Lyman M die vs. Lee universal expander: Seeking comparisons

[El Bibliotecario]

What, if anything, will the Lyman M expander die do when loading cast bullets in 30-06 cases that the less expensive Lee universal expander die cannot do? I am hoping for responses from those who have used both.

I am assuming that since the Lee die is billed as 'universal' it can also be used with the .30 caliber carbine round. I am guessing this is not true of the Lyman M die for 30-06 since Lyman catalogs a separate .30 carbine M die.

[Mk42gunner]

The Lee die only flares the case mouth, it doesn't really expand the neck.

The Lyman M-die expands the neck, then has a step a few thousandths of an inch larger to allow easy projectile alignment and seating. If you go deep enough with the M-die, it also will put a flare on the case mouth, but that usually isn't needed.

I'm not sure the M-die for the .30-06 will adjust down short enough for the .30 Carbine. The die body for the 06 is probably the long one. It also depends what diameter cast bullets you are planning to use.

I have used the M-die from the .32 S&W/H&R die set for the .30-30 and .308 Win, but I was loading .311" boolits in them.

Good luck, now that I have confused you further, hopefully someone will be along shortly to really answer your question.

Robert

[El Bibliotecario]

Not confusing at all. The total neck expansion v. flaring only the mouth is obviously the basic difference. I am assuming a Lyman M die ordered for 30-06 will expand the neck enough to comfortably accept .309 bullets...or is the expander sized for .308?

[sigep1764]

Librarian, the M die is available with a lot of different sizes of expanders. However, they are rather expensive when compared to the Lee Universal Expander die paired with the NOE neck expanding inserts. The inserts from NOE are less than half the M die inserts. And you can get custom sizes from NOE. These are all I use for 380, 9mm, 223, 270, 30-30. And the 30-30 insert will work for most .30 calibers. Same for the other inserts with calibers that require the same diameter.

[Walks]

The Lee expander does not work very well in My experience. I only tried it one time for 7mm Mauser.
Tossed it and bought a Lyman M-Die. A world of difference.
I think if I was starting over I would go with N.O.E.

[pworley1]

I use both and like both. I use the Lee die when loading 308 or 309 bullets. If I an loading larger diameter 30's I use the M die. I make my own expander stems to match the size bullet I am using.

[GWS]

The difference is whether you want to fiddle with angled bullets and having to straighten them and hand feed them into your seater. The "M" step is better called a pocket, because that's what it does. In the pocket bullets can fly fairly fast around a progressive merry-go-round and not tilt. Good luck with the flared only tool.

I'm not a Lee hater, but I'd like to see an 'M' style expander in their corral. NOE has them, Mr. Bullet Feeder has them, RCBS has them, and maybe others.....just a flare is yesterday technology, only adequate if you like nurse-maiding each bullet vertically into the sizer.

RCBS has used them on their powder-through expanders for pistol for several years. (and M.B.F. does too).

RCBS recently released a tube RIFLE bullet feeder (for .223 and .308) that includes an "M"die to be used in station 2 to expand and make a pocket for the tube feeder die to drop bullet in. Don't know if it could be adjusted out enough for 06. I'll have to check that out.

[gwpercle]

I have both , in 30 cal. , I load 30-30 , 30-06 and 7.5 Swiss (w/ .308" dia. boolits).

The M-die makes a 2-step flair which is geared straight fo the cast lead boolit , it does a neck expand and flair and was an answer to my cast boolit seating problems .

The Lee Universal Neck Expander is misnamed... it simply puts a flare onto the case mouth ... It should be Universal Neck Flaring Tool ... but , two things , Sometimes all you need is a flare , I flare a lot of pistol cases to seat cast boolits , they are short and don't need an M-die neck expansion .
The second thing is NOE sells expander plugs that act as M-dies and you put these plugs in the Lee Universal Die body ... this is good because NOE sells the plugs for a fraction of the cost of a Lyman M-Die and NOE sells them in a plethora of different sizes . The Lyman M-Die comes in one size , you order by caliber ...30-06 or 30-30 ...no choice of expander size is given , you get what they send .
The M-Die and NOE M-die expander plugs are almost required in rifle loading and helpful in a lot of handgun loading .
NOE may even now sell a die body to go along with their expander plugs ...
They do make life easier !
Gary

[Wilderness]

A purpose for the M Die not yet mentioned: I am one of those people who does not trim (or crimp) .30-30 cases. Cases of varying length, or even with crooked mouths (I do deal with those), after they have been through the M Die all have equal length of bullet gripping neck. The variation is quarantined to the mouth end that has been expanded beyond gripping. Set the die up for the shortest cases.

[El Bibliotecario]

All of the responses have been useful.

I just discovered the following in the Lyman M die user comments on the Midway website:
"...an M die is often not needed if your load [sic]very hard bullets with gas checks, as those are harder (won't deform) as they pass down the case neck."

Given that my 30-06 bullets are gas checked and cast from pure linotype, and that I manually align each bullet during seating, and that I have never noted a major problem with bullet alignment or lead shaving, am I looking for a solution to a non-existent problem?

[Hick]

The Universal die supposedly helps you get by with fewer dies-- but you can do similar with the M die. To explain: I have a 30-30 M die. It has that little step to open the case mouth a few thousandths. I use the 30-30 M die for all my 30-06 cases without readjusting the die, because, as I raise the ram on the press I can feel the 30-06 case mouth hit the little expanding step and know to stop there. I prefer the M die used this way because it is consistent but does not require the cases to all be perfectly trimmed in length.

[sigep1764]

All of the responses have been useful.

I just discovered the following in the Lyman M die user comments on the Midway website:
"...an M die is often not needed if your load [sic]very hard bullets with gas checks, as those are harder (won't deform) as they pass down the case neck."

Given that my 30-06 bullets are gas checked and cast from pure linotype, and that I manually align each bullet during seating, and that I have never noted a major problem with bullet alignment or lead shaving, am I looking for a solution to a non-existent problem?

I load hard gas checked boolits for the 223 and still expand the neck of the cases. Same with 30-30.

[uscra112]

I have both. The main drawback of the M die is that the expander mandrels available from Lyman won't necessarily be right for your bullets. No matter for me, I make custom mandrels from medium-strength allthread available from McMaster-Carr.

The Lee "Universal Expander" as delivered is a joke, but it's easy to make or buy proper expander mandrels for it. I have also made inserts that swage .22 LR ammo to improve accuracy, inserts that turn it into a seater for my .25 Stevens RF project, even a set of dies for the long-obsolete .28-30-120 Stevens round.

I'm not buying the Lyman die anymore, since I can make anything I want for the Lee die body. Lacking a lathe, I'd still buy a Lee die or three (they're much cheaper) and go to the NOE site for expander mandrels.

.28-30 toolkit on left, a homebrew Lyman M-die mandrel on the right.

[Wayne Smith]

Guys, the Lyman M body die comes in two sizes, long and short. You can use the same expander in both - thus the 30-06 expander can be put in the short body die and used for the carbine or for .30 pistol cases as well.

Yes, there is no comparasion between the Lyman and the Lee dies - they are two separate ideas accomplished in two separate ways to solve a single problem. Lyman does it much better.

[Yooper003]

I have both & use both. For the small cost I would not be without the Lee case mouthexpander.
Many times I have thought cases were fully prepared & a d filled with powder only to find I was shaving just a bit of lead. Just bumping the case mouth a thousands or two saved the day. Then bumping back with crimp die & done.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

My 30 cal 'M' dies from Lyman have consistently measured .3065 with a .3095 step. My 31 caliber Lyman is .3095 with a .312 step. NOE makes 'M' type expander plugs that work in the Lee Expanding Die. The NOE expanders are available in many different diameters for most popular calibers, I use a .307/.311 (?) for most of may 30 cal .309 and .310 bullets(not in my shop).

[1hole]

Lee calling their die a universal "expander" is silly. They could have saved a lot of confusion if they had simply called it what it is; it is no more or less than a case mouth FLARING tool! It can be useful at times so I have one but a neck EXPANDER, as such, it certainly is not.

IMHO, Lyman's "M" expander plugs (and the RCBS, REDDING, etc, copies) are the best expanders on the market; I have one for every cartridge I reload, including jacketed stuff. ONLY that two-step mouth expander plus flare design insures that bullet bases will have a smooth entry into the necks; that helps concentricity AND protects bullet's delicate heels!

(I won't mention all the neet little reloader things such as custom expanders I make on my old metal lathe because, sadly, few of you have one so what I can do in my little home shop means nothing at all to you. ???)

[El Bibliotecario]

As one of the latheless I appreciate the many useful comparisons of the off the shelf dies.

[Yooper003]

I have several neck expander inserts that I purchased from Track of the wolf. They work good also.

[ndnchf]

I love the Lee Universal Expander Die BODIES, but not the guts. I make my own neck sizer bushings, seater parts, compression plugs and 2-step expander plugs like this one. I probably have 20 of these Lee dies, each set up for a specific use. TOTW and NOE fill the needs for many, but there are times when making your own is the only option.

[oley55]

As one of the latheless I appreciate the many useful comparisons of the off the shelf dies.

^^^what he said. Latheless, I like that.

[BigAlofPa.]

I use my lee expander to fix out of round case openings.

[GregLaROCHE]

NOE makes expanders that fit in the Lee body. They work great and are offered in a number of sizes and not very expensive. You will have to size the case first.

[trapper9260]

Guys, the Lyman M body die comes in two sizes, long and short. You can use the same expander in both - thus the 30-06 expander can be put in the short body die and used for the carbine or for .30 pistol cases as well.

Yes, there is no comparasion between the Lyman and the Lee dies - they are two separate ideas accomplished in two separate ways to solve a single problem. Lyman does it much better.

I was going to post about the 2 size of Lyman , till I seen your post. I had got the long one and I use it for all my 30 cal.

[Wayne Smith]

I have both and switch back and forth frequently, especially in quarter bore. 25-20 and 25 Krag AI that I'm feeding.

[bedbugbilly]

apples and oranges

I have both - over the years, the Lee has been used for certain things but it flairs - not like the M die. I spent a bit of money on M-dies - especially for rifle cartridges - all I shooy is cast. A few months ago, I purchased a good selection on the NOE expanding plugs that work in the Lee Universal Expander die - they work great. IMHO - that is the way to go.

I'm not being critical of the Lee die - it's nice to have when you need it - for want of a better description - it taper flairs so I kind of compare it to a shoehorn.

[RogerDat]

I buy a Lee Expander and NOE insert for most calibers I load. The consistency I feel on seating die station tells me the difference getting consistent neck tension makes. I would say I see it on target but that would require shall we say facts not in evidence, better ammo don't make me a better shot but I will say the larger mold and sizing die and neck sizing adds up to more consistent accuracy than store bought.

I have a few turrets set up with "special" dies. Universal decapper AND a Lee Universal expander are two dies on those special turrets. When I remove primers for cleaning and have a mouth that is a little distorted a quick twist of the turret to the expander allows me to bump the mouth and confirm the case can be given a round mouth again. Avoids issues when I'm feeding the brass to a form die later.

The Lee "expander" prevents lead shaving, nothing more, nothing less. Should provide the least amount of flaring needed to accomplish that. Well maybe it makes it a bit easier to get the bullet positioned upright when seating in addition to preventing lead shaving. I adjust so the die does very little working of the mouth of the case.

The NOE is providing consistent neck tension matched to the bullet. Makes things more consistent and as others have pointed out avoids squeezing your carefully sized lead projectile down to some default case neck diameter. My first was for 303 British cast at .314 for a reason, wasn't going to be leaving the case mouth at .314 if not for the neck expander because .312 is "normal" bullet the case sizing die is made for.

[El Bibliotecario]

After digesting the above useful information...

RE the NOE expander plugs and their descriptions: If one is loading .309 bullets, does one order the .309 x .305 plug, or must one
calculate the clearance factor and order the .310 x .306 plug?
(I am assuming the second figures (.305; .306 are the length of the actual plug??)

Am I correct assume all I will need is a Lee Expander (actually flaring) die and the NOE plug of the appropriate size, which will drop into the Lee die and work without needing anything else?

[uscra112]

For .309 cast bullet select .312x308. But that one is out of stock so maybe get .313x309?

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/product-category/expanders/expander-plug-rifle/page/2/

Yes, all you would need is the Lee die and the NOE expander plug.

The larger number is the upper part of the plug which opens the first few thousandths of the case mouth oversize to guide the bullet as you seat it. Same as the Lyman plug does.

[jetinteriorguy]

For .309 cast bullet select .312x308. But that one is out of stock so maybe get .313x309?

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/product-category/expanders/expander-plug-rifle/page/2/

Yes, all you would need is the Lee die and the NOE expander plug.

The larger number is the upper part of the plug which opens the first few thousandths of the case mount oversize to guide the bullet as you seat it. Same as the Lyman plug does.
Thanks for this tidbit of information, I’ve always wondered what their numbers meant but keep forgetting to call and ask. So basically the first number is the ‘flare’ diameter and the second number would be the number needed for whatever bullet diameter you need.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I started out using the Lee universal die for my 308 and 30-30 loads. It made a rather crude bell on the case mouths but did not promote concentric boolit seating. I then switched to the Noe expanders ( you use these with the Lee die body) and they worked much better.

[sghart3578]

I must be doing something wrong. I use Lee expander dies in all of my rifle loads and I have yet to seat a bullet crooked.

I'll try again today, I am loading 75 rounds of 308.

[Char-Gar]

RCBS makes a 30 cal neck expander that also bells the mouth a smidge. They offer a variety of spuds that screw into the die to give a wide variety of inside neck diameters that will cover all cast bullet needs.

[243winxb]

Since 2010 RCBS pistol expanders have been "M" type? So i read. True or false? My new 2021 9mm Luger has the M expander.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/rcbs-expander-m-type-9mm-strange-black-coating.3604/full

For the 30-06 the Lyman M die is the one i used

[farmbif]

I have 3, the lee universal, the Lyman universal and m dies, for most calibers I end up using the m dies.
they will all work once set up properly

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I must be doing something wrong. I use Lee expander dies in all of my rifle loads and I have yet to seat a bullet crooked.

I'll try again today, I am loading 75 rounds of 308.

Try rolling your loaded rounds on a flat surface and watch from the side.

[GWS]

Since 2010 RCBS pistol expanders have been "M" type? So i read. True or false? My new 2021 9mm Luger has the M expander.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/rcbs-expander-m-type-9mm-strange-black-coating.3604/full

For the 30-06 the Lyman M die is the one i used

The only RCBS pistol expanders that have the "M" shelf, that I know about, is the powder-through expanders made to drop into Uniflows. I don't think any of their expander plugs that go into an expander die do....that I'm aware of anyway. The exception is the new rifle expanders.

The new rifle expanders that come with the new Tube Rifle Bullet Feeder dies definitely do. I tested one a while back and liked it so well I bought the .308 version too. The single .223 bullet stuck straight, with no bullet stack necessary even. So far they only come in .223 and .308. Noe plugs in the Lee expanders are the only show in town for pistol expander dies beyond RCBS's and DAA's Powder through expanders in Uniflows or Dillon powder measures. (that I'm aware of)

Test video below....single bullet (no stack) with case first expanded with their M style expander:

https://vimeo.com/268105982

Nice straight hold held well enough for any progressive merry-go-round.

[GhostHawk]

The problem with the M dies is you need a seperate one for each and every caliber.

Granted the Lee does not do the same thing. But you can buy one reasonably priced die and get by.

[GWS]

The problem with the M dies is you need a seperate one for each and every caliber.

Granted the Lee does not do the same thing. But you can buy one reasonably priced die and get by.

I suppose we all have less or more aggravation tolerance. Mine is lower....that's why I have two progressives.....and my progressives have separate removable die holders.......one for each caliber. Even if I was able to "tolerate" the Lee Universal Expander, I'd have to have one for each die head. I'd much rather have an "M" style expander on each than one that just bevels, and allows each bullet to tilt and have to be fed into the seater by hand.

And how many of us have experienced bitten, or pinched fingers being a little too slow getting them out of the way, while trying trying to load with some semblance of smooth and continuous operation.

I suppose if you load with a single stage you can "get by"and patience is your virtue.

[Savvy Jack]

a homebrew Lyman M-die mandrel on the right.

I like it!!! I cut a spare die so I could run my M die down where I could see it when I bellowed out my 44-40 cases. I like yours a lot!!!

[GregLaROCHE]

NOE has a great system and it doesn’t cost much to have several different different sizes to experiment with. You will need to buy a Lee universal sizer the get a die body to put them in. If you want, buy the Lee first and try it. Then if you want, buy the NOE inserts.