40 s&w to 44 boolits?

[sav300]

Hi Folks,My idea is to swage 40 s&w cases without cores then pour pure lead into them with a dipper and then weigh them.Then adjust weight by scrapping off excess.I know its a lot of stuffing around.
Hey it`s learning and fun.:-D[smilie=1:
Lionel
:castmine:
Forget to say it is for a.444 marlin.

[kawalekm]

Doing it that way will give you about a 270 grain bullet. I also tried something like that and was not so impressed with the results. I dipped cases into molten lead, then set them aside to solidify. I swaged them after cooling back to room temperature. The problem is that you get such high weight variation trying to fill the case. I got much better results by first casting a .40 caliber truncated cone in pure lead, dropping that into a case, then swagging.
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r55/kawalekm/Swaged44bullet.jpg
Bullets came out very consitant that way.
Michael

[kawalekm]

After giving this idea more thought, I realized that what you are suggesting is not possible by swaging. In swaging, the diameter of the bullet is being bumped UP. A typical .40 S&W case mikes at .424" to .425", several thousands less than the .429"-.430" needed for the .444 barrel. In swaging, the lead core pushes the jacket outwards, always enlarging the diameter. Without a fluid core, there's nothing to push the jacket walls outwards. An empty jacket (or a case) can be drawn to a smaller diameter, but cannot be swaged to a larger diameter. To swage the case up to .429 you have to start with the lead core already in place.
Michael

[MIBULLETS]

If you don't swage the core first before putting the bullet into the point forming die you will probably end up with a loose core as well as being under sized as kawakekm said. Lead will actually shrink a little as it cools.

[sav300]

Kawalekm,Thats what I would like to make.With my reloading press and swage gear I cannot reform the 40s&w cases to the size and shape you have pictured.

MIBULLETS,You are right.

Gentlemen,thank you.
Lionel

[sav300]

Kawalekm,The .40 truncated cone,is it a Lee .40/170?And how do you size-swage the 40s&w brass to remove the groove?If not ,a lee should work.
Thanks
Lionel

[acemedic13]

That is a sweet looking bullet kawalekm!! I am really interested in swaging but, I know nothing about it. I have read and talked, but yet to do it. It looks like the lead goes in upside down, and the brass up. Then the lead is "mashed" into the case/jacket.

Would that bullet in those pics be possible to make for a 44 mag?? I am quite sure the die is out there by Corbin or C&H.

Is the bullet on the far right a factory bullet shown for comparison? Also, does the base of the casing effect the way the bullet flies?Thanks......Joel

[Pete D.]

kawalekm: Very nice. What die did you use for that?

Pete

[MIBULLETS]

Were the cases heated first to soften the brass? It looks like the case actually folded over the extractor groove, is that right? They look like they would be quite devastating to what ever they hit. Real nice!

[merrden]

These look awesome!! How about complete instructions? I got thousands of 40 s&w cases and no gun or molds. I need lots 0f 44s Hollow points heh heh heh!! How do they perform?
Please advise.

[fivegunner]

I to would like to make these bullets could you teach us how its done? and what dies to get?? thanks :castmine::Fire:

[kawalekm]

I started with regular .40 S&W brass that I heated red hot on the kitchen stove. After cooling I dropped in a .40 caliber TC bullet (Lyman) cast in pure lead. I used CH .44 caliber core-seating, and swaging dies in a RCBS rockchucker press. Final bullet diameter mikes at .429" with a weight of 245 grains. If you flip the bullet over and look at its base you can still read the caliber and manufacturer information. The extraction grove collapes itself during swaging. The bullet on the far right is a Sierra 240 grain hollowpoint for comparison. I just can't wait to test this bullet during deer season. Hopefully, the bullet will be recovered from the deer if I get a shot. That would be a great end to the whole story.
Michael

[only1asterisk]

Guess who just ordered those dies in .44 and .40...

[luober]

to KAWALEKM:

when you heated the 40 cal cases to anneal them did you air cool them or quench them in water?

[BT Sniper]

Hello everyone,

I have been following this project since Kawalekm posted results early last spring. It too convinced me to purchase the dies from CH. I have no prior casting or swaging experance and my learning curve was rather steep. I have been leary to post results for fear a run on 40 S&W cases and lead will limit the supply. It has been that much fun and rewarding! Also frustrating at times. I broke 3 presses, all not up to the challange. Finally bought a Redding Big Boss press now all is well. I followed previous advise and purchased a Lee bullet mould with 20lb melting pot. The CH dies are not rated above pure lead and all I have is wheel weights. This has been the reason for my troubles, but with a little trial and error I am now swaging 250 gr .429 bullets for my 44 mag with hard lead core. I had to make some stonger componets for the dies as the wheel weights will in fact cause damage to the smaller parts in the die.
Just got back from range with good results from these bullets. Shot just as good as the Hornady 240 xtps at 1350 fps. Shot into dry newspaper all held their core while half the xtps shed theirs.
Process should also work for 40 cal with 9mm cases for jackets.
As far as the cost:
$15 lee bullet mould
$40 melting pot
$125 CH dies
Found 40 S&W $20 per thousand
Free wheel weights
possible new press
So about $200 investment for me and now have nearly 4,000 bullets. Certainly less than factory and very rewarding yet time consuming. Lets face it who knows how much ammo will be in future.

Thanks to all who have posted helpfull info on this sight. I am all ready thinking up new projects (.338 riffle bullet from .223 brass case). I will post some pics as soon as I figure out how. Feel free with any ?s Oh ya, sorry for any spelling errors. It is way to late out west.

Good shooting

[MIBULLETS]

BT Sniper,
I have made some 358 rifle bullets from 223 brass. I first had to trim the cases off at about 1" long, heated them red hot to soften them, then ran the case through a jacket reducing die (223 cases are about .375") to reduce them to about .355. After that just seat the core and point them up. The cases cut to 1" make me around a 225 gr bullet in 358 caliber.

M1 carbine brass may work better if you can get any. It starts at about .355 so you wouldn't have to reduce it so far.

[NSP64]

BT Sniper, I have some range find 30 carbine berdan primed cases that I will send to you if you want to try them for .338 rifle.

[BT Sniper]

30 carbine does look like it would work best. Brass seams a alittle hard to come by.

NSP64 That is very kind of you. I'll take as many 30 carbine as you would like to part with, and from anyone else for that matter. I'll PM you my address.

MIBULLETS How is the 223 jacket bullet working out? What riffle, fps, accuracy, etc.? How difficult was the reducing 20 thou? Would it be able to reduce again? I don't have any dies yet to make .338 bullets but want outcome in the 300 grain vld style. My thoughts are open up the 223 case mouth, then reduce to size. The case could be held in shell holder which would only reducing as far as the web of the case making it look like a belted mag. Core seating and point forming could be done without a top punch I would think. Then try and push the end of the now formed bullet threw a final reducing die to size. Or cut of the remaining bottom of case that is not sized, or even turn it down in lathe. Just my thoughts would certainly like opinions from others.

Would the 32 S&W long dies work to reduce the case and maybe even seat the core with some mods if necessary? Looks like .335 dia would be just the right size for the core seating then ofcourse swaged up to .338?

Thanks

[Ballard]

Ok, I have what is probably a silly question, but I'm going to ask anyway. Do you deprime the empty .40 first, or leave the spent primer in?

[BT Sniper]

Leave it in. One less step in the process. All I do is tumble the brass before annealing it. I don't bother resizing it. I put the cast bullet in the case tip first (upside down) without any problems. Have tried to fill case with moltent lead but like others the total weight varied too much. Finished bullet will look brown from annealing, But an hour in corn cob with media polish looks like new. An interesting side note, the finished bullet from the ch dies seem to have a long nose for 44 mag ops. with the extraction grove still on the bullet I was able to mount the bullet in a case trimer and even out the meatplat of the bullet, reducing it's length by 10 thousandth. This also helped me uniform the weight of the bullets from +or- 2 grains to +or- 1 grain. Before that I had actually trickeled powdered lead in the hollow point to make it +or- .2 grain and reswage it but this was a little to much work for pistol bullets.

Any one ever try making glazer safty slugs? Looks like I could fill this case with lead shot then top it off with an 8mm airsoft plastic pellet for EXPLOSIVE results.

More later,



Brian

[BT Sniper]

attempting pics
picshttp://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10789&stc=1&d=1232588117

Brass jacket cut from top of 30-06 case used to make 44 amp brass next to hornady xtp. Cross cuts of 40 S&W jacket 250 grain with 240 xtp and 240 brass jacket. The s&w jacket is not cut perfect center as the primer pocket is not visable.
Notice brittle look to bullet jackets, this comes from annealing brass in coffee can in fire place (to Hot), and complete process from cut to loaded.

Good shooting,



Brian

[Bullshop]

Kewl, how bout show us the tools.

[luober]

to BT SNIPER:

what is your proceedure for annealing the 40 cal cases? I have tried annealing the cases in a heat treat oven @ 650 degrees for 30 minutes, but when I seat the core I never get the extractor groove to collapse like the examples that you show. My cases come out of the oven kind of mottled and grainy looking but tumbling removes that.

[Pete D.]

BT Sniper: 30-06 cases. Now those I have a lot of. If you will, tell me (us) more about the process pictured in the thumbnail. Thanks.
Pete
PS: You have me thinking now. I'm wondering about using the bottom part of a 30-06 case (.47 dia) as a jacket for 45-70 bullets. I have a Corbin PF die in .458. I may just give it a go this weekend.

[Bullshop]

Wouldnt it be cheaper and easier to start with 45 acp brass for them 458 bullets? 45acp and 06 is the same head. You would be limited in weight but you should be able to get about a 350gn lead tip bullet.

[BT Sniper]

I wouldn't worry about how much you are able to compress the extractor grove, just need to swage it out to size .429. It is the amount of force applied during the core seating as well as good annealing that compresses it. Make of brass also makes a difference, R-P is softer. I'm not sure it will make any difference as long as you get it to fill out to proper size. After breaking my press I'm not as concerned about compessing it that much.

The best process for me to anneal the case is to mount a hand held drill in a vise. Chuck a cut off bolt that will fit inside the case in the drill. Ziptie the trigger of the drill at a slow rpm so case rotates over butane tourch placed under head of case. I let it air cool, have'nt tried quenching it in water. Might work better since I'm still healing from picking up wrong case. Takes about 30-45 sec per case till glows red. Process takes alittle longer but while one is heating I'm swaging another. Got to optimize time.

Bullshop: I've heard good things about your bullet mould lube. I'll have to pick some up some time. What tools would you like to see?

Pete D: Are your talking about using the body and shoulder of the case to make jackets from or are you wanting to use the head of the case as your jacket too? I make my own brass for a 44 automag. It involves cutting off a 30-06 case at 1.3 inches, then inside reaming to accept a .429 bullet. I use the cut off tops from the brass to make jackets with. Using this for a jacket is much easier than swaging up or reducing case heads for bullets. Can make vertually any dia jacket easily too. Yes .458 will be just as easy. Not sure if we can do it without a core seating die though? I'm not fimillar with the point forming die you have. If you do cut up the 30-06 and the left over length is 1.3 or more let me know, I could use them.

For the details in the pics involving the brass jackets, I may just start a new thread for that. Not sure I want to reveal all my secerts though:) I'll certainly help out any way I can though.

More latter



Brian

P.S. A pic of one of my favorite tools

[MIBULLETS]

BT Sniper,

Now that's using your head!:D

If you would, could you tell us how you process the top portion of the 30-06 case? I am most interested how you turned the 30-06 case shoulder into the flat base for the bullet. Did you just swage it as is or did you square the jacket base first before core seating?



Thanks,
Dan

[BT Sniper]

Dan,

Sure I'll give everyone some details. Hope you saved all the .223 cut offs since the same process could be used with them to use as bullet jackets. How does the .358 .223 bullet work for you? Here is a thought, after you reduce the size and seat the core the extraction grove is still there, correct? Could you use a shell holder to hold the now formed bullet allowing you to extract from the point form die without using a punch. It would seam this would allow for a smaller dia nose. I supose it might bulge the lower part of the case that is in the shell holder and not in the die? I will have to have a .338 die made and was thinking up designs.

Quick answer for you with the cut off 30-06. I trim the neck completly of to the junction of the shoulder, this will bend (swage) to form the base. The remaining shoulder and body was about .70 long, weight 30 gr. Boared out a 40 cal Lee AL mould to 210 grain. Put the core in the brass to seat and "roll" the base of the bullet all in one motion. This also reduced the brass to proper size. Point forming took care of the rest of the flatening. This leaves about a 30 cal size circle of exposed lead on the center of the base but it is flat with a perfect slight rounded edge.

The secret is the "rolling" over of the base. I mounted the inner cylinder of the core seating die in a drill press. This is normaly a flat (square) surface on the end of the cylinder correct? With the drill press on, and the cylinder spinning, I held a dremil tool (also on full speed) with a cut off wheel 90 degrees to the base of the cylinder. This removeing the meterial from the center of the cylinder to form a perfectly round concaved shape so when the already angled shoulder hits, it will continue to roll over without folding. It worked like magic.:D I used once fired brass and had no troubles forming the square edge. I did have a couple split from using on oviously work hardened case. Annealing before hand could only improve the results, though I did not find it necessary.

I think for better resullets I would first size down the case neck as small as possible, say 25-06. This would leave less exposed lead on the base of bullet.

These bullets gave me some of the best groups I have shot in my 44 mag. 8 out of 9 shots went .75 at 10 yards. XTPs about 1.0 was norm.

It seems the short anwser has become the book version. My secrets are exposed. Hope some of you may have the same luck as I have. As always I'll help as much as I can. I will be looking for some advise for make vld riffle bullets now.

Good Shooting
More later,



Brian

[Pete D.]

BTSniper: I was having my doubts. The 30.06 case is .470 across the web. I want to end up with a bullet that is .457. I was wondering whether the case would swage down or that I was pipedreaming.


Wouldnt it be cheaper and easier to start with 45 acp brass for them 458 bullets

Yes. it sure would. Same issue, though, wondering if the case head will swage down.
Pete

[MIBULLETS]

Brian,

You read my mind about my 223 cut offs. I will try this out and see what I can do. That way I could get two different 358 jackets from each 223 case.

With the bullets I made from the base portion of the 223 case I would not be able to use the extractor groove. The case rim actuall folds into it a little when I reduce them to fit my core seat die for 358 bullets. Your idea might work with the M1 Carbine case though. You will have to reduce some to just less than .338 and see what they look like, or if the rim will still fit in the shell holder.

Dan

[Bullshop]

There was an old handloader or rifle article about Harold Johnson developing the 450 Alaskan. There werent any good bullets available so they made some heavy jacketed bullets using 30/06 case heads. Seems like they turned them to diameter rather than swaging them. I might could find a the article if I dig deep enough long enough.
BIC/BS

[Pete D.]

Seems like they turned them to diameter rather than swaging them.
Hmmm. I could do that. Probably will this weekend. But......you REALLY gotta want to make a bullet to go to that amount of trouble just for one.
It is, however, nice to know what is possible and how to go about it.
Pete

[tonyb]

Those bullets look like they can punch a nasty hole in something.

[BT Sniper]

Pete D.

I've been thinking. To reduce a 30-06 head to .457 is only 13 thou I would bet if it is good and annealed first it would work. Experiment and see what happens. I only say this now because I made a mistake and put a 40S&W case with core in my point forming die upside down. I had annealed it twice and wound up rebating (reducing) the rim by 40 thou.

Good shooting,



Brian

[sav300]

Well that topic sure got me a lot of information and ideas.Thanks folks.
NOW the BIG question,Has anybody fired the 40S&W thru a 44mag/444marlin?If does it work and how good does it work?
Lionel.

[acemedic13]

I am starting to shoot a lot of 44 mag these days. I want to start hog hunting with my 8 3/8 629 smith. These look like some nice hunting rounds. I also want to be able to make projectiles from available material.... Just because...... I have not made any investment into swaging tools as of yet. Could you give me a bare bones "shopping list" to get started on this project?? I already have a vise, drill, drill press, torch, propane forge, lee bottom pour, tons of drill bits. Most of the shop tools. I just need to sort out what swaging equipment, such as a press,dies, so on and so on. So I know what to get from corbin,c-h, or whomever. I would really appreciate it. Thanks. Joel

[BT Sniper]

These 40S&W jacket bullets shoot and perform as good or better than factory bullets in alll ways. Have shot them threw 44 Mag at 1350 FPS. Any press would work to start with, seen alot of people using rock chucker, I bought a redding big boss just because it is steel. Been happy with the CH dies a good starting investment at only $125.

Joel, your shopping list should be short. Dies, lead, and some sort of core mold. Lee 175grain mold worked good for me. Made 247 grain bullet when done.

More later


Brian

[acemedic13]

Hey Brian. I was thinking about finding a drill bit that would be close to the size of a suitable core. then drilling a lot of holes through a 2x4 and then pouring the lead into that. I could probably get a couple dozen holes drilled in a 3 foot 2x4 (for a better production rate), and just punch them out when they set up. I know I would have to set the board on my 250 pound anvil (it's easier to move the lee pot than the anvil) so the lead would not run out. I did something similiar when experimenting making slugs. Worked pretty good. I used masonite also. Worked even better. The sides of the slug came out smoother than with wood. Probably wont matter when it gets swaged in a jacket though. I guess my question is, Do I need a core mold or do you think this will work? I Would like to try it unless there is some reason that I should not. I have a lot of 30-06 brass around here. I really liked those bullets you made out of those. I also have several hundered POUNDS of 40 smith brass.
So all I really need to get started is a set of 44 swaging dies? I have the rest. I will probably get a better press and use it just for swaging. If I am wrong anywhere in my ass-umptions here please let me know. Thanks Brian. Joel

[BT Sniper]

Joel

Your going to need alot of lead:-D. 40 S&W case is like 66 grains with about 100 per pound. Do you have access to pure lead for the cores?

I will admit again that I'm no expert. Any knowledge I have as been from previous failures or from info gathered on this sight. With that being said, my biggest challenge and my goal is to make every one of these bullets with consistant, repeatable results. This becomes difficult with the possible slight differences in the brass and my ability to cast even weight bullets for the core. Granted the core seating die has a small hole to squeez out any variation of core weight, but the wheel weights increased the required PSI way too much for this to work for me.

I'm not sure the wood will be able to produce repetable results (weight) for the 100's of pounds of potential bullets you have sitting in your garage and moving 10-20lbs of moltent lead sounds like your job security to me:-D. I have not tried it though and could be all wet, but to me the $20 lee bullet mould was a relaxing and rewarding experance. In only 4 hours total I have coffee cans full of bullets good enough to shoot in a 40 S&W if I wanted to. This from a 2 bullet mould. I'm all about saving $ but also belive in simplisity when possible, and casting lead cores was easy.

I've been working on this project allmost every night and still coming up with new ideas and better bullets. I'll post some more pics of step by steps.

Study the presses out there if you want to upgrade, my cheep ones would have worked had I not used such hard lead and pushed them so hard. RCE looks like it could do anything with same Corbin quality at half the price.

Happy with the CH dies for a good price.

Good luck,



Brian

[BT Sniper]

Forgot somthing,

Half inch AL tubing at Home depo has .38 inside diameter perfect size for core molds if you can get it to work.

[acemedic13]

Thanks for the info. About moving the pot, I meant to put it on a work table I have next to my forge and anvil. I use the table for setting hot horseshoes to cool. It was made specifically to hold hot stuff. Then I would move the mold under the pour spout like any other mold. I cast 12 at a time, then backpunched them out. used a 24 inch board.
I tried it last night after I posted that reply. It worked great. I used pure lead and the weight was very consistent. I dont have a core mold, yet... I wanted to get something going with what was laying around just to be doing something on the project. I had another question though. I made some 30-06 cases into 44 cases using my 44 sizing die. The 30-06 is rimless. Is there anything I need to do to headspace them correctly for a revolver?? They came out really nice and fit perfectly. I just dont know if they will push in the cylinder or out when fired. I am new to the whole process here, not just swaging and casting. I have only been reloading for a year or so. So I am still green in a lot of area's. Thanks for the patience and help. Joel.... P.S. To answer your question,I have a virtually unlimited supply of pure lead.....

[BT Sniper]

Joel

I'm starting to get jellous. Unlimited supplies! If you tell us you have unlimited time on your hands.... well I don't know what I'll do. Glad the cores worked for you. What weight did thay come out at? Were do I get an unlimited supply of pure lead from? :)

More latter,



Brian

[BT Sniper]

So has anyone had any luck with the project?

Joel, afraid I don't know how to help you with your 44 rimless headspace problem. The 44 Auto Mag pistol I shoot was made for the 30-06 case cut down for 44. So basicly a 44 rem mag rimless. If you do figure it out though maybe you could tell me how to alter a lever action to fire my rimless 44 mag rounds as I have alot and no point waring out a collectors item.

Good shooting,

Brian

[j4570]

Joel,

BT Sniper has a 44 Automag that uses a specialized cartridge. It's a 30-06 (0r 308) rifle case cutoff, and inside neck reamed to accept a 44 mag bullet (as the case is too thick). You need a special case forming and reaming die set for the 44 Automag.

THE OUTSIDE CASE DIMENSIONS ARE DIFFERENT. You cannot fire a 44 Automag in a 44 Magnum Revolver, nor vice versa. The Cartridges are different, they do not interchange!!!!

[BT Sniper]

Exactly what j4570 said.

I would still like a riffle to shoot my 44 AMP cartridge through. Any Ideas? I was thinking a short action reciever with .429 barrel chamber reamed to 44AMP.

Shot more of the coustom thin brass jacket bullets yesterday. Very goud groups. Shot one through 4 milk jugs of water and still kept going. Will post some pics latter.

Good shooting,

Brian

[BT Sniper]

Any one shot these 40 S&W bullets from the 444 marlin or any thing else than 44 mag pistol?
Joel what was that cartridge you were talking about shooting these through?
I'll get out soon to shoot these bullets as I think I may have figured out a final design.
I'll post some more pics as soon as I download from camara.

Good shooting

[captainkirk]

This may be totally out of line, but how about 10mm brass for some real "heavies"?

captainkirk

[BT Sniper]

Not out of line at all. Have made 280 froam 40 S&W would imagine 10mm might go 350. Try to find 10mm brass is the trick.

[sav300]

My 40s&w projectiles came outa the barrel ok,no sights on the rifle,Fired three,but I hit the paper twice at 25 yards.Nice neat holes.Projectiles weight 314gns Powder charge 46gns ADI 2209.Man,what a healthy push!Now to anneal before any more are made.
Lionel

[BT Sniper]

Lionel,

Nicely done. I take it was from your 444 Marlin. Must be about a 245 grain core. What did you use for a mold. Did that cap off the 40S&W case after you seated the core. I'll have to look it up but what do guess for a velocity. I'll bet it would thump some of those roos you have running (I mean bouncing) around down there. I take it you annealed those first 3 bullets too, right?

Let us know how the continued project goes for you.

Who will be the first to try out these bullets on game? Has it been done allready? I think Joel may be thinning some of the hogs out in Ga. soon. Ground squirrles will be out soon here in Oregon. I doubt I would be able to recover a bullet though.:mrgreen:

Later,

Brian

[acemedic13]

Hey brian I am going to send you a pm tonight. I will have that stuff in the mail by the end of the week . Take care bro. Joel

[sav300]

444m on a smle action.No annealing yet,just placed a cast 358 projectile (ww) out of a hock nose pour mold and formed in the die.Nose formed with a bit of lead showing.Need to make a core seater.Will try to borrow a camera.Have learned a lot since I started this post.
Thanks folks.Straight military wood work with brass butt plate aint my idea of fun!
Lionel

[sargenv]

I had another question though. I made some 30-06 cases into 44 cases using my 44 sizing die. The 30-06 is rimless. Is there anything I need to do to headspace them correctly for a revolver??

Um, best way I can relate to this is have one of the makers of moon clips make you up some custom. TK Custon or Hearthco can likely make clips for you (if they don't already have them). You may need to have your cylinder cut for moon clips (Cylinder and slide will do that) if there isn't enough relief for them.

[BT Sniper]

Didn't think about moon clips. I think that could work.

Thanks, I'll pass on the info,

brian

[acemedic13]

Um, best way I can relate to this is have one of the makers of moon clips make you up some custom. TK Custon or Hearthco can likely make clips for you (if they don't already have them). You may need to have your cylinder cut for moon clips (Cylinder and slide will do that) if there isn't enough relief for them.

I thought of that before I wrote that post. A buddy of mine was looking at it and brought it up. Dont really think it is worth it. Toyed with the idea for a few days......We'll see. it would be handy though.