If you use a thermometer, which temp do you cast at/ a frosting question?

[Russel Nash]

Yeah, I just picked up a new Lyman thermometer the other day.

I am using an RCBS pro melt.

The temperature control knob is just about spot on with what the thermometer says once everything is brought up to temp.

These past few days have been my very first attempts at casting on my own.

I have the temp on the Pro Melt set for about 720-ish.

If I drop in one ingot, I can see the thermometer needle drop, but I keep right on casting.

If I drop in two ingots, the thermometer needle drops fast, and I think at one point it got down to around 600 degrees and the spout froze up.


So I am just curious, what temperature do you guys cast at (if you have a thermometer, that is)?

I have been dropping my bullets into a 20mm ammo can half filled with water.

It's kinda neat in that I have a rectangular shaped mesh basket.

I push the sprue plate over with my gloved thumb. Then tap it against the inside of the ammo can and the sprue drops into the water to the bottom of the tank.

Then I open the mould and the bullets drop into the mesh basket, partially under water.

If I have any stubborn bullets I just tap the mould handles' pivot against the top lip of the ammo can and they'll drop.

While waiting for the melt to get back up to temp one time, I decided to pull the basket to take a look at my new boolits.

I thought I kinda knew what frosting was....

Really taking a look at them under really good light, I think I know what frosting is now.

In a way it kind remins me of those shiney "flakes" you see on galvanized sheet metal.

These bullets are for 9, .40 and .45 pistols out to maybe 35 yards (IDPA, steel and USPSA competitions)

So is there something bad about frosted bullets that will hurt their performance once sized, lubed and then loaded?

Should I turn my Pro Melt's knob down some?

I am using the steel/iron Lyman 4 banger moulds by the way... if that makes a difference.

Thanks in advance.

PS: On the flipside, I do think I discovered what happens when the mould isn't hot enough and/or you have the spigot not flowing the lead fast enough...wrinkley boolits.... :-|

[mikenbarb]

Turn your temp down to where your comfortable and run your pot down to about 1/8 full and then fill it and let it fully recover in temp before you pour more boolits. I run my molds hot and they almost always get frosted ones(Because im not patient) and it doesnt hurt a thing. Now if your looking for the best possible accuracy thats another subject and you have to keep precise heat control on your pot and mold for the most precise boolits you can make. All boolits will vary in color depending what alloy and temp your running so find a spot where your dropping good ones and stick with it. Pick up a current Lyman Cast manual and dont look back.:-D Good luck!:drinks:
PS- Dont forget to weigh them to check for voids if your looking for the best accuracy or shooting competition.

[runfiverun]

i run mine about 750.
when i break the sprue with a glove on i flip it at the same time and catch it and put it right back in the pot.

you are not seeing "frosting" you are seeing fast cooling pulling the antimony to the surface and will also see an antimonial grey wash in your bbls when you fire the boolits.
frosting is white and will cause incomplete fill out to your boolit,the grey bit [i think] will actually help hold lube.
i also don't add more then 1 1-lb ingot at a time unless i want to take a break.

[Russel Nash]

^^^ Aaaahaa... I see!

Thanks.

A few months back one of you all here posted about flipping the sprue plate open with their gloved hand.

Man! I thought you were nuts.

I tried it!

And I like it.

a lot!

So thanks to whoever posted that piece of advice.

It sure is faster and more convenient than hitting it open with a stick.

I'm not quite brave enough to try catching the hot sprue in my gloved hand. Then again I am wearing thin leather gloves too.

I went to a Target store last night, again, looking for just the right size wire basket to catch the sprue...

Hmmn... I think I have an idea though... I could just tie wire a small wire mesh basket to the outside top of the ammo can and the sprues in that.

anywhoo... I like using the stout 20mm ammo can and the mesh basket to catch the bullets in.

I have the whole sha-bang sitting on a chair, so it's just at the right height to tap on to knock any stubborn bullets out.

The other thing I do is I stick the mould just barely into the melt to get it warmed up before I start casting.

Thanks again for the replies. :Fire: :Fire: :Fire:

[Russel Nash]

Oh... yeah... the Lyman 200 grain .45 SWC's I was casting actually weigh about 193 grains, not sized and not lubed.

The 9mm 147 grain mould I was using is dropping them at 153 grains, unsized, unlubed.

I forgot what the .40 cal pro-jo's were tipping the scales at. Close to the advertised 175 grains IIRC.

[Springfield]

Russel: go to Walgreens and pick up a Ove' glove or it's copy. They will allow you to touch hot things without burning yourself. They have a Kevlar/Nomex outer covering. Softer than leather gloves too. I gave up on leather gloves years ago.

[No_1]

Good post Russel,

I too never used a thermometer until last year and did not know what I had been missing for the last ~15 years. I always figured there was a problem with the lead mixture, the mould was not clean enough or something else but never took temperature into consideration. I just turned the knob on my pot to about 6 or 7 and always tried to use that setting for all my moulds. Some days I would have success and some days not.

When I got my thermometer I started to realize real fast that the spout stays frozen below ~600 degrees and will freeze anytime it goes below 600 (when I drop too many ingots in). I also realized that different moulds like different temperatures. The HP moulds like it real hot (~900 degrees) and others do fine around ~750. I find that most my moulds do good around ~800-825.

The speckles you are describing sound like what I use to see on some of my boolits when I was using plain WW's and the temp was pretty hot. A couple of years ago I started using certified foundry lead that has 3% antimony with a little tin added as needed and found that when the temperature is right for the mould all my boolits have a uniform silver look, not a chrome look like you get with pure lead and not a speckled look you would get with WW's. The boolits below are from L to R: .375/250 gr, 45-70/300gr HP, 45-70 300 gr WFNL, .452/255 gr, .452/180 gr. The 375 is frosted (frosted boolits actually actually look like they have been sand blasted without the pits, think of a frosted beer mug).
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p206/no_one_photos/Boolits/DSC01138.jpg



Another item that has made a difference in my casting was using a hotplate. This allows me to preheat my moulds to ~600 degrees which really minimizes the amount of culled boolits right from the start.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p206/no_one_photos/Hot%20Plate/DSC01136.jpg

The last item I would like to show which may help you out is the thermometer holder that I made from a simple paper clip. I took a paper clip, straightened out one end, wrapped it around the thermometer stem about 6 times then attached the other end under a screw that was already located on the rim of the pot.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p206/no_one_photos/Casting%20Thermometer/DSC01133.jpg
Seems that I could never get the thermometer to stand up in the pot using the clip that came with it. It was always falling over or out of the pot but now it stays right where I want it.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p206/no_one_photos/Casting%20Thermometer/DSC01134.jpg

I hope that helps answer your question, gives you some ideas and brings more questions to mind.

Robert

BTW, frosting hurts nothing. I shot frosted boolits for ~15 years.

[Russel Nash]

Thanks, No. 1!

The paper clip trick might come in handy for my birdshot maker.

I actually like how my thermometer floats up at an angle.

That way I can gingerly set my mould just enough into the melt to get it warmed up.

The mould kinda gets pinched in there between the thermometer stem and the spout rod.

I will go fiddle with something else for a while... like seperating out shot :veryconfu and then come back and the mould is ready to go.

The first few casts I have a brass hammer handy to knock the sprue plate over.

But after that, I can just push it with my gloved thumb.

Thanks for the replies!

[Russel Nash]

I would use one of my welding gloves (I have two pair actually) but there is just something about that leather, that the leathery smell just sticks to my hands for days afterwards.

No amount of handwashing seems to get rid of the smell.

A'yup I will have to check out the "ove'glove".

[mikenbarb]

I sold a couple Lyman HP molds here a while back that had a small wooden spru handle on them for parting the spru. It was a great idea whoever made them and they worked great and even looked like they came from the factory with them. I will try to find a pic and post it to show what it looked like.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

Hi, Some folks like to cast frosty bullets and there is nothing wrong with it in any way altho some others think that it is a waste of energy. It may also be at times necessary for some molds to work right. Whatever....frosting has absolutely zero to do with performance and or accuracy. If the person shooting next to you is of the opinion that frosted bullets constitute a violation of some social or ethical code, either ignore the comments or change to a different firing point. In the final analysis the frosting can be easily polished off of the bullet surface with a pad of #0000 steel wool and no one will ever know that it was there.
An interesting variation/innovation for moving the sprue pate around actually appeared on this forum not long ago. Someone filed the appendage/projection of the plate to fit into an open ended wrench and used that to swing the plate and cut the sprue. Unless the wrench built up enough heat eventually to cause any discomfort, the idea yields quite a bit more mechanical advantage and would be decidedly easier on the hand. Enjoy your casting. LLS

[Matt_G]

Robert,

Those temps sound pretty high to me.
I'm wondering if you're getting an accurate reading from that thermometer seeing as it is mounted right up against the side of the pot. That is where the heating element is...

That paper clip is a great idea though. I like it!

[Russel Nash]

^^^ You do have a point there...

But if he is like me, and cuts the power off to the pot and continues casting, as the temperature drops, and then the spout freezes up and just coincidentally the thermometer reads right around 600 degrees, then I would have to conclude that his method is sound.

The flip side would be true also.... If he goes to flip the power on to a cold pot, and he watches the thermometer and it reads something like 550 degrees and none of the lead is melted, then he'll know he is getting spurious readings.

[No_1]

I guess I need to do a test then to see if my temps are accurate. Next time I cast I will take the thermometer out of the "holder", let it cool down a little then stick it back in the center of the pot and see what is reads. I am pretty sure the temps I am reading are correct because I use to hold it by hand before but a check test won't hurt anything. I will try to do it tonight when I get home from work.

Robert

[Bret4207]

Most of my boolits look like #1's 375/250. I tend to cast hot, I use a ladle, and I get lots of well filled out boolits. I cull a lot that some folks would shoot too, but my culls are almost all cold mould related. I tend to get side tracked while casting and will notice something, work on it or the kids need something done, let my mould cool and I'm back to wrinkles and poor fill out. While a thermometer is useful it's the moulds temp that matters IMO. Some moulds just need more heat to do a good job.

[No_1]

Bret,

I agree completely about mould temp as it is as important as have the moulds oil free clean. This is why I use the hotplate. I always preheat my moulds to ~600 degrees prior to casting and as long as they are clean I get 99% good fill out without wrinkles right off the rip.

Robert

[Russel Nash]

I learned a valuable lesson last night.

With that mould sitting on top of the still cool lead, kinda leaning against the spigot rod... once the pot gets warm enough, it causes the spigot to start running a pretty good stream of lead.

Oooppsss....

I only left the room for a few minutes, luckily.

I think my next add on for my casting bench might be a cookie sheet.

And I will stay in the room and piddle around doing something else while the pot is heating up. Oh about 15 minutes plus.

PS: If I ever get to tinkering around and do make my own melting pot one of these days, I am going to carefully cut up the steel so that there is a channel iron ramp that leads to the inside of the pot. That way the mould and handles can be slid part way into the melt without contacting the spigot rod.

[azrednek]

Russel I don't have time to read the entire thread and this may have been mentioned. Meeting a contractor and have to leave shortly. I wanted to add a caution about casting at 750. If your mix is that hot and you're dropping in wheel weights you might melt a zinc weight into the mix. If you're melting down wheel weights be certain to keep the mix about 600 and zinc wont melt. As far as the proper temp for your boolits, I'm of the opinion to set it where you get the best results. I use frosty as kind of a guide and try for just below it. With some bad batches with no or not enough tin I may have to crank the heat up a bit more to get a good fill out. I water and air cool a couple of batches then mike them. If they look good and are the right size I leave the temp alone. MY Lyman gauge and RCBS knob are about 30-50 degrees apart so I have to guesstimate the temp but have found 700-725 works best for me when working with pure wheel weights.

[Willbird]

I run my promelt wide open, I premelt my alloy on a hotplate and ladle it in as a liquid to refill the pot, and I use the BruceB method of casting and adjust my quench time on the wet towel to get the mold to work as I like it.

Bill

[John Boy]

I actually like how my thermometer floats up at an angle.
Russell - all bi-metal thermometers, like the Lyman, have a band on the stem. This band records the temperature. Stem in the melt below the band = incorrect temperature reading

So, watch how yours floats. You would be better to keep it stationary

[atr]

Im not sure where I fit into this "mix" of responses but....
I use a stick to open the spruce and to drop the boolit....never do I hit it on or with anything metal.
For my temperature I try to keep it simple....if the boolits are coming out frosty then my temp is too high....if my boolits are coming out with wrinkles then its too low.....in short I adjust my temp depending on the finished product not to a specific Tempt.
I also try to keep the pot at about the same level of full...this helps keep the tempt within the optimum range for casting.
I drop the cast boolit onto a soft carpet square

[No_1]

OK Gents,

I did a very un-scientific experiment to see if the paper clip holder causes incorrect readings on the thermometer. For the record, the thermometer is a "Tel-Tru" brand with a range from 200-1000 degrees F.

I brought the melt up to temp and let it stabilize. I pulled the thermometer from the holder and placed it in the center of the pot but not touching the bottom. The temp returned to the degree it was in the holder. I then inserted the thermometer further into the pot until it was touching the bottom at the center of the pot and the temp stayed the same. I then re-installed the thermometer into the paper-clip holder but held it's "crimp" above the melt and the temp remained the same as the other location and as it was when it was installed to the bottom of the pot while in the holder.

My conclusion: My thermometer does not touch the side of the pot when in the paper-clip holder so it does not get side contact and even though it gets contact with the holder it does not appear to affect the temp reading. The temp seems to stay the same no matter where the thermometer is located and regardless of depth in melt. The only thing left to do is calibrate the thermometer and the only way I can do that at home is to boil some water and see if the thermometer reads ~212 degrees or so.

In closing, I know my experiment was not really scientific but it is as good as it gets for this garage caster. Please keep in mind that the results I get may not match your results. Not working in a controlled atmospere allows possible variables such as but not limited to: geographical location, constantly changing ambient air temp, moisture and other things that are smarter than me to affect the outcome of any this or any test.

Comments?

Robert

[Matt_G]

Thanks for doing that Robert.
Nice to know that the positioning of the thermometer isn't that critical.
As long as it isn't physically touching the pot, it's good to go. :drinks:
Not what I thought the outcome would be, but it's not the first time I've been wrong, nor will it be the last I'm sure. :mrgreen:

[No_1]

With all due respect to Russel and his thread I would like to go off on a tangent just for a moment but will touch on the topic to prevent this from being a complete hijack.

The thread started out with a question: "If you use a thermometer, which temp do you cast at/ a frosting question?". The answer can be any temp from the point when lead becomes fluid enough to pour good boolits to the point of the lead becoming hazardous to our health and to the health of those around us.

Our sport is about consistency. Shooting and casting alike. Shooting is about consistency: Breathing, trigger pull, wind / weather conditions and a host of other things that fight our ability to make that 1 hole group. Casting is exactly the same but in different ways.

Consistency in casting is about: lead alloy, alloy temp, rhythm, moisture in the air, ambient temp and a few other things that escape me at the moment. Some things we can control some things we can't. Two of the things we can control are alloy consistency and of course alloy temp. The lack of consistency in either of these "controllable" things will result in boolits that do not consistently: look, cast, weigh or shoot the same. Looks does not matter but the rest do.

Different alloys as well as different moulds cast good at different temps. The alloy I use (working from 2k lbs of a consistent alloy) seems to cast good at higher temps. Depending on the mould I may add some tin to help fill out but otherwise my current alloy likes high temps no matter what mould I use. A different / previous / new alloy will cast differently from the same mould at the same temp but may cast better at a higher or lower temp. Having the thermometer allows me to consistently return to the temp which I had previously cast at with a known alloy and in the process I will / should get the same results (diameter, weight and appearance) I originally achieved during my previous casting session which should result in the same performance (other components being consistent) at the range if I do my part. Consistency in casting eliminates one more thing that stands in the way of repeatable accuracy and a thermometer is one tool that will help me accomplish that goal.

Robert

[Bret4207]

Robert, you said a mouthful and I agree with every word!

[MT Gianni]

I would use the thermometer to make sure that your results are consistant. If someone else casts at 700 F how do we know how consistent/accurate his probe is? Get results that you and your molds like, write them down and duplicate it. For me a thermometer shows me how much a Lee pot varied froom full to 1/2 full on the same setting. No problem, now I keep it at a constant temp rather than a constant number setting.

[qajaq59]

Well, that thread was certainly worth reading. There's some good tips in there.

[Russel Nash]

I don't know if other electric pots are like this, but with the RCBS Pro Melt, a light comes on to let you know that the thermostat like controller is sending "juice" to the heating element, which means that the melt has dropped below the temperature you have the knob set at.

You can hear the light click on.

The light goes off when the pot has reached the temperature set by the knob. I can hear it if I am in the room piddling around with other stuff.

It's kinda convenient, especially when the knob numbers match up to the number indicated on the thermometer.

[Russel Nash]

@ No 1/Robert....

Nah... I didn't mind the thread jack at all.

I just need blaster or plinker type bullets for the action pistol games of IDPA, USPSA, and Steel.

I have both a Dillon 550 and a 650 to feed, so for now it's more quantity versus quality.

I bought the thermometer more out of curiosity sake, and maybe to limit any potential health concerns if I got the melt too hot.

I am guessing that for IDPA, USPSA, and Steel the vast majority of the targets are within 15 yards. In some USPSA stages the targets literally get the pasters blown off of them they are that close. :Fire:

When/if I ever do get into casting for rifle boolits, then I will pay more attention to having a consistent temperature all the time to cast at.

Thanks for all the replies.

[tommyn]

I have just started using a thermometer and was suprised at the temps I had been casting at. I use a Lee Pro 20 and 7 setting on it the lead was 950 degrees. I'm running the setting around 5 now and casting at 775 to 800. My molds sure are not getting over heated now and can cast many more bullets before changing molds. The thermometer sure opened my eyes as to what I was doing wrong. Great thread and thanks.

[John Boy]

So I am just curious, what temperature do you guys cast at (if you have a thermometer, that is)?
At the temperature of the melt that frosts the sprue puddle in 5 seconds. No frosted bullets

Every bullet mold has a specific temperature where the sprue puddle frosts as such - so it depends!

[qajaq59]

I'm using 725. That seems to be where the sprue hardens nicely by the time I count to 6, which was suggested earlier in a post. That's on a 1 and 2 cavity molds. It also seems to give me a good rhythm so I move right along smoothly. I've only been casting again for about two weeks. But doing what has been suggested in the various forums has made life a lot easier.

[cajun shooter]

Tommyn, Using a Lee Pot you will not have the same setting each time. The reostat that they use from my experience with owning 3 of them is not the same. I saw days that I could set the dial on 7 and cast and then with out adding lead the temp would go to 900 then down to 550. Same problem with all 3 so I did myself a favor and bought a RCBS Pro-Melt and started to enjoy casting again. I know that several people have used them for years but I'm only talking about the ones that I had. I also use a Tel-Tru thermometer and the RCBS dial has not needed to be adjusted in 5 months.