Remington’s 45 long Colt Black Powder Load

[StrawHat]

Elmer Keith wrote on several occasions that if he were to be restricted to the 45 long Colt, he would load it with the Remington Black Powder cartridge. After he passed, and his revolvers were unloaded, it was found he had written what he practiced and indeed the loads in the 45 long Colt SAAs were the specified Remingtons.

Is anyone aware of how much and what powder Remington used that would make EK choose them over his reloads or smokeless loads?

Kevin

[Ithaca Gunner]

Most likely it was Remington's full power load of 40gr. +/- in a balloon head case topped with a 250gr. swaged flat nose conical bullet which was available in factory ammunition in to the 1930's at least. As I recall velocity in a 7.5'' barrel was around 1,000fps.

This was the original ''Army'' load, (to put down an enemy's horse) due to recoil and being hard on guns it was reduced several times and various loads were available from factories. I shoot some close to 40gr. FFFg loads in my Colt Bisley .45 with a Lyman 454190 boolit and can attest to it's recoil. Not sharp like a .44 Magnum, but it does raise the gun considerably with each shot and a distinctive ''BOOM!'' and a cloud of smoke.

In Remington's 1911-1912 catalog they list three loads for their black powder .45 Colt ammunition, 250gr. bullet with 40gr. powder-35gr.powder-28gr.powder.

Here's a link to some fun reading, www.cartridgecollectors.org/ammunition-catalogs old ammunition catalogs from most U.S. manufacturers dating from around the turn of the century. Enjoy!

[Oyeboten]

Indeed, the original right Loading for .45 Colt was and remains "stout"..!

Especially when existing a full length Barrel.

Had I been around then, I'd have opted for .44 Russian - "Stout" enough to take care of anyone needing it, and a little faster recovery time from recoil to get back on Target, if need be.

I love .45 Colt though!

[Dave T]

I believe Keith claimed it was 910 fps. Back in the late '80s I acquired a box of fifty NOS balloon head cases. I loaded them with an honest 40g charge of FFg behind a 255g, 1-20 RNFP. Chronographed from a 7-1/2" US stamped Colt that load produced 914 fps. In a 1st Gen 5-1/2" revolver it chrono'd 894 fps and 864 fps from a rebuilt 1st Gen 4-3/4" revolver.

[QUOTE]In Remington's 1911-1912 catalog they list three loads for their black powder .45 Colt ammunition, 250gr. bullet with 40gr. powder-35gr.powder-28gr.powder.


Thanks for that info Ithaca Gunner. I knew about the 40g charge being offered that late but not the others. I saw a reprint of Winchester's 1899 catalog that listed the 45 Colt load as 38g behind a 255g.

As an interesting aside; UMC then REM-UMC always offered their 45 Colt factory rounds with 250g projectiles while Winchester loaded their BP factory ammo with 255g bullets. That continued into the 20th Century smokeless factory loads. Remington's 45 Colt has a 250g bullet and Winchester's has a 255g.

Dave

[Savvy Jack]

290567

I feel fairly confident based on my tests with the 44-40 that the 45 Colt fully loaded in original Frankford Arsonal type cases would produce a bit more velocity and chamber pressures than folks realize. This, of course, is why they toned it down to 250gr bullets and 30gr of powder by Oct 1873. Early pre-1884 unheadstamped cases would probably place second for the fastest velocity and highest pressures followed third by WRA headstamped and Remington headstamped Solid-Head Semi-Balloon head cases. Step the later back up to 40gr, and they should still produce less than what the unheadstamped cases produced.

[Dave T]

This, of course, is why they toned it down to 250gr bullets and 30gr of powder by Oct 1873.

According to Graham, Kopec, & Moore's book A Study of the Colt Single Action Army Revolver the 30g load behind a 250g bullet was adopted in August of 1874.

Dave

[Savvy Jack]

According to Graham, Kopec, & Moore's book A Study of the Colt Single Action Army Revolver the 30g load behind a 250g bullet was adopted in August of 1874.

Dave


Oct 1873
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Nov 1873
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Dec 1873
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Jan 1874
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Order Contract Signed July 23, 1873
First 8,000 arms Ordered & Shipped to Springfield, Mass.

Received at Springfield Armory from Colt Factory

Shipped in Lots of 1,000 Qty Est sn# Range Date
1,000 200-1222 Nov 28, 1873
1,000 1224-2336 Dec 19, 1873
1,000 2336-3437 Jan 3, 1874
1,000 3438-4515 Jan 24, 1874
1,000 4516-5521 Jan 31, 1874
1,000 5522-6530 Feb 17, 1874
1,000 6531-7540 Mar 5, 1874
1,000 7541-8610 Mar 18, 1874
Issued to Cav. Unit Est. sn# Range Est. Qty Date No. Issued Arsenal
6th and 10th Combined 200-1,222 1,422 Dec 19, 1873 Nov 28, 1873 2,035 Leavenworth, Ks
1,224-2,336 1,112
4th 2,337-3,437 1,100 Jan 3rd, 1874 ----- San Antonio, Tx
2nd 3,438-4,515 1,077 Jan 24, 1874 904 Rock Island, Ill
7th 4,516-5,521 1,005 Jan 31, 1874 755 Rock Island, Ill
1st 5,522-6,530 1,308 Feb 17, 1874 600 Benicia, Ca
3rd 6,531-7,540 1,009 Mar 5, 1874 976 Rock Island, Ill
5th 7,541-8,610 1,069 Mar 18, 1874 475 Ariz & NMex
Sequence of Issuance of the First 8,000 Revolvers During 1874

Unit (Cav.) Issuing Arsenal 1st Qtr 2nd Qtr 3rd Qtr 4th Qtr
10th Leavenworth 671 341
6th Leavenworth 84 879
4th San Antonio 80 873
2nd Rock Island 168 736
7th Rock Island 755 131
3rd Rock Island 976
1st Benicia 599 57
5th San Antonio 502
8th Fort Union 475 183
9th San Antonio 120 372
Total 8,002

The 30gr BP 250gr lead bullet Frankford loads were reported to be 624ft lbs of energy @ 1,050fps. Production reportedly suspended with the August 1874 ammunition lot.
290583

By 1875..... The shorter Schofield cartridge with 28gr powder and a 230gr lead bullet.
Production of this new shorter cartridge began in early 1875 and at some point officially designated the ".45 Government Revolver cartridge". This 45 produced 276ft lbs @ 730fps, making the 44-40 actually more powerful!!

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[Savvy Jack]

Winchester's 1875 catalog

Centerfire 45 Colt cartridges

290584

Although earlier civilian boxes were offered, this one shows the pristine ammunition inside.

UMC! Notice the early unheadstamped cases. More than likely 30gr of BP and a 250gr bullet. Both Winchester and Remington started headstamping their cases sometime around or during 1884. These cases are not headstamped and the box label shows an 1884 patent.
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Winchester's 1895 catalog offered the following,
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[Castaway]

The original 45 Colt load for the Army was 30 grains with a 250 grain bullet as loaded by Frankford Arsenal. Testing with 40 grains proved to be too much. Later, Remington introduced its 40 grain civilian load. A persistent rumor has developed that the cartridge was designed to put down a horse, either the enemies or even your own. If anyone has a reference to the requirements document that specifies this, please post it. I’m convinced it never existed but is anecdotal based on the capability of the cartridge

[Savvy Jack]

The original 45 Colt load for the Army was 30 grains with a 250 grain bullet as loaded by Frankford Arsenal. Testing with 40 grains proved to be too much. Later, Remington introduced its 40 grain civilian load. A persistent rumor has developed that the cartridge was designed to put down a horse, either the enemies or even your own. If anyone has a reference to the requirements document that specifies this, please post it. I’m convinced it never existed but is anecdotal based on the capability of the cartridge

Thanks for the information Castaway. Can you by any chance post the source of the civilian 40gr loads and by what date? Any chance the UMC boxes I posted above is 40gr rather than 30? Winchester only offered 35gr of BP for their 1895 loads from what I can find.

THANKS!!!

Some more food for thought...

The "Army" placed an order for 8,000 M1873 "45 Colts" during 1873. By 1874, they were well distributed, as well as in Custer's regiment. As early as October 1874, prominent gun dealer Benjamin Kittredge & Co of Cincinnati began marketing Colt's new pistol as The Peacemaker for the civilian market. Another distributor, Henry Folsom & Co acquired and sold off a few of 18 that were displayed during the 1876 Expo. Of those 18 displayed, the following 5 sn#s were on a receipt from Folsom...8,900, 8,925, 8,926, 8,927 and 8,928. These 5 sn#s are a bit higher than 8,000 and were engraved. William B. "Bat" Masterson purchased a Colt from the Colt Company on July 30, 1885. Between October, 1879, and October, 1885, he ordered at least eight Single Action Army revolvers directly from the Colt factory. He kept some for his own use while giving the others to friends as gifts. The first of these, marked "W. B. Masterson," sported a 7-1/2-inch barrel. Yet, of the remaining seven, two had 5-1/2-inch barrels while the rest were 4-3/4-inches in length. Colt displayed some long-barreled single actions at the Philadelphia Centennial Exposition in 1876, it was not until December 1, 1877, that any left the Hartford assembly plant for actual sale. Johnny Ringo at some point acquired sn# 222, found next to his body in July 13, 1882. Billy the Kid somehow ended up with sn# 361. Virgil Earp somehow acquired sn# 808 by 1881. Frank Jackson acquired sn# 934. Jessie James acquired sn# 1,222. Frank Stilwell is reported owning sn# 1,281. Charlie Reynolds (killed at little bighorn) had sn# 2,499. Gen Alfred Terry (Commander Dakota Territory from later 72' to 86') acquired sn# 4,507. sn# 4,995 recovered from the Custer battlefield. Lt William Reily lost and paid for sn# 5,125, then issued sn# 4,815...killed at LBH. "Spotting Crow" took possession of sn# 5,128 from LBH. The back strap of sn# 6,048 was found at LBH during the 1984 archeological survey. Sebastian Outlaw acquired sn# 6,285. An Ainsworth inspected SAA sn# 10,344 was customized for Sheriff "Fay A. during refurbishing.
Brown" By 1882, some 73,729 revolvers reported manufactured. As can be seen from the civilian cartridge box top labels, the civilian market had access to civilian versions of the 45 Colt cartridges as early as 1875 and I must assume maybe even earlier before items were printed in catalogs. Unlike today, catalogs were not printed very often.

Interestingly enough, no Single Action Army's were reported at the gunfight at the OK Corral in 1881. Two of the cowboys killed were carrying 44-40 Frontier Six Shooters as well as had Winchester repeaters in their saddle scabbards. Doesn't mean they were not there, just not reported. In case it may not have registered from above, note most well known or famous old west icons had early sn#s, more than likely ex- Calvary or stolen. Bat Masterson loved the Colt Buntline so much, of all the SA's he custom ordered, non were Buntlines nor was he actually ever presented with one or even owned one. Books are not always accurate...the "fake news" from the old west!

[Castaway]

Savvy Jack, I don’t have a reference for the Remington load, but seem to recall 1881 or 1883, but that’s a guess.
In “Arming & Equipping the United States Cavalry, 1865 - 1902” by Dušan P. Farmington, he references Colts Revolver, Cal: 45 cartridges from Frankfort Arsenal with 30 grains of powder and a 250 grain bullet dated Apr 1874. In July, 74, the Schofield was adopted. Consequently, subsequent contracts for Army ammunition were for the shortened, 28 grains of powder under a 230 grain bullet, that both pistols could load and fire. As you mentioned, and as aside, the first contract for 8,000 Colts was in July, 73 with acceptance inspections Nov, 73 to March, 74.

[Savvy Jack]

Savvy Jack, I don’t have a reference for the Remington load, but seem to recall 1881 or 1883, but that’s a guess.
In “Arming & Equipping the United States Cavalry, 1865 - 1902” by Dušan P. Farmington, he references Colts Revolver, Cal: 45 cartridges from Frankfort Arsenal with 30 grains of powder and a 250 grain bullet dated Apr 1874. In July, 74, the Schofield was adopted. Consequently, subsequent contracts for Army ammunition were for the shortened, 28 grains of powder under a 230 grain bullet, that both pistols could load and fire. As you mentioned, and as aside, the first contract for 8,000 Colts was in July, 73 with acceptance inspections Nov, 73 to March, 74.

I am curious as to why guys are finding (they were never lost, just hidden) Frankford 45 Colt boxes dating back as early as August 1873. So I wonder what is meant by "adopted" when it comes to the date the 45 Colt ammunition was "used". Is the author basically referencing the ammunition date to when the Calvary took possession of the Colt revolvers from the 8,000 count order or when the Units first fired them? For whatever reason it certainly appears he may be mistaken and the 30gr/250gr Frankford loads were available by August 1873 rather than being "adopted" in 1874. I think they were adopted when the revolvers were ordered but never used until the 6th and 10th Units had a chance to shoot them for maybe the first time sometime after Nov 28, 1873 after they took possession of the new Colts.

I can't wait to find documented factory load data for the civilian ammunition between 1873 and 1895

[Savvy Jack]

Another interesting note to back up Winchester's 45 Colt centerfire ammunition in 1875 would be an add from 1876 found from John P Lower Sportsman's Depot of Denver Colorado.
He advertised Colts Cartridge Pistols, Colts "45 Cal. New Central Fire Army, 6 Shot". One would think 40gr BP but I can not find such an add that shows 40gr. So far all I can find is 35gr/255gr through 1895 by Winchester.

[Castaway]

No doubt the 30/250 cartridges were in existence in 73 as something had to test with. During acceptance testing, different loads would have been available as well. I’m still digging on the 40/255 grain combo.

[Savvy Jack]

No doubt the 30/250 cartridges were in existence in 73 as something had to test with. During acceptance testing, different loads would have been available as well. I’m still digging on the 40/255 grain combo.

I found some leads on the Ordnance documents but so far I can not find the actual documents...my head hurts!

[Dave T]

I don't have the computer skills to post pictures of documents which no doubt ruins my credibility here. Non-the-less I have seen and read reprints of the following:

The 1880 UMC catalog listed 45 Colt's loaded with 40g of powder and a 250g bullet. The 1891 Ideal Handbook showed the 45 Colt's being loaded with 35g of powder and the same 250g bullet. Also, the 1899 Winchester catalog lists 45 Colt's having 38g of powder and a 255g bullet.

Dave

[Savvy Jack]

I don't have the computer skills to post pictures of documents which no doubt ruins my credibility here. Non-the-less I have seen and read reprints of the following:

The 1880 UMC catalog listed 45 Colt's loaded with 40g of powder and a 250g bullet. The 1891 Ideal Handbook showed the 45 Colt's being loaded with 35g of powder and the same 250g bullet. Also, the 1899 Winchester catalog lists 45 Colt's having 38g of powder and a 255g bullet.

Dave

I really was hoping someone would share it!!! As you can tell, my computer skills as well as my writing skills are a bit lacking too !!!!

6 January, 1880
290610

[Oyeboten]

The original 45 Colt load for the Army was 30 grains with a 250 grain bullet as loaded by Frankford Arsenal. Testing with 40 grains proved to be too much. Later, Remington introduced its 40 grain civilian load. A persistent rumor has developed that the cartridge was designed to put down a horse, either the enemies or even your own. If anyone has a reference to the requirements document that specifies this, please post it. I’m convinced it never existed but is anecdotal based on the capability of the cartridge

I also doubt the "Put down a Horse" was ever anything but civilian banter, and figurative hyperbole meant merely to dramatize that fullest loading 45 Colt was a stout Cartridge, which everyone knew anyway.

[Castaway]

I’ve found testing done by the Army on the 1873 Colt and the Schofield. They shot them until they fouled out, immersed them in gunk, shot them again and a few other things. Not one horse was shot in the trial

[Gewehr-Guy]

I recall seeing an article on Army testing penetration on live and dead animals at the Chicago Stock Yards,maybe after the Philippine War?

[Castaway]

That was the Thompson-Legard testing done which selected the 45 ACP. Not only cattle were shot, but cadavers also