C.O.A.L in 44 Mag underlever rifle?

[Terrya]

Hi all,
I shoot and reload for my Winchester 1894 Trapper in 44 mag. Most published load data uses 1.61" as max overall cartridge length so I've been using that with a 240gr RNFP over 7.5 gr of Unique. It shoots about 2" dia at 50 yards.
However out of idle curiosity I thought I'd check the distance to the lands in my rifle using the method with an unprimed dummy round with the head over length and then gently closing the action. The round was then sharply ejected and I measured the overall length to the lands. This was 1.77"! The accepted thing is to then back off 0.02 -0.05" to give a gap between the ogive and the lands(to avoid pressure spikes).
I understand that the 1.61" figure came about because the 44 magnum round was invented as a handgun round and the cylinder chambers were 1.61" long - so a longer round would stick out of the cylinder and jam the action. The original logic was to have rifles and handguns taking the same round; so clearly the rifle round would be limited by the handgun cylinder length However 1.61" to 1.77" is a very large gap in a rifle!
Has anyone experimented with this? I'd be interested to here your views or experiences.
I've made up some cartridges of differing COAL from 1.61, 1.63, 1.65 etc in 5 shot groups and all the same charge (7.5 gn Unique) which I plan to try this weekend. I'll let you know what I learn,
Cheers

[mehavey]

Shoot the longest AOL that will feed reliably through the action.
The action determines the max dimension in your case.

[NSB]

Since your gun doesn’t feed through the action (it’s an 1885 Trapper model) you can shoot any length bullet that will allow you to close the action without having to force the round to chamber due to hitting the lands before the lever is closed. COAL with these guns isn’t the only determining factor in COAL. Some bullets will hit the lands sooner than others due to the bullet ogive profile. This may or may not be the case with the 44mag, but it definitely is so with the 45-70. As far as using a longer COAL if it fits…..it may or may not make a difference in group size with this cartridge. I rather doubt it will make a noticeable difference with the load you’re shooting. Some other factors will have a larger impact: bullet type such as cast vs jacketed, bullet weight, and definitely powder type. I’ve been shooting 44mags for close to fifty years and those factors make the biggest difference in group size. The Miroku/Winchester guns are superbly accurate with the right load. I’d try some different powders and bullet types to see what will give you the best groups. Good luck with your fine rifle.

[mehavey]

Since your gun doesn’t feed through the action (it’s an 1885 Trapper model)

... my Winchester 1894 Trapper
It's a standard lever action. OAL limitations apply.
https://www.winchesterguns.com/products/rifles/model-94/past/model-94-trapper.html
(or did I read something wrong?)

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

SNIP>>>

Most published load data uses 1.61" as max overall cartridge length
Some reloading manuals have separate sections for 44 mag pistol and 44 mag Rifle.
Now I haven't checked those for COAL, but it the castboolit world, it's common to seat boolits to best fit your rifle...or reliably cycle through the action. Since this activity will change case capacity, and case capacity variations change chamber pressure, it's always best to work up a load, after you find a Boolit and COAL that will cycle reliably in your Levergun.

[Terrya]

Good advice JonB!

[Terrya]

Thanks Mehavey. A good pragmatic answer! A 1.72" dummy round will cycle pretty well with the head I'm using (which gives a 0.05" jump to the lands). I want to check out if there are any 'sweet spot' nodes at varying jump distances.

[mdi]

FWIW; I haven't measured OAL of any 44 Magnums I've reloaded (most favorite cartridge for 30+ years). I seat bullets to the crimp groove and that that workes in my 5, 44 Magnums with a half dozen different bullet designs. My Puma, a '92 clone, feeds Ranch Dog design bullets 100%, all crimped in the crimp groove...

[gwpercle]

Load to the crimp groove ...
Lever actions need a good roll crimp , pressure from magazine spring and recoil mandate it .
The round must feed from the magazine , through the action and chamber ... if it doesn't
Get Another Boolit mould or drop back and punt . You can single load them .
Gary

[gwpercle]

FWIW; I haven't measured OAL of any 44 Magnums I've reloaded (most favorite cartridge for 30+ years). I seat bullets to the crimp groove and that hat worked in my 5, 44 Magnums with a half dozen different bullet designs. My Puma, a '92 clone, feeds Ranch Dog design bullets 100%, all crimped in the crimp groove...

LIKE !

I hit our like button

mdi knows the score !
Gary

[Terrya]

Thanks for your input MDI and gwpercle. My heads don't have a crimp groove but I'm sure the crimp marks would relate to handgun COAL anyway. I had been loading to the mystical 1.61" COAL, but my experiment is to investigate the effect of bullet jump - which in full bore shooting has a marked effect (see various youtube videos) on accuracy, by placing the ogive closer to the rifling lands.
Now, I can see the wisdom of keeping the same COAL in the U.S. where you wouldn't want to have 44 rounds of different overall lengths - e.g. one for rifle and one for revolver in your ammo safe; but here in the UK where centrefire handguns are banned that potential problem doesn't arise. Hence my experiment to see if I can improve accuracy. On the basis that if you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got - I'm just pushing the envelope a bit to see what happens! I may well fall flat on my face and waste a lot of range time, powder and lead proving what is already accepted.... but at least I'll know why!
All the best.

And amen to the importance of a good roll crimp with lever guns!

[Terrya]

Well, back from the range this morning with the taste of Humble Pie in my mouth! I'd previously tried varying the COAL of my 44 home loads from 1.72" down to 1.60" in 0.05" intervals all loaded with 7.5 gr Unique under a plated 240gn RNFP. All cycled and fired in my 2006 US made Win 1894 Trapper. End result? Best groups were with 1.60" and 1.65" overall length at 25 yds.
This morning I was on the 50 yd range with 8.5gn Unique, same bullet head and 10 of each 1.61" overall and 1.65" overall. The 1.61" cartridges produced a 10 shot group of 1" diameter - bench rested using standard iron sights and hitting point of aim. That, I think, is as good as my 73 year old eyes can do! The 1.65" coal were OK but gave a 3" dia group.
I still don't understand why a bullet jump to the lands of .160" produces such a result... but it does! Maybe those good ol'boys at Winchester knew something!!

[Terrya]

I spoke to a very experienced shooter and reloader at the club the other day about my bullet jump findings; and I think he has hit the nail on the head ...(no pun intended!) straight away. I explained about the .160" jump and he immediately asked how deep the bullet was seated in the case. Duh! They seat about .375 (3/8") so the bullet head is still 'held/supported/guided' by the case when it meets the lands - which keeps it straight and true! There isn't a 'free space' jump at all! Now I understand, and can sleep at night!

[james2k66]

Well, back from the range this morning with the taste of Humble Pie in my mouth! I'd previously tried varying the COAL of my 44 home loads from 1.72" down to 1.60" in 0.05" intervals all loaded with 7.5 gr Unique under a plated 240gn RNFP. All cycled and fired in my 2006 US made Win 1894 Trapper. End result? Best groups were with 1.60" and 1.65" overall length at 25 yds.
This morning I was on the 50 yd range with 8.5gn Unique, same bullet head and 10 of each 1.61" overall and 1.65" overall. The 1.61" cartridges produced a 10 shot group of 1" diameter - bench rested using standard iron sights and hitting point of aim. That, I think, is as good as my 73 year old eyes can do! The 1.65" coal were OK but gave a 3" dia group.
I still don't understand why a bullet jump to the lands of .160" produces such a result... but it does! Maybe those good ol'boys at Winchester knew something!!

Thanks for the info! I have been wondering about this too. I have two loads for my Marlin a 6gr of unique for indoors (low range limits) and 8.5 for outside. Before ive been loading about 1.575. Using 240gr rnfp from shellhouse (.432) and Ace bullets plated at 429. will have a try at 1.61!

[Iowa Fox]

Well, back from the range this morning with the taste of Humble Pie in my mouth! I'd previously tried varying the COAL of my 44 home loads from 1.72" down to 1.60" in 0.05" intervals all loaded with 7.5 gr Unique under a plated 240gn RNFP. All cycled and fired in my 2006 US made Win 1894 Trapper. End result? Best groups were with 1.60" and 1.65" overall length at 25 yds.
This morning I was on the 50 yd range with 8.5gn Unique, same bullet head and 10 of each 1.61" overall and 1.65" overall. The 1.61" cartridges produced a 10 shot group of 1" diameter - bench rested using standard iron sights and hitting point of aim. That, I think, is as good as my 73 year old eyes can do! The 1.65" coal were OK but gave a 3" dia group.
I still don't understand why a bullet jump to the lands of .160" produces such a result... but it does! Maybe those good ol'boys at Winchester knew something!!

About 14 years ago I tried the same thing using 8.5 and 9 grains of Unique in a 12" Encore barrel with a long throat. My findings were exactly the same as yours on my seating depths. All I could think of was that maybe combustion was better and a little straighter shot going into the long freebore. At Christmas time this year my wife needed her wrapping paper for the grandkids stuff. She keeps it in the garage in plastic tubs and had me digging it out for her. While digging out the tub with the wrapping paper I actually found some of my paper targets with notes written on them in a different tub. I'm 73 here also, well at least for a few more months. It was sure good to look at those targets, I'm pretty shaky these days