Simple question: 45-70 to size or not to size after PC?

[physeptone]

Greetings from New Zealand
I have a pretty straightforward question - I have searched the forum, but can't find a conclusive answer...

Background
I have been PCing 44mag, 45ACP for a number of years. All good. Cast, coat, size, shoot.
I am now about to start with 45-70.
I have the Lee 405gn RNFP mould, brand new ready for use. I have very ample supplies of COWW, SOWW, pure lead, tin to add to the mix (I typically use 49% COWW, 49% SOWW, 2% tin).
Rifle is Marlin 1895GS. (I haven't and don't have means to slug bore)

The issue I have is that I simply cannot source a Lee bullet sizer in this calibre. I would get a .457 one and use that to make all projectiles consistent, but given the world's shipping problems, the local reloading store hasn't had restock of Lee items for months and months. No end in sight.

The question
What is likely to happen if I use unsized PC'd projectiles?
Inconsistency I guess? Limited risk from what I read. Anything else to be wary of?
TIA

[725]

I would be concerned that an unsized & coated bullet would be rather large. If it fits in your throat / chambers, that would be good. To slug the barrel, all you have to do is pound a soft lead plug in one end and drive it through to the other. Oil it - be gentle - and be careful not to mar any surfaces.

[Castaway]

Any chance you could scrounge a Lee sizer and open it up?

[405grain]

The normal size for a 45-70 bullet is .458" Why would you size it .457"? If the cast bullet is under sized not only will it be inaccurate, but the gas blow-by will encourage leading of the barrel. With a cast bullet, a diameter of .459" might be more desirable. As a general rule, if an unsized bullet will chamber, it will probably shoot. However, for best accuracy it's usually better to size the slug. Besides Lee, NOE makes a push-through sizer. When I first started out I just machined a bushing with a .459" hole, smoothed the edges, then pushed the bullets through it with an arbor press. You can probably shoot your unsized bullets with good results, but you'll probably have better results sizing them.

[Dom]

I cast bullets ( RSBS 405gr GC ) for my Marlin 45-70 , with Ballard deep Grove rifling. I cast, PC then size, .460. They shoot great, 1400 to 1500 fps. Old scrap WW is all I use. BHN 10.5. To not size could drive pressures way up. kind of like a bore obstruction, I would think.

[Petander]

Titan will ship.

Grab the .457 and open it up to .4585. Works for my Marlin 1895 SBL.

https://www.titanreloading.com/product/457-lee-bullet-lubricating-sizing-kit/

[iron brigade]

I shoot the Lee 405 HB hi-tek coated and sized to .459 in my marlin 1895 CB using 31 grains of I4198. Velocity is about 1300 fps. Accuracy is about 1"-1.5" at 100 yards. WW alloy +2% tin.

[Wayne Smith]

Slugging your bore is easy. Drill a half inch hole in a piece of hardwood. Melt some of your pure lead and pour in hole. Remove lead plug and drive it gently through your oiled bore, NOT using a wooden dowel. Catch the resulting plug on a soft cloth and measure it.

[Toymaker]

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1193/1/LEE-SIZE-458
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1193/1/LEE-SIZE-459
Slugging the bore is really easy. Someone said oil the bore, I found grease to work a little better. I have found unsized coated bullets give me better groups in my rolling block.

[physeptone]

The normal size for a 45-70 bullet is .458" Why would you size it .457"?

Because that's the size Lee make :lol: Yes, I would open it up a bit


Titan will ship.

Great, thanks for the heads up, never tried Titan


Slugging your bore is easy. Drill a half inch hole in a piece of hardwood. Melt some of your pure lead and pour in hole. Remove lead plug and drive it gently through your oiled bore, NOT using a wooden dowel. Catch the resulting plug on a soft cloth and measure it.

Brilliant, thanks for this advice - that's what these forums are for.
I can easily make the lead this way :) (I thought I would need a ball mould in a calibre I would never use)
The only issue is obtaining a brass rod here........

[physeptone]

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1193/1/LEE-SIZE-458
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1193/1/LEE-SIZE-459

Very helpful, thanks

[scattershot]

Slugging your bore is easy. Drill a half inch hole in a piece of hardwood. Melt some of your pure lead and pour in hole. Remove lead plug and drive it gently through your oiled bore, NOT using a wooden dowel. Catch the resulting plug on a soft cloth and measure it.


What do you use in place of the woodn dowel?

[white eagle]

why not size
to use unsized boolits in you firearm goes against the grain
of what you are trying to do
namely accurate cast projectiles that said if your gun shoots
probably oversized boolits accurately then go for it
I have not had that luxury but everyone has a different experiences
pc size check and shoot has been what works for me

[Hitnmiss]

I second the NOE "Push Through Size Die Body.

"https://noebulletmolds.com/site/product-category/sizing-tools/bushing-push-through-size-die/push-through-size-die-body/

Body Bushing

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/sizing-tools/bushings/45cal-rifle-bushings/45cal-r-460-body-bushing-b460/

Push Rod

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/sizing-tools/bushings/45cal-bushings/45cal-push-rod-45pr/

Nice thing about NOE, you just need the bushing and push rod for another cal and you are off and running.

[3DKiwi]

Don't bother with trying to get anything from NOE, He's a nice guy, but way to busy, I gave up trying to get my order sent by him, not helped by him using USPS which aint shipping to NZ at the moment.

I have had the same issue getting sizing dies, in fact just about anything related to my new 38-55 Uberti 94. Scotty from Reloaders sorted me a couple of smaller dia LEE dies and got them reamed out to my desired dimensions. Works a treat.

[oley55]

What do you use in place of the woodn dowel?

a brass rod, especially if u plan to do a pound cast of throat. for 30 cal I use a 1/4” brass rod and because I am anal I used some heat shrink to take up most of the slop so that it won’t slap the bore.

with brass you can peen the end so that your rod fits the bore. over peen on purpose and then file off until it will just fit. this keeps the lead slug from from flowing back up around the rod and wedging everything in the barrel.

I’d think a 3/8” rod would work with a peened business end and some heat shrink to. cushion the slapping.

[Petander]

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1193/1/LEE-SIZE-458
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1193/1/LEE-SIZE-459
Slugging the bore is really easy. Someone said oil the bore, I found grease to work a little better. I have found unsized coated bullets give me better groups in my rolling block.

I'd go this route. Didn't know about these custom sizes. Shipping costs are ridiculous (52 USD to Finland) but at least they have sizers in stock and ship.

Last time I bought two NOE expander plugs ,6.50 USD each, I paid $32 for shipping flat rate envelope. Then the customs charge for total (shipping+goods) was $15. Funny that you pay vat for shipping costs,too.

[Toymaker]

physeptone & Petander - another option is to "beagle" a mold to make it slightly larger. Do a search about how to beagle a mold. This is a temporary change that can be undone at any time. It results in a slightly oval bullet which is then fed through a sizer of the appropriate diameter. I read the thread about this several years ago. For a 45-70 I could find the sizer I needed but not the right sized mold for the bullet I wanted to use. I "beagled" the mold and it worked perfectly.

[popper]

Just grease a pure PC coated and pound through the bore - doesn't have to be round.

[Petander]

physeptone & Petander - another option is to "beagle" a mold to make it slightly larger. Do a search about how to beagle a mold.

Or just buy a proper mold in the first place. I have loaded cast 45-70 since the 90's, it's one of my favorite calibers. I have maybe six molds now, 325-570 grainers, an NLG etc.

[murf205]

Because that's the size Lee make :lol: Yes, I would open it up a bit



Great, thanks for the heads up, never tried Titan



Brilliant, thanks for this advice - that's what these forums are for.
I can easily make the lead this way :) (I thought I would need a ball mould in a calibre I would never use)
The only issue is obtaining a brass rod here........

I have slugged a lot of guns with a hard wooden dowel. We are not talking about POUNDING on the dowel but tapping. I use an unsized cast boolit and oil the barrel with gun oil generously and start the slug nose first with a small plastic mallet. With the rifle held securely and the base tapped in almost flush with the muzzle, I take a piece of dowel about 5" long to get the base of the slug started and when 4 inches is in the bore, switch to about a 12" piece the go to a 16" piece and so on until the slug comes out the chamber end. The idea is to not have a lot of unsupported dowel outside the barrel. Another person really helps to steady the gun or put it in a padded vise. A 3/8" wooden dowel is .375 and a 7/16" is .438 and if they are made correctly, they wont cost you a lot to buy several. I have heard all the horror stories about wooden dowels splitting but in many years of doing this I have never split one and I only use oak dowels. Just remember to take the short piece of dowel out and replace it with the longer pieces and never try to drive the shorter one with the longer. In your Marlin, if it has the Ballard, or non-microgroove rifling, I am betting that the .459 sizer is going to work for powder coating and Track of the Wolf does ship to NZ.290611 Here is a 3/8" oak dowel with a .40 S&W case on the end that fits in the barrel of my Marlin 45/70 just right.

[GregLaROCHE]

As everyone has been saying you need to slug the bore. It’s not that hard. I’ve heard some people use fishing weights to push through that are normally soft lead. After you get that measurement, you should cast and PC the boolit for the mold you have. You may get lucky and and not have to size at all. If the boolit PCed is not large enough you can try giving it another coat of PC or looking into beguiling the mold. Otherwise, you may need a new mold the correct size.
This is the best way to get the maximum potential from your rifle and without leading. There are different opinions on how much to oversize the boolit. Use the search box to help decide what you want to do. PCed boolits are very forgiving and as long as it can easily chamber the round it will probably work, but to get the best out of the rifle you should do the measurements.

[Petander]

I have the Lee 405gn RNFP mould, brand new.



The question
What is likely to happen if I use unsized PC'd projectiles?


What size does it drop? If you get like 459 I'd coat a bunch and shoot first.

[mehavey]

Really dumb questons:
1. What size are your bullets now dropping from the mould -- unsized ?
2. What size are your PC'd bullets -- unsized ?
3. Have you actually loaded/fired an unsized PC'd bullet ?

(FWIW: I'm shooting 0.459" and 0.460" out of a Marlin GBL)