thread to the nearest 1/10 grain and record that value as "Dry Weight."

Fill a cup with room temperature water and bring it up under the suspended sample until the sample is just barely submerged, weigh the submerged sample, making sure to keep it just barely submerged under the surface of the water in the cup. Record the weight value as "Wet Weight"

Subtract the Wet Weight from the Dry Weight and divide the difference into the Sample Weight. This value will be the Specific Gravity or your sample.

Sample Weight / (Wet Weight - Dry Weight) = Specific Gravity

If your sample is 50%/Tin and 50% Lead the SG should be around 8.882
Pure Lead will be about 11.340 SG
60%Tin and 40% Lead will be about 8.513 SG
Pure Tin will be about 7.3 SG

Enter the Specific Gravity of your sample into the formula below to find the percentage of tin in your Tin/Lead alloy.

Divide 2049.06 by the Specific Gravity of your sample then subtract 180.69 to find the percentage of tin in the sample

Let SG = Specific Gravity of the sample

2049.06 / SG - 180.69 = The percentage of Tin in the sample

You should be correct to 1 or 2 %

Looking back at your posts, you wanted to know what the weights would be for an ingot of the exact same dimensions but of different alloys.

A 50% Tin / 50% Lead ingot the same size as a Pure lead ingot of one pound would weigh approximatly 0.783 lbs or 12.5 ounces

Hope this helps

Tom Myers
Precision Ballistics and Records (http://www.tmtpages.com)

[Tom Myers]

I have noticed that when attempting to calculate the specific gravity of alloys from the specific gravity of the components of the alloy that many simply multiply the alloy ratio of each component by it's specific gravity and then add them all up.

I used to do it that way also but whenever when I checked the calculations by actual weights, nothing ever seemed to come out right.

I was looking through an old Gold Assayer's Manual and found that one needs to DIVIDE the Specific Gravity into the Alloy Ratio of each element and then add them up to determine the Reciprocal of the specific gravity of the alloy. Then dividing 1 by the reciprocal returns the true specific gravity of the alloy.

I copied their explanation of the procedure to a page on my website

Specific Gravity Calculations (http://www.uslink.net/~tom1/specific-gravity.htm)

Now when I add one pound of tin to 19 pounds of pure lead and check the specific gravity by calculations and by physical means, the results agree quite closely.

SG of Lead = 11.34
SG of Tin = 7.3

50% tin 50% lead alloy

The old way:

0.5 x 7.3 + 0.3 x 11.34 = 3.65+ 5.67 = an SG of 9.32

The way the professionals do it:

0.5 / 7.3 + 0.5 / 11.34 = 0.068493 + 0.0440917 = 0.1125849

1 / 0.1125849 = the True SG of 8.8822 for 50/50 tin/lead alloy

Hope this helps

Tom Myers
Precision Ballsitics and Records (http://www.tmtpages.com)

[GLL]

Tom:

Have you ever seen (or made) a graph of Specific Gravities for various Pb/Sn ratios ( no Sb)?

I thought SG for Pb/Sn would produce a linear graph but when I plot the four values given plus five others I have they are a bit off.


Jerry

[johnly]

PM sent.

[southpaw]

odoh please tell me that you didnt buy it from queenyviking. if it is then i think that made a mistake last week. we will see when it gets here...

[odoh]

Okay, I won't [smilie=1: Did you pay w/paypal? I've learned to use paypal and even then w/credit card. They ignored repeated reqst for status via ebay mail, fone msgs etc starting 15 days AFTER purchase. So, I opened a dispute and it arrived. From what I've been seeing here, I immediately suspected the f- - - d word and started to try to determine if I rec'vd what was promised. I got the full 10#s but trying to determine 10#s of what? Glad I didn't stretch for the 25#s. Apparently seveeral of our members have been disappointed.

Hope yours works out better than theirs & mine.

[hiram]

If you have solder and bend the bar, you will hear it crackle. If you bend lead, you won't hear the crackling.

[Tom Myers]

Tom:

Have you ever seen (or made) a graph of Specific Gravities for various Pb/Sn ratios ( no Sb)?

I thought SG for Pb/Sn would produce a linear graph but when I plot the four values given plus five others I have they are a bit off.


Jerry

Jerry

You also asked if I could supply more SG values from various percentages of Tin in a Tin/Lead Alloy. The graph shows 10 different values. You can calculate a specific value for any percentage point of tin in a Tin/Lead alloy by using this simplified formula:

Let P = the percentage of tin in the Alloy
Let SG = the Specific Gravity of the Alloy

Then

SG = 2049.06 / ( P + 180.69 )

For a 5% Tin Alloy, it would work like this

2049.06 / ( 5 + 180.69 ) = 2049.06 / 185.69 = 11.034843

Of course you can also calculate the SG of any alloy using the reciprocals of the specific gravities like this:

Let T = Decimal Ratio of Tin in an alloy
Let L = Decimal Ratio of Lead in an alloy
Let A = Decimal Ratio of Antimony in an alloy

SG of Tin is 7.337
SG of Lead is 11.345
SG of Antimony is 6.700

Calculate the Specific Gravity of Lyman #2 Alloy
Tin = 5%, Antimony = 5% and Lead = 90%

( T / 7.337 ) + ( A / 6.700 ) + ( L / 11.345 ) = 1 / SG of Alloy

T = 0.05, A = 0.05 and L = 0.90

( 0.05 / 7.337 ) + ( 0.05 / 6.700 ) + ( 0.90 / 11.345 ) = 0.0068147 + 0.007462686 + 0.07912088 = 0.09339834
1 / 0.09339834 = 10.70682839 = Specific Gravity of a 5%/5%/90% Tin/Antimony/Lead Alloy

I plotted 10 percentage values of a Tin/Lead alloy between 0 and 100 then ran them through a 5th degree equation to come up with the enclosed graph and, as you also found, the graph is smooth but non-linear.

Tom Myers
Precision Ballistics and Records (http://www.tmtpages.com)

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/CalcTin-SG.gif

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/Tin-to-SG.gif

[GLL]

Tom:

Thank you !

My graph is exactly like yours except for the 10% Sn/90%Pb value ! Mine appears low.
Do you feel the variation in crystal lattice structure may account or the non-linear nature of the SG ??

Jerry

[Tom Myers]

Tom:

Thank you !

My graph is exactly like yours except for the 10% Sn/90%Pb value ! Mine appears low.
Do you feel the variation in crystal lattice structure may account or the non-linear nature of the SG ??

Jerry

Jerry,
I think the non-linear nature is caused by the difference in the two specific gravity variables. The more the difference, the more curve there would be to the graph line.

Tom

[southpaw]

odoh- Yes I did use paypal and my debit card. I ordered the 50/50 tin/lead 8 days ago. I sent them a letter (today) asking if and when they sent it out. We shall see what happens... Well I am off to smelt some wheel weights. Thanks to all.

[odoh]

Well, first off, many thanks for the huge amount of excellent inputs, some of which was above my head. Its amazing the amount of expertise present here.

I purchased some 50/50 from our local plumbing supply. Ingotized it using an RCBS mould in keeping w/the ebayer supplied ingots and the known 50/50 weighed 3/4 pound on a grocery scale In keeping w/Toms calcutated prediction, whereas the ebay stuff was right at a pound. Did the ballbearing/vice test and the indention on the known 50/50 was 0.030" compared to 0.060" on the ebay solder.

Sent a sample to be tested w/a 'gizmo' device and a preliminary report of analysis indicates this proported 50/50 Bar solder had ~2% tin content like ww but nowhere near the 50% to be as advertized. Looking for a hard copy report shortly. PayPal pretty much took charge at this point. This makes me the second scam victim that I know of.

[skeet028]

I got in touch with them and asked if i could pick up just the bars of tin and lead that they were advertising..They actually got back to me..when I told them I wanted to pick it up FTF they never got back with me. Why not just sell the lead and the tin in ingots of each rather than melt etc. Price would be the same and no cost to melt...A little suspect to me from the word go. They are only 60 miles from me and have to go right by when going to Billings. Think I will keep right on going by.

[southpaw]

odoh- I havent received my "50/50" yet, but just in case its not I was wondering who you sent it to to get tested and if you dont mind me asking how much did it cost? thanks

[odoh]

southpaw ~ PM'd you

[opentop]

I was watching the same auctions from that seller, but thought the price was to good to be true. I'm glad I read this post. Thanks for sharing this information.

[southpaw]

Thanks odoh. The "50/50" should be in today or tomorrow if they shipped it when they said they did. my fingers are crossed, but doubtful..
I bought 25#... so the test would be worth it
thanks again

[odoh]

Thanks odoh. The "50/50" should be in today or tomorrow if they shipped it when they said they did. my fingers are crossed, but doubtful..
I bought 25#... so the test would be worth it
thanks again

IIRC, it took 3days enroute via priority mail. This thread has a lot of good info to assist you in chkg it out when you do get it.

[southpaw]

got the "50-50" in yesterday. Im gonna try the specific gravity test in the next couple of days. I know that it is not pure pb and it is not lino. it is comparable to ww (color hardness) however it did seem smoother. will post when i get the gravity test done.

[odoh]

PayPal adjudicated the claim in my favor and refund is directed providing return at my cost. As southpaws sig line, the experience is costing me something.

I owe the victory to those kind members of this forum for the sharing of their considerable expertise. I had seen the ebay rating of the seller of 98.5% and figured that even the best QC has a 3% lemon rate. As this was less the 3%, the risk would be minor. When the seller didn't ship w/in their 2 business days, I started followup on the 15th day and seller was uncommunicative. The rest you already know. In that my quest was actually for tin, I did better w/graingers.

Again ~ thanks to all for their help and some going out of their way in search for objectivity.

[skeet028]

Although paypal found in your favor..did the guy even answer your question of the quality of the metal in question? Can you add to the guys woes by giving him negative feedback? He do need it you know. Otherwise he will continue to prey on the unsuspecting.

[odoh]

Although paypal found in your favor..did the guy even answer your question of the quality of the metal in question? Can you add to the guys woes by giving him negative feedback? He do need it you know. Otherwise he will continue to prey on the unsuspecting.

Yes ~ Tho I did hold off 'til PayPal ruled. As its hard not to take personal I felt it necessary to have an 'impartial' party support before doing so. In that there were no open communication from the seller, I just don't know what their response to PayPal was. They didn't respond to my attempts. Perhaps it was a mistake? Only the seller would know for certain. After this experience and having seen their attitude displayed in responses to other neg feedback ratings on ebay I personally feel they're unethical BUT they have hundreds of positive feedbacks AND ebay asks to refrain from personal attacks and I tried to do so. Rewrote my comment 6 times.


Frankly, it could have gone the other way instead looking just at the big picture w/hundreds of glowing feedbacks but fortunately, PayPal viewed the details/specifics of this particular case. Justice is served. Hope others can avoid a similar experience.

[johnly]

got the "50-50" in yesterday. Im gonna try the specific gravity test in the next couple of days. I know that it is not pure pb and it is not lino. it is comparable to ww (color hardness) however it did seem smoother. will post when i get the gravity test done.

If you need testing done on your sample, just drop me a PM.

John

[bohokii]

wow nevber thought of that before like say you mixed uranium with aluminum 50/50 in reality it would be like 80/20 by volume

[southpaw]

johnly ~ pm'd you

[southpaw]

I did the SG test and it doesnt look good. I got 10% tin. I will try it again tomorrow. I think that a test is in order. I weighted the bars. They came out to be one pound. Thanks again to everyone for all you help.

[johnly]

I got your PM and sent one back your way.

John

[buffdriver]

I'm glad that I saw this thread. I bought 5 lbs of 50/50 from this seller on ebay and was wondering how to verify the content. I just tested the specific gravity and found it to be 10.875, which puts it just under 10% tin. This is, of course, assuming that the only metals in the alloy are lead and tin!

I have contacted the seller and requested reimbursement, but I'm not holding my breath. My next move will be to file a Paypal dispute if I don't hear from him.

It's disappointing to hear that odoh must pay return shipping as part of the refund. For me, that means that I will probably receive only about 50% of my funds back, but it's worth it to hold this guy accountable.

Will post update when it's available.

Cheers,

BuffDriver

[odoh]

I'm finding it increasingly difficult to believe this could be an error/mistake on their part ~ but they do boast a lot of satisfied buyers. Even more so after my neg rating comment didn't change their positive rating % at all!

[southpaw]

It appears that queenyviking is no longer a registered user of ebay. At least thats what it says on their feedback page. I dont think that any one that bought from them tested the lead.

[odoh]

Hope PayPal froze their account to satisfy claims/disputes like they said they were. According to UPS tracking my return was completed/delivered day befor yesterday. PayPal has until Feb 5 to close the claim.

Had a previous dispute adjudicated in my favor by paypal 3 ~ 4 yrs back but was unable to recover. I then filed a dispute w/Visa and it was resolved instantly.

Of course one can file a US Postal Service complaint.

[buffdriver]

A resolution to my case:

Paypal found in my favor also, and will return my funds, pending return of product to queenyviking. I am planning to use USPS flat rate small box, as it will only cost $4.80 to return. Frankly, I would pay more just to ensure that this seller is denied payment for a fraudulent product.

Although queenyviking's ebay account is not active, I was able to leave feedback and have now done so. In case this seller returns under a different ebay name, her real name is Rhiannon Schreiner. Avoid like the plague! Here is a comment she made in the course of our Paypal dispute:


I see you don't know what you are talking about. 50/50 is not 50% lead and 50% tin. That's not how it's made. It's by volume. It's not my fault that you don't know what it is and don't know what you need.

In hindsight, I was very naive to have expected the product to be legitimate. The red flag was there by the very fact of the seller claiming to mix pure lead and pure tin to sell as alloy. Who would do that when they could sell the pure tin for much more?

Hopefully, we've heard the last of Ms. Schreiner, but these folks have a tendency to turn up again, so beware. Oh, and I completely agree with using a credit card. Paypal is geared to require return of the product, even if it is fraudulent. It would have been much simpler to dispute the product with my CC company and be done with it.

BuffDriver

[skeet028]

Tried to get in touch with them as they are only 60 miles away. After telling them I wanted the base metals left un mixed they never got back with me. And as far as her quote

I see you don't know what you are talking about. 50/50 is not 50% lead and 50% tin. That's not how it's made. It's by volume. It's not my fault that you don't know what it is and don't know what you need.

HUH?? I always mixed by weight...Tin weighs less than lead..yes but if you mix 90-10 mixture..9 lbs of lead..1 lb of tin...Or so I always figured. You done Good though. Someone else will register an ebay account under another name probably. Suspect anybody from near Laurel Mt

[odoh]

Her quote doesn't make sense as her description on ebay specifially states they take 60#s of tin and 60#s of lead to make 50/50 solder. . . . . Should have known when the Buy Now price was too good to be true.

In that the mould is a volumetric device (is that a word) the solder ingot should weght in less than pure lead as demonstrated mathmatically and physically.

No doubt she'll be back looking to score again !

[southpaw]

got the results back and they are as follows:

Lead: 89.83%
Tin: 4.39%
Antimony: 3.27%

paypal claim has been opened. whether or not they have the funds in their account after paypal finds in my favor I will be covered by buyer protection. that is about the only good thing that i have found with paypal.

Thanks to everyone that helped and johnly for doing the test for me :drinks:
well its my day off so im gonna go and either smelt some ww, cast some boolits or go shooting. hmm i can probably get the shooting and smelting done at the same time and do some casting tonite. :-D THATS IT THATS WHAT IM GONNA DO!!!!

[skeet028]

Long way from 50/50 isn't it? Good job. Hope you get the money back.