Best Way to Start?

[Dsltech1]

I think I’m finally ready to take the plunge into muzzleloading. Looking for some newbie pointers. I read the “my first sticky” and got a few things out of it. I wonder if there’s any changes in rifle choice since then. Deer hunting is probably all I’ll use the rifle for other than occasional target practice.

What’s a good rifle that won’t break the bank for a newbie to give this black powder thing a shot? Ideal caliber?

Is there a benefit to loose powder over the pelletized powder?

I’d like to cast for it. I know to use pure or close to pure lead. What’s an ideal mold? I imagine caliber will be a factor here, but round or minie?

[LAGS]

A .50 cal would be good for Deer.
It is also fun and reasonably inexpensive for target shooting.
Now as far as a rifle recommendation , are you looking for a New Rifle , or settle for a used one in good shape.
I like the Older Thompson Center Hawkins and Renegades.
But I also have several others like the Lyman GPR and some Traditions.
If you are looking for a New inexpensive Starter Rifle.
You can't go wrong with a "Traditions " like one of their Hawkens Styles.
I prefer Loose powder and make my own.
But I do keep some Pyrodex just for a back up.
Casting your own lead balls isn't hard , and lead can be found at most scrap yards.

[Gofaaast]

I started with a used traditions 54 caliber 25 years ago. 50 cal components are more readably available now just like back then. With the internet age nowadays the road less traveled is still travelled by many so use that to your advantage when purchasing a rifle. If I was going to purchase a new traditional ml today it would be a Lyman 54 Great Plains hunter and a few pounds of ff black powder. If you are purchasing a used smoke pole bring a bore light and make sure your not getting someone’s mistreated junk.

[sharps4590]

For starters, Lyman Great Plains Rifle in 54 cal. I MUCH prefer round ball so before I had a custom Hawken built I had a GPR, not the hunter....but back then they didn't make anything but a GPR.

Skip the pellets and spring for real black powder.

[Sasquatch-1]

Check out your local pawn shops. A lot of times they will take in several rifles in a deal and one of them will be a side lock muzzle loader. In my area everyone wants the in-lines for hunting so the sidelocks can usually be had for a fairly reasonable price. I have picked up a TC percussion gun for $100.00 at a local pawn shop.

[Nobade]

I also recommend a 45 or 50 caliber caplock with a roundball twist. Something simple but effective, shot with real black powder. At this stage of the game guns are a lot easier to find than caps or powder. You might want to start accumulating those before worrying too much about a rifle since you know you'll use them no matter what.

[Adam Helmer]

Welcome to the muzzle loading club! The BEST way to start is to buy the Lyman Blackpowder Handbook and read it cover-to-cover before you load up a ml.

We all began once upon a time. Read and fully understand the process before you go shoot. Asking questions here regarding your reading of the Lyman Book will render thoughtful replies from many smart guys.
Be Well.

Adam

[Wayne Smith]

Here in Virginia the minimum caliber for deer is .45. Check your state regs so you know your state limits. I never intended to shoot deer in it but I ordered my flintlock in .40 for a small caliber, but when I did that the state minimum was .50. If I hand known the state was going to change the minimum would I have ordered a .45? Probably. I already have a Lyman Great Plains in .50 so that was covered.

[Soundguy]

It's hard to beat a kit. Price wise. Check this one out in the 300$ range
https://www.farmandfleet.com/products/1073564-tc-impact-50-cal-muzzleloader-starter-kit.html

50 cal is nice.. Watch the ignition style.. Some states don't allow 209 primer ignition for primitive season.
Past that..pyrodex..and go. I prefer prb vs plastic sabot slugs myself.. Plastic is harder to clean.

[mooman76]

What are you going to hunt will determine size. 50 is good enough for deer but anything bigger, I'd go 54 or 58. Also do you want traditional style or a newer inline? I'd also go with a good used one if you aren't going to shoot much except hunting and a little extra. Powder is better than pellets. Cheaper and you can tailor your loads. Pellets you are stuck with the pellet size. Also pellets can be a little harder to light. They are more for inlines. The style of rifling (twist rate and depth) can dictate whether you gun does best with conicals or RBs. Like someone stated, get a good BP book and read it cover to cover. It will inform you allot so you know better what to look for.

[Wayne Smith]

First decide if you want to go traditional of modern. Sidelocks are traditional, in-lines are much more modern. If you decide to go modern look at Knight rifles. If you want to go traditional I would suggest a Lyman Great Plains, 60+ inch rifling for round balls, because they are adequate and more flexible that boolits. Round balls use cloth around them so you don't absolutely need pure lead either. If you choose traditional learn to shoot roundballs, most people enjoy it. If you don't like it Lyman has a replacement barrel with 48" rifling for bullets or sabots that you can simply drop in. This will be your most flexible combination for the least amount of money. It is easy to switch barrels, as you clean your barrel after shooting you can switch barrels as easily as putting the original back in. What I mean is to clean the barrel you will take it out of the stock - it's designed to do it that way. You can put either back in, it is literally that easy.

[Adam Helmer]

Guys,

You provided much help, BUT the newby NEEDS to read the Lyman Black Powder Manual cover-to-cover because there are NO "Micro Waver able Smarts" in handling Muzzle Loaders.

Too many folks want QUICK answers when they NEED to read and study. I am still studying as I age.

Adam

[Soundguy]

That's why I suggested a kit... It has a how to in pamphlet form..and a video resource.

[Edward]

Start with a 54 cal Renegade and a 2 cavity mold (LEE) roundball/R.E.A.L. inexpensive and you will kill stuff using pure . And loose is the only way I use OE Black 2F/3F/and 1 1/2 F . Accuracy is everything and pellets do not give the choice of loading exactly 78 grains or what ever your gun likes .Loose is the only way with side locks and cast boolits/Ed

[Dsltech1]

I ordered the Lyman book this afternoon.

Oklahoma has a minimum caliber of .40. I was thinking .50 since there seems to be plenty of options for it but I wasn’t sure if there would be something better. I haven’t decided on side lock or inline. With the components shortage I’m considering going traditional with a flintlock. Reading the sticky looks like a amber flint lasts 100 shots plus. Still doesn’t solve a powder shortage though.

I was looking around on the traditions website before I started the thread. I kind of like the idea of the kits. Seems like a good way to get familiar with the rifle. I wouldn’t mind used but I don’t think I’ve ever seen any used ones around here. But of course I wasn’t looking at the time either. Also a little concerned I’d end up with someone’s old rifle that was used and abused. If I’m not mistaken, the barrel needs to be finished on the kits correct? Seems like I read a thread about that awhile back.

[LAGS]

I am currently finishing up a Traditions .32 Crockett Rifle kit for my wife.
I also have built a Traditions St Louis Hawkens in .50.
Both kits were pretty nice and easy to build.
The barrel does need to be blued or browned.
But it isn't that hard , with either Cold Bluing or Browning liquid.
I build these kits and add my own touches to them.
Like on the Crockett Rifle I added a Hinged brass patch box and soldered a brass Dragonfly to the lid since my wife likes dragonfly's.
The Hawken stock was Licktenburg Fractural burnt to dress it up and looks like it has lightening all over the stock.
There is a picture of the St Louis Hawkens posted for me by a friend in a thread I did about a Pedersoli 32 Cub rifle

[megasupermagnum]

When it comes to the cheap flintlocks, the Lyman, Traditions, CVA, and even many Thompson Centers, I'd just avoid them. If you know what to look for, there are variations that do work ok, but the majority of them are flint smashers.

For a percussion gun, I absolutely love the Thompson Center Hawken and Renegade. If you look around, you can get them for a fair price, say $300, and for that, they are one solid piece of machinery.

Yes you can get 100 shots from a flint, but there's a lot that goes into that. You first need a lock with perfect geometry, something you won't find on a factory built gun. Then you need a good flint, some just break, it is a rock afterall, and you never know until you try it. You also need to maintain the edge with knapping, as well as making sure it is always positioned correctly, and not slipping in the jaws. I think a more realist number is going to be 25 to 50 shots per flint. My TC renegade flintlock with the old lock could turn a flint into shards in maybe 8 shots. If you want a TC flintlock, make sure you research the two lock generations. You want the new one with a blued lock, and has the taller cock without the cutout. The earlier version was color case hardened, and had a distinct hump on the back. About the only other reasonable option is to buy the L&R lock for around $175, possibly more now.

Unfortunately I do not know of anyone who offers a way to build a flintlock for less than an arm and a leg. If you really want one, I really think the best value you will ever find is a Kibler kit, either the southern mountain in 45 caliber, or colonial in 54 or 58 caliber. These run in the $1000 range, but are somewhat customizable, and super easy to put together.

Being as you only intend on deer hunting, you might want to wait on a flintlock. Looking at both percussion and inline from a purely practical point, both 209 primers and #11 caps are equally hard to find right now. You can find them now and again, but you have to take what you can get. If anything though, you can find muzzleloader specific 209's, but they do cost quite more. Before this shortage, #11 caps were slightly more expensive than 209 primers. I paid about $4.50 per tin of 100 2 years ago. At the same time, and the same place, I bought shotgun 209 primers for $3.20 per 100 pack. At the same time, I didn't buy them, but a Muzzleloader 209 was around $9 per 100 pack. It's hard to tell how things will be after this shortage. Now you can buy something called a Magspark, which replaces the nipple on a sidelock so it will fire 209 primers. Some use these with great success. I personally found them slow, and hard to handle. That cap is tiny. It used to be you could buy a #11 cap breech plug for most inlines, but that has not been the case for a while. Any new inline I know of is a 209 primer only deal for the most part. I've seen custom options for rifle/pistol primers, and even primed 25 acp cases.

While some have used pellet powder in a sidelock, it's usually not the more reliable setup ever. Often people do something like a 10gr booster charge of blackpowder, then the pellets. Seems like a lot of work to me. Blackhorn 209 powder suffers the same fate. By comparison, most new inline will handle both powders great. That said, pellet powder doesn't offer any adjustability. If your rifle doesn't shoot good with 2 pellets, then you are SOL, nothing you can do about it. BH 209 is loose powder, and it is good powder, but it does cost a lot. 777 pellets are very expensive too. I don't think I've seen Pyrodex pellets anymore. There's a plethora of other powders out there, but the only two subsittues you really need to think about are Pyrodex and 777, and there are a couple variations of each. For Pyrodex, I'd only bother with RS. With 777, I think it comes in both 3fg and 2fg, and it's worth trying both. There's also a number of real blackpowders out there, but you are about a month too late for the only American made blackpowder left, Goex. You might be able to still find some, but it's slim pickings. Instead, it might be time to take a look at Swiss powder, and FFg would be where I'd start.

Ignoring the cosmetic issues, the most dramatic difference between every inline today and most sidelocks is the barrel. I'm not aware of an inline built in the last 15 years that doesn't have a fast twist rate of around 1:28, and shallow rifling. They are built purely to shoot plastic sabot rounds, and conical bullets. You can sometimes get them to shoot a patched round ball, but I've found it tricky. On the other hand, a lot of sidelocks are slower twists, and slightly deeper rifling. The TC's are 1:48, but are still not very deep rifling. They do quite well with a patched round ball though, and they also can shoot conical bullets quite well.

I'll tell you what I would do today if I were back to square 1, no muzzleloaders, looking for a fun deer gun that I could also target shoot. I'd find a Thompson Center Hawken 50 caliber percussion gun with a horrible bore, but mechanically sound. I'd try and get it for $150 if I could. I'd then send the barrel to Bobby Hoyt for another $150, and have it rebored to a 54 caliber with deeper rifling of a slower twist like 56:1 or 66:1.

[GregLaROCHE]

I was lucky because at my shooting club a lot of people shoot muzzle loaders and I was able to try different types and calibers. If you have the chance to shoot some, do it. Most people I know are happy to give someone, who is looking to get in the sport, a try.

[indian joe]

Guys,

You provided much help, BUT the newby NEEDS to read the Lyman Black Powder Manual cover-to-cover because there are NO "Micro Waver able Smarts" in handling Muzzle Loaders.

Too many folks want QUICK answers when they NEED to read and study. I am still studying as I age.

Adam

I started with Sam Fadalas "complete blackpowder ..........." and a CVA kit I put together ...............(1988)
better than the lyman I thought at the time - dunno whether its still available?

[waksupi]

Keep an eye out here. Sometimes you can find a good deal.

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?board=7.0

[Dsltech1]

LAGS: I looked at the pic. Those look great!

So a t/c renegade under $300 would be a good deal I assume? I’m looking at a couple on gunbroker. Both are 54 cal. One looks like bubba added a Lyman sight and poorly cut the stock. The other looks great in the pics.

I imagine I’ll be more vested in the hobby if it gets to this point but just in case, if I was to hunt black bear would a 50 still be sufficient or would a 54 be more suitable? Would something larger than those be required?

[mooman76]

50 would do it but I'd go with the 54 for the extra edge. Deer it's fine but they don't usually come after you when you shoot them.

[Baltimoreed]

Check your state ml hunting laws. Some only allow traditional rifles, others don't care. Check the minimum caliber too. Then decide if you want modern or traditional, if you really want a challenge get a flintlock. My first was a .45 longrifle that I built, next was a .58 hawken that morphed into an underhammer. Killed a number of deer with it then. Minimum caliber for me would be a .50. Good luck.

[Wayne Smith]

If you want a flintlock I would suggest you get a caplock first, simply because a good flintlock is expensive. Finding a caplock right after hunting season is likely and that gives you all winter and spring and summer to learn to use it well and accurate.
He already stated that .40 in minimum for deer in his state. If you intend to hunt bear with one I would get a .58 caliber and always hunt with someone else because if you wound one you will not have time to reload! Same goes for boar - which are actually more dangerous to the hunter than a bear.

[Soundguy]

Imho... I'd carry a walker loaded to 60 grains with some .454's over top... For close encounters...

[lbrowning]

Check out Dixie Gun Works for their rifle kits. I've built two Pedersoli rifles, one caplock Hawken and a flintlock scout rifle. These are level one, mostly light wood shaping and finishing and brass polishing. Both are good shooters and were a lot of fun to build. Best of luck!