What would you ask a CCI employee?

[Idaho45guy]

Found out that we are getting a new employee tonight. She previously worked down in Lewiston, ID at the plant that makes the primers, ammo, bullets, etc. for CCI/Speer. I think it's called Orbital ATK.

She was there for 14 years, so should have some interesting insights into the supply and manufacture of ammunition and components.

Can't wait to pick her brain on the current shortage.

Anyone have any specific questions they want me to ask her?

[megasupermagnum]

Why do they make both the #550 and #400 primers when even CCI admits they are the same primer?

[Minerat]

Do they still get the bulk packs of 22 ammo that are 500 cartons taped and filled for $5.00?

[BNE]

Do you have a room full of small pistol primers you would sell? :)

[cwtebay]

Ask her if she knows"One Piece at a Time" and lived it. Then ask her to dinner depending on her answer.

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[dverna]

I have plenty of primers and .22’s. If she was attractive, I might have a few questions.

[BunkTheory]

the shortage is primarily being created by the industry.

Do you HONESTLY believe that 22 rimfire for example is going to be un findable if the factories are making it at the production they claim?

federal claimed they still had every round of 9mm rimmed in storage in 2010....

[M-Tecs]

the shortage is primarily being created by the industry.

Do you HONESTLY believe that 22 rimfire for example is going to be un findable if the factories are making it at the production they claim?

federal claimed they still had every round of 9mm rimmed in storage in 2010....

The ONLY ammo setting in Federal warehouses is for one reason and one reason only. That would be a shortage of truckers. My sources are Jason Vanderbrink President of Ammunition for Vista Outdoor and interacting with numerous Federal employees on a weekly basis.

Currently Federal is running 24/7 and if possible they do maintenance on the machines when they are running. Unlimited overtime and the employee company story is mostly closed. They do have stoppages due to material shortages.

[Wayne Smith]

Yeah, and 9mm Rimmed was withdrawn from the market because it fit in the old 38 S&W revolvers. Probably the definition of a bad idea. So, if any are left I'm sure they are stashed somewhere.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Our lgs got a mess of .22 rimfire in. So much that there was no limit. I have plenty so I didn't buy any. Will have to stop by and see if they have primers. Have not been there in over a month.

[dverna]

the shortage is primarily being created by the industry.

Do you HONESTLY believe that 22 rimfire for example is going to be un findable if the factories are making it at the production they claim?

federal claimed they still had every round of 9mm rimmed in storage in 2010....

Would you elaborate on why creating a shortage is good for the companies that produce stuff? I cannot wrap my head around that.

[Burnt Fingers]

Why do they make both the #550 and #400 primers when even CCI admits they are the same primer?

If that's the case it's just a package difference.

It keeps people who don't know they are the same from bombing their email and phone lines with stupid questions.

[M-Tecs]

Yeah, and 9mm Rimmed was withdrawn from the market because it fit in the old 38 S&W revolvers. Probably the definition of a bad idea. So, if any are left I'm sure they are stashed somewhere.

I am surprised that Federal has not destroyed any remaining stocks.

https://john1911.com/9mm-federal/

This is one of those cartridge screw-ups you just have to laugh at because it’s so obvious in hindsight. Back in the late 1980s, Federal decided shooters needed a revolver cartridge that duplicated the ballistics of the 9mm Luger pistol cartridge. I don’t blame them—the 9mm was a hot commodity back then.


Ballistically, there really wasn’t much one could gain over .38 Special +P loads with a rimmed 9mm. One argument for the new cartridge though was that if there was a rimmed version of the 9mm Luger, like there is for the .45 ACP (.45 Auto Rim), guns could be made with a shorter length cylinder, making them overall smaller and lighter.

Unfortunately, the 9mm Federal (left) is so close to the old .38 S&W (right) that a potentially dangerous situation exists.
Enter the 9mm Federal—a rimmed 9mm revolver cartridge that sent a 115-grain JHP at 1,280 fps. Charter Arms made a Pit Bull revolver for it, but left the cylinder full-length, so nothing was gained over a .38 Special as far as the gun size was concerned.

Unfortunately for Federal, it was AFTER the cartridge was introduced and put in production when someone’s light bulb came on. The 9mm Federal has almost the same cartridge dimensions as the old .38 S&W. There are a whole lot of old top-break revolvers chambered for the .38 S&W, and that cartridge operates at a much lower pressure. The 9mm Federal cartridge fits in .38 S&W chambers and, because of the very real possibility that someone could fire 9mm Federal in an old top-break revolver resulting in a KaBoom!, the cartridge was dropped in the early 1990s.

[Texas by God]

I saw a few 100 packs of CCI LR "OEM" primers for sale at a store the other day. $12/100. I've never seen those before, what's that about?

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[beechbum444]

just curious......wont a 38 super fit in a 38 special cylinder??????

[Idaho45guy]

The former CCI employee in question is still in training, so I haven't been able to converse with her much.

I was able to ask why she left her former job and she responded that she was tired of being asked to fill 5 different job functions with no increase in pay.

I remarked that I thought they paid pretty well down there and she scoffed. She said the work atmosphere was so toxic, that new employees couldn't decipher if the treatment they were getting was genuine dysfunctional abuse, or just normal hazing.

The town of Lewiston, ID is infamous for being an epicenter of white trash idiocy and failure, so the reports that an ammo manufacturer located there is rife with dysfunctional business practices and employees is not surprising.

[dale2242]

We will never know if she was mistreated or if it was a personal issue.
I hesitate to judge a company on the word of one disgruntled employee.
i am not doubting what she says but just saying.

[Rich/WIS]

RE: 38 ACP in a 38 SPCL, yes it can be done. Was on the range a few years ago and two elderly gentlemen were having problem ejecting cases in a SW M10, case would slip past the extractor. Went to see if I could help and found they were shooting 38 Super, thinking it was same as 38 SPCL. Apparently being semi-rimmed there was enough rim to catch on the extractor and hold it against the firing pin blow.

[Polymath]

I would ask if "They" made brass for Speer and how long to took to set up a new run for a different size? Reason I ask is there are some runs, 303 Savage for example that are only made one every 5 years. It is near impossible to find.

[cwtebay]

RE: 38 ACP in a 38 SPCL, yes it can be done. Was on the range a few years ago and two elderly gentlemen were having problem ejecting cases in a SW M10, case would slip past the extractor. Went to see if I could help and found they were shooting 38 Super, thinking it was same as 38 SPCL. Apparently being semi-rimmed there was enough rim to catch on the extractor and hold it against the firing pin blow.I think that must be more common than we think. Picking brass up at a local range almost always yields 38 Super brass, and inevitably you can see the distinctive mark of multiple failed ejections on several. I really didn't notice it as it's not a caliber I shoot, but I traded to a buddy who brought it to my attention.

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[Geezer in NH]

OEM primers marked that have not had the excise tax paid on them they were to be sold to licensed ammo manufactures only. The tax is paid when sold for the public by the ammo maker.

Pittsman/Robertson law taxing guns and ammo to go to the states for hunting conservation and other things like Public ranges.

[cwtebay]

I saw a few 100 packs of CCI LR "OEM" primers for sale at a store the other day. $12/100. I've never seen those before, what's that about?

Sent from my SM-A716U using TapatalkI purchased "a couple" of these in 2016 from a former small ammunition manufacturer. I believe that they were intended to be sold in loaded components only, thereby only paying the tax once. Perhaps I was misinformed?

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[wv109323]

I would ask what the difference is between CCI Std. Vel. and pistol match. Multiple times I have seen the SV more accurate than the pistol match. Ransom Rested in target pistols.
Is there priorities in shipments? Do police departments order get priority over standard orders?
Years back during the 22 lr shortage CCI gave a youth program several thousand rounds of ammo. How was that given priority?

[Idaho45guy]

Was able to talk to her a little bit and asked about primers. She said they received an order from Homeland Security for a million rounds so all small pistol primers were prioritized to be allocated for that order.

She also said that they had employees sitting around with nothing to do due to a shortage of raw materials. The biggest one was brass.

She said the primer was made entirely of brass. The silver colored cup is nickel-plated brass. I didn't know that.

[David2011]

the shortage is primarily being created by the industry.

Do you HONESTLY believe that 22 rimfire for example is going to be un findable if the factories are making it at the production they claim?

federal claimed they still had every round of 9mm rimmed in storage in 2010....

A good friend delivers a raw material to the Winchester plant in Illinois. They have no completed ammunition in the warehouse. Are you ignoring the increased demand by new gun owners and fear of the future?

[kfd518]

I would ask what the difference is between CCI Std. Vel. and pistol match. Multiple times I have seen the SV more accurate than the pistol match. Ransom Rested in target pistols.
Is there priorities in shipments? Do police departments order get priority over standard orders?
Years back during the 22 lr shortage CCI gave a youth program several thousand rounds of ammo. How was that given priority?

Give a bunch of kids that have a new found love of shooting a pile of ammo when there is none to be had you have likely made a lifelong customer.
That’s how it was given priority. That’s also what I would do if I was in a position to make that happen. They are the future of our country as well as the future of our armed forces and gun community in general.

[dverna]

Was able to talk to her a little bit and asked about primers. She said they received an order from Homeland Security for a million rounds so all small pistol primers were prioritized to be allocated for that order.

She also said that they had employees sitting around with nothing to do due to a shortage of raw materials. The biggest one was brass.

She said the primer was made entirely of brass. The silver colored cup is nickel-plated brass. I didn't know that.

She is an idiot. Anyone who thinks 1 million rounds will suck up primer supply is very inexperienced.

I expect she will not last long if her job requires any critical thinking.

[lightman]

I've always wanted to know the difference in manufacture between standard and match primers.

[Idaho45guy]

She is an idiot. Anyone who thinks 1 million rounds will suck up primer supply is very inexperienced.

I expect she will not last long if her job requires any critical thinking.

I would say that a 1 million round order for a single plant would be significant. She worked there for 14 years, so I would think that she knows a bit more about how various orders and allocations affect the production of the plant than most people.

She also made that statement in the context of the latest order and didn't imply that the single order was responsible for the nationwide shortage of primers over the last year.

She's a nice lady and it's unfortunate that you chose to call her an idiot.

[cwtebay]

She is an idiot. Anyone who thinks 1 million rounds will suck up primer supply is very inexperienced.

I expect she will not last long if her job requires any critical thinking.While I am enjoying this dialogue - I don't feel that name calling is in order. This is a simple discussion concerning a former employee that neither of us knows, and her remarks are concerning a contract that may be one of many that are being managed.

1,000,000 primers for one single order!? That's quite a pile considering that it's to one single commitment! Especially considering that Homeland Security would likely have ordered in the tens of millions in loaded ammunition - 'tis a drop in a VERY large bucket of potential orders that this company may have committed to.




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[Ford SD]

if My math is correct there is 6 Zero's in a million

1 mill / 1000 = 1000 Bricks ..... 1k x 1k = 1 m

How many bricks in a case 10 ??

1million primers = 100 Cases ??

Not really a Lot, Possible its 2 Skids of primers ???? I never saw 2 skids of primers, to count them

[BunkTheory]

I would ask what the difference is between CCI Std. Vel. and pistol match. Multiple times I have seen the SV more accurate than the pistol match. Ransom Rested in target pistols.
Is there priorities in shipments? Do police departments order get priority over standard orders?
Years back during the 22 lr shortage CCI gave a youth program several thousand rounds of ammo. How was that given priority?

there is no actual difference between "standard", or "pistol". match or target denotions on the box are even less meaningful.

Best way to put it, going by the company sheets of Fiochi, CCI, and Aquila, pistol and standard velocity are the same thing.

With Eley, the fancier the name, technically means that the cartridges assembled in that lot data held a tighter grouping in their testing facility. And in many cases, there is a 5 to 10 dollar difference in price of a 50 round box of Eley 22lr based simply upon "this lot of assembled ammunition held a group size of 2 inches and 50 yards, while this other one held 2.5"

[dverna]

I would say that a 1 million round order for a single plant would be significant. She worked there for 14 years, so I would think that she knows a bit more about how various orders and allocations affect the production of the plant than most people.

She also made that statement in the context of the latest order and didn't imply that the single order was responsible for the nationwide shortage of primers over the last year.

She's a nice lady and it's unfortunate that you chose to call her an idiot.

Lake City produces 4 million rounds of ammunition per day....if someone thinks 1 million is a huge order, well...they may be nice, but...

Of course, for a small company like Federal, a 1 million round order in the last 14 years may be HUGE and memorable. LOL.

[M-Tecs]

there is no actual difference between "standard", or "pistol". match or target denotions on the box are even less meaningful.

Best way to put it, going by the company sheets of Fiochi, CCI, and Aquila, pistol and standard velocity are the same thing.

With Eley, the fancier the name, technically means that the cartridges assembled in that lot data held a tighter grouping in their testing facility. And in many cases, there is a 5 to 10 dollar difference in price of a 50 round box of Eley 22lr based simply upon "this lot of assembled ammunition held a group size of 2 inches and 50 yards, while this other one held 2.5"

Where do you come up with this stuff? It's hard to get that much misinformation in so few words. With price increases in the grade of 22LR your are getting tighter tolerances and quality control.

Federal no longer makes the Olympic Grade 22 ammunition mostly due to the tooling wearing out and a limited market. I did build some of the inspection tooling used for that application and the methods and QC used to produce their Olympic Grade 22LR and standard 22 were not remotely similar. That is the same for all world class 22LF manufactures.

There are very real differences in the grading and manufacture process. That being said some firearms have a preference that not only brand/grade related but lot to lot within a specific brand/grade.

[M-Tecs]

Lake City produces 4 million rounds of ammunition per day....if someone thinks 1 million is a huge order, well...they may be nice, but...

Of course, for a small company like Federal, a 1 million round order in the last 14 years may be HUGE and memorable. LOL.

I have no idea how many rounds Federal produces daily but just in 12 gauge trap loads they are currently producing 1.2 million per day.

[BunkTheory]

Lake City produces 4 million rounds of ammunition per day....if someone thinks 1 million is a huge order, well...they may be nice, but...

Of course, for a small company like Federal, a 1 million round order in the last 14 years may be HUGE and memorable. LOL.

yet can you or them actually show where it GOES

[M-Tecs]

yet can you or them actually show where it GOES

Yes LC provides military ammunition and each lot has a specific lot number that can track usage and when and where those lots were issued and expended. Every round is signed out via lot number and certified expended with the same lot number when it is expended. The military generally manufactures all the ammunition for their own usage. They do not sell to the civilian market. They do purchase from the civilian market when they can not met their own demand level.

Through the years I have shot a lot of IMI issued ammo. For the pistol marksmanship team the 38WC and the 45ACP SWC match was IMI, Federal and Winchester. For 22LR I have been issued Winchester White Box, Winchester T-22 in both rifle and pistol versions, Remington Target and various grades of Eley with Eley pistol on the low end and Eley TenX EPS on the high end and yes every box was tracked via lot number.

[David2011]

I've always wanted to know the difference in manufacture between standard and match primers.

According to a segment on one of the Outdoor Channel gun shows, match primers are made by the most skilled employees and are supposed to be more consistent than those made by other employees. All primers in that facility (CCI IIRC) were made by hand. All rimfire cartridges had the primer put in them by hand as well and then they're spun by a machine to sling the primer into the rim.

[cwtebay]

According to a segment on one of the Outdoor Channel gun shows, match primers are made by the most skilled employees and are supposed to be more consistent than those made by other employees. All primers in that facility (CCI IIRC) were made by hand. All rimfire cartridges had the primer put in them by hand as well and then they're spun by a machine to sling the primer into the rim.Can you imagine; as an employer - saying hey you fellas (gals) make match primers. Based on some random impression(s) between your interactions with those employees - do you feel that's a reasonable / objective way of making precision versus masses? Because as an employer - cannot possibly imagine making that distinction on any given day.

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[fixit]

Question..... Why is homeland security buying primers? Last I heard, they weren't in the business of loading their own ammo. Sounds kinda fishy to me!

[BunkTheory]

Question..... Why is homeland security buying primers? Last I heard, they weren't in the business of loading their own ammo. Sounds kinda fishy to me!

homeland security creates shortages and problems, just like when they started buying any removable magazine holding over ten rounds in it, a few weeks before all those lib states passed magazine capicity laws

[BunkTheory]

Yes LC provides military ammunition and each lot has a specific lot number that can track usage and when and where those lots were issued and expended. Every round is signed out via lot number and certified expended with the same lot number when it is expended. The military generally manufactures all the ammunition for their own usage. They do not sell to the civilian market. They do purchase from the civilian market when they can not met their own demand level.

Through the years I have shot a lot of IMI issued ammo. For the pistol marksmanship team the 38WC and the 45ACP SWC match was IMI, Federal and Winchester. For 22LR I have been issued Winchester White Box, Winchester T-22 in both rifle and pistol versions, Remington Target and various grades of Eley with Eley pistol on the low end and Eley TenX EPS on the high end and yes every box was tracked via lot number.

yet all of the bulk FEDERAL CARTRIDGE i have seen in .223 and .308 has come from the lake city arsenal that isnt even OWNED by the federal government....

[M-Tecs]

yet all of the bulk FEDERAL CARTRIDGE i have seen in .223 and .308 has come from the lake city arsenal that isnt even OWNED by the federal government....

Not correct. The Lake City Ammunition plant is U.S. government-owned but contractor-operated facility. Federal is owned by Vista and Vista is a spin off of ATK. ATK managed LC between April 1, 2002 until I Oct 20202 when Winchester took full control after winning the contract for the next 7 years.

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/01/federal-premium-continues-relationship-lake-city-plant/#axzz7B2cDCM00

https://www.ammoland.com/2020/10/winchester-assumes-operational-control-of-lake-city-army-ammunition-plant/#axzz7B2cDCM00

https://www.ammoland.com/2020/11/how-much-ammunition-is-produced-for-the-united-states-market/#axzz7B2cDCM00

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_City_Army_Ammunition_Plant

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/atk/

https://news.northropgrumman.com/news/features/orbital-atk-and-lake-city-army-ammunition-plant-a-proud-heritage-of-service

Federal M193 or M855 is military usage only. Federal XM193 or XM855 is for the civilian market. Post Oct. 2020 you will start seeing Winchester LC headstamps

The paperwork and tracking is somewhat different. With the M193 and M855 the tracking documents require both issue and expenditure signatures and dates. With the XM193 and the XM885 lot tracking ends at the distributor same as other civilian ammo since it is civilian ammo. Not sure of the legal details of the cosharing space and equipment.

[Idaho45guy]

Talked to the former employee a little bit more last night. Asked her how many rounds they put out and she said they had five lines and the minimum was 45,000 rounds per hour for each one. Most run around 70,000 per hour, 24 hours per day, 7 days per week. She said they get multiple 5 million round orders every week. I must have really misunderstood her the first time.

[M-Tecs]

https://www.ammoland.com/2020/11/how-much-ammunition-is-produced-for-the-united-states-market/#axzz7B2cDCM00

Read more: https://www.ammoland.com/2020/11/how-much-ammunition-is-produced-for-the-united-states-market/#ixzz7B6YuoBTJ

How Much Ammunition is Produced for the United States Market?
Ammoland Inc. Posted on November 27, 2020 by Dean Weingarten

Image courtesy Dean Weingarten
U.S.A. –-(AmmoLand.com)- For the second time in a decade, demand for ammunition has outstripped supply in the United States. The first ammunition bubble was from 2012 to 2017. The next started in 2020.

Ammunition manufacturers have increased their capacity. In the face of increased demand, it has not been enough. Ammunition plants are running 24/7 to make profits while demand is high. Shortages still exist in the United States. Common calibers have disappeared from store shelves. Prices have risen. Panic buying and purchasing for private stockpiles have increased.

Those who purchased a stockpile in the interval between ammunition bubbles from 2017 to 2020 are considered wise and foresighted. At one point in October of 2018, .22 rimfire ammunition was available at 2.5 cents per round.

How much ammunition is being produced and purchased in the United States market?
During the .22 rimfire bubble, the productive capacity was increased from about 4 billion rimfire rounds to 5 billion rimfire rounds per year. The National Shooting Sports Foundation has estimated total ammunition produced for the United States market in 2017 at 8.1 billion rounds. In 2018, the total ammunition production for the United States was estimated at 8.7 billion rounds. The numbers for 2019 should be published in December of 2020.

A reasonable extrapolation puts the amount of ammunition produced for the United States market at somewhat over 9 billion rounds, of which 5 billion are rimfire and 4 billion are centerfire rifle, pistol, and shotgun rounds in 2020.

To put those numbers in perspective, the capacity of the U.S. military to produce small arms ammunition is 1.6 billion rounds per year. 99% of small arms ammunition for the military is produced at the Lake City ammunition plant in Independence, Missouri. From alu.army.mil:

Over 99 percent of all small-arms bullets (5.56-millimeter [mm], 7.62-mm and .50-caliber) consumed by the Army under its Title 10 responsibility to supply and equip its forces are manufactured at the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant.

Lake City is the last of the World War II ammunition plants still in operation. All the rest have been shut down and decommissioned. In World War II, the U.S. produced 21.6 billion rounds of small arms ammunition per year. Most of the ammunition plants were shut down immediately after the war. During the Korean war, 4 plants were brought back into service. Now only the Lake City plant is operational. From jmc.army.mil:

After VJ day, all small caliber production plants except Lake City and Twin Cities were closed.Years later, the Korean Conflict would only require operation of six small caliber ammunition plants to meet wartime requirements. Five plants were utilized in the Vietnam War and amazingly today‟s production is able to meet requirements of 1.5 billion rounds per year by operating one facility, Lake City with Alliant Tech systems (ATK) as the current operating contractor. Modernization of production lines and new technologies has provided the abilities to meet this mission with a reduced infrastructure. Additional rounds are procured from General Dynamics and provided by NATO forces to meet total requirements. 48

Ammunition manufacturing capacity, for the United States market, is about 9 billion rounds per year. About 5 billion are rimfire, about 4 billion are centerfire.

Small arms ammunition capacity for the U.S. military is about 1.6 billion rounds per year. It is all centerfire ammunition.

[dverna]

Talked to the former employee a little bit more last night. Asked her how many rounds they put out and she said they had five lines and the minimum was 45,000 rounds per hour for each one. Most run around 70,000 per hour, 24 hours per day, 7 days per week. She said they get multiple 5 million round orders every week. I must have really misunderstood her the first time.

What is important is her report they are running full out. It was frustrating seeing posts accusing Federal of limiting production in some kind of conspiracy. Companies are driven by profit.

[David2011]

Can you imagine; as an employer - saying hey you fellas (gals) make match primers. Based on some random impression(s) between your interactions with those employees - do you feel that's a reasonable / objective way of making precision versus masses? Because as an employer - cannot possibly imagine making that distinction on any given day.

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You make it sound like it’s a random selection. I would expect that the line supervisor would know who’s the best.

[cwtebay]

You make it sound like it’s a random selection. I would expect that the line supervisor would know who’s the best.Exactly.

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[Outpost75]

Yeah, and 9mm Rimmed was withdrawn from the market because it fit in the old 38 S&W revolvers. Probably the definition of a bad idea. So, if any are left I'm sure they are stashed somewhere.

I remember the 9mm Federal well. When we got samples of the ammo for testing but no gun yet to use it I went through the dregs in the gun vault and blew up a dozen .38 S&W top breaks of various makes and we sent them to Federal. The rest is history.

If you just happen to own a Ruger Service Six India Model .380 Rim, they work wonderfully in that other than shooting six inches low to the sights at 25 yards, the guns having been sighted for 178-grain .380 Mk2z. FMJ

[dverna]

I called the ex Federal employee an idiot based on what was originally reported by the OP. The OP has concluded he must have misunderstood what he was told.

Sources you may think are reliable may not be.

In this case the OP made an honest mistake. If I had not challenged it, we may have wallowed in ignorance. I was chastised by two members for using the word idiot but it fit....based on what was first reported.

Question everything....and use common sense. That is the lesson to be learned

[myg30]

M-Tecs, thank you for all the very informative info you have posted. It was a long over due education for me about who, how and where all the ammunition is made and going.
The links were most appreciated.

Mike

[TRX]

"Where de Berdan primers at?"

Urban legend says they make them for the export market, but don't sell them here.

[almar]

Question..... Why is homeland security buying primers? Last I heard, they weren't in the business of loading their own ammo. Sounds kinda fishy to me!

They ordered a million rounds, not just the primers.

[Kuduking]

I called the ex Federal employee an idiot based on what was originally reported by the OP. The OP has concluded he must have misunderstood what he was told.

Sources you may think are reliable may not be.

In this case the OP made an honest mistake. If I had not challenged it, we may have wallowed in ignorance. I was chastised by two members for using the word idiot but it fit....based on what was first reported.

Question everything....and use common sense. That is the lesson to be learned

Let's see here. Based on a second-hand account which lacked context, you determined that yet a third person - whom you have no personal knowledge of but worked 14 years at the very company which was topic matter - was an "idiot". And you further denigrated that person's intelligence and fitness for a job ("wont' last long"), again with no first-hand knowledge of the individual or the job.

Then you doubled-down on it.

Polite discourse. That is the lesson to be learned.

[Idaho45guy]

Let's see here. Based on a second-hand account which lacked context, you determined that yet a third person - whom you have no personal knowledge of but worked 14 years at the very company which was topic matter - was an "idiot". And you further denigrated that person's intelligence and fitness for a job ("wont' last long"), again with no first-hand knowledge of the individual or the job.

Then you doubled-down on it.

Polite discourse. That is the lesson to be learned.

Dverna is bi-polar like me. We can be super supportive and polite in one thread, then some random comment in another will set us off and we will hurl insults and denigrate others at the drop of a hat.

I'm aware of it and am really trying to not get triggered by the usual suspects and statements. My avatar is a reflection of that. I need to be more like Fozzie Bear who when insulted by the grouchy old men, just laughs it off and tells jokes.

[snowwolfe]

there is no actual difference between "standard", or "pistol". match or target denotions on the box are even less meaningful.

Best way to put it, going by the company sheets of Fiochi, CCI, and Aquila, pistol and standard velocity are the same thing.

With Eley, the fancier the name, technically means that the cartridges assembled in that lot data held a tighter grouping in their testing facility. And in many cases, there is a 5 to 10 dollar difference in price of a 50 round box of Eley 22lr based simply upon "this lot of assembled ammunition held a group size of 2 inches and 50 yards, while this other one held 2.5"

And how do you know this to be true?

[dverna]

Dverna is bi-polar like me. We can be super supportive and polite in one thread, then some random comment in another will set us off and we will hurl insults and denigrate others at the drop of a hat.

I'm aware of it and am really trying to not get triggered by the usual suspects and statements. My avatar is a reflection of that. I need to be more like Fozzie Bear who when insulted by the grouchy old men, just laughs it off and tells jokes.

You might be correct!!!

I have a low tolerance for foolish people. When someone says an order for 1 million rounds is significant, I know that is wrong based on my gut feel, and a 5 minute Google search will verify that. But many people will believe what is reported by an employee with 14 years at a company without thinking. Especially if it fits what they want to believe.



BTW kuduking, "polite discourse" is fine if we want to debate the merits of jacketed vs cast bullets, lube vs PC, or if the .270 is a better all round caliber than the .30/06 etc etc. Polite discourse is not how I handle those who lie, mislead or deceive. The Chief Engineer I worked for when I graduated told me, "Don, there are times you need to call a spade a ****ing shovel".