Rust blueing problem

[oldhenry]

I had previously started a thread: "Blueing Alternatives" which was an attempt at locating a gunsmith that did blueing to a gun that had been prepped (the hard part) by the owner. Having failed in this search and having received valuable information from several members I decided to rust blue the guns myself.

I chose Laurel Mtn. Brown & Degreaser. I constructed a 6"X6"X36" humidity cabinet from scrap materials & utilized a cheap hot plate for heat & a scrap bread pan to hold water & made a scalding pan from PVC. The 1st. victims for the process were a Rem, 521T & Mossberg 152. The 521T was a Frankenstein that had all the metal pieces & a 513T stock. The Mossberg's prior owner had painted all metal parts flat black.

I prepped them starting @ 320 & ending @ 800 & started the rust blue process on the small parts hoping to gain some expertise before rolling the dice on the bbl/receivers. The small parts went better than expected. I had some apprehension about the case hardened bolt parts on the 521T & the trigger on the 152, but they turned out beautifully (the case colors were gone, but the dark black color was even better).

These small parts demonstrated to me that different types of metals react to the rust solution differently. Most parts required 5 hrs. to rust & the rust was very fine (like red/brown powder). The magazine plates from each required more time & more applications.

The problem pertains to the bbl/receiver: the Mossberg was to be the 1st.. The instructions require 2 applications before the 1st. scalding. After only 3hrs. after the 1st. application the rust buildup was heavy & looked more like fish scales than powder. Committed to following the directions exactly, added another application & put it into the humidity cabinet for 1.5 hrs. I then scalded it & tried to card. It was then that I discovered that the rust process was so severe that it etched the metal.

I've started over with 320 to get a smooth surface & now have a bigger job to get it correct than I did from the beginning.

MY PLAN: 1. prep back to 800 2. be extremely light with my 1st. application 3. forgo 2nd.application before scalding if indicated 4. check progress of rusting process every 15 min. when in humidity cabinet.

Obviously the metal in the Mossberg bbl/receiver reacts quickly to the LMB&G solution.

Any ideas or suggestions will be appreciated. I emailed LMF, but do not expect to hear from them B4 Monday.

Henry

[Winger Ed.]

Even the black, wet or dry, 320 grit is some pretty aggressive sand paper.
It might work too well, leave deeper scratches, and remove more metal than ya really want.

I'd use different number grades of steel wool if it will work for that.
Single 'O' or 'OO' to start, and finish with 'OOOO' wool.

[Deadeye Bly]

I just finished 3 barrells using the LMF browning solution. You don't need to prep any smother than 320 wet or dry paper. I use the red scotchbrite pads for a final prep before starting the process. The surface needs some texture for the solution to get a good bite. I cook after each application of the solution. I don't use a damp box. Yours seems too aggressive. I only do it when I have enough humidity in the air to get rusting action. I cook mine morning and evening after letting them rust between boilings. Some steel respond better than others. Chrome/moly seems to rust really well. Apply the solution sparingly using long even strokes with a barely wet swab. Do not rub it in or let it puddle. It may look terrible after the first boiling. Keep going. It generally takes me 3 or 4 days to get done. As you get closer to finish you will notice that you don't get as much rusting action. That means you are nearly done. Don't despair, Keep it up and you will eventually be pleased with the result and you will have done it yourself.

[LAGS]

With Slow Rust Bluing , you do not ever polish the metal to a Mirror Finish.
If the metal is too smooth , then applying the acid is like putting water on Glass.
It does not go on smoothly and makes you want to rub the acid around more.
I Bead blast my barrels after draw filing out the scratches.
They come out a little more of a Matt Finish.
But boy the finish is even.
Also, If you are not doing it already , let your parts hang in a humid place Overnight.
It makes the finish , especially the Base coat to be more durable.

[oldhenry]

Even the black, wet or dry, 320 grit is some pretty aggressive sand paper.
It might work too well, leave deeper scratches, and remove more metal than ya really want.

I'd use different number grades of steel wool if it will work for that.
Single 'O' or 'OO' to start, and finish with 'OOOO' wool.

Ed,
Thanks for the input. I'm frugal & never throw away sand paper. I do separate paper that was used on any material other than steel. Some W&D strips marked 320 may be "320 light" (worn). On the bbl/receiver I used W&D strips 11"X2" in a "shoeshine" type motion sometimes wet when I'm@ the end of the grit change.

In this particular situation I had a perfect surface prior to applying the LMF solution & now have horizontal deep etch marks where the application wipes meet. To remove these deep etch marks 320 (new paper) is required & even @ that it's no easy job.

[oldhenry]

I just finished 3 barrells using the LMF browning solution. You don't need to prep any smother than 320 wet or dry paper. I use the red scotchbrite pads for a final prep before starting the process. The surface needs some texture for the solution to get a good bite. I cook after each application of the solution. I don't use a damp box. Yours seems too aggressive. I only do it when I have enough humidity in the air to get rusting action. I cook mine morning and evening after letting them rust between boilings. Some steel respond better than others. Chrome/moly seems to rust really well. Apply the solution sparingly using long even strokes with a barely wet swab. Do not rub it in or let it puddle. It may look terrible after the first boiling. Keep going. It generally takes me 3 or 4 days to get done. As you get closer to finish you will notice that you don't get as much rusting action. That means you are nearly done. Don't despair, Keep it up and you will eventually be pleased with the result and you will have done it yourself.

Your post is very encouraging & informative.

I agree that my set-up for the small parts is too aggressive for the bbl/receiver. Thinking about the difference I realize that my small parts (not much mass) were suspended by a wire from a cross piece about 1/2 the height of the cabinet (18"). The bbl/rec. has more mass & the lower end is closer to the heat & moisture source.

I think I'll try the lowest possible heat setting & a smaller water container (or maybe no water container).

I'd appreciate you clearing up the term "cook" as opposed to boiling (scalding).

Once again, many thanks.

[oldhenry]

With Slow Rust Bluing , you do not ever polish the metal to a Mirror Finish.
If the metal is too smooth , then applying the acid is like putting water on Glass.
It does not go on smoothly and makes you want to rub the acid around more.
I Bead blast my barrels after draw filing out the scratches.
They come out a little more of a Matt Finish.
But boy the finish is even.
Also, If you are not doing it already , let your parts hang in a humid place Overnight.
It makes the finish , especially the Base coat to be more durable.
Thanks for the response.

My problem is different. Even with a smooth finish the rusting action is too aggressive. I think my humidity cabinet is the problem.

In S. Georgia during the summer every place is humid. Fortunately for our comfort (but not for rust blueing) those humid days ore over for a few months.

[FLINTNFIRE]

I have a basement and one part was made as a fallout shelter but the original owner was less then wise about drainage , so it is a somewhat damp room that I have had to put sump pump in , it works without a sweat box , apply expose to a tea pot steaming hang and check on in a while , I find that there are times it does not take very long and it is time to card .

[waksupi]

For rust bluing, I really don't like a sweat box. I live where humidity is very low, yet just let the metal sit on the open air to oxidize. If you can actually see rust color, you have gone too far.

[2152hq]

Don't use a damp box,,at least not at first when trying to learn how to Slow Rust Blue.
There's really no reason to use one. It's not needed to get results.
It can speed up the process,,but it can also cause bad results with over aggressive rusting as you have found out.

Let the parts rust naturally. Even if they hang and take 24hrs or even more for a nice even fine coating of rust to appear.
So what,,I't called Slow Rust for a reason.
Don't be in a hurry.

Polishing and Prep.

Yes you can put an extremely high polish on the steel AND preserve that high polish and get the rust blue as well with it.
BUT it take some extra effort and technique in juggling rusting times, humidity, temp, soln %, using a correct soln for a certain steel type,,,most of these
things come with nothing more than experience.,,and what works with one steel will generally not work with another.

So polish your work to a nice 320 grit and then finish it off with a medium scotchbrite pad to blend things in. That will give you a nice even look and a good surface for a rust blue.

Clean the metal well,,even though the Laurel Mtn does have a detergent cleaner in it,,it does you well to clean the metal.
I use TSP detergent in hot (not boiling) water. Scrubb the arts and rinse.

Let the parts cool to room temp.

Lay a coating of soln on the part. Nice and even, very light. No runs or drips. Don't over coat an already coated area. If you miss a narrow streak,,leave it.
You will get it on cycle #2 and it'll never look uneven.

Let the parts hang and rust.
They do not need to rust and look like old farm impliments left in a field for 100 yrs.
A very light coating of red rust just barely visible is all you need for a color coating.
That color comes from the boiling cycle.
Boil for about 10 mins.

Let the parts cool. Then card.
If you use steel wool,,make damn sure there's no oil in it.
Use a carding brush or wheel if you have it.

Then re-apply another coating of rusting soln as before and start all over again.
Just enought to wet the surface. The coating should dry in seconds and not lay wet on the surface for long.

** The instructions given to recoat the first application with a second coating I rarely do.
About the only time I will do that is if after the first application is done and the parts have been hanging for a time (24hrs perhaps in a less than humid room) and no rusting has started,,,then I will recoat again and let them go another 24+ hrs to rust before boiling the first time.

But as a general rule, I don't do a double coating on that first time around. There is no need for it.

If you do get a streak in the bluing on an otherwise perfect looking job while you are going thru the process,,or a small blemish, discolored area,,you can 'fix' that w/o having to resort to starting all over again.

That blemish, discolored area or streak can be polished out with that same Scotchbrite that you used as a final polishing on the parts before bluing.
Use a piece of the pad to scrub and polish the bad area out and remove the blemish.
You will of course remove the bluing color with it but don't be upset! Getting the bleminsh out is the goal. Then using the same pad lightly blend the polished out area in with the surrounding color.The goal is to blend the polishing marks back in as original. Since the pad is the same as the last thing you used on the part before you started bluing, it works well. Don't be distracted by the loss of bluing where you removed the damage.

There is still bluing in the pores of the steel where you polished away the damage.
This will allow the color to build right back up with the next application or two of bluing soln, rusting cycle and boiling/carding.

Go rigt ahead and go back to applying another coating to the entire part,,not just the repaired damage area,,but the entire part.
Let it rust and then boil and card.
It may need another to completely bring the repair back to full color match with the rest of the part but I've never had to do more than that.

From that point you can decide if you want to go on and add even more cycles of color to the part or quit where you are.

After rust can be a problem w/Laurel Mtn and most any of the slow rust blue solns.
I've tried all of the alkali soaks and rinses. Some work sometimes and some somewhat in my experience.
The two best ways I've found are to either add one coat of MarkLee Express Rust Blue as a final cycle after the carding of the last cycle of the LAurel Mtn slow rust. For some reason that results in no after rust,,and it adds another color layer.
The other is to wipe the parts down with Artists Linseed Oil and let it dry on the surface (takes about a day+).
Then remove that with a cloth dampened with any gun oil like CLP or RemOil.
No after rust either.
Don't know if the regular Hdw Store BLO would work. I just happened to have the Artists stuff handy on the bench and gave it a try and it worked.

Been doing this stuff for 50+ yrs.

[bangerjim]

800 grit is pretty course for metal finishing.

I use up to 6000 grit wet-n-dry paper for the final finish. Or the finest diamond dust you can find on a wet rag.

banger

[JLF]

To prepare a metal for its shiny finish, I do the following:
I sand the surface with a coarse grit emery cloth to remove coarse imperfections. If there are no such coarse imperfections, I use a fine-grained emery cloth, then I use a finer one with oil and lastly I use a pita brush with polishing wax for a mirror finish.
I hope this is what you are asking. Excuse my English...

[oldhenry]

Where else other than this forum could anyone get such detailed information about such an involved process. To me the information generated in this thread is priceless.

I feel like I have been thrown a lifeline. Many thanks to all & a special thanks to 2152hq.

JLF, your English is perfect.

[Chill Wills]

I am building a 22rf on an old Winchester low wall. It is a parts action - bits and pieces from here and there. Butt stock off another rifle that got a new one.
The subject of this post is bluing the barrel. (30" octagon #2 weight from Brownells - no idea who made it)
I am using the Laurel Mountain Forge product.
291771 I ended up doing about ten cycles on the barrel to get a very deep blue
I have a wooden cold rust box. Works fine, made of some scrap wood. I use a spritzer (old Windex sprayer) to mist the inside of the wood box and hang a damp wash cloth on the door to provide the rust. I am in the very dry Rocky Mountains. How many cycles? I usually keep at it until it looks good, and/or all the weak areas and streaks are gone. I have barrels that are not perfect But more cycles did not improve it any. The choice is, strip it and do it again or live with the small imperfection.

I really advise using Brownells carding wheel. Used in any drill press or hand drill. They require making your own arbor but that is a short job on a lathe - yours or a friends. The carding wheel beats steel wool ten ways to Sunday.

[LAGS]

I agree with you on the use of the carding wheel.
Brownells was out of stock when I ordered my last one.
But there are another that is on the internet.
Same thing.
You can drill out the hub and install several sizes of mandrals.
I use mine in my drill press on the lowest speed.

[Rapier]

If you do not have a wash tank, high temp distilled water with high soap content, plus a clean water tank, do not use any polishing process that leaves any kind of residue at all.
I use a vertical belt sander with 220 grit metal belts, 220 is the highest polish you should use on rust blue, and a barrel spinner for barrels, then do actions by hand using the belt sander. I then triple wash with acetone. Then apply the rust blue compound, twice for first pass, steam, card, reapply, steam, card, etc. I do 10 passes in one day with a steam pipe generator. You hang in the steam pipe with the heat turned off.
Make sure the carding material is absolutely clean also. In my experience, 99% of the rust blue problems are from contamination of the surface. All process is done wearing rubber gloves.
You never start with old pre-used materials, use clean, new.

[Deadeye Bly]

Did you ever get around to trying to rust blue that Mossberg again? I would be interested in the results.

[oldhenry]

Did you ever get around to trying to rust blue that Mossberg again? I would be interested in the results.

I apologize for not responding sooner. I had neck surgery on11/16 & have been in a brace since. This coming Monday (12/27) will be my last day (in the brace). Luckily I was able to complete the blue job before surgery

I'm well pleased with the results with the Laurel Mountain Forge product. The 3 photos hopefully show the efforts of my labor & the 4th. shows the humidity cabinet that I cobbled up from scrap material. A lower temp setting & reduced rust period was the solution to my initial problem.

I also blued the small parts to a Remington 521T with the batch & they turned out nicely. The Mossberg was essentially a trial run for the 521T. The 521T barreled action is next

[lesharris]

Nice blue job.

[oldhenry]

Nice blue job.

Thanks. I consider it a result of the combined information contributed by this forum.

I'm also attaching a photo of the 521T small parts. The case hardened bolt handle & bolt shroud turned out the best: a dark black color that is very even (this surprised me). The floor/magazine plate & the TG required more applications & is not as deep colored: they're more of a soft blue.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Looks good. The main takeaway, I think, is that different conditions/climate/humidity require the process to be tweeked a bit.
You've done well....

DG

[Deadeye Bly]

I'm glad it worked out well for you. You now have a skill that will bring you personal rewards.

[oldhenry]

After the Mossberg 152 & did a Mossberg 142-A (saving the 521T until I get even better). The 142-A is a bolt gun & I learned that the barrel on the 142-A is not a screw-on affair, but is a interference fit slip-on held in place by the lug that holds the takedown screw. I learned this by accident when a water leak occurred @ that joint. The 142-A blue job turned out well.

I then came to own a Mossberg 340BB (do you notice that I have a Mossberg problem). This 340BB was factory fresh on the left side & rusty on the right (probably from improper storage near a water source).

The 340BB has a slip-on barrel to receiver fit so I chose to separate them & blue separately. The receiver is slightly over 7" & fit in the small aluminum pan used for the small parts. I boiled the receiver 15 min. & after 4 treatments that receiver was beautiful.

The barrel was done using my PVC tube for the boiled water. The 1st. treatment went OK. The 2nd. treatment had red rust streaks & I attributed that to water leaking from the muzzle plug. I corrected the muzzle plug & removed the red rust & the black deposits & tried again. This time (the 3rd) there was more red rust than black.

I carded it and it as more of a grey look than black/blue. It doesn't look terrible, but isn't what I want.

Question: why didn't that fe3 turn into fe4? Would a lighter coat of the browning/blueing solution bring about a better result?

Is this a signal that I need to graduate to a metal tank so the boiling/heating time can be more concentrated & longer?

Any help will be appreciated.
Henry

Since the pan used for small parts is aluminum and it works well, I was thinking of 1/8" alum. for the larger tank.

[waksupi]

After the Mossberg 152 & did a Mossberg 142-A (saving the 521T until I get even better). The 142-A is a bolt gun & I learned that the barrel on the 142-A is not a screw-on affair, but is a interference fit slip-on held in place by the lug that holds the takedown screw. I learned this by accident when a water leak occurred @ that joint. The 142-A blue job turned out well.

I then came to own a Mossberg 340BB (do you notice that I have a Mossberg problem). This 340BB was factory fresh on the left side & rusty on the right (probably from improper storage near a water source).

The 340BB has a slip-on barrel to receiver fit so I chose to separate them & blue separately. The receiver is slightly over 7" & fit in the small aluminum pan used for the small parts. I boiled the receiver 15 min. & after 4 treatments that receiver was beautiful.

The barrel was done using my PVC tube for the boiled water. The 1st. treatment went OK. The 2nd. treatment had red rust streaks & I attributed that to water leaking from the muzzle plug. I corrected the muzzle plug & removed the red rust & the black deposits & tried again. This time (the 3rd) there was more red rust than black.

I carded it and it as more of a grey look than black/blue. It doesn't look terrible, but isn't what I want.

Question: why didn't that fe3 turn into fe4? Would a lighter coat of the browning/blueing solution bring about a better result?

Is this a signal that I need to graduate to a metal tank so the boiling/heating time can be more concentrated & longer?

Any help will be appreciated.
Henry

Since the pan used for small parts is aluminum and it works well, I was thinking of 1/8" alum. for the larger tank.

I'm not sure why you are getting the red rust, unless you are leaving it to cool in the tube. You do need to boil longer, 25 minutes for boiling, 20 minutes if steaming. I usually need to do a half dozen cycles to get a good blue job. When you apply the chemical, just a wipe with a saturated cotton ball does the trick. You don't want a soaking wet surface. No need to plug the bore, may even be detrimental, and contribute to your problem.

[oldhenry]

waksupi,

Thanks for the response. Good news about plugging the bore not needed.

My PVC tube is a horizontal set-up with one end (about 12") open for about 1/2 circumference to enter the barrel/action. I pour boiling water in, but it cools in a few minutes. I remove the barrel when the water is cool enough to not burn my hand. In hindsight I can see that a vertical PVC system with a removeable top cap would be better @ slowing the cooling.

I talked to a sheet metal shop today about braking 1/8" aluminum for a 34"L x 4"W x6"H tank. I can TIG the ends. They'll call with a quote tomorrow. I think this may solve my problem. I also plan to be less liberal with the browning/blue solution.

Once again, thanks for your input.

Henry

[waksupi]

waksupi,

Thanks for the response. Good news about plugging the bore not needed.

My PVC tube is a horizontal set-up with one end (about 12") open for about 1/2 circumference to enter the barrel/action. I pour boiling water in, but it cools in a few minutes. I remove the barrel when the water is cool enough to not burn my hand. In hindsight I can see that a vertical PVC system with a removeable top cap would be better @ slowing the cooling.

I talked to a sheet metal shop today about braking 1/8" aluminum for a 34"L x 4"W x6"H tank. I can TIG the ends. They'll call with a quote tomorrow. I think this may solve my problem. I also plan to be less liberal with the browning/blue solution.

Once again, thanks for your input.

Henry

You aren't getting it nearly hot enough with your method. Use a vertical tube, stove pipe works well. Sit it in a pan of boiling water, and keep it boiling for 20 minutes, at least. Get some welding gloves or similar and remove the metal from the tube while is is still super heated. All moisture will dry immediately.

[Geezer in NH]

800 grit is pretty course for metal finishing.

I use up to 6000 grit wet-n-dry paper for the final finish. Or the finest diamond dust you can find on a wet rag.

banger
HUH? Never worked in a bluing shop eh?

[Geezer in NH]

For rust blueing do not go to fine in the polish as it will not work very well. 360 is the finest I would try.

Hot caustic go ahead and polish as high as you want 800,2000, or higher but takes good eyes to see the diff.

But that is me. I only blued 10-20K barrels for a few manufacturers.

[oldhenry]

After Waksupi gave me the valuable advise about the 25 minute boil I decided I was going to have a tank.

With inflation & supply problems 1/8" aluminum is scarce. but I lucked up on a 48"X14" scrap for $42.00. Another $10.00 to have it bent (braked?) to 36"longX4.75highX4.50W. Welding cost $50.00: $102. total. 2 single burner
cooker heaters @ $50.00 ea. totals $202.00. I already had 2 propane tanks.

The 2 attached photos show the set-up.

The results:
The upper L. photo is the Mossberg 320BB. (I refinished stock while I had it disassembled)
The upper R. photo tank (side)
The middle L. photo tank (top)
The middle R. is 521T B/A
The lower is another view of Mossberg 320BB


A special thanks to Waksupi for the 25 min. boil tip & to Geeser in NH for the tip on not going too fine with the grit (I'm a confirmed 320 grit man now)

[seagiant]

Hi,
To get your Damp Box working for you...

You want an 80/80, for humidity and temp, that seemed to give me the best results...

You can go to a Pet Store and buy the combo meters there for reptiles.

Not that expensive and lets you "dial" it in.

I also use a 60W light at the top of the box to keep wet humidity from forming. (gives spots)

If you can get your Box working efficiently, you can do 3 cycles a day and be done in 2 days.

Just my experience, and what works for me but the lizard, temp/humidity Gauge, will give the info.

[oldhenry]

Seagiant,
Thanks for the information.
Regards,
Henry