Ughh... The world is messed up.

[bakerjw]

My son and I often go out for a few beers on Sundays to watch the NHRA drag races.
Today the NHRA was running finals at the track 10 miles up the road. My wife and I were moving wood and heard it,. Quite cool.
So, my son and I are at Applebees this afternoon watching the races. An older guy and a younger woman shows up and take a high top. After a while, she leads him to the restroom which I found odd but not worth noting. The staff also noticed and made comments about it. When they returned, they asked them if everything was ok and were assured that there were no problems.
A while passed and all was going well when this guy walks up and gets in my sons face and tells him that he's going to kick his ass if he talks to him again. Neither me nor his son said anything. It was like WTH? I am not a violent person and will always walk away from confrontation unless it is my visually impaired son.
The bartender gets him to sit back down and apologizes for whatever we said. ***?
The guys companion gets him to go to the truck and gets a to go box. the whole time I am simmering because the bartender has been acting like we caused the issue. She new I was steamed about the whole incident. The bartender told us that the companion wanted to send along apologies for the whole incident.
I posted on another forum about this and got jumped op for getting my feelings hurt. It's not hurt feelings, its just that if you have someone that unpredictable, don't take them out into public.
Just a crap afternoon because of someone that should not have been out among people. It's like a few years back at an Oktoberfest where they have dachshund races. We saw a guy with a cute dachshund. I grew up with one. I go up and he says "Don't get near her, she bites." So... Take her out in public???
the world is turning into a miserable place to be it seems.

[JimB..]

Sounds like he has issues that you are blessed not to have, don’t let it bother you.

BTW, half way through I really thought the story would end with her being a prostitute.

[FLINTNFIRE]

I would have got up and kicked his lunch to the next planet , I will not tolerate someone who weirds out for no reason , the only reason people do stuff like that is drugs and or just plain bullies and bullies are cowards .

Along with people acting weird , have you noticed how they all drive now , forget turn signals and stop signs or lights , and a batch of bikers seemed to think the red means they are good to go and the green for me was wait for them , well does not happen I drive right through as its my light and move your bike .

Do not tolerate stupid , or entitled .

[poppy42]

John Wayne once said in a move I quote:” I won’t be wronged, I won’t be insulted or talked down to, and I won’t have hands laid upon me! I don’t do this to others, and I won’t tolerate it done to me” now the quote might not be exact, but close enough. This is how I live my life! Now I turn 65 in December, had to many orthopedic surgeries the list here, lots of metal replacement parts. So obviously my response is now tailored to suit my abilities. But do any of those things to me and you can expect a response in kind. There are not too many things someone can do to me that has an already been done in the past! I will not tolerate those things listed above being done to me or my loved ones! Awful hard for a leopard to change his spots especially when it’s an old leopard!

[0verkill]

Well,you said you were having beers,maybe he had too many or whatever pills he took before he got there didn't mix well with it. Could have been somebody with a chemical imbalance, normal 99% of the time but occasionally hears people say **** they didn't say. People can't help that stuff.You did the right thing by not escalating,his friend did the right thing removing him. The bartender is the one sounds like the *******, treating you like it was your fault. May or may not have been the other guys fault, but definitely wasn't yours.

[armoredman]

...

[Triggerfinger]

His mental issues are not your problem, but you did the right thing. People like that can go zero to ninety in a heartbeat and who knows what he had in the truck to come back at you with.

[BJK]

You did the right thing by keeping your cool. I hope you kept furtive eyes on him the rest of the time he was there. Who knows what he was capable of? We see violence, which he was threatening you with having certain social rules. But many people live in a world of asocial violence and to them rules don't apply. Those people should be locked up with the rest of the asocial animals but the evil folks in power release them into society. Again, who knows what could have happened and since you could have been reacting to someone to whom rules don't apply you'd come out on the losing end.

Example... rules don't apply so he immediately makes a killing blow.

Yes, the world is messed up and getting worse.

[contender1]

I agree with many of the others,, you did right by NOT escalating the issue. And yes,, the bartender should have seen that the other jerk was the initiator & not allowed him to start anything.

We who are gun owners,, and carry for SD,, NEED to be of the personality to where we avoid the potential physical confrontations that could result in major problems. Be willing to walk away,, accept minor infractions of your personal beliefs, to avoid things escalating to where it becomes violent. A good example if my mindset happened many years ago.
My Dad,, my brother, & myself are all Vets. My Dad asked me once; "Why do you carry that gun,, what are you scared of?" My reply was; "Dad, I'm not scared of anything,, but I'm prepared for anything. But I'll avoid things as much as possible." My Dad replied; "Ok, good."

I've avoided & tried to avoid any potential places or things that could lead to an elevated issue that could become very very quickly.

You did good.

[Ithaca Gunner]

I think you did well, and probably what I would have done under the same.

[Thumbcocker]

I went to visit a relative at a nursing home. A man came up to me as soon as I walked in the door and yelled "Whose your mother" in a belligerent voice with aggressive posture.

He had alzheimers. He calmed down when he was talked to by my aunt. It made sense in the nursing home. In a public setting I would have reacted. Maybe you had a similar situation. The fact that the young lady took him to the bathroom makes me think that might be the case. You did the right thing.

[bakerjw]

My wife's step dad is a Viet Nam vet and lashes out a lot. Ugly stuff. Just mean spirited hateful things. It always leaves my mother in law to apologize for his behavior. He was berating a waitress one night and I told him to be nice. I actually thought that he was going to shoot me then. I told my wife last night that I'm sick and tired of dealing with nut jobs. Whatever the guys problem is, he has my sympathy. BUT... The the entire situation would have pivoted in a heart beat had he struck my son.

I am not a violent person nor do I go seeking altercations. If someone, like my wife's step dad, is being a donkey, I walk away to avoid confrontation. There are so many guys out there that just look for a reason to punch somebody, willing to resort to violence at the slightest provocation but that is not in my makeup. I like people and see everyone as a friend. I am well known for being able to talk to anyone.

No harm and no foul at the end of the day. I felt sorry for the young woman having to deal with all of the grief. Out for a nice afternoon dinner and then BAM... It all goes down the drain for no reason at all.

We ended up at my sons house watching the final rounds and all was well. Two women won motorcycle and funny car and Mike Salinas who runs a junkyard won top fuel.

[country gent]

I feel you and your son did the right thing in remaining calm and collected, escalating the incident wouldnt have gained anything and by remaining calm other patrons seen you and would be witness to the fact if he did push it farther. A verbal threat is seldom cause for a physical reply, and wouldnt have been a good ending to this.

It sounds like the bartender knew him or of him and was trying to appease him also to avert any escalation. These guys work in a "rough" environment and a known problem customer is often appeased rather than other means.

While I carry, I will walk away any and every time I can. I would much rather walk away than go thru taking a life. A loud mouth bully isnt worth the hassles that will come if you escalate it. Most states Self defense laws state you must be in fear of PHYSICAL or life threatening injury, verbal threats or insults arnt going to do it in court.

Also believe it or not, If you make the first actual physical move the courts may interpret that as Him being justified in defending himself instead of what really took place. There are those who will push verbally then when the person retaliates and a fight ensues will sue for damages getting big payday from it.

[BJK]

While I carry, I will walk away any and every time I can. I would much rather walk away than go thru taking a life.


Precisely! OK, here's what will and can happen if we're involved in a shooting. The cops show up and don't know what's going on. You'll be put in handcuffs. Maybe they'll sort it out and release you, or maybe you'll find yourself behind bars until they do. Assume the worst. Even if it's a clean shooting the DA might be out to make a name for himself and charge you. That means a trial. And you'll need a lawyer and that costs lots of $. We can lose everything all over words? But assume it's physical. First disengage if possible. Make every attempt. Loudly, for other people to hear and attract eyes , "Get away, stay back, leave me alone!", words to that effect, hopefully there will be time. Then and only if you can't disengage, and if deadly force is about to be used on you are we justified in using deadly force. Why? Because it will be highly scrutinized and you don't want to find yourself keeping Bubba happy in a cell for 20 to life. Another reason not to use it unless it's a last option is we have to live with it. Most people will find it to be a life changing and mind altering action. For your own mind you need to know that you did everything not to use deadly force and that your action was fully justified. After the shooting and while waiting for the cops to think you're a murderer be sure to do what you can for the fallen. It will bolster your defense.

Oh, and don't brandish to show what you could use to get the other person to back down. Brandishing is illegal pretty much everywhere. They'll remain free and laughing while the cuffs are slapped on you (or me). The only time the firearm is ever removed from the holster is a split second before it's used.

The gent who wrote how much on a knifes edge his use of deadly force is? Best remove that post. That can come back to haunt you.

[bakerjw]

These guys work in a "rough" environment and a known problem customer is often appeased rather than other means.
.

Just for clarity. This was a woman bartender and it was Applebee's on a Sunday afternoon. Family time. Husbands and wives and sometimes the kids. If it were a regular bar, I wouldn't be there as they often have these kinds of bad actors.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Yep, you did the right thing by remaining cool headed. Some guys just love to start a fight, remember that episode of "Married with Children" where they go to the bar, just to get into a fight...I personally know some people like that, they get addicted to the adrenalin rush.


SNIP>>>

No harm and no foul at the end of the day. I felt sorry for the young woman having to deal with all of the grief. Out for a nice afternoon dinner and then BAM... It all goes down the drain for no reason at all.

Don't fool yourself, lots of women love the drama of that lifestyle...they are attached to those fight'n Men for a reason.

[almar]

I had a similar incident last year, we were out for a mothers day dinner with a bunch of people, one older couple in their 60's was with us that day and after dinner we were in front of the restaurant and this guy comes walking up and tells the woman, "why don't you get out of the way *cursewords*". A switch went on in my mind, like a rush of adrenaline, I was hyper focused on hurting the "threat" to satisfaction. No rational thought, no pondering on consequences after the fact, just action. The older woman saw this and with a shaking voice said my name and "no don't, don't". That snapped me back to reality and although she thanked me recently for that, I would rather thank her for preventing me to do what I was about to do. Reality is that there always will be jerks out there, don't fall into their trap because the judge wont be merciful. If you rise in anger, you sit back down at a loss.

[waksupi]

I've seen this behavior with people who have had a major heart incident. Hugh changes in character and behavior. I took care of a friend after bypass surgery. He had always been real reserved,and never told anyone of his previous life. The second night I was at his house, he woke me up around 2am, and asked me to help him out of bed. For the next three hours, he told me of his life in the military, and his involvement with the early space program, and the astronauts he still kept in touch with. He had me get out his Presidential Citations,and his service medals. For the next couple months, he was prone to outburst somewhat like you experienced. You never know how a major medical event will affect someone. Since he had an escort, I suspect this is what you ran in to.

[MaryB]

I feel you and your son did the right thing in remaining calm and collected, escalating the incident wouldnt have gained anything and by remaining calm other patrons seen you and would be witness to the fact if he did push it farther. A verbal threat is seldom cause for a physical reply, and wouldnt have been a good ending to this.

It sounds like the bartender knew him or of him and was trying to appease him also to avert any escalation. These guys work in a "rough" environment and a known problem customer is often appeased rather than other means.

While I carry, I will walk away any and every time I can. I would much rather walk away than go thru taking a life. A loud mouth bully isnt worth the hassles that will come if you escalate it. Most states Self defense laws state you must be in fear of PHYSICAL or life threatening injury, verbal threats or insults arnt going to do it in court.

Also believe it or not, If you make the first actual physical move the courts may interpret that as Him being justified in defending himself instead of what really took place. There are those who will push verbally then when the person retaliates and a fight ensues will sue for damages getting big payday from it.

I went up to the local bar to have a couple beers with friends. A dude I knew from out of town came up and was getting in my face so I told him not interested please leave. He slapped me. Then walked off. I told the bartender he needed to be removed because he was massively drunk but he was a buddy of the bartenders. Dude slapped me again and I told the bartender if he does it again violence is going to happen in your bar. Bartender still refused to remove him and kept serving him.

Dude went to slap me a third time so I grabbed his arm, yanked him forward off balance and broke it over the edge of the bar. Bartender called the cops on me saying I started it but 3/4 of the bar backed me when the cops showed and when the bar owner showed the bartender was fired for serving someone who should have been cut off and escorted out. Owner offered me some free drinks which I turned down. Told him I had taken care of the issue then he heard that I had broke the dudes arm. He laughed and said he had it coming(which he did, some people need to learn the meaning of NO).

Guy who's arm I broke came in a month later and apologized. He said he was way out of line and was in AA to stop drinking, he was letting it ruin his life and my breaking his arm drove that point home. Along with the 4 weeks in jail for assault for hitting me and drunk and disorderly...

I am a patient person, very hard to get my temper going but I do have a limit!

[MUSTANG]

My son and I often go out for a few beers on Sundays to watch the NHRA drag races.
Today the NHRA was running finals at the track 10 miles up the road. My wife and I were moving wood and heard it,. Quite cool.
So, my son and I are at Applebees this afternoon watching the races. An older guy and a younger woman shows up and take a high top. After a while, she leads him to the restroom which I found odd but not worth noting. The staff also noticed and made comments about it. When they returned, they asked them if everything was ok and were assured that there were no problems.
A while passed and all was going well when this guy walks up and gets in my sons face and tells him that he's going to kick his ass if he talks to him again. Neither me nor his son said anything. It was like WTH? I am not a violent person and will always walk away from confrontation unless it is my visually impaired son.
The bartender gets him to sit back down and apologizes for whatever we said. ***?
The guys companion gets him to go to the truck and gets a to go box. the whole time I am simmering because the bartender has been acting like we caused the issue. She new I was steamed about the whole incident. The bartender told us that the companion wanted to send along apologies for the whole incident.
I posted on another forum about this and got jumped op for getting my feelings hurt. It's not hurt feelings, its just that if you have someone that unpredictable, don't take them out into public.
Just a crap afternoon because of someone that should not have been out among people. It's like a few years back at an Oktoberfest where they have dachshund races. We saw a guy with a cute dachshund. I grew up with one. I go up and he says "Don't get near her, she bites." So... Take her out in public???
the world is turning into a miserable place to be it seems.


My read is totally different than most here. I smell the twigging into the head and snorting or otherwise taking drugs; then "Feeling Invincible & Paranoid" after leaving the Head deciding to pick a fight.

Avoid a fight where possible; but if not possible, then end it as soon as possible with as little force as necessary - but enough to end it so that myself and others are not harmed. I will not tolerate an attack on myself or others.

Nugh said; I'll go back to sitting with my back to the wall and watching the best and worst of humanity do their thing until they drag me into it.

[FLINTNFIRE]

I to think the bathroom incident was dope , have seen it a lot they go in together and get high , tweaking flailing or whatever they call it today , but I will not tolerate someone attempting to abuse someone I am with , kick their ass and the bartenders to if they are that big of a **** head they allow that in their bar .

I sit with back to bar and I watch the circus , leave me alone all is well , try to bully me or company I will not tolerate it . No carry in a bar here , but only need that if they escalate it .

The world is messed up and it is getting worse and it will be normal soon and the escalation of the impaired and behavioral challenged is going to be more frequent amongst polite society , as this world is headed to hell and rule by the beast .

[Gator 45/70]

Applebee's sounds like a rough place, Glad I don't go there, Are they not anti-gun ?

[Ithaca Gunner]

I'm too old for this stuff. Since they let in so many social members, I don't even go to the Legion or Vets anymore let alone a public house.

[farmbif]

yeah the world has become a crazy place.
it makes me remember an altercation I witnessed back in my drinking days. it started with words between two guys in the Waffle House which would fill up after the bars closed. then one guy smashed the others head with a ketchup bottle., it escalated and the two tustling broke though a big plate glass window. both were still going at each other in the broken glass when the cops showed up. they ended up hand cuffed in ambulances. but if that altercation would have happened today where everyone seems to have a need to carry a handgun with a double stacked magazine I can imagine several dead and dozens wounded.
but of course these days ketchup bottles are plastic

[bakerjw]

The guy was confused and she directed him to the bathroom. This wasn't a date but more like a daughter or grand daughter taking out their dad/grandpa. I believe that it is a case of mental illness or Alzheimer's.


Applebee's sounds like a rough place, Glad I don't go there, Are they not anti-gun ?
This particular Applebee's used to have a "No Firearms" sign. After Tennessee passed a law allowing the carrying of firearms into restaurants that serve alcohol as long as the person carrying does not drink, I contacted their corporate office and they immediately removed the sign. Still no signs there.

[Land Owner]

In gun friendly FL you do not carry to a bar. By law, that is illegal. Carry to a restaurant that has a bar, by law, is not. Nobody but nobody is slapping this old fart. By law, that confrontation should be construed as a threat of "deadly force" (against a senior enjoying a meal with family) and the display of a firearm in the Perp's face should be sufficient to quiet the situation under the law of Stand Your Ground here.

While I don't want it to happen, I would test the water in a similar situation and take the consequences.

[Gator 45/70]

In gun friendly FL you do not carry to a bar. By law, that is illegal. Carry to a restaurant that has a bar, by law, is not. Nobody but nobody is slapping this old fart. By law, that confrontation should be construed as a threat of "deadly force" (against a senior enjoying a meal with family) and the display of a firearm in the Perp's face should be sufficient to quiet the situation under the law of Stand Your Ground here.

While I don't want it to happen, I would test the water in a similar situation and take the consequences.

Sounds close to La. law, Take something like Texas Road House's lay-out, You can't carry inside the Zone
This would be the immediate area around the bar, Rest of the area where you eat is okay.
Better not even have 1/2 a beer, This will put you over the legal limit to C.C.

[JimB..]

I went up to the local bar to have a couple beers with friends. A dude I knew from out of town came up and was getting in my face so I told him not interested please leave. He slapped me. Then walked off. I told the bartender he needed to be removed because he was massively drunk but he was a buddy of the bartenders. Dude slapped me again and I told the bartender if he does it again violence is going to happen in your bar. Bartender still refused to remove him and kept serving him.

Dude went to slap me a third time so I grabbed his arm, yanked him forward off balance and broke it over the edge of the bar. Bartender called the cops on me saying I started it but 3/4 of the bar backed me when the cops showed and when the bar owner showed the bartender was fired for serving someone who should have been cut off and escorted out. Owner offered me some free drinks which I turned down. Told him I had taken care of the issue then he heard that I had broke the dudes arm. He laughed and said he had it coming(which he did, some people need to learn the meaning of NO).

Guy who's arm I broke came in a month later and apologized. He said he was way out of line and was in AA to stop drinking, he was letting it ruin his life and my breaking his arm drove that point home. Along with the 4 weeks in jail for assault for hitting me and drunk and disorderly...

I am a patient person, very hard to get my temper going but I do have a limit!
May I say that I am disappointed that another patron didn’t step up to help resolve this when the drunk first went hands on. Maybe I’m old fashioned, but striking someone is unacceptable.

[MaryB]

May I say that I am disappointed that another patron didn’t step up to help resolve this when the drunk first went hands on. Maybe I’m old fashioned, but striking someone is unacceptable.

Locals all know me, know I can handle most drunks... at 5'11" I am not tiny LOL and I spent a LOT of time on stock car pit crews growing up, learned to defend myself from the drunks on other crews(we never drank at the track, once we were parked for the night we would drink some beer), plus I drag raced for 4 years, Brainard International can be a rough place... If the dude would have grabbed me friends would have stepped in and handled it. Sheriff was parked behind the bar waiting for this dude to drive off, it would have been his 7th or 8th DUI, no license, no insurance... so jail time. So he got lucky he didn't drive, 4 weeks versus 2-5 years...

[blackthorn]

Just a thought----Some folks are more to be pitied than maligned. Around here, (before Covid) when we regularly went out for lunch several times a month, we often encountered people with disadvantages accompanied by a "handler" (for lack of a better description. Some of these poor souls have issues that can surface at any time and the handler will immediately intervene when one of his/her charges misbehaves. It is entirely possible this type situation was what you experienced. That said, I would be ready to react, just in case, (with force if necessary) in similar circumstances.

[Char-Gar]

There are many dysfunctional people in this country. We cannot avoid crossing paths with them from time to time. We need to understand it is they that have the problem and not us. We adopt their problem, when we let them get to us and now there are two people with the same problem. Not smart!

Addendum: A person who does not have control of his/her emotions, has no business carrying a gun anywhere.

[JoeJames]

In the 70's all or most of the residents of the state hospitals were released upon the general public. Since then you'd commit someone down there; they'd keep them a short time, get them all set on drugs and turn 'em back loose. They'd pat them and tell them to be sure and take your drugs every day. They'd come back and in a week or so they'd forget to take their drugs; then get committed again and again in a cycle. Typical liberal solution!

[shooterg]

Are you absolutely sure it wasn't Joe and Jill ?

[bob15]

I would have got up and kicked his lunch to the next planet , I will not tolerate someone who weirds out for no reason , the only reason people do stuff like that is drugs and or just plain bullies and bullies are cowards .

Along with people acting weird , have you noticed how they all drive now , forget turn signals and stop signs or lights , and a batch of bikers seemed to think the red means they are good to go and the green for me was wait for them , well does not happen I drive right through as its my light and move your bike .

Do not tolerate stupid , or entitled .

There are things called mental issues. Heck, the man could be suffering from PTSD or any of dozen different mental illnesses. To say it was caused by drugs or he is a coward/bully is just plain wrong.

As for the lack of using a turn signal and lights....where have you been the past 30 years. People weren't using signal lights 30 years ago and it's no different today.

[FLINTNFIRE]

There are things called mental issues. Heck, the man could be suffering from PTSD or any of dozen different mental illnesses. To say it was caused by drugs or he is a coward/bully is just plain wrong.

As for the lack of using a turn signal and lights....where have you been the past 30 years. People weren't using signal lights 30 years ago and it's no different today.

No he sounds more like a druggie and a weirdo with a streak of bully , been driving for longer then 30 years and it seems in the last 5-10 is when people stopped using turn signals , most of the people I have run into with mental issues got them from their drug use and then they get SSI to boot , paid for their own stupidity , ptsd some do have it a whole lot more claim to have it most who have lived through life get on with living and ask no special favors or pity from no one .

[MUSTANG]

Both PTSD and Back Injuries are amongst the most ABUSED medical conditions in the USA. Both are true conditions that negatively impact some people; BUT... are not in most cases provable one way or another, simply knowing what to tell a Doctor about your "Condition" results in a positive diagnosis. This is why the numbers of cases of PTSD and Back Injuries are rampant in the US; and of course Public Assistance monies follow the diagnosis.

Same applies to many others; but... tailored to post #35 above.

[JimB..]

Both PTSD and Back Injuries are amongst the most ABUSED medical conditions in the USA. Both are true conditions that negatively impact some people; BUT... are not in most cases provable one way or another, simply knowing what to tell a Doctor about your "Condition" results in a positive diagnosis. This is why the numbers of cases of PTSD and Back Injuries are rampant in the US; and of course Public Assistance monies follow the diagnosis.

Same applies to many others; but... tailored to post #35 above.
I have a back problem, have for decades, where do I sign up for some free money, and can I get back pay for the past 38 years?

[elmacgyver0]

I have a back problem, have for decades, where do I sign up for some free money, and can I get back pay for the past 38 years?

I'm sure you can, if you find the right lawyer.

[MaryB]

Both PTSD and Back Injuries are amongst the most ABUSED medical conditions in the USA. Both are true conditions that negatively impact some people; BUT... are not in most cases provable one way or another, simply knowing what to tell a Doctor about your "Condition" results in a positive diagnosis. This is why the numbers of cases of PTSD and Back Injuries are rampant in the US; and of course Public Assistance monies follow the diagnosis.

Same applies to many others; but... tailored to post #35 above.

Back injuries ARE provable.. I have 9 MRI's and multiple CT scans to prove it... I was told I would be in a wheelchair by 2010... now 2021 and I still hunt and shoot(not as much as I used to but part of that is age related slowing me down arthritis). But I am stubborn and bet the doc I wouldn't. 1 years free medical care. He paid up.