Dacron filler question

[Wolfdog91]

Ok so been reading around and I'm thinking using dacron would help with a few things I'm trying though I have some questions.
1. Dacron and polyfill are the same thing right ? I've read a few paragraphs worth of stuff that has my head kinda hurting. Lots of yes but no so on and so on
2. If so is batting better then regular fill ? The batting seems like it would be less of a pain since it's in more if a sheet form.

https://i.postimg.cc/Z0ZR8gRg/IMG-20211101-214408747.jpg (https://postimg.cc/Z0ZR8gRg)

https://i.postimg.cc/2bd5pdH2/IMG-20211101-214418192.jpg (https://postimg.cc/2bd5pdH2)

https://i.postimg.cc/xN019khY/IMG-20211101-214431039.jpg (https://postimg.cc/xN019khY)
3. Is their an easy semi precise way to cut it out for easy use ? Was thinking something like a hole punch type thing to cut little disks out kinda like how I've seen black powder guys do with paper or thin cardboard. Seems it wold be a good way to keep everything the same or as close to it as you get till you get one and fluff it out.

[NSB]

Lyman use to list loads that suggested adding Dacron fillers. In their last two releases they quit adding the use of fillers. When they did suggest it, they suggested it by weight, not size. It takes very little filler to accomplish the job. They would suggest using .5g of fill and that small amount was “plucked” up (stretched and pulled to expand it) and gently inserted into the case neck to simply fill the space between powder and bullet base. It was not packed into place or wadded up. It doesn’t matter which type you use since it’s all basically the same after plucking/lofting it up. My own experience using fillers hasn’t shown much, if any improvement in accuracy except for a couple of loads in my 45-70’s. In that case, I found I got better groups when using 2400 powder. If you do a search on this site you’ll find that there’s a ton of information about how to use fillers with smokeless powders. There are pitfalls if used improperly, packing filler in a case can sometimes “ring” a chamber. It’s meant to act as a spacer to hold the powder in position. If packed in the case it can act as its own projectile and create pressure spikes that can ring a chamber.

[scattershot]

I use batting, and cut it into about 1” squares with scissors. Works great. Don’t overthink it.

That said, I don’t use it much any more, since I really didn’t notice any improvement.

[TjB101]

For 2400 and low end charge of 3031 I use about a 1/2” square (1/3 thick) old batting from a blanket. Stretched out and then lightly pushed into the case. I’ve tried with and without and I get better performance with it in.

[Shopdog]

I use the "regular",non batting.
It is an extra step,but one that I don't mind if it makes a difference. Once all the cases are charged,flashlight inspected,I pull off just a little of the fill and gingerly place it in the case. Never have weighed it..... pretty easy to pull off equal amts. And considering how little is used,would suspect the weighing process anyway?

Does it help? Yes...... occasionally. Is it a "crutch", yeah sorta. It depends on a lot of factors,heck one being amt of "jam" on OAL. Is there a crimp? And so on. You're just gonna have to test it and see if you see enough improvement to go that extra step. I use it sometimes on hunting rounds,and not on target application because of the different shot angles here in the mnts. Meaning,it isn't solely predicated on accuracy per se. It can make the load more consistent over changing conditions. Good luck with your project.

[Edward]

I take the time to weight just like powder /precise in reloading counts in every step ! And 1/2 grain works for me in a 45/70 with 2400 powder 25.5gr (loose not packed)/Ed

[dverna]

If you go with the sheet stuff there is no need to weigh it. Cut out a square, weigh it then adjust size to the weight you want. Then cut up a bunch the same size. No need to get anal about it.

Worth trying as it is cheap if it works. I have a roll in case I ever go down that path but have not needed it...yet.

[barrabruce]

Dacron is a product name.
Batting has worked for me in some loads.
The stuff that plucks up like cotton wool is better than the hairy loose (poly fill stuffing)strands to position.
Pressures differ so start using it in low loads and work up.
Get a metre at the local fabric shop.
Just tease up a fluffy nap and use a Allen key etc to push and position the fill in the case.
It will expand back and fill the space.
You don’t want a gap and you don’t want to tamp it in either.

[georgerkahn]

...The stuff that plucks up like cotton wool is better than the hairy loose (poly fill stuffing)strands to position.
Pressures differ so start using it in low loads and work up...You don’t want a gap and you don’t want to tamp it in either.

My major experience has been with .45-70 rifle, and .45 (long) Colt loading where my thoughts were to attenuate positioning effects of the firearm cartridge on performance. I recalled reading the Brit's practice -- for this reason -- of always (when possible) point the firearm's barrel straight up before lowering to aim and shoot. Thinking (oft' a dangerous process for me ;)) a loose fibre might enable powder granules to migrate through it, I elected to use stuff purveyed at a local JoAnn Fabric store as "Batting".
As a side-note, too, I have tried and used a product called PuffLon (http://www.pufflon.com/newfront.html) 291142 which --in my experience -- works quite well.
BEST!
geo

[ABJ]

I use the sheets. Lay out on table and cut a strip one inch from the end. Then take the strip and cut off about 3/8" pieces.
Then I just use my fingers and pull apart and tug a little and use an unfolded paper clip and push one end down onto the powder. If a little is sticking out the case I let the boolit depress it. DO NOT compress into a disk, it should take up all the free air space between powder and the base of the boolit.
I use it in 30-30, 30-06, 35 Remington, and 45-70 and a host of 30/31 mil-surps. Powders I use it for is 4759/5744/2400 sometimes/4198 mostly. In my opinion it does help more times than not, 2400 being the exception.
Since there is controversy on the subject I don't advise anyone either way, just report my findings. It works for me on the target and the chronograph. Member here "Larry Gibson" is the person with the most data on how-to and how-not to use it.
Tony

[dale2242]

Read Larry Gibsons posts on using fillers.
He is our resident filler expert.

[NSB]

+1 on Larry Gibson. And yes, don’t go crazy trying to weigh it.

[Larry Gibson]

I prefer batting (same stuff, just in sheets) because it is easier to just cut chunks to the size needed which is to fill the space between powder and bullet. Read my post in the sticky as there are times to use a filler and times not to.....powders with certain burn rates and others that are mostly faster burning. The post will also give suggestion on putting the filler in the case.

Also, a dacron filler is not a panacea. It doesn't always improve accuracy but most often it improves the ignition and consistent burning of the powder.....that usually promotes better accuracy. I have chronographed and pressure tested thousands of rounds with a dacron filler without ever seeing any anomaly of the theories that supposedly cause "ringing" that is usually associated with the use of 'wads". Even though many use the term "wads" when referring to the use of a dacron filler understand there is a distinct difference between a wad and a filler. Lyman discontinued the use of dacron because of reported "ringing". whether it was from the use of dacron we do not know. However, Lyman's instructions used the dacron as a wad, not as a filler.

In your AR with the slower fast burning to slower medium burning powders (2400, 4198 up through Varget, 4064, etc.) giving less than 80% load density a dacron filler should show an improvement with a proven correct load. Use a complete filler so the powder isn't jostled around in the round in the magazine from the rifle functioning. Also, if you push above the RPM threshold those flyers probably won't go away because they are caused by too much RPM not by inconsistent ignition/burning. With a known load I suggest reducing the load 10% and working back up to the same velocity as the dacron filler, because it increases the efficiency of ignition/burn, will increase the preassure and velocity a bit.

[elk hunter]

The use of fillers such as Dacron is certainly controversial. I don't claim to be an expert and I'm not an engineer. I do use Dacron in some of my larger, generally large black powder era, cartridges to promote better ignition. I fill the case solidly from the powder charge to the base of the bullet as I believe that the filler then becomes part of the projectile weight. A very small tuft of Dacron or similar material to hold the powder charge against the rear of the case, while probably not dangerous, will likely move if the cartridge is shaken vigorously and not help that much with ignition. A weightier filler of any type, if seated against the powder and not in solid contact with the bullet, I believe can act as a second projectile when it slams against the base of the not yet moving bullet. Most of us have seen the results of a gun fired with a bore obstruction. I believe this is where the chamber ringing comes from. I've been advised by many well meaning people that I should use cotton as, unlike Dacron, it is consumed during the burning of the powder. In my case, that is definitely not true. Any filler I've tried has been ejected from the barrel in the same condition it was loaded in the case. This is not a definitive study just my experience over many years. Over those years I've burned over 35 pounds of H-4198 alone using this technique, not counting other powders, and so far no chamber ringing that has been predicted by many people. Perhaps I've just been lucky but I certainly hope that luck wasn't involved but rather sound reasoning based on careful thought. Of course your mileage may vary.

Just my over priced $0.02 worth.

[444ttd]

+1 on mr gibson.

[Wolfdog91]

I prefer batting (same stuff, just in sheets) because it is easier to just cut chunks to the size needed which is to fill the space between powder and bullet. Read my post in the sticky as there are times to use a filler and times not to.....powders with certain burn rates and others that are mostly faster burning. The post will also give suggestion on putting the filler in the case.

Also, a dacron filler is not a panacea. It doesn't always improve accuracy but most often it improves the ignition and consistent burning of the powder.....that usually promotes better accuracy. I have chronographed and pressure tested thousands of rounds with a dacron filler without ever seeing any anomaly of the theories that supposedly cause "ringing" that is usually associated with the use of 'wads". Even though many use the term "wads" when referring to the use of a dacron filler understand there is a distinct difference between a wad and a filler. Lyman discontinued the use of dacron because of reported "ringing". whether it was from the use of dacron we do not know. However, Lyman's instructions used the dacron as a wad, not as a filler.

In your AR with the slower fast burning to slower medium burning powders (2400, 4198 up through Varget, 4064, etc.) giving less than 80% load density a dacron filler should show an improvement with a proven correct load. Use a complete filler so the powder isn't jostled around in the round in the magazine from the rifle functioning. Also, if you push above the RPM threshold those flyers probably won't go away because they are caused by too much RPM not by inconsistent ignition/burning. With a known load I suggest reducing the load 10% and working back up to the same velocity as the dacron filler, because it increases the efficiency of ignition/burn, will increase the preassure and velocity a bit.

Which sticky ? I've googled and read alot by you on the subject

[Wolfdog91]

I use the sheets. Lay out on table and cut a strip one inch from the end. Then take the strip and cut off about 3/8" pieces.
Then I just use my fingers and pull apart and tug a little and use an unfolded paper clip and push one end down onto the powder. If a little is sticking out the case I let the boolit depress it. DO NOT compress into a disk, it should take up all the free air space between powder and the base of the boolit.
I use it in 30-30, 30-06, 35 Remington, and 45-70 and a host of 30/31 mil-surps. Powders I use it for is 4759/5744/2400 sometimes/4198 mostly. In my opinion it does help more times than not, 2400 being the exception.
Since there is controversy on the subject I don't advise anyone either way, just report my findings. It works for me on the target and the chronograph. Member here "Larry Gibson" is the person with the most data on how-to and how-not to use it.
Tony

Well the only reason I wanted it in disk for was to have it in a easily contained and weighted form. The idea was they could be cut out easily and in a more precise manner this way stored then upon uses you could just fluff one out before packing it in

[ABJ]

Well the only reason I wanted it in disk for was to have it in a easily contained and weighted form. The idea was they could be cut out easily and in a more precise manner this way stored then upon uses you could just fluff one out before packing it in

Well I sort of do that. After I cut the strips and then recut down to the 3/8" size I then store in container on the loading table. When I need them just pluck one out and fluff it up.
Tony

[Wilderness]

I realise that a lot of people have used dacron fillers without incident.

I am one of those supposedly rare people who has ringed a chamber, in my case a .32-40. This despite knowing of the hazard (filler acting as projectile etc) and loading to avoid the hazard as explained. Because I was aware of the possibility and watching for it, I caught the signs of it after the first few shots, and the damage was minor. This was with ADI 2207 (H4198) powder. From this experience I am very wary of the dacron filler concept.

Now if I use a filler I will use something non-compressible, such as Precision Spherical Buffer, and I will use enough of it to provide for some slight compression of the load plus filler.

There is an alternate explanation of chamber ringing based on the effect of a pressure wave alone striking the base of the bullet. The French chemist Veille, who kicked off the whole smokeless powder thing, conducted an experiment firing a charge in a closed cylinder, with the charge positioned at the rear of the cylinder, and pressure measuring devices at intervals along the cylinder. He demonstrated a pressure spike at the front end of the cylinder where the pressure wave hit the wall. This evidently is what can burst a black powder gun if the ball is not seated on the powder.

The sharp end of the chamber ringing problem seemed to be with .32-40s - tapered case, softer steels, fast powder, fillers .....

I believe there was an article in Precision Shooting years ago where the author demonstrated chamber ringing with Bullseye powder by doing no more than firing the rifle in the vertical position - no fillers involved, just a pressure wave.

A correspondent who was using dacron in expensive double rifles was working on the pressure wave theory and claiming that, depending on powder type, the pressure spike where the wave is arrested, i.e. at the base of the bullet, can be 50% to 100% higher than the measured pressure for the cartridge as a whole. This factor might or might not be correct, and I cannot supply any sort of reference for it, but it would explain why chamber ringing is not more frequent - perhaps the starting pressure for the loads that most of us use is low enough that the spike also is too low to damage anything.

On the chance that it is pressure spikes that do the damage, I am extremely suspicious of any filler through which a pressure wave might pass. The filler in that instance would be holding the powder back so as to create the conditions for a pressure wave to be produced. By contrast, in a cartridge without a filler we might expect the powder to be thrown around and redistributed throughout the case by the violence of the primer explosion and initial powder ignition, thus reducing the potential for a pressure spike.

Larry, can your modern pressure measuring equipment pick up a localised pressure spike say at the base of the bullet, or for that matter at a bore obstruction?

[Hootmix]

+1, to Mr. Gibson , a grn. is a grn., powder or filler, i use Dacron pulled & fluffed and add .04 grns. to 3031 for my 40-60 win. ( Chappie ). It does seem to work according to my chrono., & tighter group's . YMMV.

coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.

[Larry Gibson]

Which sticky ? I've googled and read alot by you on the subject

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?109280-The-proper-use-of-fillers

[Larry Gibson]

...... The filler in that instance would be holding the powder back so as to create the conditions for a pressure wave to be produced.

Larry, can your modern pressure measuring equipment pick up a localised pressure spike say at the base of the bullet, or for that matter at a bore obstruction?

Yes, The instrumentation can measure any pressure that expands the barrel....usually around 9 to 11,000 psi. That is well below that required to 'ring a chamber, even with older soft steel barrels. I have While pressure "spikes" are commonly seen they always have been after the primary pressure curve or at muzzle exit. After thousands of rounds tested having a proper dacron filler i have yet to see any indication of any "pressure wave". It may be possible to create the 'ringing" of a barrel using improper fillers or with wads in particular but I've not gone there as I don't desire to ring any of my test barrels.

Your statement; "The filler in that instance would be holding the powder back so as to create the conditions for a pressure wave to be produced." defines the use of a wad. A wad is pushed down onto the powder to hold it back against the rear of the case.

A proper filler, especially a dacron filler, is pushed into the case and lets the seating of the bullet compress the dacron against the powder to hold it to the rear of the case.

A dacron filler fills the space between the powder and bullet completely. A wad, whether dacron or something else doesn't fill the space between the powder and base of the bullet. Ergo the reason we must differentiate between what is a 'wad" and what id a "filler".

Thus, the question is begged; were you using the dacron as a wad, even if unintentional, or as a filler, which completely filled the space between the powder and bullet, when you ringed the chamber?

[charlie b]

Larry, 'completely filling the space' could be interpreted by some to mean 'packing' the filler in the case tightly rather than adding 'puffed' filler.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, 'completely filling the space' could be interpreted by some to mean 'packing' the filler in the case tightly rather than adding 'puffed' filler.

Not if they read the sticky and pay attention to what is said.

[charlie b]

And hopefully they will, but..... :)

[NSB]

And hopefully they will, but..... :)
You’ve always got some that figure “if some’s good, more’s better, then too much must be just right”. As Ron White said, “you can’t fix stupid”. Buy anything now days and if there’s instructions the first several pages are for idiots. Like, “don’t put this plastic bag over your head”, etc, etc, etc.

[Edward]

My major experience has been with .45-70 rifle, and .45 (long) Colt loading where my thoughts were to attenuate positioning effects of the firearm cartridge on performance. I recalled reading the Brit's practice -- for this reason -- of always (when possible) point the firearm's barrel straight up before lowering to aim and shoot. Thinking (oft' a dangerous process for me ;)) a loose fibre might enable powder granules to migrate through it, I elected to use stuff purveyed at a local JoAnn Fabric store as "Batting".
As a side-note, too, I have tried and used a product called PuffLon (http://www.pufflon.com/newfront.html) 291142 which --in my experience -- works quite well.
BEST!
geo

Loose works well ,when in doubt when done shake inverted (no way) does it filter thru . Batch of bad primers and using an inertia bullet remover +60 primers never happened /nuff said Ed

[Wilderness]

Thus, the question is begged; were you using the dacron as a wad, even if unintentional, or as a filler, which completely filled the space between the powder and bullet, when you ringed the chamber?

Thanks Larry.

Being aware of the problem in advance, and of the explanation that says that a wad can become a projectile and the bullet an obstruction, I thought I was being careful to "fill" not "wad". However, something went wrong and I don't feel like repeating the experiment.

Another lever action shooter of my acquaintance, from another state, ringed another Marlin .32-40. I don't know the details other than that his was a Marlin Smokeless Steel barrel, whereas mine was Black Powder.

I had another experience that may or may not mean anything. It was with dacron in a .32-20 (I've forgotten the load) with Nickel Steel barrel (there was no ringing).

I shot the same load with powder level and no filler, powder shaken to rear of case and no filler, and then with filler.

The powder at rear and the load with filler as I recall gave about 100 fps more velocity than the powder level, and nearly identical velocities. One shot high relative to "powder level" and the other shot low. Again I don't recall which was which, it being about 20 years ago. It did strike me however that something other than velocity difference was going on.

[muskeg13]

I realise that a lot of people have used dacron fillers without incident.

I am one of those supposedly rare people who has ringed a chamber, in my case a .32-40. This despite knowing of the hazard (filler acting as projectile etc) and loading to avoid the hazard as explained. Because I was aware of the possibility and watching for it, I caught the signs of it after the first few shots, and the damage was minor. This was with ADI 2207 (H4198) powder. From this experience I am very wary of the dacron filler concept.

Now if I use a filler I will use something non-compressible, such as Precision Spherical Buffer, and I will use enough of it to provide for some slight compression of the load plus filler.

Likewise, despite trying to be careful, I managed to slightly "ring" a very heavy barreled .405 Winchester High Wall clone on the second shot and have avoided fillers for the past 20 years. I didn't get a complete "ring" but have a very shallow indent. I don't remember the specific load, but it was a most likely a 400 or so grain plain base cast boolit and should have been a very mild pressure load. Extraction was unaffected, but cases must be trimmed to square the case mouths. The thinner Bertram case on the left is more affected than thicker Hornady brass. On rare occasion, I have used shotgun buffer powder, cornmeal or cream of wheat, but now just avoid fillers completely.

I'm seriously considering having the ringed tube bored out and rechambered to .50-70. The extremely heavy round barrel is over 1" in diameter and though the chamber is indented, there is no bulge whatsoever.
291444

[reedap1]

I've stopped using fiber-type fillers like dacron, PuffLon, etc in place of the gray foam rod insulation material.

https://www.amazon.com/Frost-King-C22H-2-Inch-20-Foot/dp/B000BQSSXY/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=foam+rod+insulation&qid=1636462343&sr=8-4

I decide on a length for each load that puts the top of the rod when inserted into the case, just below the base of the bullet giving very slight compression. It has almost no weight, burns to completion, and leaves no appreciable fouling in the bore that is not easily removed with most bore solvents. I shoot mostly big bores like 470 Nitro and others but I have found that this insulation material, which can be had in various diameters and is cheap, to be an excellent filler and much less tedious to use than the fiber materials. It can be cut easily with a razor blade or scissors and is not that hard or troublesome to install in the case with an appropriately sized dowel rod.

In one example shooting a PC bullet in my 45-70, groups were about 3-4" at 100 yards without filler and shrank to 1.5" with a filler.

Just my experiences, YMMV

Paul

[white eagle]

don't over think it
just pull it off and stuff into case
all you are trying to do is fill the void
have a pet dog who like stuffed toys?
there is the dacron fill