Ok got a martini cadet action and a 1:8 twist barrel coming. Suggestions?

[barrabruce]

Any suggestions or what to get it chambered for?
Thinking a short by 100 thou 300 blkout rimmed using 357mag cases or a 30-20.

My go to powder is bullseye.
Thinking 30-20 may struggle with 180+ grn cast plainbase.
Short rimmed blk not so much.
Prolly end up with the Lee soup can or a 150 fp for most uses and I do love my Pope 180 grn bullet thou.
Speed would be around speed of sound nothing spectacular needed.

I would most likely have to have a free bore with a 100 thou to get the bullets in the case mouth .
Even if I had just the width of a gas check to hold them I would be happy.

This may end up with a 25" barrel sudo rookish thing or handy dandy 17" carbine .
Time will tell.

Thoughts?

[Jedman]

I have a break action single shot rifle chambered in a rimmed 300 blk out shortened by .060. I did the shortening to make a standard blk out unable to chamber and close the action because it is built on a aluminum receiver with a shotgun sized firing pin and low pressure loads are required to keep primer flow into the firing pin hole in the standing breech from locking up the action after firing.
I took the .060 off the bottom of the sizing die and that small amount doesn’t change the cartridge base diameter at all. The one problem is I used a barrel with 1- 10 twist that will not stabilize any bullets longer than most 150 gr. as they are only shot at approximately 900 FPS but 300 blk out reamers all have long leades and freebore to allow very long bullets.

A cadet action would allow you to use most cartridge up to the size of a 30-30 but the firing pin would need to be bushed for higher pressures.
1-8 twist may not be cast boolit friendly, I don’t know as I never tried it ? With the rimmed blk out the only reason I see that you would shorten it would be to use 357 mag brass as 360 DW brass can be used to form the full length cartridge but is much harder to find, maybe non existent in Australia ?
The 32-20 would work if you lengthened the throat for your 180 gr. Pope bollit and if your going to use mostly bullseye for the propellant then a larger case wouldn’t do much for you as you would most likely be only using a very small amount of it.
I would go with whatever is the easiest to get brass for especially if this is to be mostly for targets and plinking.

Jedman

[pietro]

.

My dream gun for deer hunting was a Cadet-sized Martini, bored out or re-barreled & chambered for the .256 Winchester Magnum, but could never find a suitable action (or the $$ ;) )

[Texas by God]

Pietro, what is a .356 Winchester Magnum? I always wanted a Cadet in .32 WCF but never found it.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[M-Tecs]

Pietro, what is a .356 Winchester Magnum? I always wanted a Cadet in .32 WCF but never found it.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

My guess is it's a typo for the 256 Win Mag. https://gunsmagazine.com/our-experts/the-256-winchester-magnum/

[pietro]

.

Yeah, a typo - fat fingers & not enough coffee today...…. Thanks for picking up on it. :)

[Bad Ass Wallace]

How about a "classic" chambered for 25/35 Winchester?


https://i.imgur.com/N4kf3sV.jpg

[Baltimoreed]

290799
Had one in 357 mag and it was a good shooter, I didn’t like the look though wanting a military Cadet. Eventually found one almost as issued for a decent price except it having had a .32-20 chamber reamer run into the chamber. Doh. But with a little creative reloading I’m shooting and enjoying the old gal. A great s/s rifle.

[barrabruce]

I enjoy my 0.310 cadet as is and won’t change it from original.
I put a 7a ph peep on it but left the rear sight base alone so it can be changed back.

I have 30 cal moulds so it is prudent for me to utilise them.
The 32-20 could be shortened when necks fail for use as 0.310 cases.
No extractor work needed.
Custom reamer or d bit would have to be made/sourced.

The shortened rimmed 300 blk out could be cut and used with normal dies and reamer making things simpler.
Dan Wesson brass is rare and if I bought 357max cases I would rather make it into a 30 Wesson as the brass is not cheap.
38 special brass is actually dearer than 357mag at the moment and be sourced easy enough.
If I kept the pressure low at 34k psi I thing the gun and brass would appreciate it more.
It would stop someone running factory blkout brass in it.
I could load it to 30 carbine levels or 150’s at 15-1600fps.

The 25’s be good for up to goats and probably rabbits would come out nicer with the 25 cal.
25 Jeffries maybe one

I’m a bit worried about 300 blk in the cadet as being rimless light charges of fast powders could cause head space issue.
I’m not sure if this would happen or not.
I have seen a 223 in a cadet with a normal looking extractor.
The shells just pushed in and the extractor closed and ejected like any other case.
I don’t know the load he was using but it virtually fell out when fired.

[Jedman]

I would forget about any cartridge case that is rimless with the martini action. Bob Snapp use to make a rimless extractor and maybe others as well but he is gone now and they are hard to find and there are plenty of rimmed cartridges that will cover the range of a gun with a 3/4” dia.
barrel shank.

What happened to the 1 - 8 twist barrel ?

Jedman

[barrabruce]

It’s coming jedman.
This week I hope.

No one suggested a 32s&w.
Or short 0.310 or 32-20 case.
Small case large expansion ratio in a long barrel 25" could be quiet.
The 1:8 could be a bit quick for it thou.
Ha
I shot a 9mm bergara short break open gun at the range and thought it would ‘ could be a handi little package as well.
Modern 0.310 cadet with a 120 grn bullet.
Seemed pretty accurate at 50 yards offhand.

Still humming and harring.

Maybe one of each :veryconfu one of everything [smilie=w:

[john.k]

The whole point of 300Blk,and other subsonic guns is no sonic crack noise with a silencer......now seeing as such attachments are illegal here ,all you have is very low velocity gun with a rainbow trajectory.

[barrabruce]

True John very true.
Still rather shoot plainbase bullets thou, fiddle farting around at the range
The 30 on a 357 mag which everyone has done some sort probably is the case for the cadet.
Easy to make.
Load it up for pigs and goats if need be.
30-30 I really don’t know if it would be the case for a pencil thin long barrel in the cadet.
My shoulder is twitching from the thought of that narrow steel butt plate.
Could always down load it till the flinching stops and then load it back up for the few shots need for hunting.
Ha.

[Mike H]

Another cartridge to consider would be the 30 Badger.

[barrabruce]

Yep that could be good to but I would have to buy two sets of dies to make the 30 badger.
Hmmm
I was playing with a Bertram 0.310 case and a 0.309" -0.310" boolit fits in lovely without any tools needed.
Yes my mind is definitely boggling at the moment.
Ha

[barrabruce]

Well decided on a 30-357 mag case thingo.
By the time all the stuff arrives and I can get it to the local gun plumber, it maybe after the new year some time.
If I can get a 150 grn at @ 1500 fps be good enough for a light stalking gun.
Small game 120’s 22 lr velocities or 1800 fps.

I have a 30-30 if I want to shoot further/bigger stuff.

The mozzies seem bigger than usual this year thou.
291140

[martinibelgian]

Shooting a 30-20 BSA martini with a 1 in 12 twist barrel, shoots the 174gr pope bullets just fine with BP, so pretty much subsonic. However, the go-to bullet is a 152gr round nose. Can be scarily accurate if you get the cleaning routine right.

[pertnear]

.

My dream gun for deer hunting was a Cadet-sized Martini, bored out or re-barreled & chambered for the .256 Winchester Magnum, but could never find a suitable action (or the $$ ;) )
Here is mine. I'm just starting to work up loads. I luv this little rifle & cartridge & I'm amazed by the accuracy. I never thought of the the .256 WM as a deer cartridge but I have an uncle with a Marlin .256 & he always gets his deer. It certainly is accurate enough! (BTW: I hate that one flyer!)
291276
291277

[John Taylor]

I have been all over the place in calibers collected over the years so when I got a good deal on a Cadet action with wood I made it into. 32 S&W with an octagon barrel.

[Bigslug]

If the impossible happens and I ever shoot out my .32-20 Kinda-Sorta on cast bullets, it'll get re-barreled to straight up .357 Magnum and eat what my handguns do.

[beltfed]

Bigslug,
You will not regret going to the 357Mag for your Cadet.
I love mine. Get a 14 twist barrel..
beltfed/arnie

[barrabruce]

Well my 300 blk dies come and I have bought some brass.
Machined off 70 thou off the fls die.
The mag brass can just fit in the base of the die now.
But I can use the seating die to start the process if needed.

Still waiting for a case holder but using the vice I have reformed a few cases.
I want to keep the neck full length for cast bullets.

I will have to sort out that depth with the reamer if it ever comes to see what it needs to be.


So far things are starting to come together as planned.

The 310 rock may come into fruition yet.

If things go south the barrel can be always chopped back and re - chambered.

[John Taylor]

You may need to bush the firing pin when going to a higher pressure round.

[Jedman]

barrabruce, I don’t mean to insult you as I know you hav done these things before but I just thought I would mention, when you make some dummy cases with your 357 brass remove the rim on a couple to use as a gauge when you ream your chamber. Basically if you are forming the brass and getting a good full formed shoulder you want to set the headspace close off of the shoulder on your dummy shells.
Being you will be making the rim recess with a lathe bit instead of the reamer cutting it , I would do that last.

I found on my 256 Win mag chambers that I reamed them with a factory reamer and stopped as soon as the rim recess was just a smidge past flush with the breech face with the brass I was using. Then after firing some new formed cases that were sized with RCBS dies and comparing the fired cases to just sized cases I could see with my eye that the shoulder on the fired cases looked forward of just sized.
So I took a couple of resized brass and turned the rims off and used them to check my chamber and found that when the rimless dummy cases were in the chamber where the case shoulder was the bottom of the case was .010 deeper than the breech face.
So the reamer manufacturer cut the reamer to their standard and RCBS was to a shorter standard by .010 so now when making new brass or resizing fired cases for that chamber I need to set the sizing die with a .009 feeler gauge between the shell holder and the bottom of the die and be able to pull the feeler out with quite a bit of resistance while holding the ram on the press as high as it will go.
I have made Many wildcat cartridges the same way by shortening a standard sizing die to where the base is the correct size for the brass I want to use then make a couple of dummy cases to use to set headspace.

Jedman

[Antietamgw]

[QUOTE=Jedman;5294739]barrabruce, I don’t mean to insult you as I know you hav done these things before but I just thought I would mention, when you make some dummy cases with your 357 brass remove the rim on a couple to use as a gauge when you ream your chamber.

Jedman,
Thanks for posting that. I'm soon going to cut a chamber for a shortened rimmed Blackout. That's a handy tip to confirm that the shoulder in the chamber is where you want it.

[blackbahart]

291533
the version of my 300BO rimmed I built last year on a martini using 360 DW brass which is 1.4" long with a gain twist barrel
pic of cases

[barrabruce]

Thankyou jedman yeah I can see that clearly.
No offence here.
I like all opinions.

If 360 Dan Wesson brass was more common here I could just use that.

I think by having it done a bit short will stop someone from chambering high pressure blkout rnds in the rifle.
I’m not sure how much of a difference in case capacity it will be.

I think 30 badger loads would be o.k.
I have some 30-20 load data so that could be a starting point.
A couple of 30 Paxton loads as well for adi 2205 and adi 2207.
Not trying to duplicate the blkout with 50k psi loads or anything ridiculous like that.

[slug]

I have a Cadet reformed to .357 and it works OK.
The round has to go straight into the chamber, but the lever wants to close a bit from full open.
I have to hold the lever full open with my pinkie to start the round with my thumb.
It's a little awkward with my small and arthritic hands, but still do-able.
A bottle neck cartridge would be easier.

Several decades back, I was told that It's quite easy to modify the rifle so it stays fully open, but I can't recall the details.
I'll have to Google it.

[brstevns]

A few years ago a local Gunsmith turned my Cadet into a nice 223Rem. Said he had a heck of a time on the extractor but he got it figured out and it runs great.

[barrabruce]

291714

Best I can do at the moment.

Waiting for stuff still.

Wistfull thinking mode still.

Obviously the 32-20 case is the magnum.

The 310 Ackley Improved magnum ought just burn up the country side.

Be good for poleaxing big pigs at least 200 barstool paces..

Think I’m making a rimmed wildcat of a rimless production cartridge; that was a rimmed wildcat originally..

Like 40-50 years ago at least.

Brass and bullets should be around for a while.

I could scrounge up 223 or discarded 300 blk cases and remaster them and use a screw driver to extract if things get real bad.

Ha :lol:

[M.A.D]

.

My dream gun for deer hunting was a Cadet-sized Martini, bored out or re-barreled & chambered for the .256 Winchester Magnum, but could never find a suitable action (or the $$ ;) )

292171 Bullpup Martini in 256..... Loving it

[barrabruce]

MAD
I’ve seen that before.
Have you a picture of how you load it?
Does the top of the butt lift up to load or come off for cleaning.
Nice way to have a long barrel in a short gun if I’m thinking right.

[barrabruce]

Well I got the barreled action back from the gun plumber.
Barrel is 18" long as I thought it would be long enough to not ring my ears with a light load, long enough for full powder burn and nibble enough caring around through some scrub.
Asked him to leave it rough finished so I could smooth it up for bluing.

Not finished at all but I wound a bit of wire around a short fore-end and clamped a red dot to it.
Headed down the range to test it out.
Not real light but not to shabby either
292719
Short forend
292720
Full length fore-end.
Playing with bluing
292721
Looks something like this in it’s post apocalypse dressing at present.
292722

It shot well.
Light little wand really.
I could hit a coke can pretty well off hand at 50 yards.
I had about a 4" group of different loads and bullets.
Checked for base of case swelling with a mic and length with a vernier.
More positive playing is yet to be done.
The red dot was good a 50 but I had trouble seeing the can to shoot it.
The gun pivots just forward of the trigger and comes up fast .
I may test a long skinny forend on it as it may be better off a rest to shoot for a slower shot.
Scope and or irons to be determined.
Thanks for looking.

[barrabruce]

Well this time I shot some groups and collected some data.
Started off with the Lyman thrower at 1.6 grains and cranked out the top plate till it started to shoot good.
Took a few samples home to weight later.
All these were shot with a red dot at 50 yards and 3 or 4 bullets used.
293009things first got going at 1.9 grains bulleye. Speed unknown.
293010next node seems at 2.6 grns bulleye and the Lee soup can.
#3 node which is about 2930113.2 grns bulleye and 170 gc fp.
is the bees knees so far with the 293012170 gn pbhp
But the 150 hp hunter didn’t like it and some tipping was involved.
293015
I think the point hits the rifling but the base is hang out there in the breeze causing steering problems.
But the ‘ye ‘ol Lyman 241 150 grn pbrn loves it.293014.
Well it was hot and the bullets were slumping if you left them on the dash of the Ute.
I could just about dip lube them in the be/vas lube.
For a gun that needs breaking in and a red dot at 50 yards it shows a lot of promise.

My cast bullets are too soft for gas checked loads, so I may paper patch some up and try some adi 2205 I have.
Pistol powders are scarce and primers are becoming elusive at the moment too.

I may have to make a bullet reforming die if I can figure out how too.
Plus a squillion other tools for loading.
Like a proper straight line seater and such.
Remade a 30 cal Lee die set for it and a primer seating tool, but still using my original 30 cal de primer tool.
293016

All in all not too shabby as things are at the moment.
Barra

[AlanF]

Very nice. What a cool project. Look forward to seeing the finished product.

[Rapier]

357 Super Mag and the 7 TCU have exactly the same case capacity. Can use the same powder, mainly 4227 for cast. The 30x357 Mag should be about 66% H2o capacity and 4227 should work well, as 4227 also works well in the 30-20 with 200g cast.

[barrabruce]

Thanks rapier.
I used an equivalent of adi 2205 at 17.5 grns and 110 jackezed rn and they had no pressure signs and at the web showed no sign of growing and primers showed no high pressure signs.
Extraction was easy.
The zip tie and super glued scope became self rotating so no groupings.

What is the 30-20 200 grn load you use?

I have done a little more work towards the end product and I’ll see how it performs soon I hope.

[barrabruce]

Things have gone off on their own path and some bugs worked out other things to try.
Made a front sight to try , and see if it works or not.
May put a pica tinnyrail on it yet just to make it real ugly.
293704
293705
Need to re-blue but will wait and see first.
May try an extended stepped over the back scope attachment and then I’ll need a pegged cheek piece riser on the stock for a cheek weld.
Never ends.
To many options.
Ha one day I’ll have it sorted.
Just need to cast a few more bullets and finish off the mess I’ve made of it so far and test it out again.
The longer for-end should give me a more solid format for longer range shots then just standing off hand.

[barrabruce]

293811
Well it’s blued.
Finished.
Done.
I’ll see what I can scrape up as in primers and powder and bullets to burn in it and see how it goes with some real loads.
I think I’ll call it my "bubba cadet"
Suitable name in more ways than one.
If I put a full length pic rail on it I can always claim it as some
Strange offspring of a wild party in my gun safe.
When some evil black taticool mall ninja gun came for a stay over for a while.

[Mike H]

Always good to see the job finished,hope you can find enough primers and powder to give it a fair test.The 1-8 twist barrel should be interesting with heavy projectiles.
Hope the New Year goes well for you.
Mike.

[barrabruce]

Thanks Mike.
I made a few pp bullets with some 2205 and 2207 powder to try.
Even lashed out and used some gas checks on a 165 grainer.
@180 is as big as I have at the moment.
See if anyone around here has one of those boolits like pencil stubs to try.

Looks like we could be in for a little weather.
Hope you get all the rain you need down there.
Cheers.
It only has taken me 6-7 years to get it to this stage.
And probably another 35 off and on since I first shot a martini cadet when younger.
Ha.

[Rapier]

Sorry, did not get a notice on the question about the 200 cast and the 30-20. The gun was a Merrill/XL single shot pistol with a 1-10 .308 barrel, 10 inches. Load was 11 grains of H-4227 at 1,306 fps SD 13 fps, 1” at 50 meters. Bullet was a Saeco mold.
Just in case you can use them….
180g RCBS 12.5g H4227 1,432 fps 1” SD 5
165g RCBS 12.5g H-4227 1,533 fps .5” SD 7
150g RCBS 14g H-4227 1,633 fps .8” SD 4

Some loads go from case falling out to stuck case in 1/2 grain increase.

If I recall you folks down under have an equivalent powder.

[barrabruce]

Well last session was a dud.
I did learn however that I cannot focus on a bead or a post or point with a 20" sight radius anymore.
I did make a new bead with a hole in it to use like a globe front sight, higher than my last and Guesstimated how much higher I needed it.
Worked well for me today.
Got it sighted in pretty near and quick.
I was doing O.k. Till I thought I would shoot a beverage container at 50yrds offhand on the ground.
The wind flag was in the way a little so I waited for the wind to change.
After about 4 hits it had moved some and going for 5 in a row I could see the point of the flag near the bottle.
Nah it’ll be right enough room.
Whack the flag went flying.
On inspection at the next cease fire I found I had hit the wire protruding out the wind flag for stability.
The lead sinker was gone and a big bend in the wire.
Who woulda thunk it possible.

Any way back to business.

It’s doing better that I thought it would.
I made a size die that sizes the nose and body in one and use a rod to knock it back out.
That way I can seat cast bullets so it doesn’t go below the neck of the case.
It maybe a bees Willy large as trying to seat longer bullets are hard and the nose is engraved a little much for just a simple plug case and hand seating.
The semi breach seated cases. IE: firm but slip fit in the case seem to allow for deeper and not constant seating depth.
This will need to be fixed.

Any hoo.
After getting it mostly sighted in a few groups using the Lee soupcan and 150 grn 308241 shows there is nothing wrong with the way it wants to shoot.

295069
295070
I have to explain the marked shots.
I had started off with some fixed ammo but ran out and reloaded some more up.
But used the wrong bush in the powder thrower.:roll:

The 150’s at 50 and 100
295071
295072
The flyer at 5 I do not know what I did so I shot another and it went into the group.

The wind died for a while and I sighted in my 120 Lee bullet in at 50yrds
295073
My learning curve on the maths to click ratio needs a little refining to the new sight radius But I’m getting there.
One flyer high but the last 2 or 3 just a little high and a tad left.
I have left it set at that for now.

About as good as I may ever get with open sights in a 5 lb rifle off the elbows and bags off the bench.

If I could have adjusted for the wind well sky’s the limit.

Now just have to find a heavy bullet to try and play with one day.

Note this seems to shoot the heavier bullets to the right more as I go up in weight.
Up and down obviously.
Do you think it could be a bedding issue or do fast twist barrels do that?
I haven’t had this happen to me before.

Thanks for wasting your time reading this.
I’ve had a blast over the last few months playing around with this project.

Fast bullets may prove to be a whole new ball game with this thing as the fast twist may need a different approach than I’m used to.

Such is life.

How hard could it be I thought.
Ha

[barrabruce]

It’s all Jedman’s fault!
He inspired me to do it.
Glad I did.
Getting somewhere with it.
Ness safety bullet at 50 yards.
296187
Hunter 150 at 100 yards.
296188
Very happy with how it’s shooting.
I could use a little refining but looks like I can go forth now and harass the "coke can cartel" or whatever.
:grin:[smilie=w::happy dance:

[school of mines]

Great project! Thanks for the awesome right up. Really enjoyed it!

[rjmelehan]

Bruce,
Would you please let me know where you acquired a barrel blank for your Martini..?
I have a cadet that someone turned into a 32 WS...
which doesn't suite me.
Looking for a new barrel.

Thanks in advance
Bob

[barrabruce]

Bruce,
Would you please let me know where you acquired a barrel blank for your Martini..?
I have a cadet that someone turned into a 32 WS...
which doesn't suite me.
Looking for a new barrel.

Thanks in advance
Bob

I got mine off abusedguns.com I think.
It came up and seemed reasonable at the time.
Most were 30 cal take off barrels that were "good for age " at the time and didn’t appear a half decent buy.
A new one would be 3mths wait at least by one provider and most were out of stock or too expensive for me.

You maybe be able to cut back that chamber to 32 s&w or 32-20 8mm something if you have enough meat left for a 120 grn pill.

It all depends on what you would like to end up using it for I suppose in the end and what you can find.

A few grains of bulleye under a tufted or Dacron and a fitted 120 grain bullet would still shoot nice in it/or 310 performance.
I load my 30-30 like that and it works well for that duty.

Cheers.

[rjmelehan]

Thanks Bruce..!

[Rapier]

I found it fairly easy to find a short 16-17 inch .308 or .358 barrel in the US. Last two I bought were from Gun Parts. A 1” in diameter is plenty enough to work with. You leave 6-9” in front of the shoulder straight to mount REM 541 scope bases on and the forearm to. Taper if you wish, to the muzzle diameter. Turn and thread the shank and then cut the angles for the extractor. When the extractor angles function, cut the new chamber.
The Cadet extractor can be hard to come by in the US. So be careful with an original.
If you can find the dies, the 7mm Super Mag (357 Super Mag (Max) necked to 7mm is a real nice cartridge for the Cadet action).

[barrabruce]

Did a ladder test with some 2205 and 2207 powder the other day.
165 grn rn 311466 gc’ed n speed green.
Some were a bit dodgy, but most were in a cluster of @ 1" at 50 yards.
Will try some at 14.2 gns and see how they fly.
14-1500 fps?
296901
Ironically they shot 3 1/2" low from a lot slower speed sight setting.
Haven’t seen that before.
Anyone have a clue?
Could it be a barrel vibration thing or more of a bedding issue?
Strange.
Well it is left handed ,maybe I put it together upside down.
:cry:
Will have to live with it I suppose.