Two Novel Loadings for .45 ACP Revolver

[Oyeboten]

Had the inspiration the other day to load some .45 ACP with lighter than usual Bullets, for fun with my S & W and Colt M1917 Revolvers.

Left is a 141 Grain .454 Ball, ran through a Sizing Die to be .452 with a resulting nice little flat Belly-Band to crimp to ( with no convenient way to Lube, other than I will Lube the lower portion of the exposed part ).

Right is a 165 Grain DEWC -

Charge of Propellant is 7 Grains of 'Unique' for both.

In reviewing various Loading Tables, this seemed to me to be a sensible charge to deliver around or a little over 1000 FPS with these Lighter than usual Bullets, which I felt ought to be no more pressure than Standard Loading with usual 230 Grain Hardball.

Does my reasoning sound alright?

I'll put a new Battery in the long neglected Chronograph, and see what they do soon, and report back with their FPS.

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[ryanmattes]

Polycoat tat round ball, that's all the lube you need.

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[Mytmousemalibu]

I did something similar with. 380acp some time ago to make a fun little "mouse fart" load or gallery load if you will.i used some 00 buckshot I cast and a sprinkle of fast burning powder. I think it was some like 1.0gr of Titewad. It might have beed Vectan A0 or 800X too. It worked, made a fun little plinker load. I tried a bare ball with 45-45-10 lube and some PC'ed with HF red. I did try sizing them and as you discoverd makes a little ring to seat to but i had better accuracy without sizing the buckshot.

[35remington]

Generally speaking, the faster you shoot a roundball the more poorly they shoot. Given the possible uses of such loadings I’d use less of a different powder, such as Bullseye.

Point of impact will be annoyingly low in fixed sighted revolvers. Velocity will not make them hit to the sights whether the velocity be raised or lowered.

[Sasquatch-1]

One things for sure, with the first round there will be NO keyholing.[smilie=1:

[Oyeboten]

I did something similar with. 380acp some time ago to make a fun little "mouse fart" load or gallery load if you will.i used some 00 buckshot I cast and a sprinkle of fast burning powder. I think it was some like 1.0gr of Titewad. It might have beed Vectan A0 or 800X too. It worked, made a fun little plinker load. I tried a bare ball with 45-45-10 lube and some PC'ed with HF red. I did try sizing them and as you discoverd makes a little ring to seat to but i had better accuracy without sizing the buckshot.

Did they feed okay?

I'll try my Round Ball ones in my Colt Government Model, see if they will feed!

I used to load .38 Special with two Balls, 360 ish ones, sized down a little and a good Crimp on the end one, but I worried about the inner one creeping down so I only did this with Black Powder and good compression.

They worked very well and were quite accurate, leaving one neat Hole in Paper Targets...the two Balls did not drift apart at any Range or distance I tried them at.

Did the same with .45 Colt also, same result, one Hole, no matter the distance...and, quite accurate! Black Powder...

Of course, two 141 Grain, .454 Lead Balls, is a little "heavy" for .45 Colt, but over Black Powder and a less than full charge for their taking up more room than a usual Bullet would, I did not think it would matter.

[Oyeboten]

Generally speaking, the faster you shoot a roundball the more poorly they shoot. Given the possible uses of such loadings I’d use less of a different powder, such as Bullseye.

Point of impact will be annoyingly low in fixed sighted revolvers. Velocity will not make them hit to the sights whether the velocity be raised or lowered.

I'll see!

I want about 1050 FPS for the Balls ( and about 1000 for the little DEWC ), so, I'll see how they do, and how they are for accuracy at 10 and 25 Yards.

Of course, 'Cap & Ball' Revolvers can be very accurate with Ball, but their Rifling is made for that, while the Rifling in my S & W and Colt M1917s, was made for "Full Metal Patch", and is a lot shallower.

[Oyeboten]

One things for sure, with the first round there will be NO keyholing.[smilie=1:

I had not thought about that before!

You are quite right!!

[ShooterAZ]

Thinned LLA works really well with those round ball loads, just a light coat is all you need. You want to be sure to let it completely dry first. Bullseye powder "might" be better suited to these type of gallery loads, I have had great accuracy at short ranges with RB loads in 45AR cases. I'm not pushing them to 1000fps though. My loads are 700-750fps +/- and will give respectable groups even out to 25 yards. They are a lot of fun for sure.

[Texas by God]

I've killed squirrels with a 1917 S&W and round ball loads. I used LLA and Bulleye and they shot quite well at close range. They would not function my 1927 Argentine. 45 auto.

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[OBXPilgrim]

Definitely something else I need to try.

[rockrat]

I used to shoot RB's out of a Star "P" with good results and functioned well. I also used a lighter load in a 45acp Ruger Blackhawk using bullseye

[oldsalt444]

I've used that 165 gr. wadcutter. It's from Matt's Bullets. It is not a DEWC. Since it has a crimp groove, it should be loaded as you have it pictured. However, I absolutely love that bullet in my S&W 25. In fact I had a custom mold made to copy it. I use it for bullseye competition. Wonderfully accurate at 25 yards over 3.5 gr WST or 3.2 Red Dot. Have Matt's size them to .454 for better accuracy. Throats tend to run a bit larger than the bore, especially in earlier S&W revolvers.

[Oyeboten]

I used to shoot RB's out of a Star "P" with good results and functioned well. I also used a lighter load in a 45acp Ruger Blackhawk using bullseye

Oh my!


What vintage is or was your 'Star' Model P?

I have long wanted one, never have found one in good enough shape.

I have a 'Star' Model M which is a joy...and I load for it!

[Oyeboten]

I've used that 165 gr. wadcutter. It's from Matt's Bullets. It is not a DEWC. Since it has a crimp groove, it should be loaded as you have it pictured. However, I absolutely love that bullet in my S&W 25. In fact I had a custom mold made to copy it. I use it for bullseye competition. Wonderfully accurate at 25 yards over 3.5 gr WST or 3.2 Red Dot. Have Matt's size them to .454 for better accuracy. Throats tend to run a bit larger than the bore, especially in earlier S&W revolvers.

What fun!

I do not even remember getting the little Box of these 165 Grain Wadcutters, I've had them quite a few years...but, you are right, they are not 'DEWC' since they have the Crimp Groove.

Having Matt size them to .454 would be very nice, good idea!

I am intending to soon Load for my "converted" 2nd Model HE, S & W .455 Webley originally, then 'converted' to .45 ACP / .45 Auto-Rim, and it will want .454 or even .455 if possible, and I do have Molds for a few .455 "Heavies", but no Molds for any small light ones.

Matts Bullets is sure a nice place for getting Hand Gun Bullets one does not have a Mold for..!

[Nazgul]

I load 45 Colt for my single action with a small charge of AA #5, a cardboard wad, rice, another wad sealed with glue. Use them for wood bees in the spring. It is a hoot to nail them in flight. Works to about 4 feet.

Don

[cwlongshot]

What about the old (forgotten) Lyman mold numbers. 452389 and 454309???

CW

[Oyeboten]

What about the old (forgotten) Lyman mold numbers. 452389 and 454309???

CW

Yes! - 454 309 I do have! And I have a few Hundred of them Cast from early last Summer's Casting times.

I also have the 452 389 Mold! But I have not cast any from it yet.

I have a nice .456 Mold for the early 'Himmelwright' Spire Nose Wadcutter, which I assume was meant for the Webley Target Revolvers, or, for .45 Colt Target Revolvers in .455, or, for the S & W 'New Century' or 2nd Model Hand Ejector Target Models when in .455 Webley ( but sadly I do not have any .45 Target Revolvers of any kind - though I do hope to have one eventually! )

But, these are "Heavies" though, ( or relatively so ) and I will Load them also, sometime soon..!



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[Oyeboten]

This Week though, I am all about "What can I do with .45 ACP "Light Bullet" Loadings.

Next week, I'll be "What can I do with .45 ACP expanded to accept .455 anything, for 'converted' S & W 2nd Model HE which was originally in .455 Webley, but got 'converted' to .45 ACP / Auto-Rim", so as to at least have right fitting Bullets / Boolits.

[Walks]

Back in the early 1990's some Cowboy Shooters experimented with a very deep seated 185-200gr bullet in the .45Colt. They seated the bullet so that the nose was almost below the case mouth and used a very small powder charge. This was long before the .S&W Schofield and shorter cases were introduced. Thankfully back in those days the wild bunch still believed in "Spirit of the Game" and the practice was declared illegal.
The #452389 or #452488 cast of COWW & fully seated in the Schofield case makes a nice easy load over a light charge of Titegroup. In a ACP or AR case it can be made even lighter. And with an appropriate spring, in a 1911 will still function in the ACP case.

[Martin Luber]

I have that WC mould, from H&G. Lighter boolets in 45 ACP ( under 185) need faster powders like Bullseye, Red Dot, 700X. I agree not to run RB that fast 1000 fps but you could tumble lube and work up until they lead. The wc can do it, reference load data, you can be north of 4 BE.

[Oyeboten]

I have that WC mould, from H&G. Lighter boolets in 45 ACP ( under 185) need faster powders like Bullseye, Red Dot, 700X. I agree not to run RB that fast 1000 fps but you could tumble lube and work up until they lead. The wc can do it, reference load data, you can be north of 4 BE.

Oh! Thanks!

Yes, now that you mention it, I think I used to know that - 'Unique' is not the best choice for light Bullets...( and these will likely burn dirty, Lol...)

I do have "Red Dot" though - a nice un-opened Jug of it.

What does "North of 4 BE" mean?

No idea where I can reference Load Data for these two Bullets - if you know of a place, let me know?

[jonp]

Thinned LLA works really well with those round ball loads, just a light coat is all you need. You want to be sure to let it completely dry first. Bullseye powder "might" be better suited to these type of gallery loads, I have had great accuracy at short ranges with RB loads in 45AR cases. I'm not pushing them to 1000fps though. My loads are 700-750fps +/- and will give respectable groups even out to 25 yards. They are a lot of fun for sure.

How thin?

[Oyeboten]

How thin?

I myself, I have no idea, I do not know what it is to begin with!

The only lube I have ever used is Bees Wax with my Black Powder Metallic Cartridge and Cap & Ball Revolvers.

But I now do need to figure out a Lube for the Smokeless Loads I am going to be doing for .45 ACP, so...hmmm...

I have not used my Lubrisizer with "Lube" yet, so I need to figure out a way to warm it up so I can Lube as I size...and figure out what Lube to use, or just use my Bees Wax.

The little Wadcutters I got from 'Matts Bullets' came pre lubed, so, they have what-ever it is that is on them.

[Sasquatch-1]

I myself, I have no idea, I do not know what it is to begin with!

The only lube I have ever used is Bees Wax with my Black Powder Metallic Cartridge and Cap & Ball Revolvers.

But I now do need to figure out a Lube for the Smokeless Loads I am going to be doing for .45 ACP, so...hmmm...

I have not used my Lubrisizer with "Lube" yet, so I need to figure out a way to warm it up so I can Lube as I size...and figure out what Lube to use, or just use my Bees Wax.

The little Wadcutters I got from 'Matts Bullets' came pre lubed, so, they have what-ever it is that is on them.

LLA= Lee Liquid Alox. There is a company that sells what is suppose to be the same thing (I have never used it) but call it Xlox.
Here's the link:

https://lsstuff.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4&products_id=11&zenid=464jn5jjdie0hsl5hgl7hl09i6

Also, depending on which stick lube you choose you may not have to heat the Lubri-Sizer unless you are sizing in a cold shed.

[Oyeboten]

LLA= Lee Liquid Alox. There is a company that sells what is suppose to be the same thing (I have never used it) but call it Xlox.
Here's the link:

https://lsstuff.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4&products_id=11&zenid=464jn5jjdie0hsl5hgl7hl09i6

Also, depending on which stick lube you choose you may not have to heat the Lubri-Sizer unless you are sizing in a cold shed.

Thanks Sasquatch!

[Mytmousemalibu]

Did they feed okay?

I'll try my Round Ball ones in my Colt Government Model, see if they will feed!

I used to load .38 Special with two Balls, 360 ish ones, sized down a little and a good Crimp on the end one, but I worried about the inner one creeping down so I only did this with Black Powder and good compression.

They worked very well and were quite accurate, leaving one neat Hole in Paper Targets...the two Balls did not drift apart at any Range or distance I tried them at.

Did the same with .45 Colt also, same result, one Hole, no matter the distance...and, quite accurate! Black Powder...

Of course, two 141 Grain, .454 Lead Balls, is a little "heavy" for .45 Colt, but over Black Powder and a less than full charge for their taking up more room than a usual Bullet would, I did not think it would matter.

Im my case, yes and no! This experiment took place quite a while ago, probably 8yrs ago now so my recollection is a little aged too! I did it in .380acp for my little M&P Bodyguard, a tiny little thing. It is a typical Browning style locked breech but had a heavy spring/DAO hammer to overcome. I was able to up the charge to get it to cycle and i recall it feeding okay but as mentioned in this thread, the accuracy went to poop. I don't think I loaded more than 10rds hot enough to cycle it. Back when I could slap a few test loads together, step out the back porch and fire them, pick up the brass and load it again in 10min and try another. With a mouse fart charge of powder, it wouldn't cycle but accuracy was way better. Ideally I wanted it to cycle for more realistic practice but it was fun as a single shot plinker. Hard little gun to shoot accurately!

This gun preferred unsized roundballs and preferred PC'd vs. lubed. For lubing these, kinda tricky with a ball. One could just coat the whole ball but I just painted some 45-45-10 liquid lube on the ball with a Q-tip around the case mouth before light crimping. A little lube could get in between the brass & ball that way.

[Oyeboten]

Im my case, yes and no! This experiment took place quite a while ago, probably 8yrs ago now so my recollection is a little aged too! I did it in .380acp for my little M&P Bodyguard, a tiny little thing. It is a typical Browning style locked breech but had a heavy spring/DAO hammer to overcome. I was able to up the charge to get it to cycle and i recall it feeding okay but as mentioned in this thread, the accuracy went to poop. I don't think I loaded more than 10rds hot enough to cycle it. Back when I could slap a few test loads together, step out the back porch and fire them, pick up the brass and load it again in 10min and try another. With a mouse fart charge of powder, it wouldn't cycle but accuracy was way better. Ideally I wanted it to cycle for more realistic practice but it was fun as a single shot plinker. Hard little gun to shoot accurately!

This gun preferred unsized roundballs and preferred PC'd vs. lubed. For lubing these, kinda tricky with a ball. One could just coat the whole ball but I just painted some 45-45-10 liquid lube on the ball with a Q-tip around the case mouth before light crimping. A little lube could get in between the brass & ball that way.

I think I'll just dip the Ball ends in molten Bees Wax...then wipe off the upper part, and, see how that does.

[rockrat]

Oyeboten, my model "P" was bought used in late 1974

[Mytmousemalibu]

I think I'll just dip the Ball ends in molten Bees Wax...then wipe off the upper part, and, see how that does.

I can't imagine that not working just fine. At the velocities these tend to like, beeswax should be excellent, its pretty good for a lot of cast boolit use. I probably would have used beeswax too but I recall the 45-45-10 being all i had at the time.

All this reminiscing has me wanting to play with RB loads again! These would be a treat in .38 Special for the revolvers! Still have some RB's left over. I have a handful of. 38 Short Colt brass that this would be great for too.

[Oyeboten]

I can't imagine that not working just fine. At the velocities these tend to like, beeswax should be excellent, its pretty good for a lot of cast boolit use. I probably would have used beeswax too but I recall the 45-45-10 being all i had at the time.

All this reminiscing has me wanting to play with RB loads again! These would be a treat in .38 Special for the revolvers! Still have some RB's left over. I have a handful of. 38 Short Colt brass that this would be great for too.


Of course, when I buy Bullets from "Matts" they come pre-lubed, so, that settles that ( for Smokeless ).

Otherwise with Black Powder Cartridges, I cast my own, and everyone gets a Bees Wax Wafer between Power and Boolit, and this works splendidly.

If I wish to use Matt's Bullets for Black Powder, I just boil off the Lube they came with, and then use my Bees Wax Disc or Wafer.

I have not done it in a while, but double Ball in .38 Special or .45 Colt worked splendidly for me over well compressed 3 F Swiss Powder, always left one neat Hole in the Target, no matter the distance.

I have not tried Double Ball with Smokeless because I would worry about the deeper Ball creeping down and maybe making problems with Loading density and occasioning an over-pressure, but, a Cartridge Case which has a good Cannelure located to prevent this, might be alright.

[Mytmousemalibu]

Of course, when I buy Bullets from "Matts" they come pre-lubed, so, that settles that ( for Smokeless ).

Otherwise with Black Powder Cartridges, I cast my own, and everyone gets a Bees Wax Wafer between Power and Boolit, and this works splendidly.

If I wish to use Matt's Bullets for Black Powder, I just boil off the Lube they came with, and then use my Bees Wax Disc or Wafer.

I have not done it in a while, but double Ball in .38 Special or .45 Colt worked splendidly for me over well compressed 3 F Swiss Powder, always left one neat Hole in the Target, no matter the distance.

I have not tried Double Ball with Smokeless because I would worry about the deeper Ball creeping down and maybe making problems with Loading density and occasioning an over-pressure, but, a Cartridge Case which has a good Cannelure located to prevent this, might be alright.

When it comes to cast boolits, I cast all my own with exception to the coated boolits I use for USPSA competition. A normal busy season with practice would mean 20,000 to 30,000 rounds for the year and I don't have that kind of time nor desire to cast that much! That has dropped way off since the plandemic. I average about 80-100rds a week now.

I enjoy casting and trying new things so keeping it lower volume retains the fun. Most of my lubed cast gets Ben's Red, that recipe works very good for me. I have some BP stuff in the works. Did a little with .45 Colt and 12ga in the past. Planning on BP .38 Special and perhaps the odd rifle cartridge. The one im most excited to get going is .41 Swiss for my M78 Vetterli. I still have some case forming hurdles to get sorted and i need to get a heeled style bullet mold. I want to replicate the original service load for it. Its fun doing small batch specialty stuff such as the RB stuff! I've not played with duplex loads yet but thats another on the list!

[Martin Luber]

Oh! Thanks!

Yes, now that you mention it, I think I used to know that - 'Unique' is not the best choice for light Bullets...( and these will likely burn dirty, Lol...)

I do have "Red Dot" though - a nice un-opened Jug of it.

What does "North of 4 BE" mean?

No idea where I can reference Load Data for these two Bullets - if you know of a place, let me know?

Sorry, BE is Bullseye, north being more than 4 grains. It's hard to find data for specific mould numbers. As long as you're not near maximum loads, data for equal boolet weights will work.

[Oyeboten]

Sorry, BE is Bullseye, north being more than 4 grains. It's hard to find data for specific mould numbers. As long as you're not near maximum loads, data for equal boolet weights will work.

I know of no Loading Data for either of these Bullets or for anything close to their weight...but, in looking over various Load Data for heavier ones, I went with 5.5 Grains 'Red Dot' for the little 165 Grain Wadcutters, but I did not load any further 141 Grain Round-Ball.

Does this sound alright to you?

[Oyeboten]

Oyeboten, my model "P" was bought used in late 1974

How nice!

Is it the 'straight' Grip? Like the m1911? Or, the later Grip shape having the raised Mainspring Housing like an M1911-A1?

[KMD]

Yes I am digging up bones....
I use this for my 45 cowboy specials and a well compressed load of FFF (~20grns) and I could shoot a 5 stage match and not worry about my guns fouling up they carry a pile of lube, the guns are greasy and dirty but still shooting and smoke flying. :Fire:
https://i.imgur.com/Pc6gaO1.gif
https://i.imgur.com/Z6ASUDx.jpg?1

I am not shooting cowboy anymore but still have plans for the molds. :bigsmyl2:
I just got a 1937 Brazilian contract S&W and I can't wait to try this bullet in it.

[rintinglen]

How thin?

Depends on how thick the LLA has become since it was bottled, but usually 1-10 to 1-5 parts mineral spirits to LLA will do what you want. It should be syrupy, not soupy. But a little excess is not too troublesome. It will simply lead to a longer drying time. For a quick and dirty method if you don't feel like messing with mixing a hole bottle up, try this instead.

Put the boolits, LLA and a few drops of mineral spirits into the tub and slosh them around for about a minute, put on a non-porous plate or sheet--I use an old cookie sheet my wife was going to toss-- and let dry. I often set them out in the sun to hasten the evaporation of the mineral spirits.