Scrap Range Lead Experiment

[FISH4BUGS]

I am lucky - no one else it seems, is interested in mining the berm at our local range.
Dig it out, sift it, dump it, smelt it, .....easy peasy. Good source of lead in trade for my labor. Maybe when I get into it, I may think differently, but right now it sounds doable.
OK...I am up for a try. Fall and winter is smelting season.
But here is my problem.
I have a hardness tester and can tell roughly the BHN of the range scrap lead. But I like to shoot harder bullets.
I have been using 5lbs ww to 1 lb lino for my entire 40 years of casting handgun calibers.
Once i get this range scrap smelted, I'll test it and get a BHN.
But I want to know how much of what to add to the range scrap to harden it up.
I don't want percentages of this or that. I want something like: "....... 5bs range scrap + so much of this or that gives Lyman #2."
I have linotype in 25 lb pigs just short of 100 lbs. I hate to even think about using that.
Thoughts?
What do i add and in what ratio to harden up range scrap?

[GregLaROCHE]

Range lead can vary a lot in hardness. To have an accurate idea of the final hardness you need to know what you are starting with. The best way, is to melt as much as you can at the same time. That way the ingots you cast should be similar in hardness. Otherwise, you need to keep each batch melted together, testing a sample for hardness from each batch. I only use a Dutch oven to melt range scrap in, but wish I had a larger container to melt more together so more ingots would be the same. Once you have the range scrap in ingots and know the hardness, you can calculate what you want to add harden it up in your casting pot.

[rancher1913]

every batch of range lead can be different hardness, you just have to melt a big batch and test, then adjust from there.

[Winger Ed.]

What I've found from our rifle range is that what isn't a cast rifle boolit is more or less pure Lead melted out of jackets.

On the pistol range, it's a mix of jacketed & cast..
Lots of pure Lead swaged bullets, and of the ones with a lube groove-- they're all cast and most are pretty hard.

In your application, I'd do some sorting.
Melt down all the jacketed stuff and swaged ones separately. They'll make rather pure Lead ingots.
Then do all the ones that look like they were cast, and test the hardness of that.

Go from there with adding wheel weights, or some super hard alloy from Rotometals or somebody.

[samari46]

Used to mine our pistol range once a month. Did this for about 8 months or so. Separated out all the hard cast bullets. melted them down in a dutch oven to get as much as possible in one batch. I ended up with close to 100lbs. At the yearly meeting, the club president singled me out as the designated pistol range miner. Most of the members didn't even know what he was talking about. I had a buddy now deceased who used to shoot about 600 rounds of hard cast 45acp bullets at a time. UPS used to bring him about 3000 rounds a month. About a dozen of us used to shoot the hard cast 230 grain bullets. Used a rake, shovel and a screen made out of 2"x4" with 1/4 hardware cloth. One thing I did learn is to not fill the 5 gal plastic buckets full. Those buckets got heavy real fast. Still have 4 buckets full in the garage. Frank

[imashooter2]

I am lucky - no one else it seems, is interested in mining the berm at our local range.
Dig it out, sift it, dump it, smelt it, .....easy peasy. Good source of lead in trade for my labor. Maybe when I get into it, I may think differently, but right now it sounds doable.
OK...I am up for a try. Fall and winter is smelting season.
But here is my problem.
I have a hardness tester and can tell roughly the BHN of the range scrap lead. But I like to shoot harder bullets.
I have been using 5lbs ww to 1 lb lino for my entire 40 years of casting handgun calibers.
Once i get this range scrap smelted, I'll test it and get a BHN.
But I want to know how much of what to add to the range scrap to harden it up.
I don't want percentages of this or that. I want something like: "....... 5bs range scrap + so much of this or that gives Lyman #2."
I have linotype in 25 lb pigs just short of 100 lbs. I hate to even think about using that.
Thoughts?
What do i add and in what ratio to harden up range scrap?

You worry too much. Try 5 pounds range scrap to 1 pound Lino. It should be fine for any normal handgun. If you have one of the X frame Smiths or a BFR, you may have to do more work.

[FLINTNFIRE]

So you want someone to do the math and find you a recipe by weight of an as yet unknown hardness of range scrap , that right there is funny and you will find it varies by who has been shooting what .

Range I dig has a lot of cast and its a lot harder then what most find , I melt it and see how hard it is and cast as needed , simply put keep it simple .

I find I have a lot of hard bullets , harder then are needed for most applications , experiment is what you will have to do to see what works for you .

[Sasquatch-1]

I have about 1200 pounds of range scrap right now. The berm I pull form sees a lot of hard cast on the pistol range. My bullets will routinely test to between 18 and 22 bhn using the original Cabine Tree tester before the design was sold.

Smelt down what you have and cast up some bullets to test. Ingots seem to test harder then bullets for me.

Also, save those jackets. Sort out the steel. About two months ago I took two 5 gallon buckets worth to the scrap yard and walked away with $182.00.

You may want to concern yourself more with TIN content then hardness. I find I need to add tin on a regular basis for flow and filling.

[georgerkahn]

What I know about alloying metals could easily fit into a thimble which had been run over by a steam-roller! That being said, this is what I have many times done with "melted berm lead" a friend mined, melted, poured into ingots, and sold. These were "rough fluxed" -- clean enough for the ingots, but requiring another fluxing or two to cast uniform, good looking bullets.
I bought some Super Hard alloy from Roto Metals in California, USA. I'd add it, by weight, at the rough ratio of one pound of Roto Metal alloy to nine "standard SAECO, Lyman, etc."-sized ingots.
Albeit I am embarrassed to write I have several lead harness indicators, for me they have been of little value. Instead, as I just typed, I tried mixing at the 1 plus 9 rate, and it hardened lead up for me to keep rifle bullets together at the velocities I shoot at and minimize leading. When I first did this, I reckoned if I wasn't getting success -- then I'd just add another Super Hard ingot... and... you get the idea. I do need add that I load/shoot at just about the lower margins of factory ammo velocities, all in .300" or greater bore diameters. (I do have a new to me .25-20WCF, but have not yet tried shooting these bullets in it)
This is the 101% NON-scientific thing I did, which has worked well for me with reclaimed berm lead. Fyi, a good read on it is at http://www.lasc.us/SuperHard.htm#:~:text=Super%20Hard%20is%20a%2070%2 5%20lead%20%20,lead%2C%20sheet%20lead%20and%20many %20other%20lead%20alloys.
geo

[243winxb]

My Lee 10 pound pot gets 1 pound of Rotometals linotype, the balance is scrap or WW. Works for me. I test hardness with my thumb nail. If bullets are not easily marked, good to go for up to 44 mag 296 max loads. Or 38. 45acp target loads.

As cast diameters need to be large enough to size.

[William Yanda]

You need to know more than the hardness of your range scrap, you need to know the composition, what makes it hard to be able to blend it to Lyman No. 2. Unless you are willing to experiment.

[Rich/WIS]

Used to mine the berms at my old range and got a mix of hard cast, swaged and jacketed pistol bullets. Being frugal used this alloy for all my pistol bullets, 38/357, 40, 44 and 45. Never had leading issues, but these were sized for my guns and were at best moderate loads. Mixed 2 range lead to 1 lino for rifle again had no issues, but again moderate loads properly sized and gas checked. Personal opinion is too many worry over hardness, percentage of Sb and Sn etc, and uniformity of batches of alloy. Unless you have a demanding need such as bench rest shooting in appropriate rifles or bullseye pistol stop worrying and let your rifle or handgun tell you what hardness/size you need.

[P Flados]

My first couple of years of volume casting were done with wheel weights. That source quickly went from good (mostly lead), to bad (mostly not lead) to gone.

I eventually found an occasionally available source of range lead from an outdoor pistol range. In the mix, the plated bullets contribute most of the harder lead.

I have also bought lead from a local scrap yard and my son bought several hundred pounds of boat keel lead. Other than some free roofing lead that I scored, the boat keel lead turned out to be my softest bulk source.

Since WW became unavailable, I have found that I can get by with "medium hardness" for most of my casting. This includes full power 9mm and full power magnum pistol ammo. I just ran a batch of 30 or so pounds of ~33% boat keel + 67% range scrap through my 6 cavity Lee 120 TC mold to use in 9mm, 38 Sp and 357 Magnum. Based on pencil testing, this batch is somewhere in the 8 to 12 BHN range.

Unless you want to pay a premium, sources of pure and/or soft lead seem to be much easier to find than harder lead. I recommend that you do not "waste" your stash of harder lead trying to get bullets that are harder than they really need to be. Save the harder lead as much as possible and only blend it in when really needed. It will be worth the effort over the long run.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

First, let me tell you, even though you've cast pistol boolits with a hard alloy for 40 years, doesn't mean you have to continue.
Most range scrap, will be an adequate alloy for most pistol boolits.
OK, with my thoughts on that is out of the way.


SNIP>>>

I have linotype in 25 lb pigs just short of 100 lbs. I hate to even think about using that.
Thoughts?
What do i add and in what ratio to harden up range scrap?
So you don't want to use Lino?
I'm confused, what do you have besides Lino, to add to your mystery hardness range scrap?

The range scrap I scrounge is around 9 to 10 Bhn. If I was trying to match the hard alloy you are using, I'd add 2 lbs of Lino to 5 lbs of that 9 to 10 Bhn range scrap.

[Winger Ed.]

If you buy name brand swaged pistol bullets, they're going to be more or less pure Lead.
They do fine for .45ACP, .38Spec., etc. at paper punching speeds around 1,000 fps or so.
I cast mine for doing that as soft as what casts & fills the mold out easily.

For 2,000 fps or so rifle ammo, I get a little more scientific on mixing up my dwindling supply of 'goodies' and hard Lead.
That concept may work for you in conserving your hard alloys.

[Mitch]

I am confused to on what you ant to do.have lino and dont want to use it.so what are you going to do get some super hard.
I spent alot of time melting lead and useing my LBT hardness tester.Then remelting to get what wanted takes some time but works.The problem is the time and burning up alot of propane.There use to be a few people here that would test samples of your lead then you would have a good idea of the content.It is easy from there just plug the content into the lead calculator and mix what you need.

[Petander]

I would get "mystery scrap" tested. It can be anything.

I have also tested my ww stash, mono stash, now got some lino and pure to test. A small price for a peace of mind.

Testing also revealed a contaminant in my WW , (Niobium) that explained my difficulties with certain Hi Tek colours.

[rmark]

The lead I scavenge off our outdoor range is about 1/3 each cast pistol, jacketed pistol, and jacketed rifle, the resulting cast bullets testing at about 8 bhn or similar to stick on wheel weights in hardness. I use it for pistol and low velocity rifle bullets without additional hardening.

[Kraschenbirn]

The lead I scavenge off our outdoor range is about 1/3 each cast pistol, jacketed pistol, and jacketed rifle, the resulting cast bullets testing at about 8 bhn...

My experience is pretty much the same as previous posters. I "mined" our club range berms for several years and, after 'smelting' and fluxing', hardness of my ingots fell into a very consistent 8-10 Bhn. Before I began powder-coating, my 'pistol' alloy was 3 parts range scrap to 1 part COWW plus 2% Sn. Used this for everything from paper-punching .38 WCs to 'hardball' IPSC 'major' .45 ACPS. For anything 'hotter'...like IHMSA revolver loads...the mix was 2 parts range scrap, 1 part COWW, 1 part Lino, 2% 50/50 solder.

Now, with powder-coating and my IHMSA days far behind, my mix is more like straight range scrap plus 2% Sn for anything under 1100 fps...which covers about 98% of my needs.

Bill

[Rcmaveric]

I keep my lead sorted by hardness. Then i use a simple mixing cross to figure out how much of two different alloys to mix to make a target bhn allow.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7Y0raK6_Vbk

Easy peasy and tells you how many pounds of the two sources to mix for your target alloy.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

[Soundguy]

as others said. homogenize your scrap.. then go from there.

[fredj338]

I go 4-1 scrap to lino if I wan something a bit harder. Though range scrap works fine for all my handguns needs up thru midrange magnums. IT runs between 9-10bhn. Though I am now PC & water drop out of the oven, bumps them to 11-12bhn.

[SoonerEd]

I've got 2,700-2,800 lbs i washed this past spring stored in 33-36 5 gallon buckets in a storage building all summer to dry. I'll be smelting it in February after deer season and before crappie. So, got quite a project ahead of me. My test batch of 50 lbs i smelted tested between 10-11 BHN.

[243winxb]

Pick one.https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/lyman-alloy-chart.3536/full

[Soundguy]

I've got 2,700-2,800 lbs i washed this past spring stored in 33-36 5 gallon buckets in a storage building all summer to dry. I'll be smelting it in February after deer season and before crappie. So, got quite a project ahead of me. My test batch of 50 lbs i smelted tested between 10-11 BHN.

Nice... I foresee lots of spare ingots in your future.

[fal_762x51]

My mined berm lead is usually 12-14. I have been getting six 5 gallon buckets every six months. I should have stopped at 1k pounds, but I can sell or trade it in the future.

The goal is to make a snail trap and keep reusing the lead.

[Soundguy]

My mined berm lead is usually 12-14. I have been getting six 5 gallon buckets every six months. I should have stopped at 1k pounds, but I can sell or trade it in the future.

The goal is to make a snail trap and keep reusing the lead.

If you are averaging 12-14 bhn lead.. you must be getting lots of hardcast shooters. 14bhn is almost lyman #2.. which would likely be cast rifle bullets. Most lead from jacketed bullet cores I have seen are in the 10 bhn range.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

If you are averaging 12-14 bhn lead.. you must be getting lots of hardcast shooters. 14bhn is almost lyman #2.. which would likely be cast rifle bullets. Most lead from jacketed bullet cores I have seen are in the 10 bhn range.

Most large Manufacturers of cast pistol bullets use hardball alloy, BHN 16.

[Soundguy]

Most large Manufacturers of cast pistol bullets use hardball alloy, BHN 16.

Yeah.. i said they must be using hardcast.. And yes.. I know many commercial casters are making bullets darn hard.. and using darn hard lube.. so the bullets and lube look good after shipping.

[Bnt55]

Out of curiosity...would lead from an all rifle range (no pistol) have a higher BHN?

[imashooter2]

Probably lower. More jacketed, less commercial cast.

[Soundguy]

Out of curiosity...would lead from an all rifle range (no pistol) have a higher BHN?

If it was cast rifle only..yes..but as said.. Commercial jacketed rounds won't have super hard cores.

[Kraschenbirn]

If it's anything like the club range I shoot on, scrap from the rifle berms may have a LOWER Bhn than from the pistol berms. Why? Because most of what's mined from the rifle berms is jacketed commercial and milsurp with (nearly) pure lead cores. There are only two or three of us (from 250 members) who shoot cast in 'modern' calibers and, maybe another dozen or so who shoot 'cowboy' leverguns and/or BPCRs.

Used to recover a lot of commercial cast from the pistol berms but, these days, we have very few reloaders and those who don't reload shoot mostly jacketed 9mm or .22s.

Bill

[P Flados]

Bnt55,

No.

Most rifle ranges have a very high percentage of low BHN jacketed bullets. Your yield of lead per pound of scrap is also less as many rifle bullet jackets are quite thick and the longer bullet are more prone to trapping lead in the bullet as you skim the jackets out of your melt.

Commercial hard cast pistol bullets and plated bullets use very hard lead and are used at a much higher percentage of rounds fired in a typical pistol range.

Now if you have a rifle range that is more popular for large bore cast bullet shooting than a typical rifle range, you may get lucky. The big cast bullets for guns like the 45-70 are a great find when harvesting range scrap.

[Bnt55]

yeah, Im guessing its mostly deer hunting rifle calibers. I may get a bucket and see what I come up with, but it may be more work than what it's worth.

[P Flados]

If rifle range scrap is your only choice, it is still lead.

With the heavier jackets, it is potentially worth more effort to get them as clean as possible and try to sell the jackets to a scrap yard.

[imashooter2]

Call around before you put a lot of work into the jackets. Many folks report good prices selling them, but the yards around here won’t touch them.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Out of curiosity...would lead from an all rifle range (no pistol) have a higher BHN?


If it's anything like the club range I shoot on, scrap from the rifle berms may have a LOWER Bhn than from the pistol berms. Why? Because most of what's mined from the rifle berms is jacketed commercial and milsurp with (nearly) pure lead cores. There are only two or three of us (from 250 members) who shoot cast in 'modern' calibers and, maybe another dozen or so who shoot 'cowboy' leverguns and/or BPCRs.

Used to recover a lot of commercial cast from the pistol berms but, these days, we have very few reloaders and those who don't reload shoot mostly jacketed 9mm or .22s.

Bill

Adding to what Bill said about Rifle berms...
My club's rifle range gets a good dose of 22LR, Muzzleloader projectiles, and shotgun slugs...all of which are usually soft lead. Actually, besides the large percentage of 223/556 (police qual shoots), there is actually only a small percentage of centerfire rifle bullets in the recovered mix.

[fredj338]

Clip ww by themselves are hard enough for most handgun needs. Adding 1# lino makes them pretty hard, probably good for many rifle loads. I use range scrap 4-1 with clip ww for most handgun needs. If powder coating & water dropped out of the oven, plenty hard for even magnum handguns.

[Sasquatch-1]

If the rifle range you are mining is anything like the club I belong to, you are probably getting mostly .22 cal bullet such as used in the 223. Other then the members who show up just before hunting season and a cast bullet shooting group. Most of what I see on the rifle range is AR based. Using 1/4" hardware cloth screen will let most of those fall through with the dirt.

Our pistol range, on the other hand, has never been professionally cleaned out. Lots of big bullets and easy to get half of a 5 gallon bucket in 20 minutes or less. This is all I've cast with for pistol for the last 10 or 12 years. Occasionally I will add tin and almost never add Lino.

[Roundball]

I'm trying to play catch up on making usable alloy. The range scrap from our pistol range has a high proportion of hard commercial cast bullets. That plus the antimony in bullet cores make for a shootable alloy. The downfall here is there is no reliable method here for testing hardness. I am convinced it's necessary to find out what the scrap is before adding anything to harden. Of late some experiments have been done with Super Hard. Perhaps a better use of time would be to find a source for scrap other than from the range. One bias here is not to buy or get anything in ingots. Ingots show up where zinc wheel weights are in the mix. That does not work. I did not read about this in a book but being peeing on the electric fence. Also, I need to get an accurate way of testing lead for hardness.

[imashooter2]

I'm trying to play catch up on making usable alloy. The range scrap from our pistol range has a high proportion of hard commercial cast bullets. That plus the antimony in bullet cores make for a shootable alloy. The downfall here is there is no reliable method here for testing hardness. I am convinced it's necessary to find out what the scrap is before adding anything to harden. Of late some experiments have been done with Super Hard. Perhaps a better use of time would be to find a source for scrap other than from the range. One bias here is not to buy or get anything in ingots. Ingots show up where zinc wheel weights are in the mix. That does not work. I did not read about this in a book but being peeing on the electric fence. Also, I need to get an accurate way of testing lead for hardness.

Buy a Lee hardness tester or look into the pencil tests that are on a sticky thread.

[Soundguy]

Agreed. A lee hardness tester gives you decent useable ball park hardness . won't tell you alloy..but..if you can weigh the lead and calculate the volume.. And know approx hardness..you can make some educated guestamints. Remember.. The more tin and antimony a mix has..the harder it is.. But it also weighs less. Ie..drop a slug of pure lead vs allow from a mold..the hard lead weighs less..

[Sasquatch-1]

Personally, I went with the Cabine Tree tester. I have also used the LBT and would recommend that also.

[243winxb]

Sierra makes the core of the bullet from four lead alloys: 6% antimony-4% tin, 6% antimony, 3% antimony, 1 1/2% antimony and pure lead.

[SteveM54]

I lived on at the school gun range when I went to Trinidad, CO gunsmithing. Mined the berms for over a year, lots of work but well worth the effort.

[Bigslug]

You may find this helpful: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?269789-Careful-Analysis-of-Segregated-Range-Scrap-Smelt&highlight=segregated+range+scrap

My first post, with it's edits, pretty much outlines the Odyssey, but should help advance your knowledge of what's in your cookie dough.

[facetious]

I did a big batch of range scrap last year. It was collected over many years and was mostly jacketed. After some reading on here I added 2 % pewter . I cast some test boolits , I air cooled some and WD'ed some. After aging I found the WD'ed ones to be about as hard as air cooled WW's. This was done by putting them in a vice with a WW boolit.