Anneling and cast

[Wolfdog91]

Well I just picked up a 3/8's deep well socket and some carriage bolts , about to dabble into the world of annealing because alot of this lake city brass I got is coming on 3-6x firings. I know most of the bench rest ,let and PRS guys talk about how GOOD anneling helps with more then just brass life but also more consistent neck tension, which helps intun with lower SD's. Now that all fine and dandy really excited to see if it will help with this mk262mod1 load I've unintentionally made up but what I'm really curious about is there anything specific to casting anneling can help with ? I'm thinking there may be some kind of a benefit with a softer neck in regards to the boolits freeing easier but who knows. And not to mention it might be a week or more till some new camera equipment comes in and I can go to the range to document hence why I'm asking. Soooooo....is there anything specific to cast anneling helps with ?

[Dusty Bannister]

Reduced neck tension may prevent the soft cast bullets from being reduced in diameter after loading.

[nhyrum]

I don't know about specific to cast but get some 750 F tempilaq. It's important that you get the brass the correct temperature

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[upnorthwis]

My only reason for annealing is to prevent split necks. And my pliers held brass being turned by hand in low light with a propane torch is certainly not consistent enough to think I'm going to reduce SD.

[Wolfdog91]

I don't know about specific to cast but get some 750 F tempilaq. It's important that you get the brass the correct temperature

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Yeaaah I tried doing the "glow method"last night but just don't pan out the way I'd prefer. Tempilaq is what I'm looking at but the temperature is something that seem debatable. Some are saying 650 others are saying 700 and then again others are saying 750. Honestly I'm thinking Ill just go the 650 route . See alot of guys doing that and it working well. Gives me some wiggle room too

[Walter Laich]

I anneal to reduce split necks. when I start getting over 5% splits I run the batch through the annealer.

need to realize I shoot the brass till it fails but shooting low velocity cowboy loads doesn't have the dangers high power loads would.

[nhyrum]

https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/proper-annealing-temp.3972562/

This thread cites an article about temp. Vs time. The hotter the brass gets, the faster it will anneal. They say at 600, it will take an hour, and at 750, just a few seconds. And the way a torch heats, you can't really hold the neck at the correct temp long enough.

Something I learned about the tempilaq, is it doesn't line flame. I paint a bit on the inside of 5 necks, set a metronome, and time the 5 cases to melt the tempilaq, so that makes it so I can get consistent results without having to paint every case

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[dverna]

IMO you are going down a rabbit hole if you are looking for a significant improvement in accuracy by annealing cases. I can get to the MOA level without annealing. Maybe annealing would get me another 1/4 MOA...but I do not care.

Also the bulk of CF I shoot are .223 and .308 cases. If I shot thousands of rounds of .308, there might be an economic driver but .223 cases are not worth the effort.

With 1.5” groups at 50 yards, there are other issues to address.

[Winger Ed.]

...is there anything specific to cast anneling helps with ?

Reducing the neck splitting to extend the life of the brass is pretty much about it.

Compared against the friction of a bullet going down the barrel--
The differences in neck tension when the powder ignites doesn't really matter enough for most people to measure in their group sizes.


Another thing that happens after multiple reloadings is the brass will sort of flow up and make the wall thickness of the neck increase.
If a new bullet won't drop into a fired case-- it may be getting to the point
where ya need to toss it, or check into turning down the thickness of the case in the neck area.

Also, it may be getting a thin/weak spot at the base and be getting ready to separate there.

As cheap as 5.56 brass is, I'd be about ready to toss it after 5-6 reloadings and just figure it had a long, happy life.
I'd go the distance with some weird, hard to get/expensive brass--- but not 5.56.

[sigep1764]

Im in line with some of what the guys above say. I am different in a few areas. I anneal all my rifle calibers to increase case life. And cases last a lot longer at the lower pressures that cast is shot with. I find that my necks are easier to expand, stick significantly less to the expander plug, reduces the chances of swaging down boolits, and increases consistency. Every few firings, it gets annealed. If I can stretch my dollars spent on brass with a $5 bottle of propane I'm happy. Even 223.

[Wolfdog91]

IMO you are going down a rabbit hole if you are looking for a significant improvement in accuracy by annealing cases. I can get to the MOA level without annealing. Maybe annealing would get me another 1/4 MOA...but I do not care.

Also the bulk of CF I shoot are .223 and .308 cases. If I shot thousands of rounds of .308, there might be an economic driver but .223 cases are not worth the effort.

With 1.5” groups at 50 yards, there are other issues to address.

Well I'm not really looking at it for any major accuracy improvement. Accuracy improvement yes major no. How ever I'm trying to squeeze every bit I can put of this little venture of mine. Gotta make it a fun and well rounded rabbit hole right lol ? And I gotta ask what are these other issues,I'm all ears because I already have a little list going of things to tweak and fiddle with , but hay I was getting told I probably wouldn't get 1.5 @50 with my little 16" 1/7 AR the way it's doing so I'm tickled pink regardless lol[smilie=w:

[Winger Ed.]

but hay I was getting told I probably wouldn't get 1.5 @50 with my little 16" 1/7 AR the way it's doing so I'm tickled pink regardless lol[smilie=w:

Don't discount the accuracy of short barrels.
Most issues with open sights and barrel length is from how close or far apart the sights are.
You're naturally more accurate the farther apart the sights are.

Barrel length has more to do with the proper combustion of the powder as it relates to pressure and bullet speed.
There used to be an exhibition shooter that consistently popped balloons at 100 yards
with a 'out of the box' 2" Ruger GP 100 in .357/.38Spec.

[georgerkahn]

Wolfdog91, I have long been an "annealer". Imho -- perhaps mine alone? -- annealing has little or any effect upon accuracy, 'cept :( -- if the brass is ruined. Brass is a funny duck, as they say, as the more it is worked, the harder and more brittle it becomes. Applying sufficient heat to the caseneck to change its structure back to its initial springy state is what annealing is all about.
I have tried/used just about every method voiced on this and other sites except for the one where cases are stood in a water-filled cookie pan, necks heated, and then knocked over. I have a Giraud dedicated machine; two of the Hornady set-ups similar to what you are doing with the socket; a designed for annealing Bernzomatic head purveyed by The WoodChuck's Den specially made for annealing; and, a few others.
TWO big warnings include the "go or no-go!": To wit, if you heat the brass neck sufficiently to change its structure back to approximate original, then your mission is accomplished -- a GO!. However, too much heat for too long, and your brass is ruined. My classic check is to use no other tool than a pair of vice-grip pliers. Before annealing, snug up the pliers jaws to a case neck outside diameter, and then turn the pliers adjusting screw in a couple to three turns. On NEW brass, when you now close the pliers the case will be a teeny-weenie bit oblonged, but WILL spring back to round when the pliers are opened. If this does not occur on your wanna-be-annealed brass -- oops! -- it is now too soft to sufficiently hold your loaded bullet. (A buddy did this, and tried using a super-roll-crimp to counter it. In three words: "It didn't work!")
The 2nd "warning" is re getting the base of your cases inadvertently softened. This creates a danger to both you and your firearm!
Space/time does not permit explanations of which BOOKS have been written. My suggestion is to Google reputable sites/sources. It is not rocket science, but I believe annealing really requires a base knowledge to be of success! A good read with some valid info may be had at https://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
Good luck!
geo

[oley55]

... because I already have a little list going of things to tweak and fiddle with...

For what it's worth, TRY to only tweak ONE thing at a time. Easier said than done for me as I am constantly succumbing to the urge to change more than one thing at a time. I can't say how many times I have done it and then swear I won't do it again, but then do it anyhow.

I do salt-bath anneal my 308win and 357/44mag brass, but have no data saying it slows neck splitting, helps accuracy or does anything at all. Since I remain mostly new to casting, I do wonder if annealed brass is less likely to swage down cast boolit bases.

[blackthorn]

sigep1764 said "Im in line with some of what the guys above say. I am different in a few areas. I anneal all my rifle calibers to increase case life. And cases last a lot longer at the lower pressures that cast is shot with. I find that my necks are easier to expand, stick significantly less to the expander plug, reduces the chances of swaging down boolits, and increases consistency. Every few firings, it gets annealed. If I can stretch my dollars spent on brass with a $5 bottle of propane I'm happy. Even 223."

This are some of the real reasons people anneal. That said, see below:

georgerkahn said; "Wolfdog91, I have long been an "annealer". Imho -- perhaps mine alone? -- annealing has little or any effect upon accuracy, 'cept -- if the brass is ruined. Brass is a funny duck, as they say, as the more it is worked, the harder and more brittle it becomes. Applying sufficient heat to the caseneck to change its structure back to its initial springy state is what annealing is all about.
I have tried/used just about every method voiced on this and other sites except for the one where cases are stood in a water-filled cookie pan, necks heated, and then knocked over. I have a Giraud dedicated machine; two of the Hornady set-ups similar to what you are doing with the socket; a designed for annealing Bernzomatic head purveyed by The WoodChuck's Den specially made for annealing; and, a few others.
TWO big warnings include the "go or no-go!": To wit, if you heat the brass neck sufficiently to change its structure back to approximate original, then your mission is accomplished -- a GO!. However, too much heat for too long, and your brass is ruined. My classic check is to use no other tool than a pair of vice-grip pliers. Before annealing, snug up the pliers jaws to a case neck outside diameter, and then turn the pliers adjusting screw in a couple to three turns. On NEW brass, when you now close the pliers the case will be a teeny-weenie bit oblonged, but WILL spring back to round when the pliers are opened. If this does not occur on your wanna-be-annealed brass -- oops! -- it is now too soft to sufficiently hold your loaded bullet. (A buddy did this, and tried using a super-roll-crimp to counter it. In three words: "It didn't work!")
The 2nd "warning" is re getting the base of your cases inadvertently softened. This creates a danger to both you and your firearm!
Space/time does not permit explanations of which BOOKS have been written. My suggestion is to Google reputable sites/sources. It is not rocket science, but I believe annealing really requires a base knowledge to be of success! A good read with some valid info may be had at https://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
Good luck!
geo"

You would be well advised to read georgerkahn"s post several times and understand what it postulates. In my opinion, what we really need to do is "temper" rather than "anneal" our brass cases. This will likely require some careful experimentation using some scrap/sacrificial cases to see just how much heat, for how long is needed to leave the annealed case with at least some "spring-back". Good luck in your ongoing journey!

[lightman]

I use an annealing machine because I didn't feel like my results with a socket and touch were worth the required efforts. I'll second the recommendation of the Timplac. I also recommend saving several pieces of junk brass to practice with before messing up your good brass.

Years ago it was popular to anneal brass in a lead pot. I'm not sure why the practice was discontinued as it seemed to work well. Basically you melted and fluxed lead in your casting pot and dipped the neck and shoulder in it for a short period of time. I dipped the case neck in a light machine oil, dipped it into the molten lead and counted one thousand one, one thousand two, ect until I was happy with it. I want to say most cases were 6 to 8 seconds. The light oil smoked some but seemed to keep the lead from sticking to the brass. Some reloaders held the base of the case by hand until it became uncomfortable but the counting seemed to be more consistent for me.

[Castaway]

This is so much more complicated than I could have ever imagined. Is the goal to perfectly anneal the brass? What defines the desired degree of annealing? When the brass is annealed perfectly, what happens then? What about different brands of brass with different ratios of copper and zinc? How would I ever find out what temperature to heat it to for how long? Does perfectly annealed brass behave differently at different pressure levels? If I roll crimp, does the annealing have any measurable effect if I’m launching a bullet at Ruger levels? If I use 650 or 750 Tempilaq, what do I have to set my metronome to? What’s the heat index for 5.56 brass vs 468 Win brass. Will Weatherby brass anneal faster? I guess that’s what makes this hobby interesting, but I’ll continue with my drill, bolt, and dim lights.

[Petander]

I have tried/used just about every method voiced on this and other sites except for the one where cases are stood in a water-filled cookie pan, necks heated, and then knocked over.

Wouldn't that be tempering rather than annealing? Cooling hot metal quickly in cold water? Completely different than dipping in the casting pot,for example.

I played around with this and some other techniques years ago but never got any consistency. I had no real need either, just curious.

But now that I'm looking at this 470 NE brass,the price, while neck sizing old brass... I feel I may have a need coming.

Following this with interest,thank you gentlemen.

[Winger Ed.]

If I roll crimp, does the annealing have any measurable effect.

'Working' the brass is what hardens it and makes it brittle, and want to split.
In the reloading process- you size (shrink) it, then bell out (expand) the mouth, then 'un-bell' (shrink/bend) it again,
all this is 'working' the brass.
Add in the additional step of a roll crimp and you have worked it even more.
Like bending anything over and over-- after so many times, it will crack.
Annealing helps slow this process down, and let you bend it more times than if you don't.

The most valuable cases I've ever roll crimped is .357Mag, and I don't anneal.
I never counted, but I think they do split WAY before a straight wall case like .45ACP with a taper crimp does.

[nhyrum]

Wouldn't that be tempering rather than annealing? Cooling hot metal quickly in cold water? Completely different than dipping in the casting pot,for example.

I played around with this and some other techniques years ago but never got any consistency. I had no real need either, just curious.

But now that I'm looking at this 470 NE brass,the price, while neck sizing old brass... I feel I may have a need coming.

Following this with interest,thank you gentlemen.I think the main goal of this method is to keep the base of the brass cool, but it's poorly executed, because if that's the case, you'll need water up to the bottom of the shoulder... Try doing that with a 300 rum or 50 bmg. You'll need a pretty deep pan.

Knocking them over is more a quenching technique(think water dropping cast bullets) and like dead soft lead doesn't quench, I'm not sure brass does. But, if it does, you'll have to have the water above the brass as well, because if only half the brass is under water... Well now what did you do? You annealed half and quenched half. Doesn't sound good for consistency.

In regards to annealing not producing better accuracy, it's one of those things, like the British cycling coach Dave Brailsford, really pioneered the idea of having 1% gains over all the skills that go into riding a bike. All those 1% gains add up. So yes, annealing won't make a night and day difference.

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[Castaway]

Winger Ed, my tongue in cheek post was what is the affect of annealing on the release of the bullet. No one questions annealing the brass softens hardened brass caused by repeated bending.

[Castaway]

For what it’s worth, years ago I did a shoot to destruction test. I took 50 pieces of New Win brass in 45 Colt. First two loads were Ruger pressure, the rest mild but still roll crimped. I had 25 pieces left after 50 loadings

[Wolfdog91]

These guys make alot of sense


https://youtu.be/0LrvUUC_98U


https://youtu.be/2yOtCQsfJhU


https://youtu.be/k1QZfqZRn2Q

[RogerDat]

I use a deep cake pan on a cake decorating stand. Stand top turns by hand, pan has water deep enough to cover bullet on its side. I know the head won't be overheated being in water. I watch the neck to see it start to glow. See it glow all the way around and then knock it over and set the next case in the water.

I figure I may not get perfect annealing on every case but I probably am doing sufficient annealing to improve brass life. I have only done this with necked brass, not straight walled cases but... if components keep being this difficult to get I may reconsider that and do straight walled every few reloadings.

I think if one wants neck consistency to improve accuracy one might do better looking into an NOE case expander button or Lyman M die. I find with the NOE buttons that I use I can feel how seating the bullet takes a more consistent force and feels consistent case after case. Plus I can get them in a size that is appropriate for lead bullet so the neck isn't tight enough to squeeze the bullet down on seating. Many dies are going to size that neck for jacketed round which can take our lead and make it undersized.

Of course the extra working of brass from using a sizing die then flaring and neck sizing would be more working of the brass which makes annealing more necessary.

[Winger Ed.]

Winger Ed, my tongue in cheek post was what is the affect of annealing on the release of the bullet. No one questions annealing the brass softens hardened brass caused by repeated bending.

Oh.
I'd think properly annealed brass, and roll crimped would put ya closer to the exact loading book recipes results based on pressure
than hardened brass . But I sort of doubt it would really be a measurable difference in group sizes.

[charlie b]

40 years of reloading and I have never annealed my cases. I have had some split the neck, after 20 or more reloads (jacketed high pressure loads). Keep in mind, I do not shoot 1000s of rounds a month, more like one or two thousand a year, and mostly rifle.

The cases I have had trouble with are most .223/5.56 cases. I tend to shoot heavier bullets at close to max vel. Most brands (including Lake City) I only get 4 or 5 reloads out of them before the primer pockets expand too far to hold a primer. Their necks are still fine. I choose to use Lapua brass for the .223 and am over 20 reloads on them, and still 1/2MOA.

[blackthorn]

Petander said: "Wouldn't that be tempering rather than annealing? Cooling hot metal quickly in cold water? Completely different than dipping in the casting pot,for example."

There are two reasons for dumping the annealed case into water: It stops the process immediately, protecting the lower portion of the case from becoming annealed (which can be bad juju!). The second reason is so you do not inadvertently burn your tender fingers. Dropping the cases into water has absolutely NO effect on the soft/hard condition of the brass metal!

[Red River Rick]

Petander said: "Wouldn't that be tempering rather than annealing? Cooling hot metal quickly in cold water? Completely different than dipping in the casting pot,for example."

.............................. Dropping the cases into water has absolutely NO effect on the soft/hard condition of the brass metal!

Absolutely true, I concur.

Rick

[Old Caster]

When I was competing in F class championships in Missouri, I used a socket the length that would cover the base and all the way up to just below the beginning of the shoulder on the .308 Lapua cases. I used Lapua cases because the neck thickness was so universal. I would heat them with propane while the drill was spinning the socket and case until the upper part turned a different color which can be seen in the pictures Wolfdog posted and mine looked like the ones on the left. As soon as the case got that different color I dumped them out of the socket into water and went to the next. They are not even close to red even in dim light. A lot of the rest of the guys shooting this competition had devices that had a torch pointed at the neck and the device turned and spun the cartridges set to a certain time. I think these machines were quite expensive and I was happy without one and how I was shooting and won the competition in 2010. I can guarantee that this made the ammo more accurate but we were shooting at 600 yards off a bipod and the groups were as small as 4 inches if there was no wind. Was using Varget with a 155 grain Berger bullet and a Kimber tactical rifle. I am pretty sure the cases would last longer with annealing but unless the cases are special and or you want the absolute best accuracy I don't think it is worth it and I no longer anneal any cases. When they split, I just toss them.

[oley55]

Wouldn't that be tempering rather than annealing? Cooling hot metal quickly in cold water? Completely different than dipping in the casting pot,for example.

I played around with this and some other techniques years ago but never got any consistency. I had no real need either, just curious.

But now that I'm looking at this 470 NE brass,the price, while neck sizing old brass... I feel I may have a need coming.

Following this with interest,thank you gentlemen.

I may be mistaken, but I do not think brass/copper can EVER be tempered via quenching. The only way to temper or harden brass/copper is via work hardening. Heating then quenching in water is a mostly ferrous metal thing.

The "set in a pan of water" is all about keeping the heat from migrating to and softening the case body. Just like salt-bath annealing we drop the hot cases into water to prevent heat migration and of course wash away any salt residue.

[jsizemore]

If your LC brass is like mine it's not all the same head stamp and no telling how many times it's been shot in what gun. When you size it, it's all over the place as far as pressure on the press handle. Some is neck but also case body. We hope the case head hasn't been stretched too far. That annealing the case neck shoulder gets that stuff evened out more better than just sizing without the annealing. Since your shooting in the AR platform that takes away one variable from making it work better. You still have case necks of varying thickness so there's still that to contend with. You've probably seen the AMP system on utube. Though it claims to be perfect, it ain't. One fella tested brass from the same lot and got 2 different dwell times for brass heating time. One friend has a loose leaf catalog of different cartridge calibers and lot numbers with average heating dwell times for each. When you shoot for groups at a 1000 and beyond, you got to do whatever it takes.

At least with annealing once you've evened up your mixed brass in that aspect. Then you'll find the case capacities are different sizes from the different lots. Set those to the side that don't shoot to group and see how much difference that makes. Good Luck.

[Petander]

Gents,thank you for educating me. Some more here:

https://i.postimg.cc/qRGP4CfC/IMG-20211106-WA0002.jpg

https://www.highettmetal.com.au/blog/brass/how-to-temper-brass


This is a good read for us non-metallurgists:

https://i.postimg.cc/9Q0VFb1t/IMG-20211106-222439-348.jpg


https://www.twi-global.com/technical-knowledge/faqs/annealing-vs-tempering

[blackthorn]

For our purposes, perhaps the term "tempering" is not the one we should use. Rather, perhaps we should refer to what we wish to accomplish as "partial" or "incomplete" annealing. The process referred to above would/will result in a totally (structurally) annealed case, including the base, which we certainly do not want. The list:
The common reasons for heat treatments include:
Increased ductility
Improved elasticity
Improved formability
Increased hardness
Improved machining
Increased strength
Improved toughness

contains what we require and a few we do not. Since the main goal should be trying to wind up with better tension on the bullet (once seated), if we successfully, completely anneal just the case-neck it will be too soft and will require working the case (expanding/reducing) through the die to return it to a condition that will provide the optimum grip on our cast bullet.

Take a piece of new brass and squeeze the neck between your fingers. As you release the pressure you will see the brass spring back to its original unfired shape. Now, do the same with a fully annealed case-neck and you will see that the brass remains oval, indicating it has been over-annealed (for our purposes). I have had good results by using molten lead, after I experimented with both lead temperatures and the condition of the brass, combined with "soak" time in the lead, followed by dropping the case into cold water to halt the annealing process. YMMV.

[dverna]

When I was competing in F class championships in Missouri, I used a socket the length that would cover the base and all the way up to just below the beginning of the shoulder on the .308 Lapua cases. I used Lapua cases because the neck thickness was so universal. I would heat them with propane while the drill was spinning the socket and case until the upper part turned a different color which can be seen in the pictures Wolfdog posted and mine looked like the ones on the left. As soon as the case got that different color I dumped them out of the socket into water and went to the next. They are not even close to red even in dim light. A lot of the rest of the guys shooting this competition had devices that had a torch pointed at the neck and the device turned and spun the cartridges set to a certain time. I think these machines were quite expensive and I was happy without one and how I was shooting and won the competition in 2010. I can guarantee that this made the ammo more accurate but we were shooting at 600 yards off a bipod and the groups were as small as 4 inches if there was no wind. Was using Varget with a 155 grain Berger bullet and a Kimber tactical rifle. I am pretty sure the cases would last longer with annealing but unless the cases are special and or you want the absolute best accuracy I don't think it is worth it and I no longer anneal any cases. When they split, I just toss them.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Your advice is sound and confirms my thoughts that are based on far less rifle shooting than you have done. I settled on .223 and .308 as my main calibers in part because cases were easy to find and not expensive. I did not want to add annealing to my "chores".