44 Magnum, .429 or .430 sizer?

[archangel2003]

I am purchasing all my reloading tooling as the funds become available.
38 S&W, 9mm, 45acp, 45 colt and 45 Raptor, done.
7.63x39/54R, .308 and 30-06, done.
I intend to purchase a 44 caliber revolver with a 6" barrel and 44 lever rifle in the future, and in regards to gas checks, they offer sizer dies in both .429 and .430, and I'm unsure as to which to get and why.
Also as far a casting molds, LEE offers some that cast .429 and some in .430, and either size can be had with and without gas checks.

BTW, I also noticed I will have the same issue with the 38 spl/357 Magnum molds and sizers.

Here is the thing.
It seems obvious that
.429 sizer is for the .429 bullets/gas checks
and
.430 sizer is for the .430 bullets/gas checks

However

Do I assume
.429 for low pressure?
and
.430 for high pressure?
or
.429 for revolvers?
and
.430 for rifles?

but then I would also think.
no gas check for low pressure.
and
gas check for high pressure.

The gas checks are only offered for both diameters but only on the heavier bullets like the .429 @240 grains and the .430 @310 grains that I assume at such a heavy weight is only intended for rifles?

I thought I had a good grasp on all the basic aspects of reloading until I started researching the 44 and 38/357 caliber reloading tooling.

[oley55]

Not sure where to begin.

The size (diameter) of your boolits is dictated by your weapons barrel and throats. Bullets should be sized to .002" over the barrel lands, or for a revolver sized to a push/slip through the cylinders? In 44mag, I have Dan Wesson and Ruger Redhawk pistols and a Rossi R92 lever-gun. None of them use the same sized cast bullets. That's not to say there aren't weapons that will take the same sized bullets (because there are), but mine don't and you can't know until you have the weapon in hand. Even the same brand/model revolver will be different from gun to gun.

Shooting in the dark as you are without specific 44 mag guns in hand, I would not for a second believe .429" would work in hardly anything. .430" would be the smallest I'd consider and wouldn't be surprised if .431 wasn't a better choice.


Edit added: if you can get a copy of Beartooth Bullets, Technical Guide by J. Marshall Stanton, it is full of cast bullet to firearm information, and any one of the Lyman Bullet Casting manuals as well.

Edit 2: Cut out a bunch trying to be nicer.

[ShooterAZ]

I use .430 or .431 for all my 44Mag loads, depending on the gun. I haven't used a .429 sizer on anything 44 (.429), but there may be some applications for it. Try pushing a sized boolit though the cylinder of your revolver, you will want it to pass through with a slight bit of resistance. If it just drops through it may be on the small side. Just my $02.

[ShooterAZ]

Oley55, please cut a little slack here. He's just looking for a little help!

[Tar Heel]

I think what oley55 is saying is that if I had never before ridden a motorcycle and do not know how to drive one, it would be silly of me to go to a Harley shop and purchase the biggest bike I could and expect to drive it off the lot to home. Having bought all the accoutrements for the bike like a proper leather jacket, a Nazi helmet, skeleton mouth wrap and bad ass biker glasses will not help much either.

Your questions allude to a novice loader/caster and questions are good to ask. My initial response to your inquiry was, "this guy is going to blow himself up" since he appears to be trying to run before he can walk. None of us are trying to offend you however and all of us will be polite and courteous. We just don't know how to best respond to your question. "Where to start" comes to mind.

I, like oley55, suggest you begin by consuming all the material you possibly can regarding reloading and bullet casting. I see that you have been a member here since 2013 so perhaps you have been lurking and reading a lot already. For the bullet casting aspect of our hobby, one of the best booklets you can read is From Ingot to Target: A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners located here on the LASC web site: http://www.lasc.us/castbulletnotes.htm
That comprehensive document will address your two indicated questions in great detail.

As oley55 indicated briefly, the bore size or cylinder mouth size will determine your bullet size. Gas checks are sized with the bullet so a 44 caliber GC will be either .429 or .430 depending on what you are sizing the bullet to.

You may not even need gas checks. I drive plain base 45 caliber bullets to 1700fps with a hard alloy and great lubricant.

So two of us are suggesting some serious reading if you have not already done so. Again, not trying to offend you but your question(s) make a response difficult.

[oley55]

Oley55, please cut a little slack here. He's just looking for a little help!

edited for slack.

[DougGuy]

First rule? Don't Assume ANYTHING. This is the easiest and CHEAPEST way to NOT get off on the wrong foot.

Wait until you get the gun before you buy the first die. Some S&W 44 magnums have throats in the .433"+ range, you would need to size to fit these throats, not what the barrel measures. .429" and .430" is what commercial jacketed boolits measure. Most cast boolits would be .431" with the .430" a distant second. I say this because I hone MOST 44 cylinders to .4315" for use with .431" boolits. Cast boolits IMO work well .001" greater than groove diameter, throats sized .0005" greater than boolit diameter insure boolits are delivered to the barrel at intended diameter. This arrangement works very well in every centerfire revolver cartridge regardless of caliber.

If your entry level 44 is 44WCF now you got sizing dimensions of a totally different animal to contend with and for sure you will want the guns in hand before you venture into choosing boolits and boolit diameters.

[archangel2003]

Thanks for the info and I will read up more on the subject.
I have reloaded for 308 and 30-06 for fun and 9mm 45acp and 45LC because I'm becoming too cheap to pay modern prices and it all seemed rather straightforward, and 12 Gauge was something I got into a year ago or so and was interesting to say the least.
.452 for 45acp and 45LC and .454 for 45-70.
There is .309 for the 308/30-06, and .312 for the 7.62x39/7.62x54R and the sizes were recommenced.
The thing is, I'm not going to blow myself up, and the last time I owned a 44 Magnum was in the late 1980's when everything was cheap and plentiful and reloading was something only competition shooters and SERIOUS hunters ever bothered to do.
Now with the recent threats to the 2nd amendment, I am just making sure I can shoot everything I own and then some, and making sure those family members who inherit my guns can do no matter what those idiots in Washington decide to do.

[Bazoo]

Welcome and howdy. No shame in being new and asking questions to wrap your mind round it.

Some 44 caliber guns will do fine with bullets .429, some okay with .430, some need larger. It’s the nature of the caliber, and of manufacturing slop. Most of the 44 mag guns are made to jacketed specs. There is a lot more leeway when using jacketed bullets. A rifle might have a .432 groove and do just fine with .429 jacketed bullets. Whereas you’d need At least a .432 cast bullet.

Gas checks allow higher pressure without leading. They also allow a gun that has a bit of thread choke to shoot without major leading. Thread choke is where the barrel is screwed into the frame and is slightly constricted. The bore there will be from .0005 to .003 smaller. That plays little difference in jacketed performance but will not allow cast to shoot without inaccuracy and leading unless it’s very minimal.

Not everyone sizes to throat diameter. Some size .430 with .434 size throats and their accuracy is fine. It’s a try it and see kind of thing.

Die sets are not equipped for these fatter than standard bullets. NOE bullet mould company makes expanders that fit the lee universal expander die body, that allow brass to be expanded larger to accept fat bullets. The reason that you need a larger expander is because the brass case will swage the bullet base down from (example) .432 to .429. I suggest an expander that is .001 smaller than bullet diameter.

Gas checked bullets work okay with normal expanders because the gas check resists being sized. Gas checks are an all around good thing except they take an extra step in making your bullets, and they cost something more. Some folks say bad things in regards to gas checked bullets. I say it’s an easy way to get ammo for an otherwise ornery gun. Don’t rule them out.

I shoot both gas checked and plain based bullets and I size to .431 for my gun.

Bullet diameter, .429,.430,.431 makes no difference in pressure, and no difference as to which guns they are intended for. The options are there to accommodate specific size variations between guns. Custom mould makers like “accurate” moulds will make them any size you need.

[dkf]

I size to .432" most of the time. I buy most sizers under the size I need by .001" or .002" and then polish them to size on my lathe. Reason I do that is because many sizers are rather rough on the inside. Especially Lee sizers. Polishing them to myself allows me to get the sizer bore very very smooth.

[Hickok]

I have S&W .44 magnum revolvers and two rifles in .44 magnum, a Winchester 94 and a Henry Big boy.

Get a .431" sizer to start with and then contact lee and have them custom make a .432" sizer for you. (or you can hone out a sizer yourself)

[archangel2003]

So, what y'all are saying is if I shoot something out of a 44 and it does not work well, slather the bullet in powder coating to make it pretty and be done with it? LOL
:dung_hits_fan:
I actually do have some very tiny/little brake wheel cylinder triple stone hones that I used back when I was just starting out as a mechanic and disk brakes were considered new technology.
I don't know if I have one that small though.
If it comes to that, I probably can hone them out.
I used those hones to get a better fit for my AK trunnion to fit on the barrel.
Yeah, they used to clean up brake cylinder and master cylinder bores and replace the pistons/"O" Rings rather than just replace the whole thing.

[45DUDE]

I do like post #3-in 44 mag. A gas check will help if you go fast. An Elmer Keith Lyman 255 grain is my better accurate mold with out a gas check. Mine drops at .431.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

44 mag has a long torrid history.

[white eagle]

I size my revo boolits to .429 after coating and checking, if needed.
Size is determined by a couple of factors that need to be known to make a good cast boolit
bore diameter and cylinder throat diameter make your choice dependent of those

[Bazoo]

.431 is a good place to start.

[gwpercle]

What I have learned over the last 50 years is ...
Whatever sizer you buy ... you usually need the next larger or smaller size .

The Lyman Cast Bullet Manual sized their 44 special and magnum boolits to .429" and is a good place to start ... but so many variables in barrels , bores and tolerances ...you just never know exactly what size a revolver will want/need .

44 magnum ... buy three dies .429" .430" and .431" this should cover any handgun and rifle needs but ...
Chances aregood that .432" gun is lurking just waiting for you to buy it !

I have gotten by with:
.357" & .358" for 38 spcl / 357 magnum & 9mm Luger
.451" & .452" for 45 acp
.429" & .430" for 44 Special Revolver ...
.431" is for a Rifle , Rossi lever action .

What I'm trying to say is ... One size is never enough ... if you are ordering sizer die just go ahead and order two or three becuase at some point in time you will be sure to need it .

NOE sells a bullet sizer that has interchangable bushings and they come in a plethora of sizes
Check out their sizing kit at the shop www.noebulletmoulds.com it's a neat set up .
Gary

[alamogunr]

What I have learned over the last 50 years is ...
Whatever sizer you buy ... you usually need the next larger or smaller size .

The Lyman Cast Bullet Manual sized their 44 special and magnum boolits to .429" and is a good place to start ... but so many variables in barrels , bores and tolerances ...you just never know exactly what size a revolver will want/need .

44 magnum ... buy three dies .429" .430" and .431" this should cover any handgun and rifle needs but ...
Chances aregood that .432" gun is lurking just waiting for you to buy it !

I have gotten by with:
.357" & .358" for 38 spcl / 357 magnum & 9mm Luger
.451" & .452" for 45 acp
.429" & .430" for 44 Special Revolver ...
.431" is for a Rifle , Rossi lever action .

What I'm trying to say is ... One size is never enough ... if you are ordering sizer die just go ahead and order two or three becuase at some point in time you will be sure to need it .

NOE sells a bullet sizer that has interchangable bushings and they come in a plethora of sizes
Check out their sizing kit at the shop www.noebulletmoulds.com it's a neat set up .
Gary

This!

I am looking into a .429 Sizer for a recently acquired FA 97 in .44Spec. Should have done it a long time ago for a converted S&W Model 28. Luckily I had a RCBS 44-250 mold that cast very close to that.

[Shopdog]

There's also the notion of shooting them,"as cast" .... as in,no sizing. Good luck with your project,and please report back...
(Not directed at OP) it's the "polite" thing to do. Folks spend time to respond,trying to help and the questioner goes,MIA.

[archangel2003]

I will report back but it will be a while and it all depends on when I get the 44 caliber revolver and lever gun.
I'm getting all my expected supplies first for intended use in the future.
I have an odd work schedule and truly hate attempting to reply to anything using that tiny little phone which is the only thing I have 90% of the time, so only when I am on the computer is when I have the time and access to check personal emails.

[725]

Seems that SAAMI has two different standards for the .44 mag. Revolvers are a thou or two smaller than the rifle bore. Might need a better source than me to confirm.

[archangel2003]

Seems that SAAMI has two different standards for the .44 mag. Revolvers are a thou or two smaller than the rifle bore. Might need a better source than me to confirm.

I got one of each size mold (heaviest and gas checked for the size) and a sizer in each size.

[Char-Gar]

The OP's assumptions are not valid. As others have said, you must have the firearm in front of you and know it's critical measurements or else he will be like a dog chasing his tail.

[archangel2003]

The OP's assumptions are not valid. As others have said, you must have the firearm in front of you and know it's critical measurements or else he will be like a dog chasing his tail.

(Attempting to sound like Jerry Reed) Look now son, if LEE Precision, the most affordable brand out there, and my preferred brand, only makes the .429 and the .430 bullet molds and the .429 and the .430 sizers, I'm betting they will probably fit a majority of the guns that are on the market.
I'll just have to make sure and check before I purchase a revolver or lever gun, to see if they will fit what I got, if not, I can either keep looking to find an appropriate firearm, or simply purchase another bullet mold and sizer from somebody else.
GOD FORBID, the idiots in charge try to outlaw everything one would need to reload, if so, I already have somewhat of a head start for the upcoming turmoil.
Also, it's not like I have a $500 investment that will go bust if it's not a perfect match, and there is always the "sell anything that does not work for you on EBay" option.

Yeah, Jerry Reeds voice was perfect!;)

[Char-Gar]

(Attempting to sound like Jerry Reed) Look now son, if LEE Precision, the most affordable brand out there, and my preferred brand, only makes the .429 and the .430 bullet molds and the .429 and the .430 sizers, I'm betting they will probably fit a majority of the guns that are on the market.
I'll just have to make sure and check before I purchase a revolver or lever gun, to see if they will fit what I got, if not, I can either keep looking to find an appropriate firearm, or simply purchase another bullet mold and sizer from somebody else.
GOD FORBID, the idiots in charge try to outlaw everything one would need to reload, if so, I already have somewhat of a head start for the upcoming turmoil.
Also, it's not like I have a $500 investment that will go bust if it's not a perfect match, and there is always the "sell anything that does not work for you on EBay" option.

Yeah, Jerry Reeds voice was perfect!;)

Very interesting approach, but not my approach.

I hear you saying to have faith in Lee and if that faith proves ill-founded buy and try again. Then there is the punt position, whereby you purchase a firearm so you can use your cheap tool. What is not clear is how you will determine your unpurchased gun will be happy with your tools.

My approach is that knowledge trumps blind faith in a tool maker, knowledge forms the basis for purchase and the purchase will produce the desired results. It goes like this: 1. Buy the gun. 2. Take the measurements. 3. Buy the correct tools. 4. Experience joy with your positive results.

Our minds do not sync, so do as you please. I will say, I continue to be amazed at the number of people that come to this board asking for counsel, but not wanting counsel that disagrees with their preformed notions. They are looking for agreement and not information. Seems like a waste of time to me.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Jerry Reed (AKA:archangel2003)
Welcome to the castboolits forum.
I edited my previous advice, because I didn't realize your were a beginner to casting...your join date confused me.

44mag guns (from all manufacturers) have quirks that you will likely learn about along the way, if you find yourself loving this caliber.

With that said, I offer the following advice for your questions and comments about 44mag. Since you are sure of your direction to buy tools before the gun, Look for the Lee 430 molds and the Lee 430 boolit sizer. That will be a great start. Look for a good "Hardball" alloy. Lastly, look for a good manual, I suggest the Lyman castbullet handbook 4th ed. Be sure to read the entire first half of the manual, then read it again, that info will help give you a good foundation of this hobby.
Good luck.

[jgt]

If I was new at casting for 44 caliber guns I would get sizer dies in .430 through .433. That should fix you up fine for handguns and rifles from pre-war to present.

[alamogunr]

With the recent post above, I checked my .44 revolvers. The results are interesting.

S&W 696 .44 Spec .428
S&W Hwy Patrolman .430 (Converted to .44 Special)
Ruger Bisley Blackhawk .44 Mag .431
Freedom Arms 97 .44 Spec.429

Boolits that I have cast and sized .431 w/gc, have worked well in all four guns. All shooting was done on the same day as I don't get to go to the range very often. I was most concerned with the performance of the FA 97 since it was the last purchased and had the tightest throats. Also the most consistent along with the converted Model 28 S&W. The other two had throats that at least one chamber differed by .001. That's not enough to give me the vapors.

[Tripplebeards]

All my 44’s in rifle and pistols slug at .429. I size at .430 with a lee sizer in all. My 77/44 shoots sub MOA with thr alloy and powder combos it likes. Did some old posts on it a few years back.

[farmbif]

.431 as long as it chambers in your gun your good to go, this has been good for me in a bunch of 44 cal guns

[parson48]

A few years back I had a Marlin 44 mag that slugged at .433+. I enlarged my Lee sizer accordingly. I now shoot a Rossi 92 in 44 mag that slugs at 431. I was surprised that the .433 sized boolits chamber & shoot just fine through it.

By the way, a Marlin service rep told me that my .433+ bore was within specs.

[JoeJames]

I use .430 or .431 for all my 44Mag loads, depending on the gun. I haven't used a .429 sizer on anything 44 (.429), but there may be some applications for it. Try pushing a sized boolit though the cylinder of your revolver, you will want it to pass through with a slight bit of resistance. If it just drops through it may be on the small side. Just my $02.Same here - .430 - .431. Shooting a Ruger BH in 44 Special and a Rossi R92 44 Magnum. .429 rattles around going down the bore of both.

[alamogunr]

Can you hear it?

[1hole]

Archangel, this "precise cast bullet diameter" question is a frequent reloading topic but gets WAY too fussy. Discussions about esotoric lead bullet diameters of a thou or less to insure a supposed perfect fit to a new guy's firearm while telling him nothing about the only thing that matters, i.e., his rational on-target accuracy, is NOT the right way to go; truth is, handguns and cast bullets are not Bench Rest tools.

NO ONE is going from bug hole groups to 36" groups on paper at 100 yards because of a thou difference - or much more - in lead bullet diameter! In fact, I'd bet that no one here can prove an observable difference in their own handheld ammo accuracy due solely to a spread of as much as 3-4 thou in sized diameter. (That's why Lee's popular and near factory "perfect" diameter cast bullets actually shoot so well with no sizing at all for so many people!)

IME, for a .44 magnum, cast 220+ gr bullets hard (with or without a GC), size them to .429", use a good lube, load them to at least 90% of book max and shoot them. Varying your powder charges up and down a few tenths will probably make a bigger difference on your targets than playing with costly +/- .001" increments of bullet diameter!

If the bullet starts undersized at all, a fast moving and heavy magnum bullet will slump back at ignition and, at the same time, the body will swell as large as the chamber and bore will allow - it's called obturation and it happens with jacketed bullets as well, so no undersize initial diameter boolit will matter. On the other hand, if a boolit starts too large, the chamber and bore will size it to a very precise fit when it has traveled it's own length.

So - start off with whatever you have. It will take thousands of rounds (and maybe years of experience) before you can reload OR shoot well enough to see any difference at all in your sized groups.

NOTE to outraged and indignant readers: This tome is only about .44 and .357 magnums and it ONLY fully applies to man-sized stout loads using normal (but heavy-for-caliber) boolits. Lady cartridges (meaning anything starting with a number less than "4") while shooting light weight lady bullets over puny lady powder charges are much more finicky. All of the low recoil little cartridges - including Europe's current 9mm fad - tend to be much more accuracy sensitive to carefully prefitted hard cast boolits. IMHO of course. :)

[rockrat]

I have a NEF Handi rechambered to 445 SM. Slugged it and it came out right at .433". .433" boolits were only so-so, but once powder coated, things improved greatly.

[Grayone]

I size to .432" most of the time. I buy most sizers under the size I need by .001" or .002" and then polish them to size on my lathe. Reason I do that is because many sizers are rather rough on the inside. Especially Lee sizers. Polishing them to myself allows me to get the sizer bore very very smooth.

This^^^^^^ is what I do also after many tries to get the right diameter for a 44 rifle. It also works in my 44 revolvers.

[white eagle]

I size my revo boolits to .429 after coating and checking, if needed.
Size is determined by a couple of factors that need to be known to make a good cast boolit
bore diameter and cylinder throat diameter make your choice dependent of those

I will also ad if you size your boolits 0.002 over the bore dia and fire your boolit through chambers that are smaller than the bore you are wasting lead your boolits are now sized to you cylinder throats

[1hole]

I have to grin when I read reloading experts having fun agonizing about sizing cast handgun bullets by 1 or 2 magic thousants. However, no handguns or cast bullets are going to shoot .5 moa groups anyway so sweating about sizing 44 mags by .429" vs .430" is an exercise in futility.

When fired over anywhere near max loads the noses of most magnum cast bullets will easily slump to quite a bit more than is needed/required to obturate the bore and nothing sizes a bullet to precisely fit the bore better than the barrel itself.

My old Mod. 29 shoots max 2400/H-110 charged, moderately hard .429/250 gr. SWC bullets into 4" hundred yard groups (off a bench of course); no tweaking the starting diameter by a couple of thou is going to improve it. And it sure wouldn't instantly start wildly shooting 12 moa groups if I made them two or three thou larger than that.

[S.B.]

If you're in the dark how and what about the other calibers you list? Same rules/suggestions for all of them.
Steve

[JoeJames]

Can you hear it?No, my ears ain't as good as they used to be, but the .429's key holed at 15 yards in my Henry in 44 Special/44 Magnum.

299107

[BUCKEYE BANDIT]

[smilie=l:[smilie=l: My new Henry BB slugged @ .4305 I'm gonna try .429 and see if I can hear them.

[JoeJames]

[smilie=l:[smilie=l: My new Henry BB slugged @ .4305 I'm gonna try .429 and see if I can hear them.Took my Army physical in 1971; they said I had massive high frequency hearing loss. So that's my excuse as it ain't gotten better since then.

[Grayone]

Hear What??? LOL My wife says my favorite word is 'what??". I bought a lee .430 sizer and honed it out to .4315 and it took care of my 44 issues both handgun and rifle.

[DougGuy]

I will also ad if you size your boolits 0.002 over the bore dia and fire your boolit through chambers that are smaller than the bore you are wasting lead your boolits are now sized to you cylinder throats

I often say that boolits sized larger than the cylinder throats only raises pressure, and regardless of what they size to when assembling loads, boolits will exit the front of the cylinder at throat diameter, if throats are smaller the cylinder is merely a multi port sizing die at this point.

[1hole]

... regardless of what they size to when assembling loads, boolits will exit the front of the cylinder at throat diameter, ...

Yep.


... if throats are smaller the cylinder is merely a multi port sizing die at this point.

Yep. And cylinders really aren't very good sizing dies.

[1hole]

No, my ears ain't as good as they used to be, but the .429's key holed at 15 yards in my Henry in 44 Special/44 Magnum.

299107

Joe, IF your hearing loss is service connected or (reasonably considered to be so, even if it occurred long ago) the VA can/will provide you some excellent hearing aids. Without mine I'd have to communicate with semaphore flags.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

It is a bit like the chicken and egg thing. If you are a revolver fan having a set of pin guages is invaluable. Ordering molds and size tooling before you take the measurements is a gamble. Getting the cylinder throats to groove diameter right is critical and many revolvers will need the throats honed before they will be good cast shooters. I just did all this on a .45 Colt and it turned out very well.

When i first started casting i made the error of over sizing my boolits without knowing what my throats were. I was tumble lubing and got leading and spitting. Once i started sizing to throat diameter those issued cleared right up. I can shoot humdreds of rounds now without cleaning the barrels. I determined that it is a bad idea to let the throats size down your boolits.

[JoeJames]

Joe, IF your hearing loss is service connected or (reasonably considered to be so, even if it occurred long ago) the VA can/will provide you some excellent hearing aids. Without mine I'd have to communicate with semaphore flags.Add in tinnitus (orchard full of dry flies). But I got my first 22 revolver when I was ten, but did not learn about hearing protection until I was on the college varsity rifle team when I was 18 - so ain't the government's fault there.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Add in tinnitus (orchard full of dry flies). But I got my first 22 revolver when I was ten, but did not learn about hearing protection until I was on the college varsity rifle team when I was 18 - so ain't the government's fault there.

My tinnitus has transitioned into sounding like crickets on a summer night. Better than just a high pitced tone i guess......

[Bazoo]

In my flattop Blackhawk 44 special I was getting minor leading when sizing to .431. My throats range between just over .431 and just over .432. And my bore is .4292. I changed to the exact same load, but sized .430 and leading was reduced from minor to very minor-none. I was surprised because reading this forum had me of the belief I needed to first, hone my throats to a uniform size (of .4325 for my gun) then size to that diameter. I’m sure many members have experienced good results that way, but that’s not always the rule. My gun does better when sized just over groove diameter. It turns out there are several respected members here that size the same way I do, it’s just they are quiet about it most of the time so they don’t have to defend their position against the group. I bet there is a bunch of people that size to throats and never tried groove or slightly over just because they read it. Then they have problems and wonder why.

[trapper9260]

I have a 44mag RH and then after got a 1894 Marlin . I started off with .429 in the RH and seen how my groups was not like I wanted . I got a size die for .430 and my groups close up and better . I try them in the Marlin and the groups was not bad, then later I got the .431 die and trying it in the Marlin first and big improvement on the groups and then trying in the RH and got the same with improvement . So I stay with the .431 with both. I know I cold go .432 with the Marlin , I will just stick with the .431. Just to show the OP what the different in size have done .

[beagle]

Go .431". When you apply pressure to the base of that .431" bullet, it will swage down. This was wisdom from Walt Melander when he was with us and running NEI./beagle

[tward]

Good to hear from you beagle! Missed your sage musings! Tim

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Go .431". When you apply pressure to the base of that .431" bullet, it will swage down. This was wisdom from Walt Melander when he was with us and running NEI./beagle

My SBH likes a .431" and though my Henry SS sluged at .432" 431" shoots great out of it. They do bump up upon firing. Just swabbed out my 45 Colt Bisley after putting 100 rounds through it and it came clean with just patches and solvent. Throats at .4525 and boolits at .452. 20/1 alloy and simple lube.

[Ridgeback44]

I've got an 1894 Marlin .4315 barrel and was terrible with hard cast .429 bullets, light target loads. Once I used .432 with a softer alloy it shoots very tight groups. I suspect the.429 bullets might shoot better with heavy loads, obturate better. The load can make a huge difference on the accuracy.

[Larry Gibson]

In my flattop Blackhawk 44 special I was getting minor leading when sizing to .431. My throats range between just over .431 and just over .432. And my bore is .4292. I changed to the exact same load, but sized .430 and leading was reduced from minor to very minor-none. I was surprised because reading this forum had me of the belief I needed to first, hone my throats to a uniform size (of .4325 for my gun) then size to that diameter. I’m sure many members have experienced good results that way, but that’s not always the rule. My gun does better when sized just over groove diameter. It turns out there are several respected members here that size the same way I do, it’s just they are quiet about it most of the time so they don’t have to defend their position against the group. I bet there is a bunch of people that size to throats and never tried groove or slightly over just because they read it. Then they have problems and wonder why.

Many years back, right after the article was published in the gun rag on sizing to the cylinder throats [Venturino?] and everyone jumped on that band wagon including me. For many years I had just been sizing my 44 Magnum bullets of various styles, thousands of them, at .429 and had been blissful with the accuracy and no leading out of several 44 magnum rifles and revolvers. I also shot thousands of commercial cast 240 gr SWCs sized at .429. After reading the article and finding I was dealing with throats of .431 to .234. I was convinced sizing to throat diameter would turn my very accurate loads to lasers. The hard part back then was to find a mould that would cast bullets that large. After some searching a fellow loaned me an old Lyman Ideal single cavity that would cast a #2 alloyed 429421 at .434. I also had access to a Ransome Rest with appropriate inserts for the 4 revolvers to be used [S&W M29, Ruger OM BH, Ruger Super BH and a Hawes Western Martial]. All the revolvers had groove diameters of .429 - .4295. I had also accumulated a .430, a .431, a .432 and a .433 H&I dies. The .434 bullets were as cast. Lube used was Javelina.

I loaded up a bunch or "Keith" loads [22 gr H 2400] under the various sized bullets. The group testing was done at 50 yards with each group being 12 shots, twice around the cylinder. Each revolver had groups test with all the sized bullets; .429, .430, .431, .432, .433 and .434. The "on target" results were revealing. The bullets sized .430 gave the best group in all 4 revolvers. The .429 sized bullets gave the second best groups in 3 of the 4 revolvers with the exception of the Hawes revolver with the .434 throats. The .431 sized bullets began opening the groups up in the same 3 revolvers and gave the second best accuracy in the Hawes. The bullets sized .432, .433 and .434 produced groups twice that of the .429 and .430. We were dry brushing the bores between each test and noticed leading was building up in the barrel throats. The leading was removed before further testing.

After all that testing, which took the better part of a day at the range, we were in a quandary as to why the bullets that "fit" the throats didn't give the best accuracy or the "great" accuracy we were expecting. Later that spring when the snow had melted, I recovered a lot of those test bullets. What I found was many of them were severely elongated and misshaped. I also measured the diameter of many of them. That was when I discovered lubed bullets will ride a layer of lube in the bore and come out the muzzle .002 - .005 smaller than groove diameter of the barrel. The worst misshaped bullets recovered were of .424 - .425 diameter. It was also noted many of the bullet bases were not square with the axis of the bullet nor was the SWC portion.

The assumption was made and verified in later testing and sizing it down that much under acceleration did nothing good for the bullets accuracy. This was also verified sometime later running the same type of test using several M1917 and M25 S&W revolvers. Also, with sever 38 SPL revolvers. We consistently found using bullets sized over .02 larger than the barrel groove diameter consistently gave poorer accuracy.

Bottom line is I have since used bullets sized not over .002 than the barrel groove diameter. My standard size for 38/357s is .358. In my 41 Iuse .410. In my 44-40s I use .429. In my 44 magnums I use .430 and in my 45 cals (revolver, semi's and rifles) I use .452. They always give me the best accuracy and no leading with my own cast bullets and loads.

I appreciate the fact that others say sizing to the throats miraculously an improves accuracy and prevents leading. Perhaps for them it does. However, through years of shooting thousands of "undersized" cast bullets in revolvers and extensive casting I have not found improvement unless the bullet is not sized more than .002 over barrel groove diameter.

Anecdote, back in my PPC days all the "big guns" used Federal Match 38 SP LHBWCs, particularly at the 50 yard line. I got a partial box of that excellent load to duplicate. I took 10 rounds, chucked them in my mini lathe, turned off the crimp and then used an inertial puller to remove the bullets. I was amazed at the used and abused look of those bullets and that their diameter ran .355-.356. Obviously, they were .002+ smaller than the cylinder throats of the custom PPC revolvers they won all the Gold with! No matter what I tried, even using custom swaged bullets at .357 I could never equal the accuracy of that federal load. I fired 3 into the bullet trap at the crime lab and lo and behold, The bullets came out of my Power Custom PPC revolver with a .357 barrel groove diameter at .355 diameter!