Bullets still key holeing

[catkiller45]

Slugged the bore to times got .429 dia.. this is a Henry 44 mag. Bullets 200 to 240 grain. At 25 yards they keyhole. Commercial bullets. Hardness,not sure.. is it possible I am trying to push them to fast.. barrel twist of 20. Hornady xtp's shoot great..Thanks for any comments on this mystery to me..

[Ed_Shot]

What's the diameter of your commercial boolits?

[ohen cepel]

How fast are you pushing them? Load data may help.

Make of bullets? Someone here may know their hardness.

[Castaway]

Bet you’ve got one with micro-groove rifling. Look at the muzzle to confirm

[Martin Luber]

They boolets are possibly a) undersize, b) moving too slow to stabilize c) barrel is leaded from previous undersize boolets therefore unable to stabilize d) damaged, inconsistent boolet bases , and a couple more l can't immediately recall. Good luck

[243winxb]

Load 8 grs of Unique and test.. Bullet minimum diameter .430" the standard.

Are the keyhole bullets plain base or Gas checked?

Most likely, the bullets are to small in diameter and/or to soft and skidding.

[GhostHawk]

Every time I have had key-holing bullets and shotgun patterns. Going with a large enough bullet has solved the problem.

Two of those were 9mm theoretically .356 and key-holing stopped totally at .359.

Pushing a bullet too hard can also aggravate the problem.

So all my 9mm's shoot .38special cast boolits now. No more keyholes, no more shotgun patterns. Mostly those are shot with 3 grains of Red Dot.

[Hannibal]

Too little information here to offer any advice. What are your specifics?

[TjB101]

Bet you’ve got one with micro-groove rifling. Look at the muzzle to confirm

What does one look for to make that determination?

[BK7saum]

Bet you’ve got one with micro-groove rifling. Look at the muzzle to confirm

When did Henry use microgroove rifling? I thought that was strictly a Marlin innovation?

[Castaway]

Not sure if the years Henry used microgroove rifling but the rifles pop up occasionally. To determine if you have one of the rifles, look at the muzzle and count the lands and grooves. Not sure of how many, but non microgroove will only have around 6 or less of each. As mentioned by 243winxb and GhostHawk, if that’s the case, a larger bullet is the answer. Microgroove barrels can shoot cast accurately, but bigger bullets are needed. Hard cast bullets are still lead and I’ve yet to see them work unless oversized. Powder coating still is soft and won’t help, although it would be interesting if someone could test two coats and see how that does.

[waksupi]

Keyholing usually mean bullets are undersized.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Slugged the bore to times got .429 dia.. this is a Henry 44 mag. Bullets 200 to 240 grain. At 25 yards they keyhole. Commercial bullets. Hardness,not sure.. is it possible I am trying to push them to fast.. barrel twist of 20. Hornady xtp's shoot great..Thanks for any comments on this mystery to me..

Must be a new Henry, as they just started the 1:20 twist thing in the last 2 years.
Commerical bullets are typically hardcast (96-2-6) and are usually sized to .429
The Henry should have a barrel groove dia of .431 per SAMMI specs.

as Waksupi says "Keyholing usually mean bullets are undersized."
More to that, Hardcast undersized bullets even more so! ...as a softer alloy is likely to obturate and solve that problem.

I realize you said you slugged your bore and got .429"
Are you "SURE" of your technique?

[JoeJames]

Posted this before, but it still startles me. All 44 Specials: first target with store bought HSM Cowboy loads with 240 grain SWC's (note the prefect keyhole in the upper right, and the size of the group in general) and followed up with Speer .430" 240 grain swaged SWC's on 6.8 grains of Unique, and second target with Oregon Trail .431" 240 grain SWC's on top of 6.5 grains of Unique. All shot with the Henry Big Boy 44Special/44 Magnum.

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[Old Caster]

Pull a bullet with an inertia puller and measure it to see if the brass swaged it down. It may no longer be the diameter you think it is which could cause your problem.

[waksupi]

Pull a bullet with an inertia puller and measure it to see if the brass swaged it down. It may no longer be the diameter you think it is which could cause your problem.

Good point, I've had a couple guns I had to seat and crimp in separate steps.

[Dave Pee]

Posted this before, but it still startles me. All 44 Specials: first target with store bought HSM Cowboy loads with 240 grain SWC's (note the prefect keyhole in the upper right, and the size of the group in general) and followed up with Speer .430" 240 grain swaged SWC's on 6.8 grains of Unique, and second target with Oregon Trail .431" 240 grain SWC's on top of 6.5 grains of Unique. All shot with the Henry Big Boy 44Special/44 Magnum.



So Joe, looks like second target has a group of 3 at .9 inches - correct?
I am fighting similar problems with my big boy - cant get 240/430 keith bullets to perform. Back to my old standby, which is 200 rnfp, .431 diameter, 15 gr AA#7.

TNX Dave

[gwpercle]

What does one look for to make that determination?

Typically a cut rifled barrel will have 4 , 5 or 6 equally spaced lands and grooves . (WWII 1903-A3 barrels were made with two grooves and two lands ... for speedy wartime production ) but 4 , 5 and 6 are common and easy to see ... Usual is 4 or 6 ... 5 is odd but not unheard of.
The 44 cal. Micro-Groove barrel has 12 small grooves .062" wide and 12 small lands and is very easy to see when looking at the crown (muzzel) and it seems the bore might be groove dia .4315" with bore dia 4230" at one point in time ... 1960 something , Lord only knows what's used today .... I didn't even know Henry used Microgroove rifling !
Gary

[TjB101]

Typically a cut rifled barrel will have 4 , 5 or 6 equally spaced lands and grooves . (WWII 1903-A3 barrels were made with two grooves and two lands ... for speedy wartime production ) but 4 , 5 and 6 are common and easy to see ... Usual is 4 or 6 ... 5 is odd but not unheard of.
The 44 cal. Micro-Groove barrel has 12 small grooves .062" wide and 12 small lands and is very easy to see when looking at the crown (muzzel) and it seems the bore might be groove dia .4315" with bore dia 4230" at one point in time ... 1960 something , Lord only knows what's used today .... I didn't even know Henry used Microgroove rifling !
Gary

Good to know … thanks for the follow up

Tim

[parson48]

Apologies if this has been mentioned- if, by chance, you are using a Lee factory crimp die, it will squeeze 'em down.

[JoeJames]

So Joe, looks like second target has a group of 3 at .9 inches - correct?
I am fighting similar problems with my big boy - cant get 240/430 keith bullets to perform. Back to my old standby, which is 200 rnfp, .431 diameter, 15 gr AA#7.

TNX Dave

I tried out the Oregon Trail .431" laser cast 240 grain SWC's in part becuase their website indicated they came out with the .431" bullet mostly for Ruger BH's which were bored a bit looser. I figured if it worked for the Rugers in might work for the Henry. And it did. I traded the Henry off even though it was accurate with the .431" because it was too heavy to easily tote around the woods. 8.5 pounds with the Henry vs. 5 pounds with my new Rossi R92 in 44 Magnum. BTW not long after I got the Rossi, I got in a Lee .430" 240 double cavity mold, and the Rossi is quite accurate with them as well as the Oregon Trail .431".

[Dave Pee]

I knurled a handful of the keith bullets that I have had no luck with. Definately increased the diameter. I will try them shorty, if the rains hold off.

[Dusty Bannister]

Dave, that could be interesting. Just filling the hole may not be as effective as actually plugging the hole though. Gas leaking by and gas cutting is going to increase the leading factor.

[Dave Pee]

First test of knurled bullets looks encouraging - they hit the steel target, at least! I will load up a few more ... the sun is out now.

I have been scrubbing the bore today, also. Definate leading... I can also put a gas check on these bullets, which should help sealing the bbl. These are MB 240 grain,fyi.

[Dave Pee]

Well, another frustrating range afternoon, in Beautiful North Florida. The MB keith bullets still go wild: could not hit the target at 50 yards, but I did hit the ram which was 2 ft away! 240 gr, 430 dia, light knurling, 15 gr AA7.

My go-to load at least hit the target at 50, 4" for 3 shots: 200 gr rnfp, .431", 15 gr AA7.

Before i throw this Big Boy in the Suwannee River, anybody want it ???

I am sure I will come up with another recipe tomorrow. Maybe a gas check, maybe faster with W296, maybe a big hammer !!

And BTW, I am a good rifle shooter. Using a front rest, with skinner sights on the carbine.

[Castaway]

Dave, sounds like you also could have one of the Marlin barrels. Look at muzzle and count your grooves and let us know

[Dave Pee]

No microgrooves. Looks like 6 groove.

[Castaway]

Good luck with it. The only thing I throw in the Suwannee is a penny as I cross it when I drive to hunt camp for good luck

[oley55]

Different caliber and rifle but similar keyholing issues. I have a 24" Rossi with that sloooow twist of theirs and had horrible keyholing with with a GC'd 185gr WFN boolits over IMR4227. Tried the same with H110/W296 and I consistently get 2" or smaller groups at 100 yards (Marples tang sight and Globe front sight with Lee Shaver inserts). All things being equal (sizing, brass, primers) the only change was the powder.

My point is perhaps, just maybe you need to try a different powder.

[GBertolet]

I agree on using a slower powder. It is quite possible the pressure is too high for the alloy strength of the bullet. Switching to a slower powder, may be all that is needed. Try it, before taking your rifle for a swim in the river.

[Dave Pee]

OK, slower powders: my reading says AA#9 or W296, or Blue Dot are slower, and in my load books. I will try some #9 first, have not used it yet, in the next couple of days.

Thanks!
Dave

I also want to run these thru quik load, see what it says.

[Baltimoreed]

Pushing a bullet too fast will strip the rifling. Will also cause leading. Undersized bullets will not engrave into the rifling. Clean the bore good. Lower your charge to the starting load listed in your manual. Harder bullets or possibly bigger ones would be next to experiment with. And then you could have a lemon. I bought a Cimarron .45colt 1873 with a 30 inch bbl that wouldn’t group no matter what combination of components that I used. It went back to Cimarron in Fredricksberg, Texas and stayed there a year while a bbl was built in Italy, shipped and finally installed. Now it shoots. Good luck.

[oldcanadice]

Henry is super good at handling problems, very fast at handling things, and they pay the freight both ways. NO CHARGE to you whatever. Less than 2 weeks turnaround here.

One of the return categories they have is for accuracy problems and their newer and replacement barrels have a 20" twist. Definitely worth the effort for a change.

Go to their site online, fill out a service request form, and where they want the ammunition data just put in "Everything I have tried." It's totally worth the effort.

[Dave Pee]

The man at the factory did offer to look at the carbine, if I couldnt get good accuracy. If I am still struggling all weekend, I will ship it back.

But on my To-Do list: use 240 gr Pb bullet, with gas check. Powders to try: 22 gr W296; 15 gr BluDot; 18 gr 2400. These all seemed to start the bullet slower (from QuickLoad), but still get up to 1500fps or so.

Did a unintentional bore plug - with a squib load! Not a great example, but I measured lands at .426, grooves at .430. That implies that all the different bullets should spinning fine ???

[waksupi]

The man at the factory did offer to look at the carbine, if I couldnt get good accuracy. If I am still struggling all weekend, I will ship it back.

But on my To-Do list: use 240 gr Pb bullet, with gas check. Powders to try: 22 gr W296; 15 gr BluDot; 18 gr 2400. These all seemed to start the bullet slower (from QuickLoad), but still get up to 1500fps or so.

Did a unintentional bore plug - with a squib load! Not a great example, but I measured lands at .426, grooves at .430. That implies that all the different bullets should spinning fine ???

Try some .432's.

[Dave Pee]

I just ordered 432 sizer from Lee. And ... found a stash of ranch dog bollits that are about 432 ! Will try those right now!

[Dave Pee]

"But on my To-Do list: use 240 gr Pb bullet, with gas check. Powders to try: 22 gr W296; 15 gr BluDot; 18 gr 2400. "

No go on all 3 loads. One keyholed, all were lucky to hit the black at 50 yards. .432 Ranch Dog bullets.

Back to the factory.

[Old Caster]

You are installing .432 bullets in your cartridges but are they the same after they come out of the cartridge. Inertia pull one and see what it is. I had some 9mm loads swaging from .358 all the way down to .351 and they keyholed out of an accurized Beretta 92FS that had a custom .356 barrel.

[JohnH]

Not sure if the years Henry used microgroove rifling but the rifles pop up occasionally. To determine if you have one of the rifles, look at the muzzle and count the lands and grooves. Not sure of how many, but non microgroove will only have around 6 or less of each. As mentioned by 243winxb and GhostHawk, if that’s the case, a larger bullet is the answer. Microgroove barrels can shoot cast accurately, but bigger bullets are needed. Hard cast bullets are still lead and I’ve yet to see them work unless oversized. Powder coating still is soft and won’t help, although it would be interesting if someone could test two coats and see how that does.

Powder coated and waterdropped is the only way 2 9mm pistols, 1 High Point Carbine and 1 300 Black Out AR I have will shoot cast. The three 9mm's will keyhole every 3rd or fourth boolit. The 300 never keyholes but groups are never under 3" at 50 yards. Powder coating and water dropping from the oven solves all this. I went to copper clads in those because I don't shoot them enough to justify the time and energy to cast and powder coat for them. Tradition lubing is fast enough for my needs.

For OP, boost your boolit diameter, shoot for .431/.432. Edit, Also go to NOE and order a .434 x .430 expander plug, youll have to have a Lee Universal Flaring Die to use this but it makes a solid world of difference and don't use a Lee Factory Crimp Die.

[Dave Pee]

Hey - I finally found this older thread...

Henry put on a new bbl for me, and now the carbine shoots just about anything! Seems to like 21 gr of w296. This works well with 240 gr XTP bullet, or a ranch dog 265 bullet, with gas check.

First accuracy test was 5 rounds at 50 yards; about 1" group!

[oley55]

Dave, that's good news and great that Henry stepped up. I have a Rossi R92, 44mag with 24" barrel who's bore is very generous. So generous that it needs .434" cast boolits. Unfortunately a loaded round is too fat to pass between the load gates. (you have no idea what a pain it is to try and get a too fat wedged round out of there.) I contacted Rossi and they said their guns are manufactured for jacketed ammo... A BS response to be sure. My Rossi R92 in 357mag loves cast.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Hey - I finally found this older thread...

Henry put on a new bbl for me, and now the carbine shoots just about anything! Seems to like 21 gr of w296. This works well with 240 gr XTP bullet, or a ranch dog 265 bullet, with gas check.

First accuracy test was 5 rounds at 50 yards; about 1" group!

Oh, that's great news. I love to hear this kind of Henry feedback. a couple years ago, they fixed my 41 mag BBS (replacing inner parts) and turnaround was quicker than expected.
I assume they installed a 1:20 twist barrel, did you check that?
also have you slugged it? Is it .431 or .429 ?

[Dave Pee]

"I assume they installed a 1:20 twist barrel, did you check that?
also have you slugged it? Is it .431 or .429 ?"

I have not looked at it - and dont plan to. "Never look a gift horse in the mouth !"

[W.R.Buchanan]

One other tidbit I didn't see mentioned is that .44 Magnum Rifle barrels are not .429 they are .431+/- .002. This is done to cope with pressure which has no place to bleed off like in a Revolver. Once the breech is closed everything must go out the muzzle.

This is SAAMI Spec for Rifle Barrels.

Randy

[Dave Pee]

One other tidbit I didn't see mentioned is that .44 Magnum Rifle barrels are not .429 they are .431+/- .002. This is done to cope with pressure which has no place to bleed off like in a Revolver. Once the breech is closed everything must go out the muzzle.

This is SAAMI Spec for Rifle Barrels.

Randy

That is very interesting - Thanks Randy!

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

One other tidbit I didn't see mentioned is that .44 Magnum Rifle barrels are not .429 they are .431+/- .002. This is done to cope with pressure which has no place to bleed off like in a Revolver. Once the breech is closed everything must go out the muzzle.

This is SAAMI Spec for Rifle Barrels.

Randy
Is it though?
That isn't the normal practice of 357mag or 41mag or 45colt.

I only asked Dave Pee to slug his, because I am wondering what Henry is currently doing. I have asked the same question to a couple people who have bought a Henry 44 mag that has been manufactured in the last 18 months...and have gotten the same answer that Dave Pee gave me :(

[charlie b]

Had to go look it up. SAAMI does not list separate information for .357mag in rifles, or .38spl.

There is also no listing for the .44-40 in pistols, only in rifles. Same for the .38-40 and .32-20.

The .44mag has listings as rifle and pistol and the bore is different. I did not see any reasons for this in the documents.

[gwpercle]

I wonder what happened to the OP ... He has a problem with key holes in his Henry , then evaporates ... Catkiller man .... Where Y'at !
Gary