This year I plan to hunt deer with a 357 maximum

[Camba]

I have develop an accurate load with some bullets I had available (Speer 170gr GDSP) but I would prefer to work up a load using the Lee c357-200-RF mold and Vv N110 powder that I’ve just found. I would love to hear what others come up for a load that can reach up to 2000 fps using the components I have at hand. I do have CCI-450 and also CCI-400 srp at hand and R-P 357 max cases.
My rifle is a TC Encore with an MGM barrel in 357 max. I had good luck developing the load I mentioned above, using Lil’Gun powder. Now, I am out of that powder and I will work with the N110.
Thank you for the help.
Camba


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[NSB]

I also have an MGM .357max barrel (two of them, one with 1:20 and one with 1:16 twist). I also use N110 and N120 powder. I doubt you’ll get 2,000fps with either of those powders with 180g bullets. I will add though that my most accurate loads were with both of those powders. Each will do 1moa or less for five shots using Speer HotCore 180g .358 bullets. Last year I shot two deer at a measured 189 yards with that load and neither one went more than twenty yards. My fastest loads were with 1680 powder and those loads shot reasonably well, but not as well as the Viht powders shot.

[Camba]

NSB,
Thank you for the info.
What bullet weigh you use and what is your velocity?
I have a free reloading manual of vv powders and the 357 max loads listed are for revolver levels. I should be able to go higher than those loads in my tc encore. Don’t you think?
Camba


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[wolfdog]

Part of me really thinks I need to turn my 357mag Henry single shot into a 357max. But I have a lever action 35rem...and the magnum isn't really lacking....you make things hard.
291172

[selmerfan]

I've got an 18" .357 Max MGM barrel in 1-16" twist. It likes the 180 gr. Speer spire points and performance was stellar last year, which was the first year I used those bullets. Every other year I've used the RD 359-190-RFGC with 27 gr. 1680 and they run just a hair under 2000 fps. I have yet to recover one of those boolits, everything from 35 yards to 197 yards. It's a GREAT hunting combo here in Iowa, especially because I can use it in the late muzzleloader season as a pistol. :D

[NSB]

NSB,
Thank you for the info.
What bullet weigh you use and what is your velocity?
I have a free reloading manual of vv powders and the 357 max loads listed are for revolver levels. I should be able to go higher than those loads in my tc encore. Don’t you think?
Camba


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If you look through most, if not all, reloading manuals you’ll see that the loads shown are the same whether or not they are shot out of a revolver or a rifle. You will get some added velocity out of a longer barrel. My MGM barrels are both 20” and they are giving about 200 fps more than what is shown for a handgun. Still a little short of 2,000 fps. Still, it’s more than enough to get the job done. I’ve shot well over fifty deer with a .357mag handgun and it’s never let me down. The max just gives you a bit more.

[cwtebay]

I have to say that 180 grain bullet travelling at 2080fps is absolutely deadly on deer.... but I only own a 1907 Winchester in 351. Basically the same ballistics as the 357 Max data that I am seeing from this discussion.

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[Camba]

I am going to start with the revolver loads with the vv n110 powder and see how it goes. If anyone has been there and done that, please chime in.


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[Camba]

I would like to to know


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[kingrj]

You may want to look at Allient Reloader 7 as an alternative powder...In my 10" 357H Contender I get 1950 fps with a 158 gr JHP with 1 moa accuracy. I would expect no less excellent results in the Max with a longer barrel.

[Camba]

Powder availability is the problem. I would love to find Rel 7, AA1680, Lil’Gun, etc. so I can only deal with vv n110 now which is all I have for powder.


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[sixshot]

I've taken several deer & 3 antelope with my 10.5" Ruger 357 Maximum, mostly using 180 gr cast slugs & 4227. Lil'Gun is not a good powder in revolvers. Getting right at 1600 fps in my gun using a Remington 7 1/2 primer & Starline brass.

Dick

[TCLouis]

sixshot
Are those cast 180s Ranch Dogs or Lar45s?

[wolfdog]

I have 2 lbs of lil'gun. Would that help in any way?

[badguybuster]

Lil Gun is THE POWDER for rifle loads in 357 and 44 mag

[NSB]

I am going to start with the revolver loads with the vv n110 powder and see how it goes. If anyone has been there and done that, please chime in.


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I used that load last year and shot two deer at a measured 189 yards. It shoots five shot 1moa groups at 100 yards and is the most accurate load I’ve found to date. You’re all set to go with that load. V120 shoots equally well.

[wolfdog]

I use a lot of IMR4227 and HS6, I find max charges of little gun don't give my most accurate loads most times. To the point that I'm sitting on 2lbs of Lil'gun that may not get used for a while.

[NSB]

I use a lot of IMR4227 and HS6, I find max charges of little gun don't give my most accurate loads most times. To the point that I'm sitting on 2lbs of Lil'gun that may not get used for a while.
I just gave over a pound of it away this week. I’ve never found it to be the best powder in anything. It’s also to hot burning. A couple of shots and your barrel is really heated up.

[Camba]

NSB,
That is an impressive group you got there!


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[NSB]

NSB,
That is an impressive group you got there!


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I’m old, retired, and really like sitting at the bench playing around seeing what kind of groups I can get with different guns. I’ve been doing this for years. Kind of a boring and useless hobby, but it keeps me happy. I just like to shoot. I will add that you DO NOT need to shoot groups like that to hunt deer. If you’re getting a couple of inches at 100 yards you’re probably good to go for deer hunting. I’m not suggesting you don’t try to get better, but don’t beat yourself up over it if hunting is all you’re looking to do. You don’t need to shoot sub 1moa to hunt successfully. Have fun and good luck hunting.

[wolfdog]

Same here, I have two rifles in .357mag that group well with IMR4227 and a couple other powders, loads with Lil'gun from min to max won't group anywhere near close, so I don't use much of the stuff.

[Camba]

Wolfdog,
You got a nice set up there. I love the Henry single shot rifles. I have 4 of those. I do like to get the 357 magnum one. Does yours have a deeper chamber to fit a 360 DW case like the contenders do?
The reason I ask is because I like to keep my rifle loads from been fired in a revolver. The 360 DW prevents that for me and I have 500 new Starline cases.


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[sixshot]

I've actually used the Keith 173 gr bullet, an NOE 180 gr mold that was a good one, should have kept it. One of Lars45's designs, should have kept that one also. And I'm using a 175 gr HP that is working well, both on deer & antelope. It still comes down to placement & penetration whatever you use.
Save that Lil Gun for the closed breech guns, it's excellent but its tough on revolvers!

Dick

[wolfdog]

No idea, never seen a 360 so can't even check. My rifle load is safe in my handguns so not worried.

[hc18flyer]

Wolfdog- Headed out with my Henry single shot in .357 Maximum in the morning. I have loads worked up for the Hornady 180 SSP and the 180 Larson rnfp cast bullet. My shot should be within 125 yards? hc18flyer

[wolfdog]

Wolfdog- Headed out with my Henry single shot in .357 Maximum in the morning. I have loads worked up for the Hornady 180 SSP and the 180 Larson rnfp cast bullet. My shot should be within 125 yards? hc18flyer

I'm shooting a 357 mag, 1500fps I think. I didn't have a lot of shock at 120 yards, but it penetrated well and shot placement was on. I think with your extra power, you're fine.

[hc18flyer]

I plan to use the 180 Larson flat point at 1850 fps. If I do my part, shouldn't be a long tracking job? Wish me luck, hc18flyer

[Camba]

Now, if the deer would cooperate…
I have no seen a decent deer yet.


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[Beerd]

I plan to use the 180 Larson flat point at 1850 fps. If I do my part, shouldn't be a long tracking job? Wish me luck, hc18flyer

methinks you will do well with that bullet.
..

[P Flados]

I have develop an accurate load with some bullets I had available (Speer 170gr GDSP) but I would prefer to work up a load using the Lee c357-200-RF mold and Vv N110 powder that I’ve just found. I would love to hear what others come up for a load that can reach up to 2000 fps using the components I have at hand. I do have CCI-450 and also CCI-400 srp at hand and R-P 357 max cases.
My rifle is a TC Encore with an MGM barrel in 357 max. I had good luck developing the load I mentioned above, using Lil’Gun powder. Now, I am out of that powder and I will work with the N110.
Thank you for the help.
Camba


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Camba, I looked over this thread and did not see where you ended up load wise and did not see a barrel length.

I have loaded for the 357 Max since the 1980s in handguns (DW revolver, 10" & 14" TC Contenders) and the 357 AR Max in a 16" gun.

I ran 296 for years and then switched to H110. The H110 gave me problems and I switched to WC 680 (milsurp version of 1680) for my IHMSA loads and my 357 AR Max loads.

With an Encore, you are safe loading to 65,000 psi as this gun is also offered in 270 Win. I recommend stopping around 60,000 psi to prolong case life.

I ran Quickload and found that VV N110 is probably very close to or just a tad better than the WC 680 that I am now using. It actually runs out of case space before getting to the pressures I was discussing above. It gets about 100 fps less than H110 and Lil Gun as a result.

Your VV N110 is a probably one of the better choices for powder in that you get good velocities at a case full of powder and you get this at lower pressures than H110 or Lil Gun. Lower pressures can sometimes help with cast boolit accuracy.

With an 18" barrel (wild guess on my part), a very small amount of compression (102% fill) you should be able to get around 1900 fps with the Lee 200 and a OAL of 2.08" (the OAL I used in the Max for this boolit). To go faster will probably require more compression and/or a longer OAL. I ran 2.2" for OAL and got 2005 fps at 102% fill.

If you will post more details (barrel length, max OAL you are willing to use) I can run these parameters and see what the results look like.

[Camba]

P Flados,
Awesome information! That is what I was looking for.my barrel is a 21” MGM 357 max 1:16” twist and I found a load that shoots around 1” groups at 100 yards. I have not yet chrono it for velocity but I figure is flying at roughly 2200 fps.
I worked this load from 20 gr to 26 gr of Lil’Gun and a 170gr Speer GDSP bullet.
I did get similar accuracy at 21.5gr and at 26gr with the same bullet.
My chamber is deep and I could seat the bullets far out.
Disclaimer: I would not recommend this load for revolver or the tc contender frame.
Thank you for the information.
Camba


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[Camba]

I have made some loads using the vv n110 and the group was promising but too slow using the listed loads. I will work up a load when I get back home on monday. I have an 8 pound jug of vv n110 to do that.


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[P Flados]

FYI,

The max is pretty efficient in carbine length barrels. As such, your 21" will only get 40 to 50 fps more than an 18" with the VV N110 and a 200 gr boolit.

[Camba]

Today I killed a doe with my 357 max and the load with the Lil’Gun powder and 170 gr GDSP bullet. It was a neck shot and a laser measured 125 yard distance. It was DRT shot. I gave the deer to my son in law. The shot went through the neck and it also the bullet re enter the deer right before the hind quarter. He is going to send me the pictures of the wound and the bullet if he finds it.
That is deer 1 with that rifle/barrel combination.


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[Camba]

I will be testing some load with the vv n110 powder soon.


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[P Flados]

Given the similarity to 1680, I am confident that there are some great N110 loads waiting for you to find them. Based on my experiences, play around with your AOL but pay close attention to your % fill. For 1680, others have reported good results with more compression, but I was not happy with any load that had more than just a little bit of compression. N110 is an extruded powder so it may be happy with more compression than 1680 (a ball powder).

And with 8 lbs (this used to be my standard purchase size, but the last few orders were multiple jugs), once you find the loads your gun is happy with, it is hard for me to see you going through a jug with the Max and an Encore.

I have something of an emotional bias for cast boolits, but you will probably want to work up a J word load. As you seat further out, do not be afraid to work your way up to some amount of compression.

[Camba]

Excellent!
Thank you.


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[Camba]

I’ve got one more doe yesterday with my TC Encore 357 max mgm barrel rifle. I shot it from a sitting position to about 220 yards. I was surprised to see her go down like hit by lightning. I aimed at the shoulder high but I hit her on the neck. She was broadside. The 170gr Speer GDSP bullet went through and through. No need tracking it.
This gun combination has become my favorite for hunting.
I need to develop another load for next year since I loaded all my 170gr GDSP already and Speer has discontinued that product.

[badguybuster]

For the maximum in a single shot, I would think that you could use some of the heavier .358 projectiles. Especially ones for 358 yeti. I use a 158 grain jsp pushed by Lil.Gun in my Win 92. Itll take anything short of the great bears.
Everything I have shot with that load has dropped in its tracks. The bullets dumps.all its energy inside the critter and just turns their organs to mush. The bear I shot suffered a broken neck (vertebrae were shattered), massive tissue damage and a completely severed trachea.

[Camba]

So far, I have 3 good loads for my 357 max: one with the 170 gr GDSP, the other is the hornady 180gr xtp and last is the 158gr xtp.
All 3 loads are very accurate.
I have not yet gotten a good load with the 200 gr Lee rf gc.
I did buy powder to give it a try (vv n110). I will be testing that soon.


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[HD.375]

I’ve got one more doe yesterday with my TC Encore 357 max mgm barrel rifle. I shot it from a sitting position to about 220 yards. I was surprised to see her go down like hit by lightning. I aimed at the shoulder high but I hit her on the neck. She was broadside. The 170gr Speer GDSP bullet went through and through. No need tracking it.
This gun combination has become my favorite for hunting.
I need to develop another load for next year since I loaded all my 170gr GDSP already and Speer has discontinued that product.

i think there is a fascination and a real draw card to LEver guns, Cast boolits and hunting with them... particularly when not boasting published Data from J bullets, I find the researching , discussing questioning, doubting and excitement all plays a huge part in my cycle of lever gun hunting.......... the above post basically confirms this.

You intially asked if it were guna be enough etc, Now you dumped what sounds like 3 deers on their Ass with said Combo, an now you feel quite Confident and Content with what you created.

this itself, is a major draw for me on Lever guns......... but, Now i want a 30-30 AND a 357!!!!

[Camba]

P Flados,
I put together some ladder loads using the vv N110 powder, S&B srp, and Hornady 158gr XTP bullets, and tested my T/C Encore rifle with a 21” MGM barrel.
I have nothing but success!
All 5 loads gave me less than an inch at 50 yards. The primers did not show any high pressure sign. The one with the heaviest powder load (#5), got two out of 5 cases a little sticky.
My best groups seem to be #2 and #4.
#3 is also OK if I ignore the flier.
Next time I will bring the chrono to measure velocity.
The picture showing the fired cases are from top to bottom (#1-#5 loads).

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211204/00829a5129674e0a75295f62e0603e6b.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211204/65f9f9d1a4f5098b5f2cf2ec3c3911bc.jpg
Thank you.
Camba


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[P Flados]

Good looking groups.

Out of curiosity, do you know where your 158 gr XTP and N110 loads are with respect to seating depth and percent fill. Once you get chrono data it will be interesting to compare with QL numbers. With accurate seating depth and percent fill, some of my Max loads were within 20 fps.

Second item, I was wondering if you know the max recommended terminal velocity for the 158 XTP. Some folks with the 350L reported over expansion (no pass through) with short range shots and bullets under 170 grs.

Third item, I recognize the case in the middle of the bottom row on your post. I bought 3 boxes (150 pieces) of that brass for $27.54 total from "The Silhouette". Of course that was in late 1985. The Dan Wesson gun was $314.55 and the shipping to my FFL was $3.00. A few pieces of the brass have split, some have pockets that are a little loose, but I still use it for "just shooting" mid level loads.

[Camba]

P Flados,
1. I will check my notes. I remember seeing a seating dept of 1/8” or maybe a little more like perhaps half way between the base of the bullet and the crimp.
The loads eventually was compressed somewhat.
2. I have hear both ways the same story. Perhaps they do not hold well at short distance. I will continue to use the Speer GDSP 170gr for deer. It did well.
3. The case you were looking at, I got it along with 50 cases I’ve got in trade in this site. Only 3 to 5 cases were like that.

I will be checking velocity on those loads to see how fast they go. I will let you know.
Camba


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[Camba]

P Flados,
I’ve got more info to answer your questions:
The OAL for all the loads listed is 2.069”
The 25.0gr is almost full case. The 24.1gr is not as full but close. Both of those loads were compressed loads.
The bullet is seated about .19” into the case.
I will attach pictures later.
I am curious of what your QL program says.
Camba


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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211206/68cfc89f9d43a5174bc342407208c7a3.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211206/4fc82ac3a4659823f3e8b178d8c93fb0.jpg

[P Flados]

Warning: The data in this post reflects calculated pressures (not test data) and the pressure limit was set for 65,000 psi based use in a TC Encore where the gun is also factory chambered for the 270 Winchester. This data is not recommended for any gun without proper understanding of working up loads and proper understanding of gun limitations.

I plugged in the 25 grs and played around to confirm that your specific components match what is in Quickload (QL). QL said that 25 grs should come to 0.064" below the top of a case that is 1.600" long. With an extruded powder I think the program is assuming "well settled" instead of just poured into the case. With the picture as shown, I would say that the QL assumptions for powder density and case capacity are "close enough".

And just for your info, other QL parameters for this load include:

The 158 XTP is 0.675" long giving a seating depth of 0.206" with a 2.069" OAL and 1.600" case.

I set QL to run a table with 0.25 gr powder increments:




Cartridge : .357 Maximum (SAAMI)
Bullet : .357, 158, Hornady HP/XTP 35750
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.069 inch = 52.55 mm
Barrel Length : 21.0 inch = 533.4 mm
Powder : Vihtavuori N110 *C
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-09.4 98 21.75 2169 1651 39519 3015 100.0 1.158
-08.3 99 22.00 2189 1681 40872 3029 100.0 1.142
-07.3 100 22.25 2208 1711 42269 3043 100.0 1.127
-06.3 101 22.50 2228 1741 43710 3057 100.0 1.113
-05.2 103 22.75 2247 1771 45198 3071 100.0 1.099
-04.2 104 23.00 2266 1801 46735 3085 100.0 1.085
-03.1 105 23.25 2285 1832 48321 3098 100.0 1.071
-02.1 106 23.50 2304 1862 49960 3111 100.0 1.058
-01.0 107 23.75 2322 1892 51653 3124 100.0 1.045
+00.0 108 24.00 2341 1923 53401 3137 100.0 1.032
+01.0 109 24.25 2360 1953 55208 3150 100.0 1.020
+02.1 110 24.50 2378 1984 57076 3162 100.0 1.007 ! Near Maximum !
+03.1 112 24.75 2396 2015 59007 3174 100.0 0.995 ! Near Maximum !
+04.2 113 25.00 2415 2045 61003 3186 100.0 0.984 ! Near Maximum !
+05.2 114 25.25 2433 2076 63068 3197 100.0 0.972 ! Near Maximum !

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 108 24.00 2397 2016 63939 3004 100.0 0.977 ! Near Maximum !
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 108 24.00 2252 1780 43097 3325 99.8 1.110

[Camba]

Excellent data from the QL program!
I will be testing two loads (24.5 and 25.0) for velocity and will let you know.
I am impressed with the QL load calculator. Definite helps when developing loads.
Thank you for the info.
Camba


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[P Flados]

If the result do not match very good, the "Ba" parameter for the powder can be tweaked. Right now, most powders I have been able to check out do pretty good with the default parameters. From my experiences, the one powder that QL does the worst with is Lil Gun. Then again, based on what I have read, Lil Gun seems to be a little weird and not entirely predictable.

Check out your OALs for other bullets you might want to run with N110 and post them.

I will run them through QL with the table output.

[Camba]

Will do.


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[Jason Gilmour]

I don have much to add but I love reading about the 357 max.I have 2 handi rifle and would really lik a 357. Lil Gun and 4227 are my favorite powders. I have used both cast and jacketed to take deer.

[cwtebay]

An 1892 in 357 Max would be pretty darn neat.

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[Camba]

That would be awesome!
I thought I read something somewhere that either made a modification to a 30-30 size action with a 357 mag marlin lever.
It seem too complicated to pursue; but that would have been a good lever gun for me. I am happy with the tc encore single shot rifle.


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[P Flados]

Back when the whole "straight wall deer rules" first started to gain momentum, Remington really missed the boat. They had put their name on the Max and at the time they owned Marlin. For the factory, tweaking a 30-30 lever to accept 357 max would have been easy. With less marketing than Winchester did for the 350L, they would have had plenty of lever lovers just itching to try one.

[rockrat]

And I would have been in line to buy a levergun in 357max.

[Meatpuppet]

Today I loaded up three different 180gr swaged, jacketed bullets. The jacket is an annealed 9mm casing, drawn down to .355dia, an Accurate Molds 32-120C cast boolet as a core, and then swaged up to .358 in BT Sniper's Wide Meplat, S6 Ogive spire point and Hollowpoint Point forming Dies.

The S6 Ogive and the HP are sitting on 21gr of VV N110 and the Wide Meplat is on 21.5gr VV N110. Overall length for all of them is 2.20oal. They should chrono out at around 1930fps/1500fpe in a 16" barrel. I dropped my powder charge by 0.5gr in each because I was getting all that I needed and diddnt want a compressed load.
292966
292965
292967

[Camba]

P Flados,
I tested the the following loads for the 357 maximum 21” bbl to see the velocity and here are the results:
1. 158 xtp, 25.0 gr v n110, s&b srp,
OAL 2.079” ave. Vel. 2,388.
Max vel 2,416 (twice)
Min vel 2,338 fps
Velocities: 2,338; 2,416; 2,416; 2,375; 2,396.

2. 158 xtp, 24.3gr v n110, s&b srp, oal 2.079”
Avg vel: 2,319 fps
Max vel: 2,340 fps
Mix vel: 2,302 fps
Shots: 2,315; 2,329; 2,302; 2,308; 2,340

3. This one is for 350 legend
147 xtp, 24.3gr vn110, s&b srp, oal 2.130”
Avg cel: 2,304 fps
Max vel: 2,310 fps
Min vel: 2,297 fps
Shots: 2,303; 2,307; 2,301; 2,298; 2,310

What is interesting is how close your QL values were with respect to the actual testing. Kudos to you on the knowledge of entering the parameters to the program.
Thank you.
Camba


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[Camba]

Beautiful looking swaged bullets, Meatpuppet!


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[Daekar]

Beautiful looking swaged bullets, Meatpuppet!


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It really is. You should see his work in person, every darn boolit is a work of art!

[P Flados]

P Flados,

What is interesting is how close your QL values were with respect to the actual testing. Kudos to you on the knowledge of entering the parameters to the program.
Thank you.
Camba


With my 357AR Max, I collected chrono data while playing around with small changes in charges and AOLs. Shortly after this I got the Quickload program and went back & plugged in loads. I found the program to be very good for velocity with the powders I was using as long as I was careful with the parameters that define percent fill (bullet length, case length, case capacity and AOL).


For you 25.0 gr 357 Max load, I ran with your 2.079 AOL and got 2397 fps calculated vs. your 2388 fps
For you 24.3 gr 357 Max load, I ran with your 2.079 AOL and got 2346 fps calculated vs. your 2319 fps


I also ran your 350L load. I am not sure if it has the same barrel length, and we have not confirmed the case capacity / powder density info is good.


For you 24.3 gr 350L load, I ran with your 2.130 AOL and got 2356 fps calculated vs. your 2304 fps


Are your velocities corrected back to muzzle, or are they the raw numbers at some distance out?

[Camba]

My chrono was about 12’ in front of the myzzle.
The 350 legend is a Henry ssr 22” bbl


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[P Flados]

Quicktarget estimated velocity correction for 12' and the 158 is 16 fps.


For you 25.0 gr 357 Max load, I ran with your 2.079 AOL and got 2397 fps calculated vs. your 2388 + 16 = 2404 fps

For you 24.3 gr 357 Max load, I ran with your 2.079 AOL and got 2346 fps calculated vs. your 2319 + 16 = 2335 fps


I also ran your 350L load with 22" barrel. The 147 gr correction back to muzzle is 16 fps


For you 24.3 gr 350L load, I ran with your 2.130 AOL and got 2356 fps calculated vs. your 2304 + 16 = 2320 fps

[doulos]

The .357 Max is really underrated as a deer cartridge only by those who have never seen it in action. I had a Contender in .357 Max I foolishly sold. It was a real problem for any deer If I had a rest and I could get my 2 power Burris crosshairs on the vitals.

[Camba]

I killed 2 does this season with my 357 maximum. One at 125 yards (head shot because I could only see its head above the grass) and another at 220 yards open field, off hand leaned my back agains tree for steadiness. This was hit a the base of the neck. I aimed at the top of the shoulder.
Needless to say, I am happy with the 35 caliber and especially the 357 maximum.


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