Levergun choices and Winchestor receivers?

[KS1911]

I've been kicking the idea around of getting a levergun lately. I've been looking at the octagon barrel cowboy models made by both Winchester and Marlin. I'm leaning toward one in .44 mag (or may just say screw it, and go with a 45-70 guide gun). Anyway I've read about the twist rate difference in the Winchester vs. the Marlin and was leaning toward the Winchester.
However, I was told that Winchester uses some funky alloy receivers that are not steel and will not take blueing at all. Same source said that Marlin still uses steel receivers. I found the following info, but could not find any info on the current production Winchester 1894 receivers. Anyone know about the current receivers?

"Winchester 1894 receivers between 2,770,000 and 5,024,957 (1964-1981) were machined from a graphitic steel casting and will not accept normal blueing. To make it more confusing, serial numbers 3,185,692 to 3,806,499 (1968-1972) were black chrome plated, and 3,806,500 to 5,024,957 (1972 -1981) were iron plated. I can hot blue all of these, but must first grind off the plating. The shiniest finish that can go on these is 400 grit ( about factory)."

The idea of getting a lever action is based on the fact that I have never owned one before. I really don't have a "use" for it other than a new "toy" to play with. I may take it hunting once in awhile so that's a consideration (not really but I have to lie to myself for some kind of justification)

Lastly, any reasons to go with one rifle over the other?

[Scrounger]

This is just opinion, of course. Admittedly the Marlin barrel problems, 38" twist instead of the 18" it should be, and Microgroove rifling and oversize bores, do exist. That being said, if you use .434 cast bullets or .430 jacketed bullets, they will shoot every bit as good as the Winchester, and the rest of the gun is definitely an upgrade over Winchester. Just handle them both, you'll feel it. Another alternative is to get the Marlin in .45 Colt. It has Ballard rifling and a more correct twist, and the normally placid load of the .45 Colt can safely be stepped up to match the .44 Mag. That last statement will get me disagreement and criticizm that I won't respond to (so don't bother sending it) but we went through this about 6 or 8 months ago and I believe R2 thoroughly proved my point. Not to mention an article in Rifle Magazine about three years ago by Bryan Pearce that listed loading data that exceeded .44 Magnum power. You pays your money and you takes your choice.

[felix]

Scrounger, 26 twist is about perfect for what we typically shoot in the 44's and 45's. A 36 twist will shoot 265 grainer 44s. I've shot 300 grainer LBT LFN 45s with the 26 twist out to about 250 yards with perfect results. Marlin's 18 twist in the 41 mag lever gun is way too much twist, and would be even more excessive for 44 and 45s. The proposed 18 twist would be perfect for 500 grainers at 1000 yards. ... felix

[Trailblazer]

Winchester 94 receivers since 1982 are forged steel and have the normal blue on them.

[KS1911]

Winchester 94 receivers since 1982 are forged steel and have the normal blue on them.


Trailblazer, Thanks for the info. I hoped it had not become a permanent thing.


So Felix, I get the idea that you would choose the Winchester over the Marlin if chambered in .44 mag?

I really would like to physically pick up each and compare them as Scrounger mentioned but none of the shops around have either (no guide gun either). So more than likely I'll have to order one. Maybe I'll get lucky and find one or both somewhere between all the beef jerky, swords, and crappy jewelry tables :roll: at the next couple of gunshows.

[felix]

KS1911, yes, but only because of the twist. If Marlin would produce a better barrel, then the choice would be Marlin. But then, it depends on the feel of the gun, too. Some days I like the Marlin, and on other days the Winnie wins. ... felix

[Scrounger]

It is definitely a personal preference thing, whatever you choose is the right choice--- until or unless you change your mind, which some of us have been known to do. Beagle is very high on his Winchester Legacy in .44 Mag.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Most of the guys here start with one or another and end up with a cupboard full of predominately one brand, with one or two of the other brand.

I generally prefer Winchesters, but for scoped use (mind you I don't bother with scopes on levers) I feel that the Marlin is better set up.

Go the range and try and cadge a few shots, check the 'feel' and balance of each. They aren't real dear second hand, so you could probably buy one of each if you put your mind to it.

[Frank46]

I have to agree somewhat with mick. Somewhat because I have2 winchesters and three marlins. But these really were not purchased with anything in mind except the 94 canadian centennial in 30-30. That has the tightest chamber of any 30-30 I've had and deep mauser type rifling. The other rifle a 444 marlin was bought when I first moved here to loosiana. Wanted something relatively powerful and used so I did not have to worry about the stock.
With factory loads will do 2.5" with a 1.5x5 scope on it. The previous scope gave up the ghost when the groups stated going south. You could hear the lens rattling inside the scope. The other marlins and the winchester BB sort of followed me home. Frank

[Buckshot]

...............I've never owned a pistol cartridge levergun. However I have a friend who is an avid cowboy action shooter. When Marlin came out with their Cowboy 24" octagon barreled, tweaked, tuned and pre-slicked model he bought one in 45 Colt for a bit over $600.

His generic 45 Colt load for rifle and pistol was and still is 7.0 Unique and a 225gr cast FN commercial slug. He buys them from one of the other shooters in his posse. The first day he had it at the range he had some of his pistol ammo to shoot. I got my chance to shoot it and managed to place 5 rounds all touching and overapping each other at 50 yards, off the bench. I was sure impressed.

I am rather partial to Marlins, and 1893's at that. Winchester 94's are just too rattley for me. I have seen a couple Marlins that wouldn't shoot without a bit of help due to levergunitis, too. A new gun is always an unknown and a bit spooky to take out the first time. Like, what is it going to do?

I suppose the Marlin or Winchester thing is like the Ford or Chevy deal. Of course there is also Rossi :-). A couple friends and I one rainy day last year, made a day of it having lunch while riding around to visit most the local gunshops. At one of the last stops, they had a Rossi in on consignment I should have bought on the spot. It was tagged $300. It was naturally a Win 92 copy. It had a part octagon part round 24" bbl with a half magazine and the bluing was lustrus.

Normally I'd have whipped out the plastic but a fit of assumed maturity overwhelmed me. This was on a Thursday and I decided if I called them on Sunday and they still had it I'd go get it. You guessed it, it was gone. I console myself by figureing it would have been a dog. It sure was purdy though! The 45 Colt would be my choice for a cartridge. Look what DIck Casull did with it.

....................Buckshot

[KS1911]

Hey thanks for all the replies.

I think I'll keep an eye out for a used one (or two) for awhile. If I can't find one that I like or at all, I can always order one in. Besides its just another one on the toy list and may get bumped back down the list again anyway.

[Frank46]

I bought both pistol caliber marlin 1894's kinda cheep. Think I paid $225 for the 44 and $145 for the 357. The 357 is a joy to shoot, but the 44 lets you know when it going off. Have to change the lever lock spring as it sometimes feels like it wants to open. The sights on the 44 did not have to be adjusted and the 357 was way off. But I kinda like them pistol caliber carbines. Maybe your best bet is to look for a used one providing the price isn't too high. Frank

[Four Fingers of Death]

There was a 44mag Marlin trapper which had been ridden hard and put away wet a few times at the gunshop down the road (well down the road, 80 odd miles down the road, we are a bit gunshop shy around here, not that that stops me spending much mre than I should on guns). I must gve them a ring and see if its still in stock.

[Griff]

KS1911,
I noticed that all the replies seem to revolve around the Winch 94 or either the '93 or '94 Marlin. Don't forget the BEST carbine/rifle model for a pistol caliber. The Winchester 1892. It's made by Browning in current production in a couple of calibers, very good quality. Additionally, Rossi builds a good reproduction that generally needs a little "smoothing" work to be satisfactory to most 92 shooters. And, if you look around a little you will find several importers that have some VERY nice looking 92s. (i.e. EMF @ http://www.emf-company.com/1892-winchester-rifle-carbine.htm )

[lovedogs]

Could someone set me straight on something? I've been toying with the idea of getting me a packin' rifle to carry when up in the woods. I don't think I'd like the Win. '94, but the Marlin looks good to me. I really like my .44 mag pistols and thought a Marlin 1894 .44 mag would be just the ticket. But several times on this site I've seen it mentioned that the .44 in these carbines/rifles can kick some. I guess being familiar with .44 handguns I find it hard to imagine a rifle in that caliber kicking much at all. I'd probably use Saeco #431 (250 gr. RNFPGC) at around 1600 FPS. Appreciate any comments on recoil or anything pertaining to this type bumper jack.

[StarMetal]

Love dog, it's true, light 44 mag carbines can boot your pretty good. I have a Win 94 Trapper in 45 LC. Was at the range with a friend one day and shooting 255 gr SWC's over 9.0 grs of Unique. Friend had a Smith 25 with four inch barrel. I said here try one of my reloads. He shot and I asked, pretty mild huh. He said yeah. Then I put one in my Trapper rifle and he shot it and was convinced it wasn't the same load, but it was. Mike Venturino of Shooting Times noticed the same thing, those little buggers recoiling. Let me tell you that they don't gain a whole more energy out of the rifle, well at least the 45 LC doesn't, but I guess enough to recoil.

Joe

[9.3X62AL]

I had a Marlin 94 x 44 Magnum for a time, and while top-end loads did push back a bit--recoil impulse wouldn't prevent me from grabbing another one. A 240 grain Speer JHP at almost 1700 FPS shot very well from that MG critter. I didn't try many castings in the rifle, but IIRC they didn't do badly. Once I started playing around with the inherited Win '73 x 44-40, I parted with the Marlin to a friend at work. A good little rifle, it just didn't fill a niche that I had empty.

[floodgate]

And I had a Winnie '92 with the extra-light-weight gum-wood stock; about 5 1/2 lbs. It would slap me silly with factory .44&40's. Some folks would say I haven't recovered yet!

floodgate

[felix]

I have a Winnie 94. Loaded it with 24 grains of RL7, and same with 680. 26 grains was tried in the basement into a log, using the same boolit all loaded and ready to go, a 300 grain LBT LFN. Recoil was substantial, but case expansion was too much for the cases, not the gun, though. About 30K cup guesstimated. Cutting back to the 24 grains for field trials. This load is definitely not needed for anything around this area, but is being done for trajectory purposes at the riva'. 45LC. ... felix

[Scrounger]

Could someone set me straight on something? I've been toying with the idea of getting me a packin' rifle to carry when up in the woods. I don't think I'd like the Win. '94, but the Marlin looks good to me. I really like my .44 mag pistols and thought a Marlin 1894 .44 mag would be just the ticket. But several times on this site I've seen it mentioned that the .44 in these carbines/rifles can kick some. I guess being familiar with .44 handguns I find it hard to imagine a rifle in that caliber kicking much at all. I'd probably use Saeco #431 (250 gr. RNFPGC) at around 1600 FPS. Appreciate any comments on recoil or anything pertaining to this type bumper jack.

You can't cheat physics; with any given load, a 3 pound handgun HAS to kick more than a 6 pound rifle. With a pistol, much of the recoil is absorbed in the gun moving, rotating. And your bent arm acts as a piston absorbing recoil energy. With a rifle the energy is channelled straight back against your shoulder, with little gun rise. The rifle doesn't recoil more, it just feels like it.

[Ed Barrett]

I've got two Puma '92 clones in .357 and .454 , I have fired a .454 pistol and while it's impressive, it's more than I need in a pistol. But in a little carbine it's a "Short 45-70" if you want plinking loads you can run .45 LC's through it. I have not had a chance touse it hunting yet. (too many guns and too short seasons.) but it's as accurate as any lever gun I've owned, and it makes nice big holes.

[lovedogs]

Really appreciate all the comments, fellas. I've just taken delivery of a new Saeco #431 mould (250 gr. RNFPGC). I wanted to try that design in a SBH and a Super 14 Contender that I already have. I opted for that nose because I understand it was designed to feed easily in the .444, so I expect it'll do well in the .44//'94, also. Now that I have the mould that's reason enough to start saving my $$ to buy a rifle, isn't it?

By the way, I'm trying something I've been told won't work. Maybe I could get some feedback from all you experienced guys on it. I wanted to see if I could shoot softer 20:1 alloy using a GC design without too much leading. I was thinking about the possibility of getting some expansion on deer vs. no expansion with Lyman #2 alloy. In the revolver I got considerable leading. Not horrible, but more than I want. With its 5 1/2 in. bbl. I was pushing a little hard, getting almost 1300 FPS. Might work better slowed to 1200 FPS? The marvelous Contender shot the same load at nearly 1600 FPS and had so little leading that two strokes with a brush took it all out. Any comments? Is this worth investigating, or should I stick with conventional wisdom and the harder bullets?

[MikeG]

I like my LSI M92 in 454 Casull. I fire 300 grain bullets at around 1700 fps and It don't kick near as much as my Marlin 1895 45/70 with 300 grainers at around 1700 fps. I don't know why, maybe cause I use over 50 gains of powder in the 45/70 to do the same thing I can do in the 454 with just over 20 grains of powder.

The powder weight enters into the recoil equation. BTW the LSI is much lighter than the Marlin too.

Mike G.

[Newtire]

Here's my .02c worth. I have a few leverguns. The Early top eject Winchesters were very well made & the nicest pointing gun I have ever shot. The '94 black Shadow I bought a few years back is real accurate but wood-to-metal fit is crappy and the extractor works about half the time. The Marlin .444 with micro-groove barrel & all hasn't seen a jacketted bullet in over 10-years now. It outshoots anything I own with cast up to 300 gr. This is with 1-38" twist. The bullets I used in jacketted were .429" Hornady 265 gr. for the most part. Iuse cast sized to .431" and wondering why all the stuff about .434" bullets? I guess maybe some others have bigger bores. My .30-30 M336 is one with a bigger bore so have to shoot bullets with .301" noses in that or don't shoot worth talking about. Other than that, that thing shoots full charge cast along with the best of them. As far as smoothness of action, the Marlin wins hands down. I also like the fit of the parts. I'm glad I have a couple of them so I can show my grandkids with their plastic guns of the future what real guns used to look like.

[Bass Ackward]

By the way, I'm trying something I've been told won't work. Maybe I could get some feedback from all you experienced guys on it. I wanted to see if I could shoot softer 20:1 alloy using a GC design without too much leading. I was thinking about the possibility of getting some expansion on deer vs. no expansion with Lyman #2 alloy. In the revolver I got considerable leading. Not horrible, but more than I want. With its 5 1/2 in. bbl. I was pushing a little hard, getting almost 1300 FPS. Might work better slowed to 1200 FPS? The marvelous Contender shot the same load at nearly 1600 FPS and had so little leading that two strokes with a brush took it all out. Any comments? Is this worth investigating, or should I stick with conventional wisdom and the harder bullets?


Love dogs,

As with everything in cast, it depends. Where we run into trouble is when we become pretty steadfast in our loading techniques, that's when you have to gravitate to "norms" for cast bullet use. That's why one guy is shooting pure lead and Liquid Alox at a velocity you need lino to work. You see this all the time here in posts where somebody favors "one" particular technique that causes a generalization in there statements.

Where you can have problems going to softer mixes is when you don't realize that something else may need to be corrected right along with it to restore balance in your load. If you are using a .... marginal lube for the pressure / friction conditions of one gun and you try to go to a softer mix you may lead. But adjust the variables some like to another lube, or slightly larger diameter, or go to a slower powder and you can be surprised what you can do with soft mixes.

But if I had to generalize, the softer the mix, the more variables you have to think about or correct once you leave lower pressure zones normally accepted for cast which varies for each cartridge. Strangely enough, I get my greatest accuracy when I use a mix just hard enough it doesn't lead. Of coarse this can be stated many ways. Someone else say that his best accuracy comes from using this particular lube. Another may believe in the principal of using just enough lube to prevent leading. You have to look beyond what you are doing sometimes to understand why you are achieving the results you are.

Still, you may not be able to do this for hangun /rifle companion rifle use under all conditions and make it work. No matter how diligent you are in your attempts. My 44 Mag rifles have significanly larger chambers than my handguns and the cases won't seal the chamber unless I have larger bullets that don't work for beans in my handgun. I can't partial or "neck size" to get a better seal or ones from the rifle won't chamber in the revolvers. So this is a toughy to over come without accepting some accuracy compromises from both guns as an example. But I have three 06s that shoot the same mixes right down to the same loads in most cases and bore dimensions are clearly different and some of the perameters like bullet diameter break all the cast "rules". (undersize for bore, not just throat).

So you just have to try it and see how much of a .... reloading challenge you are willing to accept to shoot that softer mix.