Over book pressure but no signs

[Wolfdog91]

So worked up a load for my 5.56. According to the book I should be over pressure but none of the 15 odd prices of lake city brass I have show any pressure signs I can tell. No split necks ,no popped primers ,no gas seepage around the primers ,can't even see an extractor mark. Why would this be ?

[johnsonian09]

What Boolit? Coal? What powder?

Edit:also what manual are you using?

For example lyman tests everything with extremely tight chamber tolerances in a test reciever/barrel. Which results in higher pressures at smaller loads

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[Wolfdog91]

What Boolit? Coal? What powder?

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H322 , ( I'm trying to make a replacement load I'm near about out of the powder I usually use and it's kinda hard finding anything else, also I don't have a big stock pile like most ) Hornady 75gr hpbt ( yes 1:7 twist barrel) and I forgot my cbto I'll have to check my notes when I get home but I'm a hair over mag length but I'm still off my hard jam a good bit. Still powder movement to when I shaken em so I'm not compressed it seems

[johnsonian09]

Are u using hornandys manual? It's fairly conservative also, compared to lee or sierra.

Also lake city brass has more case capacity then say pmp or lapua. Which can increase pressure by as much as 5k just switching brass.

They write the books to the lowest common denominator to keep people safe.


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[M-Tecs]

Necks don't split from overpressure. Overpressure is also a SAAMI standard and nothing more in SOME platforms. Flattened or primers blanking are an indicator of possible over pressure. Gas seepage around the primers normally doesn't happen until the primer pocket has loosened. For my Palma loads max pressue is determined by how many loadings I can get before the primer pocket loosens.

You will not see extractor marks due to pressure. If the bolt has a spring plunger ejector you may see marks from pressure.

[dverna]

In over 50 years of reloading, I have never loaded over book maximum. IMO, the gain in velocity is not worth the risks. Give that some consideration as you develop loads. There is a risk/reward evaluation to weigh.

Some powders are temperature sensitive so a load that may look safe at 40* will run at higher pressure at 90*.

[johnsonian09]

Is there a reason you're trying unpublished loads? Are you chronographing your shots?

There's probably no need to go over the bookloads. I use h335 and a 70 grain bullet. It goes a hair under 3000fps. That's plenty of energy for anything the .223 or 5.56 is suitable for killing.

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[reloader28]

Every gun is different and the books are a good guide line.
I have some guns maxed out at about book maxes and some that are way beyond. I have a 338-06 that runs as good and better than 338 win mag. You just have to pay attention to what your doing

[Winger Ed.]

I'd go easy with that for a few reasons.

Maybe the most important is when you try to make a .220 Swift out of a .223/5.56---
it can get real exciting when a receiver lets go.

[reddog81]

Lots of good advice already given. Like mentioned, some books are more conservative than others. Just because you’re past the max load doesn’t necessarily mean you’re over pressure. Using different components can result in higher or lower pressure than what the tester recording the data in the book got.

Additionally you don’t always see pressure signs once you go past the SAAMI max. I always laugh to myself when some says to watch for pressure signs in a cartridge like .38 Special or .45 ACP. If you see pressure signs in either of those rounds it’s because you’re well past double the SAAMI limit.

[megasupermagnum]

I've had more than one rifle, and even handgun shoot their best at "over book" loads. You bet if accuracy keeps getting better, I'm going to keep adding powder, at least up to a point. This depends on the application of course. If you are shooting these from a semi auto rifle, I might be cautious of very strong loads simply for wear and tear on the rifle.

To answer your question, brass and primers are not built to fail right at SAMMI maximum pressures. How could they when every cartridge has it's own pressure maximum? Just because you are not seeing signs of dangerous pressure, does not mean you are not above the 55,000 psi or so that the load data is maxed out at. You could be at 60,000 psi, 65,000 psi, and not show any signs at all. From what I've seen, somewhere in that 70,000 psi range is where you start to see brass pressure signs of extractor groves, or other extrusions, but I'm pretty sure this is unique to each cartridge as well, and probably related to bolt thrust. Each primer had different characteristics. I shoot a lot more handgun than rifle. In a small pistol primer, a Federal 100 will start flattening early, sometimes around 35,000-40,000 psi. The same exact load with a CCI 500 won't show the slightest bit of flattening, and you can go way up before you see flattening with that primer. Along with that, you can take the same exact load, and shoot it in two different handguns, and each will have a different looking primer. At one point I had two SP101's in 327 federal, and with factory ammo one the primer would look brand new except for the firing pin dent, and the other the primer looked flat as a pancake. In that case, it was a matter of headspace. Rifles are bound to have more strict tolerance on headspace, but it is still a factor.

So you can absolutely be above SAMMI pressure without any pressure signs at all. That said, if book max is 22 grains, and 22.5 grains shoots better, and there's no pressure signs, I'd shoot them myself. If it did not shoot better, no way I'd do it for the speed alone.

[Wolfdog91]

Is there a reason you're trying unpublished loads? Are you chronographing your shots?

There's probably no need to go over the bookloads. I use h335 and a 70 grain bullet. It goes a hair under 3000fps. That's plenty of energy for anything the .223 or 5.56 is suitable for killing.

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Powder availability. Usually use what's in the book but good luck trying to find anything right now. Had a good load made up with 8208 but I have like mabye 30rd worth of powder left. Both this h322 like three years ago and never touched it. Saw people used it for .223 and said why not. Stared from 21 grains I think which is what everyone whose tried I read did and worked my way up from there chronographing every thing checking brass ect. Didn't really get the accuracy I wanted though till I went and pushed the envelope. Next thing you know my Lil 16" budget gun is clover leafing @100yd well the three I didn't pull lol ,and it's giving me really good velocity. But I confused me because again wasn't getting any pressure signs like I did with other guns like my Grendel

[Wayne Smith]

Every chamber/barrel combination is different, perhaps microscopally, but different. When you have a chamber/barrel combination that is pushing the standard for large you will get away with more than one that is tight. When you are at this point chrono your loads because there is a direct relationship between pressure and velocity. As long as you are getting the accuracy you want within normative velocity readings you are golden.

[farmerjim]

I am seeing several powders good in a 223 available both on line and Local gun store.
Check around, you may get lucky.

[country gent]

Visual indicators for pressure are sublet to the viewer. they give an idea but by the time you reach that point you are over the pressure limits. primer cups can vary in hardness and strength, again cases vary some maker to maker and batch to batch. sizing dies vary some also. Then the chamber in your rifle may be slightly larger the throat longer ans the leade angle different bore and groove dias also can vary. there are many things that can alter pressure.

Measuring case head at the solid portion just in front of the groove gives an idea of pressure. measure a few factory loads to get the number then your reloads. an increase of the expansion by .0003-.0004 is pushing it.

I understand what and why you are working with this powder. Manuals give the makers best recommendations for a cartridge not all the possibles. 322 may be on the slow side for the 223 and bullet combination. With out book data and published pressures working from other reloaders notes you are in the dark.

[243winxb]

May take up to 5 firings, till the primer pockets get loose. If you make it past 5, pressure should be ok.

[Tripplebeards]

My 4, 243’s all have their BEST accuracy “clover leafing” above book max “suggested” loads with no pressure sign. They are loaded anywhere from .2 to .5 grains over. My bolt guns have clovered to .3” groups at 200 yards with the loads. Most of the powder companies have told me in the past their load data’s are pretty conservative and keep load data 15/20% under max. I do load over max length so there is more room with less pressures. I DO start with minimum suggested load data and work my way up. You just have to watch for casing pressure and signs…but sometimes that’s not always the case. If you go to some of my first posts here I had a Ruger American 450BM I “rattled” it apart from running cast boolits all the way to 460 S&W max loads. The EXACT same action is used in their 300 WSM rated at 60,000 psi. My loads never showed any signs of casing pressures all the way up to max 460 S&W loads but the accuracy was not there. My best accuracy was shooting MOA at 2,200 FPS with a lee 300 grain. The problem was even though I had ZERO casing pressure the gun itself couldn’t handle it. The ejector failed, the magazine kept falling out, the picatinny rail kept loosening up and I wrecked my scope in the process and almost a second till I stopped blaming the rings and looked deeper into the issue. Lastly the bolt stop holes hogged out in the receiver. Ruger was AWESOME and replaced the gun. I’m sure they would not have if they new I pushed it as hard as I did. I upgraded to a gunsite scout which is still sitting NIB. It won’t feed cast just like the American so I haven’t shot it yet. I learned my lesson needless to say on over pressure loads. So even if your load shows no signs of pressure it doesn’t mean your firearm can take the beating. IMO loading A hair over max with no signs of pressure isn’t going to be hard on your firearm isn’t going to hurt anything but pushing like I did with the American 450BM…YES. I learned my lesson. It was an experiment and my first go with cast boolits. In the past I have ALWAYS loaded for best accuracy and not velocity and will continue to do so. I would rather find a load that stacks them all in the same hole. That way I know I’m not going to miss and just have to figure out my drops.

[contender1]

I have a gun I use when I'm teaching handloading that I use as a visual for my students.

It's a blown up Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 Mag.

The books are there for many reasons. The companies use their components, their equipment to test things like velocity & pressure. They work things up using either real guns or test barrels. And they keep stuff within the guidelines of SAAMI specs.
Each company is different.
Every mixing of components are different.
Every gun built is different.
SAAMI specs take into consideration all types of firearms.

A firearm is a mechanical machine. So is a drag racing car. It may run great 10, 15, 20 times etc. Then,, suddenly,, it explodes. The continued use of force upon a mechanical machine may not have a problem at first,, but over time,, it can have an adverse affect.

Elmer Keith,, the grandfather of the .44 Mag,,, did a lot of experimenting with all kinds of calibers, guns & loadings. AND,, he blew up several guns doing so.

There are so many variables in handloading,, that it's hard to know what kinds of pressures you are getting unless you have a pressure strain gauge on your gun. And,, what may be fine in your gun,, may not be fine in another gun. Visual signs you seek may NEVER expose themselves. Yet,, you can build over pressure loads & over stress your firearm.

And yes,, many, many people do load "over book info" to get performance they seek for whatever reasons. The lack of a specific powder, the so-so accuracy,,, the desire to increase velocity,, etc. all have been reasons,, or as I teach,, excuses,, to exceed book info.

AND,, not all over book info is bad for a gun a person may have. As mentioned,, SAMMI specs do reflect a wide spectrum of firearms. And yes,, sometimes,, over book info can be perfectly fine,, in your gun. Just not always in every gun.

When I teach handloading,, I always recommend a minimum of (3) different handloading manuals as a starting point for handloaders. And I strongly suggest they read all 3, and look at the components they are planning on using. I then advise them to try & match the components used to the manual that matches things they have. Next,, I advise them to start low & slowly work up, & not to exceed the book. And then,,, if what they have tried doesn't work as needed,, to take the other books & cross reference information to see if there are any ways they may modify their loads to get better results. We all know that different manuals have different "max" loads listed. But it's the little things that make these different max loads stop where they do. Primers, bullets, seating depth, brass, etc.

To try & answer your question of why you aren't seeing any signs of over pressure isn't simple. Too many variables.

Personally,, I'd advise to not exceed book info,, and start a serious search for the powder you normally use. Or,, start over with different powders, bullet, & primer combos to find the results you seek all while staying within the book info.

I often have started with a firearm,, and handloads,, seeking the best performance,, to where I've experimented with well over 40 different loadings,,,OFTEN,, and even over 80 loads in a few. And while we are all seeing a shortage of components,, it's harder to do that,, it's even harder if you have an issue & get injured or even worse. Safety first.
We all want all gun owners to be safe,, and this includes handloaders.

[DCB]

556/ 223 are different . nato round and commercial.
Both the terms 223 and 556 refer to the caliber of the rifle. The 556 started off as a military cartridge in 1950 and was technically called 556x45mm NATO. However, by the 1960s, Remington decided to release a much similar cartridge, the 223.
the primary issue that comes with these differences is that when firing a 556 NATO cartridge in a rifle chambered for 223 Rem. Due to a more extended throat of the NATO chamber, this combination will cause a 223 chambered weapon to run at 10,000 psi higher than its usual 55,000 psi. This is not safe as this can result in harming the operator or even rifle.
and So came the Wylde chamber.
I would check the calibration on my scale and tread lightly as mentioned above.

[jonp]

Blowing up a Super Blackhawk is a feat I'd not want to replicate seing as to how they are built.
I have a Judge sitting over my bench i wrote a thread about as a reminder to be extra careful and also to never buy another of those things

[jonp]

556/ 223 are different . nato round and commercial.
Both the terms 223 and 556 refer to the caliber of the rifle. The 556 started off as a military cartridge in 1950 and was technically called 556x45mm NATO. However, by the 1960s, Remington decided to release a much similar cartridge, the 223.
the primary issue that comes with these differences is that when firing a 556 NATO cartridge in a rifle chambered for 223 Rem. Due to a more extended throat of the NATO chamber, this combination will cause a 223 chambered weapon to run at 10,000 psi higher than its usual 55,000 psi. This is not safe as this can result in harming the operator or even rifle.
and So came the Wylde chamber.
I would check the calibration on my scale and tread lightly as mentioned above.

Good post and why my AR's are Wyldes

[white eagle]

I never have gone over listed loadings
every rifle has different parameters in loading
unless you are trying to see what yours will take there is no need
to go over book loadings as they have very expensive pressure testing equipment
so you do not blow your gun up
go to Kentucky Ballistics and watch what happens when he shoots a
50 BMG with old over charged ammo

here ya go
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1449kJKxlMQ&ab_channel=KentuckyBallistics,

[Wolfdog91]

I never have gone over listed loadings
every rifle has different parameters in loading
unless you are trying to see what yours will take there is no need
to go over book loadings as they have very expensive pressure testing equipment
so you do not blow your gun up
go to Kentucky Ballistics and watch what happens when he shoots a
50 BMG with old over charged ammo

here ya go
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1449kJKxlMQ&ab_channel=KentuckyBallistics,

Well that was due to him shooting a SLAP sabot round out of a gun with a muzzle break. Basically made a barrel obstruction

[Wolfdog91]

I am seeing several powders good in a 223 available both on line and Local gun store.
Check around, you may get lucky.

Gotta link ? Been trying for close to eight months to find Varget and 8208 or other temp stable powders but no luck

[Larry Gibson]

Over pressure(?) for what?

Your AR is made and chambered for the 5.56 NATO cartridge (yes, some ARs are marked 223 Rem but that is/was simply the commercial designation for the cartridge). When SAAMI adopted the 223 Remington cartridge the MAP was set at 55,000 psi (transducer). Having measured the pressure of several commercial factory 223 cartridges that is what they adhere to. Also, even though SAAMI is a volunteer organization with not all manufacturers belonging, with the advent of SAAMI standards becoming the defacto (because of numerous court cases) "standard" almost all data in the latest manuals adhere to SAAMI standards.

The military does not load any cartridge to SAAMI standards. The U.S. military arsenals [and the commercial firms who load milspec ammunition] load to their own established standards including pressure standards. The current U.S. pressure standard for 5.56 M193 and M855 is 62,300 psi [measured in front of the case mouth which will give a slightly lower pressure than over the chamber as with SAAMI measurements]. Most lots of older M193 (U.S. 5.56 loaded with a 55 gr FMJBT) I have pressure tested run 56 - 59,000 psi as measured in a tight commercial "223 Remington" chamber. With the adoption of the M855 cartridge with its 62 gr FMJBT bullet pressures were increased to 62,300 psi. Such ammunition tested in the same commercial "223 Remington" chambered barrel run 62 - 64,000 psi.

The reason 5.56 can run upwards of 10,000 psi in "223 Remington" chambers is because it is loaded to "upwards of 10,000 psi" more than 223 Remington cartridges.

The Wilde chamber is simply a match chamber with a throat/leade to fit M855 ammunition. Its design had nothing to do with pressure reduction.

The above is based on actual facts and pressure measurements, not hypothetical fantasies. There is so much myth and misinformation on the internet.

The OPs loads are not "over pressure".

[ACC]

So worked up a load for my 5.56. According to the book I should be over pressure but none of the 15 odd prices of lake city brass I have show any pressure signs I can tell. No split necks ,no popped primers ,no gas seepage around the primers ,can't even see an extractor mark. Why would this be ?

You are tickling the dragon's tail here. Pressure can also be effected by the ambient temperature. I have loaded my share of .222, 223, and 22-250. Be careful.

ACC

[johnsonian09]

You might be hitting a node right at that velocity in your gun. But tuning a load to barrel harmonic stuff is another subject all together.

I would go down and see if the groups open up then start to close again.

If you continue using this load, I would probably ask someone to run a quick load for you to calculate actual pressure. And maybe adjust seating depth to reduce pressure in addition to only using good conditions lc brass for it. As it has the largest capacity I'm aware of.

Also keep good records of your brass
When I load my revolver HOT, i only use new to once fired brass then that lot of brass gets turned into plinking load cases. 5 firings total. After 2 hot shots and 3 regulars most of the time that lot of brass is No good.

When i load normal book loads still stiff but not hot i can get 20-30 shots off a piece of brass.



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[white eagle]

play with fire long enough
and you get burned

[waksupi]

If you are shooting lead with jacketed info, the pressures are less with lead. You don't need to go balls to the wall. Find your accurate load, and use it.

[DCB]

This is what the internet is going by...
From Wikipedia,
A .223 Wylde chamber is a hybrid rifle chamber designed to allow .22 caliber barrels to safely fire both .223 Remington and 5.56×45mm NATO ammunition. While the cartridge dimensions of both rounds are the same, 5.56 NATO loads produce pressures in excess of the .223 safe spec. The 5.56 chamber has angular differences that allow higher pressures safely. .223 can be fired from a 5.56 chamber safely but with reduced accuracy. The Wylde is a hybrid chamber designed to allow both ammunition types to be safely fired with good accuracy.

[Kylongrifle32]

Wolfdog
As mentioned by many members pressures in a firearm are controlled by many things. Case to chamber fit, bullet seated to contact rifling, mixed manufactured brass.

Back in my younger days on my quest for "red mist" on ground hogs I started pushing Speers 52 gr HP's as fast as I could get them from a 22-250 Remington varminter. I was way over book max load and only stopped because the accuracy dropped off. I had no signs of pressure issues. One day while out in the field my buddy ran out of ammo and wanted to try one of mine. He shot at a ground hog on a large mound of dirt while I spotted. He fired and the ground hog just sat there. He asked where the bullet strike was and I told him must have went high I didn't see a splash. Hand him another round he aimed lower. Ground hog took back to the hole but I didn't think he was hit. I gave him one more round and told him to just shoot center of the dirt mound. I laid just behind him and when he fired all I saw was a huge orange mist fly out the muzzle. This time the case was hard to extract. When we got it out and check the cases over all of them had the primes flattened so hard the you could see all the machine work on the bolt face in the primers.
Unless you are a speed junkie I would work my loads up for accuracy versus velocity.

Be safe and have fun
Mike

[Larry Gibson]

This is what the internet is going by...
From Wikipedia,
A .223 Wylde chamber is a hybrid rifle chamber designed to allow .22 caliber barrels to safely fire both .223 Remington and 5.56×45mm NATO ammunition. While the cartridge dimensions of both rounds are the same, 5.56 NATO loads produce pressures in excess of the .223 safe spec. The 5.56 chamber has angular differences that allow higher pressures safely. .223 can be fired from a 5.56 chamber safely but with reduced accuracy. The Wylde is a hybrid chamber designed to allow both ammunition types to be safely fired with good accuracy.

Essentially what I said regards to pressure. Nothing there stipulates either round is "over pressure" only that 5.56 pressures exceed SAAMI pressure specifications for the 223 Rem. What Wiki doesn't say is any chamber in and 223 Rem rifle with a 10" or faster twist will have a throat for the heavier bullets. Thus shooting 5.56 out of them will not "increase pressure". Only in some 223 Remington with 12 or 14" twists will you find the shorter older SAAMI spec throat. However, with those one shouldn't be shooting the heavier jacketed bullets anyway as they won't stabilize.

Wolfdog93s loads while too fast for cast bullet accuracy in that twist barrel are still not over pressure for his 7" twist AR.

As to "223 can be fired from a 5.56 chamber safely but with reduced accuracy" I also strongly disagree as Federal match 223 Remington along with numerous other 52 - 55 gr jacketed factory 223 Rem loads are extremely accurate in 5.56 chambers as are quality reloads using quality bullets.

[GregLaROCHE]

So worked up a load for my 5.56. According to the book I should be over pressure but none of the 15 odd prices of lake city brass I have show any pressure signs I can tell. No split necks ,no popped primers ,no gas seepage around the primers ,can't even see an extractor mark. Why would this be ?

Why are you working up to these higher pressures? Have you started low and are working up to get better groupings? I’m sure many here experiment over published max loads, but they hopefully have had experience and a good handle on what they are doing and of course paying close attention to all signs. The SAMMI pressures are there to keep people safe. They are most like likely way below where problems may start to happen. If you want to venture into this no-mans land, your risk goes up. It’s not fore everyone. Know exactly what you are doing. Try lower amounts of powder and keep going down. You may find another sweet spot in the barrel harmonics. Stay safe!

[Wolfdog91]

Again yes I stared low and just yet working up till my groups where looking the way I wanted

[Wolfdog91]

Over pressure(?) for what?

Your AR is made and chambered for the 5.56 NATO cartridge (yes, some ARs are marked 223 Rem but that is/was simply the commercial designation for the cartridge). When SAAMI adopted the 223 Remington cartridge the MAP was set at 55,000 psi (transducer). Having measured the pressure of several commercial factory 223 cartridges that is what they adhere to. Also, even though SAAMI is a volunteer organization with not all manufacturers belonging, with the advent of SAAMI standards becoming the defacto (because of numerous court cases) "standard" almost all data in the latest manuals adhere to SAAMI standards.

The military does not load any cartridge to SAAMI standards. The U.S. military arsenals [and the commercial firms who load milspec ammunition] load to their own established standards including pressure standards. The current U.S. pressure standard for 5.56 M193 and M855 is 62,300 psi [measured in front of the case mouth which will give a slightly lower pressure than over the chamber as with SAAMI measurements]. Most lots of older M193 (U.S. 5.56 loaded with a 55 gr FMJBT) I have pressure tested run 56 - 59,000 psi as measured in a tight commercial "223 Remington" chamber. With the adoption of the M855 cartridge with its 62 gr FMJBT bullet pressures were increased to 62,300 psi. Such ammunition tested in the same commercial "223 Remington" chambered barrel run 62 - 64,000 psi.

The reason 5.56 can run upwards of 10,000 psi in "223 Remington" chambers is because it is loaded to "upwards of 10,000 psi" more than 223 Remington cartridges.

The Wilde chamber is simply a match chamber with a throat/leade to fit M855 ammunition. Its design had nothing to do with pressure reduction.

The above is based on actual facts and pressure measurements, not hypothetical fantasies. There is so much myth and misinformation on the internet.

The OPs loads are not "over pressure".

Thank you ,you also confirmed something I was wondering. Makes me really happy I picked a 5.56 over a .223 chamber

[downzero]

I would suspect because they're safe in your chamber. But without knowing more, nobody can answer your question.

I can say that "book max" in my 30 year old reloading manuals is far less than "book max" now for the same powder and bullet.

[P Flados]

For the 223 / 5.56 (and a number of other calibers), I use WC-844. This is the milsurp equivalent to H-335 and it has probably sent more 0.224" projectiles down range than any other powder.

Yes I know WC-844 is not one of the fancy new temp stable powders, but it really does work pretty good.

I noted Fed Arm has some back in stock for $208 per 16 lbs + $38 (S&H + Hazmat). This works out to $15.38 a lb.

https://fedarm.com/product/wc-844-powder-for-rifle-like-h335/

And although 16 lbs may sound like a lot, it really not a bad thing to have a good size batch so that you will get plenty of ammo without worrying about lot to lot changes. I think my last order of WC-844 was actually 32 lbs.

[Wolfdog91]

For the 223 / 5.56 (and a number of other calibers), I use WC-844. This is the milsurp equivalent to H-335 and it has probably sent more 0.224" projectiles down range than any other powder.

Yes I know WC-844 is not one of the fancy new temp stable powders, but it really does work pretty good.

I noted Fed Arm has some back in stock for $208 per 16 lbs + $38 (S&H + Hazmat). This works out to $15.38 a lb.

https://fedarm.com/product/wc-844-powder-for-rifle-like-h335/

And although 16 lbs may sound like a lot, it really not a bad thing to have a good size batch so that you will get plenty of ammo without worrying about lot to lot changes. I think my last order of WC-844 was actually 32 lbs.

Ugh if I didn't have a car note I'd be all over this , been wanting to try milsurp powder for a while now but all I had found was something for a 20mm vulcan's rounds

[1hole]

This is just a thought on "over book" charges.

I started serious shooting and reloading in a good gun club in mid '65; members ranged from late teen noobs to highly experienced men well over 65. A newish wannabe hotshot once asked our most knowlegable reloader (a tip of the hat to Vern Rome) how he could find the absolute maximum load for his newly received NRA/DCM 1903-A3 in .30-06. The soft spoken old guy looked away, thought a moment and said, "The only way you can ever really know the maximum charge for any rifle is to start 20% below book max and add a quarter grain at a time until she blows; then back off a half grain." There's a lot of reloading wisdom hidden in that.

[Lloyd Smale]

my go to 06 load pushes a 150 to 2900 fps and is a good 3 grains over max. Some calibers are just underloaded. I took one of my 06s out with the chrono one day shooting 150s with top book loads with 4350 and re19 and was getting just over 2600 fps. Less performance then i get with a 308. Some other examples are the 257 roberts, 250 savage, 757 857 and 300 H&H. Im sure theres more but those ones ive actualy found it myself.

[M-Tecs]

"The only way you can ever really know the maximum charge for any rifle is to start 20% below book max and add a quarter grain at a time until she blows; then back off a half grain." There's a lot of reloading wisdom hidden in that.

While that statement makes a good sound bite there is a lot of misinformation in that statement. 1903-A3 are a relatively strong action and various pressure related issues would stop the incremental increases long before the action totally failed.

In an 1903-A3 blown primers and stuck cases would happen long before the action blew. A 700 Remington is considered to be a very strong action. In a 700 action the case head will pressure weld to the bolt face before the action fails. Same for the front half of the case. The case will be pressure welded to the chamber walls. I have seen it twice due to wrong powder selection. One was an accident and one was a new reloaders ignorance. Neither action blew. In both occurrences the barrel had to be removed to open the bolt.

In the days of the 80 gr Sierra bullet being the only choice for long range .5.56 ammo the AMU used a load call the "V-8" load that required virgin primed LC brass since the primer and the case heads were the hardest available. Primer pockets were stretched beyond use on the first firing. I have read that pressures tested at 78,000 psi. These were used for 600 and 1,000 yard competition. They were close enough to the edge that they would crack a bolt lug occasionally but the AMU would just throw in a new bolt.

SAAMI max pressures are what is consider safe in the weakest firearm commonly available firearm that round is fired in. The 45 Colt is a great example SAAMI max is 14,000 PSI and that is currently considered to unsafe for the early 1873 Blackpowder frames. Most current 45 Colt 1873 are available with a 45 ACP cylinder that is considered safe at 23,000 PSI. Fired in a 454 Casull or 460 S&W the 45 Colt large primer pocket cases start having case and primer issues at about 50,000 PSI if using LMP primers. Standard pistol primers will be the weak link and start giving issues at a lower pressure.

Switch to 454 Casull or 460 S&W brass with small primer pockets and thicker case heads the SAAMI is 65,000 PSI. So is a 45 Colt load that is 20% above SAAMI unsafe in a stronger system??? No in a stronger system at 20% above you are still only at 16,800 psi.

The firearm and cartridge combine are a closed loop system. The weakest link in the system determines what is the max safe pressure is. One example is the low serial number Springfield's. Due to heat treat issues it believed at least some if not all of the low number Springfield's are unsafe with SAAMI spec ammo. Some other old ball firearms that are in the same situation but the low number Springfield are the most common.

[cabinarms]

May take up to 5 firings, till the primer pockets get loose. If you make it past 5, pressure should be ok.

every barrel is a law unto itself. what will produce moderate pressure in one barrel is high pressure in another.
above statement would be a safe way to view this. if the primer pockets loosen in a couple handloads. pressure is getting lil too high.

[P Flados]

Ugh if I didn't have a car note I'd be all over this , been wanting to try milsurp powder for a while now but all I had found was something for a 20mm vulcan's rounds

A $246 on-line purchase of powder is really not that big. Stop buying in small containers for a while and save up for an on-line purchase if you need to. Once you have the funds, start watching the milsurp guys. If the there are no good deals when you start looking, be patient. Within a couple of months, WC-844 will eventually become available at a good price (under $16 / lb).

[BunkTheory]

if you see pressure signs in a 38 special or 45 acp, its mostly likely because the last round was stuck mid barrel..

[BunkTheory]

for giggles go read the Norma reloading book, many instances the 5.56 can use more of a specific powder but get lower pressure then the .223, etc.

far to many accounts of folks over on the AR forums that have taken a nato throat tool, and given their .223 ar or bolt action rifles a nato style throat and use cases upon cases of mil surp 5.56 with no issue.

the original 5.56 x 45 55 grain fmj load was, and when made properly to mil standard, is nothing but the original 55 grain .223 loading with different head stamp. EVERYTHING was kept the same, the only issue was that the military system measures chamber pressure with a different system.

its like asking is there a difference if i used celsius or Fahrenheit to measure the temperature of my boiled hot dog, the numbers are different, but i still end up with a boiled hot dog.