Thoughts on "Good Enough"

[Hick]

I couldn't find a category for this-- so I'll try here

On this forum there is a huge amount of great information on reloading, and how to get the best accuracy from reloads. There are soooooo.. many things you can do for precision shooting. The question becomes: "What is good enough?" That, of course, depends on what kind of shooting you plan to do. This post is an invitation to talk about "good enough."

I've been a little nervous about posting this, because I know there are a lot of strong opinions on the best way to reload. But, at 80,000 rifle and pistol loads so far, I have some experience. I finally decided to go ahead because I think it will make for an interesting and useful discussion.

Obviously, what ammo is "good enough" depends on what you intend to do with the ammo. So-- when you reply to this post, it would help if you tell us what standard of "good enough" you are working at, so we can learn what things you do to get there.

I shoot primarily for pleasure, open sights, once or twice a week at the local range, visiting with friends, and shooting primarily at metal gongs. At our range, the smallest gongs are 2-3 inches, and at 400 yards nothing bigger than about 12 inches. So-- my goal is to have fun at about 3 MOA. My rifles range from 223 Rem up to 303 British, military, levers and bolts. I shoot both cast and jacketed and at velocities from subsonic on up.

When you get right down to it, how you reload mostly affects the vertical size of your groups, because so many things directly or indirectly affect muzzle velocity. So, I do the things that keep my velocity variation down enough for 3 MOA shooting. Some of the things I read about for precision shooting turned out to be unnecessary for that level of accuracy. This is my list of what I do and don't do that gets me to 3 MOA.

Brass: I do not measure or trim my brass so long as the rounds will chamber. I also do not turn the necks. However, I do have dedicated brass for each firearm and only neck size. I also use the brass in sets of 50 that are all the same head stamp (consistent case volume).

Annealing Brass: I don't unless it is gift brass that has had unknown use. Most of my rifle cases (thousands) have a dozen or more reloads already and are still doing fine.

Setting up dies: I have set screws on all my dies and they are all permanently set for depth. I do not bother to readjust the dies each time I use them.

Neck Expanding: I use Lyman M dies. The M die seems to work best at expanding necks on brass that is not always the exact same length. Since I rarely trim my brass this is important to me. I try not to expand any more than necessary (helps prevent splits).

Gunpowder: I use a standard powder measure and nothing else (no powder trickler). Also, I drop the charges directly into the cases without weighing each charge. When dropping the powder, I check the powder measure about every 10 loads. That is, I drop 10 loads into cases, then weigh the 11th, then continue. As long as the weighed charge is within about 1 or 2 tenths of a grain I do not readjust the powder measure. After filling 50 cases, I shine a flashlight down into the cases looking for any inconsistencies.

Cast Bullets: I don't worry about whether the bullets are shiny or frosty. Also, I do not sort my cast bullets by weight and do not worry about whether the gas checks are absolutely square on the base. BUT, I do reject bullets that have obvious defects. I have Lee, RCBS, NOE, Ideal, and SAECO molds and they all seem good enough.

Alloy: I use a mix close to Lyman #2 for all rifle loads, and roughly 10:1 for my pistols. After making up a batch I check relative hardness. I squeeze a ball bearing between a new sample and a piece from an old batch that worked well in my firearms. If the dents in the two pieces are about the same I know the hardness of the new batch is similar.

Bullet Lube: I powder coat plain based bullets (Smoke's Clear) and use gas checks and traditional lube for gas check designs. My standard lube is equal parts of old Christmas candles and beeswax with Vaseline to make it slightly soft. I use this for all my rifle cartridges except 223 Remington. The 223 and all my pistol bullets are lubed with one coat of Ben's Liquid Lube.

When Powder coating I use the same size batch every time (50 bullets) and just set the oven dial to 400. Once the oven is pre-heated I put them in for 15 minutes. I do not use a thermometer to verify the oven temperature and I do not try to measure the internal temperature of a bullet in the oven. I check a few in each batch for good coating.

Primers: I use a hand primer and prime 50 cases in a batch. I always use the same brand and type of primer that I used in load development. I run my fingertips across the heads of the primed cases to see if they are all well seated.

Cartridge Overall Length: I adjust the seating die until the first cartridge is at the overall length I want, BUT, I do not measure the COL of each cartridge.

Loads: I use published starting loads and do load ladders to find the most accurate for each firearm and bullet combination. If the gunpowder I want to use is not listed I will only use it if there is good data for powders both slower and faster, and then only by starting low and working up carefully. I never push my cast bullets beyond 140,000 rpm.

Rifle cleaning: I take apart and detail clean my firearms every winter. During the shooting season I do not scrub the bores. I run a bore snake through the bore after each range trip. At my shooting frequency every winter amounts to about every 1000 rounds. Also, I do not scrub the bore when I switch between jacketed bullets and cast bullets.

[dverna]

Do what works for you. In my case, a 3 MOA standard is unacceptable for most shooting.

I have different standards for different applications.

For PCP rifles, under 2 MOA...1” @ 50 yards
For .223 bolt guns, under 1 MOA with jacketed
For .223 AR’s, under 1.5 MOA with jacketed
For .308 bolt guns, under 1.5 MOA with jacketed
For pistol caliber carbines, under 5 MOA with cast at 100 yards

There is no universal right answer. What you shoot and why you shoot factor into it.

Heck, I doubt we can even agree on how accuracy is determined....3, 5, or 10 shot groups? One group, or the average of 3, 5, 10 groups. MOA at 50, 100, 200, 400 yards? (Cast bullets rarely are linear in group size wrt range). Do we count “fliers”....or only “when we do out part”....God I hate that phrase.

[sghart3578]

I'm with you Hick. My reloading procedures are very close to yours.

What is good enough? Every one has a different answer I suppose. What follows is what works for me.

I shoot steel swingers also. I go to the target range to shoot paper only when I have a new rifle or I am trying a new mold/powder/load/scope/etc.

I don't really hunt any more but when I did I determined accuracy very simply. I would find a load that would group acceptably. Usually that was 2-2.5" MOA for 3 shots. Like my Winchester 70 that has taken 2 nice mule deer. 100 round sessions were not financially possible on an E-5's salary in 1985. I was a young father on active duty when I hunted a lot. In the 80's we didn't make a lot of money. So I would take 20 rounds and zero the rifle as best as I could.

Then the next time to the range with my kids and their 22's I would drag out the rifle that I would take on my next hunt and pick a target. I would then fire 2 shots as fast as possible. If they were close from a cold barrel I knew my rifle would perform. And it always did.

That same sense of frugality is still with me and it especially applies now that I am retired and on a fixed income and supplies are hard to come by and expensive.

All of my rifles are sighted in with specific loads. I take 2 or 3 at a time to the woods with my youngest son. We set up 3 or 4 steel plates at various distances and go to town. I usually shoot about 20 or 30 rounds per rifle.

I still shoot 1 careful shot followed by a quick follow up as if I was going after game. I then switch rifles or drink coffee while I spot for my son.


Steve in N CA

[BigAlofPa.]

Im happy with hitting 8 inch plates at 300 yards with my .223 and 30.06. At 100 yards i like tight as possible groups on paper. Hand gun off hand shooting. I like hitting cans at ranges that are practical for the gun.

[M-Tecs]

Everything mass produced is manufactured to a tolerance. Reloaded ammo is not any different. If it's safe and it functions while meeting your performance requirements it's good enough.

If you are a top level 1,000 yard Benchrest competitor your requirements are much different than a cowboy action shooter. I do both and for cowboy action even the junkiest ammo I can produce far exceeds my accuracy requirements for that game. If I could I would load rocks for cowboy action.

My Krieger Barreled AR's with hold 1/2 MOA at three hundred yards for 10 shot groups with minimal brass prep. I trim and chamber on a GIRAUD TOOL COMPANY power trimmer and anneal every third loading. These are loaded on a Dillon 1050 using the Dillon measure. Both the measure and the press have been tuned and brass is processed in two steps. Second time through it's primer seating, powder drop and bullet seating only.

My pre-64 94 is a 3 MOA gun. If I use my 1,000 yard Bench rest loading techniques its still a 3 MOA gun so anything beyond normal loads techniques is nothing more than a waste of time.

[FLINTNFIRE]

I like the premise , But there are a lot of do and do not in different things and a lot of I do this for this and that for that , Annealing , first it takes time and is a process all to its own , but for some brass it is a must , reloaded 308 years ago and for whatever reason there were neck splits .

Trimming , again for some yes for others no and once again a process all of its own same with primer pocket uniforming and inside flash hole deburring , the list goes on and on .

I myself would join you in so many ways what works with what at the time and do what you want time permitting and if it is needed or for trial and error or success , IN the end what works for one is what one should do , bench rest a lot of people go to the last little thing seeking the perfect group , the Houston warehouse bench rest experiments come to mind and his parting thoughts .

Is it repeatable and does it do what you want it to ? back to trimming 308 brass that has been annealed and resized and some will be turned into 7mm-08 , feel sorry when some one has to go through the amount of reloading stuff and say too much and wished he had this or that .

Muzzle loaders from flint to percussion and cartridge from black powder to semi auto rifles and same with pistols its all fun and has its own loading or preparation , find what works for you and stay the course and put a little or a lot away for the future of this our Republic and its salvation.

[358429]

Defining acceptable tolerance is humbling. Maybe I need to neck turn the 9x19 brass[emoji848][emoji39]

[Hick]

Do what works for you. In my case, a 3 MOA standard is unacceptable for most shooting.

I have different standards for different applications.

For PCP rifles, under 2 MOA...1” @ 50 yards
For .223 bolt guns, under 1 MOA with jacketed
For .223 AR’s, under 1.5 MOA with jacketed
For .308 bolt guns, under 1.5 MOA with jacketed
For pistol caliber carbines, under 5 MOA with cast at 100 yards

There is no universal right answer. What you shoot and why you shoot factor into it.



This is pretty much as I expected. Question: There are so many things reloaders do, but so little info on which things are most important for accuracy. Are there a few things you find most important to getting to your tougher standard that those at my level don't do?

[r80rt]

Good enough is good enough for me, I find a load I like and stick with it. Real world general purpose accuracy is fine with me.

[sharps4590]

Except for dedicated target rifles and Schuetzen rifles my rifle needs are for hunting with open sights at 50-75 yards and maybe 100 on a good day. At 50 yards with bolt rifles and single shot rifles I like to see an inch or less but, with drillings, double rifles and combination guns I'll take 2 inches in a heartbeat.

Last week I ordered a Husqvarna 1640 in 6.5 X 55 and will top it with a vintage Schmitt & Bender, 4X scope. It will be my first scoped rifle in years and from it I will work for 1 inch at 100 yards. Should be fairly easily attainable.

Schuetzen and target rifles, as tight as I can make them group and I'll fuss for hours with bullets and cases.

[Handloader109]

Well, in reality, good enough is when I chamber a load it goes bang and a bullet hits the target. I'm not nearly anal or at all good enough to think I could shoot 1 inch groups with factory ammo all the time and there is enough variation in our casting and reloading to make perfect impossible, especially for me. If it rings steel or hits the target. I did good. All the way through the process.

[Bent Ramrod]

I take a lot of pains with loading match ammo for target-grade rifles. Weigh boolits, check charge weights on a scale, keep cases trimmed, specify primers, etc, etc, etc.

I start out with the same approach when developing loads for guns for “fun shooting.” But in the latter case, once the load is developed, then the powder measure is set and only every tenth charge is checked to make sure it is “there or thereabouts,” primer brands are interchangeable, cases are trimmed or not, depending, and if the boolits aren’t perfect, well...I’d rather shoot them than melt them down and try again.

I’m amazed by the posters that seem to think everything has to be a target gun and load. In my twilight years, where time itself is becoming a tight commodity, my thinking has largely “evolved” from COL. Whelen’s “Only accurate rifles are interesting,” to COL. Cooper’s “If it were half as accurate as it is, it would still be twice as accurate as it needs to be.”

As long as I can “hit stuff” with it, it’s “good enough.”

[FLINTNFIRE]

I take a lot of pains with loading match ammo for target-grade rifles. Weigh boolits, check charge weights on a scale, keep cases trimmed, specify primers, etc, etc, etc.

I start out with the same approach when developing loads for guns for “fun shooting.” But in the latter case, once the load is developed, then the powder measure is set and only every tenth charge is checked to make sure it is “there or thereabouts,” primer brands are interchangeable, cases are trimmed or not, depending, and if the boolits aren’t perfect, well...I’d rather shoot them than melt them down and try again.

I’m amazed by the posters that seem to think everything has to be a target gun and load. In my twilight years, where time itself is becoming a tight commodity, my thinking has largely “evolved” from COL. Whelen’s “Only accurate rifles are interesting,” to COL. Cooper’s “If it were half as accurate as it is, it would still be twice as accurate as it needs to be.”

As long as I can “hit stuff” with it, it’s “good enough.”

Hear Hear and three cheers for the simplest explanation which nails it to a tee .

[Daekar]

I am still exploring loads, but I am very like the OP in that my needs aren't demanding. 100 yards, offhand only... I don't need tack drivers. I picked a straight walled case to play with specifically because it means much of the fiddly stuff required by bottlenecked cartridges isn't a thing for me to worry about.

I make sure new brass is in spec for length then never look at it again unless there is a problem.

I use carbide dies so I don't have to lube cases. The brass lasts forever anyway.

I use revolvers or single shots so my brass never gets dirty. I rarely have to wash or tumble it.

I weigh every tenth charge... approximately...my Hornady dropper seems to be very reliable.

Each gun has its own purpose and loads. Once I nail down a load, each box is labeled with its load and gun.

Half the fun is getting the most accuracy I can without tormenting myself with lots of sorting and prepping.

[GhostHawk]

If I really want accuracy, and the rifle is capable of it. I will hand weigh charges so they are all within 0.1 grain.
IMO the easy way is to use a dipper to get close, then scoop just a little and tap until the scale swings.

I like to citric acid wash and clean primer pockets. Technically not neccessary, but I prefer to spend the time and do it.

Weighing bullets will either make you a wicked good shot, or drive you insane. So I don't.

Neck trimming mostly I don't.

Really comes down to what floats your boat and how much your willing to invest in time per round.

[sghart3578]

I’m amazed by the posters that seem to think everything has to be a target gun and load. In my twilight years, where time itself is becoming a tight commodity, my thinking has largely “evolved” from COL. Whelen’s “Only accurate rifles are interesting,” to COL. Cooper’s “If it were half as accurate as it is, it would still be twice as accurate as it needs to be.”

As long as I can “hit stuff” with it, it’s “good enough.”

I'm with you on this one. I'm getting to the stage where I think that I have purchased the last keg of powder that I will ever need.

My time is precious with my great grandsons.

I like to quote one of the late members here, Junior Doughty. He had a great website that is still up. He said"I just want to cast up a pile of bullets and go shoot!"


Steve in N CA

[Larry Gibson]

I gots this hoop leaver thutty thutty that she don't do well on paper but by golly I can hit a running deer shooting off the side under the neck of my galloping horse across a canyon with 20+ mile per hour switching wind at 1,000 plus yards....I can put the bullet right through the heart ever shot........that there's what I call "good enough" fer me.......

:bigsmyl2:.........:kidding:

[sghart3578]

I gots this hoop leaver thutty thutty that she don't do well on paper but by golly I can hit a running deer shooting off the side under the neck of my galloping horse across a canyon with 20+ mile per hour switching wind at 1,000 plus yards....I can put the bullet right through the heart ever shot........that there's what I call "good enough" fer me.......

:bigsmyl2:.........:kidding:

Okay, that made me laugh!

[Daekar]

I gots this hoop leaver thutty thutty that she don't do well on paper but by golly I can hit a running deer shooting off the side under the neck of my galloping horse across a canyon with 20+ mile per hour switching wind at 1,000 plus yards....I can put the bullet right through the heart ever shot........that there's what I call "good enough" fer me.......

:bigsmyl2:.........:kidding:

This is the kind of post that makes me wish there was a way to up-vote.

[Shawlerbrook]

An old reloading mentor of mine used to say......are you painting a barn or painting a portrait. I load strictly for hunting and my goal is safe and functional rounds that are at least as good and probably better than factory ammo. I stay within the parameters in my loading manual, usually somewhere in the middle as far as power and try to be as uniform as possible. .1+/- of a grain of powder is my objective. In almost 50 of reloading I have never missed these goals. To each his own.

[deltaenterprizes]

When I had only one rifle I got it to make all of the holes touch.
I now have too many to develop a load like that for each one.
If I can get 1” @ 100 yards I am happy!

[Texas by God]

I use Lee powder dippers quite a bit along with my Redding measure and RCBS scale. I use mixed headstamp brass for 9mm, .38 Special, .45acp, and my AR15s. They all shoot great; last weekend my .223 AR put 5 shots in 3/4" of an inch at 100yds with 60gr Hornady soft point hunting loads. I haven't weighed every charge of powder for anything in years.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[Baltimoreed]

Minute of sass marshall for a lot of the ammo that I reload. If I get a longer range built on my new property I might stretch things out a bit but most of my current interest stuff is milsurp iron sights or red dots on pcc’s.

[Hootmix]

MOA ??? that means " Mouse or Armadillo " @ 50yds. or less , w/ my reloads ,, ( on a good day ) lol, lol.

coffee's ready Hootmix.

[Bill*B]

If you shoot from bench rest with a 20X scope, 3 MOA will disappoint. If you shoot with iron sights, hand held, 3 MOA is splendid, even from prone. An honest 3 MOA standing? In our dreams.

[1hole]

Occasional web claims of spectacular accuracy with factory rifles and hunting scopes shooting over the hood of a pick-up are often hilarious to me. How many posts have we all seen saying something like, "I weight charges to +/- .002 gr. and load over-the-counter bullets for my new RemChester in the new .288 Spectacular and they'll go into less than 1/2 MOA all day long if I do my part; big
deer will DRT every time."?

Gag. Anyone saying things like that will lie to us about other stuff too!

[Hickok]

Jerry Miculek said it best, "We are not after perfection, we are after precision!"

A firearm doesn't need to put every bullet into the same hole to be accurate for it's intended use.

[rbuck351]

I like my big game hunting rifles to shoot within 1 1/2" at 100 but if they don't I can always get a bit closer. With my varmint rifles I like under 1 moa.

[JohnH]

I was lucky when I was younger and working for a gun shop where we could take any used gun we wanted to shoot to the firing range and give it a go. What I learned in those years was that most any factory rifle with most any factory ammo was going to shoot somewhere around 2" groups at 100 yards. Once in a while you'd run into a combo that would hit that magic 1" for 3 rounds, but most of the time 2"-3" for 10 rounds was the norm and it would often take 5 shots to get 3 that would touch.

Handguns are another story, and mostly depend on how good the fella on the trigger can control the dang thing. High blood pressure, failing eye sight and COPD have joined forces to make my offhand shooting a mere shadow of what I could do 30 years ago. Red Dots and scopes improve things, but off hand with a pistol carbine, lever or bolt gun, 3" @ 50 yards is the best I can shoot shoot even when the load/gun is capable of less than half that at the same range. I can still hit an 8" plate at 100 off hand but I wouldn't brag about how good I am at it.

Took a couple of younger guys at work shooting spring of last year. Had a new guy come in and start talking about shooting and those two started talking up what a shot they thought I was. We were shooting handguns at about 15 yards and I was easily keeping everything on a 3" Post It note (I like using those for targets, cheap and versatile) I was shooting a lot of paper target then but our club was beginning to set up steels on the handgun range and I began spending a lot of time clanging away on those. Last weekend I tried my hand at those 3" Post It's for the first time in a while and was simply awful. Got to go back and do some tuning up.

What's accuracy? I expect to hit a 3" Post It at 25 Yards. Not necessarily on demand, but at least three of five (I load my handguns with 5 rounds, divides 50 evenly) Anything greater than 4" groups and I'm disappointed in myself especially with guns I've dumped a cylinder or mag into that 3" square often enough to think I'm pretty good at it.

Currently I'm banging away with a 308 Ruger American with a load pushing a 147 FMJ at a whopping 2230 fps. But it's stupid accurate shooting pretty regular into 4"-6" at 400 yards when the wind is light, and it don't beat the crap out of me so I can shoot 30 or 40 rounds and enjoy it. I can wear the man silhouette out with center of mass shots, head shots not so much, but I love to hear that clank. I've toyed with the idea of trying some cast on him, but haven't as yet.

I remember a story Mike Venturino related in an article some years ago, "I was at a gun show and a fella asked me what was the most accurate load for a 308. I mused that a man could burn a barrel up trying to find it's most accurate load" I also reflect a bit on what Col. Townsend once said "Only accurate rifles are interesting" since I question the veracity of that statement as I spend more time fooling with my inaccurate rifles than I do my accurate one's.

[rintinglen]

There's an old Russian proverb to the effect that "Best is the enemy of good." As has been said, how good is good enough depends entirely on what you are trying to do.

In the days if my youth, I knew an old fellow whose idea of practice for deer season was to put up a paper plate and then fire three shots, four or five times. The shots would be scattered over the plate. He'd look at that, smirk and say, "any one of those would do for a deer." In the woods of central Michigan, where a long shot was 75 yards, he was right. Now were he trying for a berth on the U.S. Rifle Team in the next Olympics, well that would be laughable. But for his uses, good enough.

[dverna]

This is pretty much as I expected. Question: There are so many things reloaders do, but so little info on which things are most important for accuracy. Are there a few things you find most important to getting to your tougher standard that those at my level don't do?

I read your first post again. On the reloading side of the issue, I trim rifle brass and you do not. I cannot say if it matters but it is easy enough to do so I do it. I plan on purchasing x-dies so trimmed cases do not require further trimming.

As to components, I cannot achieve acceptable rifle accuracy with cast bullets. For me it is a catch-22. I do not shoot enough .308 to justify the effort to make excellent cast bullets. The .308's are only used for hunting, so I do not need a cheap plinking round in that caliber. For "cheap" long range shooting, I use .223's and Hornady jacketed bullets that I purchase in bulk. https://www.armorally.com/shop/hornady-22-caliber-55gr-spire-point/

But the biggest difference between us is that I use a scope. I doubt 3 MOA is doable with normal iron sights, at least for me. If you can shoot 3 MOA with irons you are doing very well IMO.

IMO, an inherently accurate rifle and caliber makes accuracy relatively easy to achieve. The anal case prep done by the precision shooters is not needed to achieve the accuracy standards I have. Shaving 1/4 MOA might be nice, but it is not worth the effort. I doubt case prep will turn a 3 MOA gun/load into a 1.5 MOA performer.

The .223 and .308 are inherently accurate calibers so that makes things easier for me. That was one reason I went with those calibers. Also, brass is cheap and easily available so annealing is not that important to get costs down. Annealing might aid accuracy but as long I get the accuracy I want, why bother?

[AnthonyB]

Hick, my shooting is almost totally from field positions at targets within 100 yards using cast almost exclusively. 100 yards is a long shot here in northern AL, and cast bullets meet all my basic needs except for 5.56 ammo - those get the bullets Don linked. Going down your list:
1. I sort rifle brass by head stamp and trim regularly. Once sorted and loaded, brass remains in 50 round lots.
2. I only anneal brass being reformed to different calibers, and that is mostly 308 and 30-06 to 35 caliber. I have two 356 Winchester rifles that currently will not share ammo. I used to neck size for each rifle, but life is too short and I gave too many guns in the same calibers to maintain specific loads by gun.
3. I do load specific bullets for specific guns. The Redhawk and Blackhawks may get heavier 44 Mag loads; the Smiths do not. I have three GP 100 44 Specials; one has tighter throats that will have to be corrected in order to share ammo with the others.
4. I set up my dies every time I load and do not depend on the lock screws.
5. Agree on the M die or NOE expander for bottleneck rifle loads. Straight wall calibers get the expander in the die box.
6. We do EXACTLY the same thing with powder charging.
7. Agree on the cast bullets, with the exception of hunting ammo. Those bullets are as good as I can make them, and I like HPs for Alabama deer. Alloy is WW, sometimes with a little tin added.
8. Rifle ammo gets Felix lube from a Star nose first sizer. Pistol ammo gets whatever I have in the several different sizers until they run out; then they get Felix or Carnauba Red. I have a lot of Speed Green to use up as well. I do not powder coat.
9. I use an RCBS bench mounted primer or prime on the Dillons. Primer brand is interchangeable for most ammo, not with hunting loads.
10. I have been loading for a while and have standard loads for most calibers. New ones get middle of the loading data charges to start.
11. I spent my formative years in the military and clean after every range trip. I am TRYING not to, but old habits die hard.
9mm, 38/357, and 44 Mag brass also get sorted by head stamp and serious ammo is in store bought Starline brass. I carry cast bullets in AL around the house; jacketed when I go to town.
I have long range rifles for jacketed bullets but rarely use them.
Tony

[Rapier]

Next time I get a request to build a gun that only shoots “good enough” I will let you know.

[Harter66]

The best I can get is my standard .

Let me quantify that .

110 LH
I had an old 06' that was the Prima Donna . I pulled my hair out for over 2 years to get a load to shoot close enough for a 100 yd deer gun and when I figured it out and fixed it it suddenly was a sub MOA for 5 shot field groups over and over . That rifle demanded entry level match prep , with matched volume cases , neck size , I went ahead an did the the flash holes, checked neck dia , 3rd cycle anneal , etc .

110 E
At the other end of the scale I had a 308 that as long as the brass was the same HS and the bullets were within a grain or 2 it would shoot 2" within 4" of POA . With scaled loads and good bullets it would be well into sub MOA .

Santa Barbara 98 , A&B barrel , Fajin stock , with a GI 2 stage 4# trigger .
I tried 3 powders , 3 bullets , and 2 brass in a 358 Win with just necked up 308 FC , I tried some RP but that made everything worse . When the load hit which was kind of a surprise actually it was an instant MOA rifle .

I have had several PCCs .
If I get 2" at 50" and 2" at 25 yd with the same ammo from the companion pistols I'm a happy camper . I don't expect a lever gun to do better than 3" .

I had a 6" Sec 6 and JM 1894C that shot a field rested 3" 6 shot 50 yd group on my good days in the pistol and bettered that at 100 for the rifle .

Rossi 92's in 45 Colts with a 7.5" BH and a 3.5" N Frame 45 S&W . Both pistols as long as I avoid RP brass in the rifles and BH shoot leaning or knees rested 5" at 50 yd and smaller as it comes in . The rifles at 75 yd make hitting golf balls to 75 yd easy ...... Someplace between 78-82 yd with nominal 1000 fps loads in the BH depart line of flight by about 30° at 10:00 . If I back them down to 800 fps in the BH they do about 5" at 100 and that's ok I guess . Someday I'll get the rebarrel done and maybe the 1-16 twist vs the existing 1-32" will correct that .

45 ACP
1917 and High Point shoot the same groups at 25 and 50 yd .
The carbine is good for 50% on a 12×18 at 145 yd and really outside of making noise and scarring rabbits I can't think of a good reason to shoot that far with a 45 ACP .

I did shoot a 45-70 1895G a fair bit it is I guess something of a unique sample I understand having been assembled with a JM Ballard barrel in Illion .......
It established a 3.5" 100 yd base line with PPU 405s and assorted cast loads have done 3" at all sorts of load levels from 255 to 535 gr . I did get some 2" groups with the 458-201 Rapine which is a 255 RNFP PB turned up to 2000 fps which is an experiment I won't be repeating as I think I gave myself a concussion .

I guess I'm pretty much a sort head stamp , trim as needed , scale every load unless the measure drops demonstrate otherwise in rifles , and check the pistols 50 at a time for uniformity .

I work and load every load as if I were going to hunt with it with the idea in mind that I want a clean , well placed , terminal shot every time that meets the minimum terminal force I've worked with my whole life .

[charlie b]

Yep, all about what you want for your shooting.

First, I don't hunt. Used to but just not interested in it.

My pistols? If I can hit the center section of the silhouette at 25yd I am happy. If I ever have to use one it will be much closer than that ;)

Rifles. I like shooting small targets at longer ranges. Soda cans at 300-400yd. 5" gong at 500yd. When I really want to test myself I put a milk jug on the 1000yd berm. My goal for cast in the .308 is consistent MOA and competing in the CBA benchrest matches. I am close (1 1/2) but not there yet, ie, good days and bad days. Jacketed I expect sub-MOA and my .223 bolt gun is 1/2MOA. FWIW, I do not view this as 'benchrest' accuracy, just what is 'good enough' for me. Shooting in wind gives me the most trouble and is something I am working on. (5 round groups ;) ).

[Baltimoreed]

Honestly think that all of our groups will unfortunately enlarge with the current draught of components and the conservation of ammunition until who knows when.

[1hole]

I use carbide dies so I don't have to lube cases.

Does anyone make plain steel dies anymore?

[1hole]

I’m amazed by the posters that seem to think everything has to be a target gun and load. ......

As long as I can “hit stuff” with it, it’s “good enough.”

I get a bit astonished by that too. Considering that a 3" group at 100 means that any given shot will only be off the aim point no more than 1.5" from perfect makes 3" groups quite good enough for deer hunting.

I'm a technical kind of guy so I enjoy tinkering with mechanical stuff; working to get fine accuracy is fun. I can get .75" groups with my very lightweight Rem 700 Mountian Rifle in .30-06 when using high cost premium bullets. But, I load my deer ammo with common 150 gr. bullets because any better accuracy doesn't matter at all in the woods.

By definition, good enough is good enough and, for my actual needs, 3" groups are great and my deer never know the difference.

[1hole]

Next time I get a request to build a gun that only shoots “good enough” I will let you know.

Assuming you're a custom rifle smith, I have two realistic questions and some thoughts for your "good enough" consideration:

* First, I suspect most of us have several rifles chosen for what we will need for a given day in the woods and fields; I'm sure we would all like "1hole" accuracy from everything we own but do we really need that for what we actually do? I mean, people who are quite satisfied with the very good performance of most factory hunting rifles probably don't order many optimum level custom target rifles based on special single shot target actions do they?

* Second, your "I'll let you know" observation seems odd. You make me wonder what small percentage of us ever bothers with the great costs and frequent long waits for custom rifles to obtain what are, after all, small and effectively meaningless field accuracy gains that can only be consistently realized by shooting from a rock solid bench with special rests and sand bags, using impractical hunting 'scopes and very special handloaded ammo with all shots being fired under near perfect lighting.

(Last deer hunting magazine article I read said some 80% are taken in deep woods inside 75 yards and very few are taken passed 150 yards; my beloved old 336 Marlin deer rifle in .35 Rem with a low mounted original 2-5X Balvar isn't a status symbol but, with reloaded Remington 200 gr round nose core-lok bullets, it has repeatedly done all I asked of it for several decades. A long-range varmint rifle it isn't, but seems it's more than good enough for deer killing. I know that no .001 MOA rifle could have made them any deader and that's plenty good enough! :))

[gpidaho]

All in what you enjoy my friends, At my age (71) and having survived stage 4 cancer (thanks to my old mothers prayers) I'm not as steady as I once was. I would have to say that I'm a much better ammunition builder than my targets show. Now, I still do pretty good off the bench with good rests but offhand the minor shakes ruin the group. If your only sure of hitting the dirt but enjoying the outing "Close enough" Gp

[toallmy]

A few years ago , my wife was trying out a new to her handgun but having a little trouble knocking around the pop cans - when a buddy I shoot with said the 5 gal bucket counts .
Sometimes you just need a bigger target ......
She loves that handgun .