More 35 Caliber Testing

[ChristopherO]

In preparation of Hunting Season I keep working with this old 35 Whelen and cast boolits, trying to settle on a projectile and load to be confident when pulling the trigger. Figger I would run this range session along to you fine folk to gain your feedback. Today's offering was using the NOE 360-182WFNGC PC's over 26 grains of H2400 and a tuff of Dacron. This isn't the first time for this loading, as it showed promise prior but sized .360". Today they are sized to .359" but actually measure .3595" I estimate these are traveling between 1,900 to 2,000 fps, but that is an educated guess based off what the books say.
Whether sized at .360" or .3595" they are extremely tight to close the bolt on. Barrel slugged out at .3585". Today was no different. I tried taking one out of the chamber and it left the boolit stuck right in there:
290090

Though too tight for fast follow up shots this is the first target of the day with those oversized projectiles and a clean barrel at 100 yards:
290091
That warmed the inner recesses of my heart.

Because I know how hard it is to chamber and bolt this sized boolit in to the chamber I had the opportunity to take these .3595" boolits and carefully resize the front driving band only with a .358" die by turning the slug upside down in the Lyman 450 and swapping out the nose pin to a flat pin. Either the PC springs back or that die actually is .3585" in diameter, but this is what they came out as. Yet, they chamber beautifully with no resistance. Would they be accurate with the front portion that is exposed to the leade sized 0.001" less? The results:
290092
Not terrible. They cycle through the action cleanly and lock into place much like a jacketed bullet does. That is a better outcome, but can I tighten this group up is the question. At 100 yards a deer would be dead, but I rather would have a better group to show for my efforts if at all possible.

I can get better group out of my 1895 CB 45/70 with the boolits I cast and Skinner sights, if I take my time and really focus. What do you fine hunters expect when hunting with cast boolits, far better than the second target shown? In my mind this group rules out 150 to 200 yard shots. OK, I know, if I use these .3585 / .3595 sized boolits they have to cluster closer together. (not willing to enlarge my chamber for a cast only rifle project)

For additional experimenting I loaded up a few of the .3595" boolits over IMR3031 (37 grains). Nothing to get excited about
290093

A few water jugs were executed when the paper target shooting was complete. I have no doubt that a Midwest whitetail smacked in the plumbing with one of these boolits will fill the freezer nicely. This has been a thought provoking endeavor that has dragged on for a couple years, testing, trials, testing, with this cast combination giving the most satisfaction to date. It makes a trip to the range a fun experience. Hopefully I'll have the chance to report back with satisfying results.

[versa-06]

Try seating the bullet a little deeper. It really shouldn't matter much with a well attached check & PC'd boolit. Just a thought.

[ChristopherO]

I tried that on my last range trip, but then the rounds wouldn't feed from the magazine. This old converted Mauser makes working with cast a royal project, yet I like it too much to put down.

[versa-06]

May want to consider the RCBS 35-200 mold or the Lee copy of it. Looks like you may have to sacrifice a bit of meplat for good feeding. I have the RCBS mold & have taken several deer with it, works great for me. But I did have to give 1 deer a 2nd dose after a Texas heart shot running away.

[geezer56]

You may be a bit soft on the alloy. I had issues with my whelen shooting patterns. Water dropping the boolits hardened them enough to tighten the patterns into groups. It's still not up to jacketed accuracy, but definitely whacks pigs well enough.

[farmbif]

ive been shooting the RCBS 35-200 lube sized to .360 in my classic 700, never had any problems, ive gotten them up to about 2100 fps using 4198.
one of these days I'm going to cast some 35-250's and try them out, another plan is to work up loads with 2520 powder and try getting velocity up to maybe 2400 or 2500. but the RCBS design just plain works, it doesn't have the super wide nose and that's probably why it chambers without a problem

[lesharris]

as already stated try a different profile bullet. The RCBS or LEE are both good choices.

[atr]

I am using the Lee 200 gr with 20 gr of 2400 / NO FILLER
this is a consistently accurate load.
Last time out a week ago, I got 4 shots at 100yds MOA....pulled the 5th shot so the total of 5 shots was greater than MOA
the round feeds well from my Mauser 98 action, no hang-ups.

good luck with your hunt
atr

[NEKVT]

Easier to match a bullet designed for a rifle to a rifle and in .35 it's hard to beat the RCBS-200 FN or the Lee equivalent. I use the RCBS for .35Rem and 356Win and also shooting it out of my Marlin 1894C.

[pworley1]

The Lyman 358315 and 358318 work well in my Whelens.

[ChristopherO]

Thank you, Gentlemen, for all your responses. I appreciate the feed back.


The Lyman 358315 and 358318 work well in my Whelens.

pworley1, you hit the nail on the head with this particular rifle. In its former life the action served as a military Mauser. Many years before I obtained it, nigh on 20 years ago, it was morphed into the sporter it is now. The magazine carrier was never revamped, and therein lies the rub. 250 grain Jacketed Spitzers slide in effortlessly. Jacketed RN's of the same weight feed well, also. Then I got the bright idea to shoot cast in this rifle and found out very quick that long FN lead slugs will not, I repeat, will not feed into the chamber for getting caught on the edge of it every time. 2 or 3 years ago I purchased the Lyman 358318 RN mold from a fellow CB member. They drop pretty boolits, and they will feed into the chamber. Not stellar, but adequately if I do my part right. That is with the grease grooves lubed only. Using Alox or Ben's Liquid Lube, or Powder Coat is another story. With the slightest coating on the nose they can jamb on that sharp chamber edge without much provocation. These shoot ok. Kinda finicky depending on powder and fps. Some folks love them, some hate the 358318, and some, like myself, am ambivalent toward it.

I have on my loading bench a menagerie of the 358318 boolits that have been redesigned by my tools into various nose lengths, meplat widths, weights and configurations to find out what can and will not load smoothly into this particular chamber from the magazine. If the RCBS 200 would have worked I would gladly have purchased that mold two years ago, but it will not feed. If the Lee 200 would feed as desired, I would have that mold in my kit, as well. With a smaller FN nose that extrudes from the case as far as .40" it will chamber from the magazine. But those that are .50" long noses will not. What this rifle has confirmed is, with a wide flat nose a length of .30" from the case mouth is optimum. This isn't a factory sporting rifle but a converted military action. That is the difference. But I've grown fond of this rifle and the challenge keeps me coming back for more.

Along came an offer at the beginning of this year from an extremely generous CB member of multiple FN boolits from 175 grains up to 190 grains, and a few RN's thrown in to boot. He saw me talking about creating some 350 Legend type loads in the 35 Whelen to see if I would appreciate what it has to offer, and in the mail were various styles as his response. These were great, and I became partial to the NOE 182 WFN U2 bullet he sent that was already Powder Coated. They feed from the chamber perfectly and shot well, fast becoming a favorite. Yet, they were .360" in diameter, as this is the sizing die I had on hand, and were tight to bolt down, but I thought that could be remedied with a tighter sizing die. After many months NOE restocked these molds and I recently ordered the 2 cavity, one PB for plinkers and the other GC for the upper end velocities. I was also recently able to procure .359" and .358" sizing dies to try out, thus my original post. All these were powder coated and then sized. I need to experiment with WLL 2500+ lube and the .359 die to see if they will be as tight to bolt in as the PC makes them. Though, at .3585" they not only feed from the magazine but also locked into the chamber with no undue resistance. Now I need to see if I can get the .3585" boolits, or at least the front driving band at .3585" to print nice patterns that build enough confidence to use these deer hunting.

geezer56's reply: "You may be a bit soft on the alloy. I had issues with my whelen shooting patterns. Water dropping the boolits hardened them enough to tighten the patterns into groups. It's still not up to jacketed accuracy, but definitely whacks pigs well enough." has much merit. I've not water dropped too many castings, but certainly can add this component into the mix. Thank you, sir, for sharing that bit of wisdom. I'm all for it. From what I've read water dropping will stiffen the exterior but still allow expansion to occur once hide and meat are met. It that is correct it may allow me to achieve what I am looking for. Should success win out I'll share the hero pictures. Such fun, this hobby: The road goes on forever and the party never ends.

[versa-06]

--- Just a little more of my 2 cents. I had a BLR 358 that was tight in the neck & couldn't shoot .360 dia. boolits, too tight to allow expansion & bullet release. So I sent it to JES reboring. & He found the neck area of the chamber was slightly too small & ran a finish reamer through it & brought it up to specs. Now .360 is no problem & no case neck reaming.

[waksupi]

[QUOTE=ChristopherO;5277671]Thank you, Gentlemen, for all your responses. I appreciate the feed back.



pworley1, you hit the nail on the head with this particular rifle. In its former life the action served as a military Mauser. Many years before I obtained it, nigh on 20 years ago, it was morphed into the sporter it is now. The magazine carrier was never revamped, and therein lies the rub. 250 grain Jacketed Spitzers slide in effortlessly. Jacketed RN's of the same weight feed well, also. Then I got the bright idea to shoot cast in this rifle and found out very quick that long FN lead slugs will not, I repeat, will not feed into the chamber for getting caught on the edge of it every time. 2 or 3 years ago I purchased the Lyman 358318 RN mold from a fellow CB member. They drop pretty boolits, and they will feed into the chamber. Not stellar, but adequately if I do my part right. That is with the grease grooves lubed only. Using Alox or Ben's Liquid Lube, or Powder Coat is another story. With the slightest coating on the nose they can jamb on that sharp chamber edge without much provocation. These shoot ok. Kinda finicky depending on powder and fps. Some folks love them, some hate the 358318, and some, like myself, am ambivalent toward it.

I have on my loading bench a menagerie of the 358318 boolits that have been redesigned by my tools into various nose lengths, meplat widths, weights and configurations to find out what can and will not load smoothly into this particular chamber from the magazine. If the RCBS 200 would have worked I would gladly have purchased that mold two years ago, but it will not feed. If the Lee 200 would feed as desired, I would have that mold in my kit, as well. With a smaller FN nose that extrudes from the case as far as .40" it will chamber from the magazine. But those that are .50" long noses will not. What this rifle has confirmed is, with a wide flat nose a length of .30" from the case mouth is optimum. This isn't a factory sporting rifle but a converted military action. That is the difference. But I've grown fond of this rifle and the challenge keeps me coming back for more. [quote]


Chambering a Mauser into a .308 based cartridge can be a real can of worms. The easiest thing to start with is changing followers, and hopefully find one that will feed correctly. The Spanish Mauser followers are good candidates, that had been chambered in .308.
When I built my .358 Win. rifles, I relieved the chamber mouth slightly to help with feeding. Just don't over do it, you don't want to go so far you are into thin brass area.
You probably know this already, but you can't gently chamber a cartridge in a controlled feed like the Mauser. They have to be slammed home to feed correctly. That's how they were designed to work, and one reason I like a cock on closing bolt. It forces this type of chambering.

[444ttd]

i use a 35/30-30 with 200gr rcbs fn gc and it functions great.

[rockrat]

Try some of the .360" slugs with the front band sized down and see what happens. Also, adjust your 450 to try and only size about half the front band and see how the bolt closes and if the boolit stays stuck in the leade, and if that works, try the .360" boolits again.

[ChristopherO]

" He found the neck area of the chamber was slightly too small & ran a finish reamer through it & brought it up to specs. Now .360 is no problem & no case neck reaming." Good point. If it is only a slight out of round or similar in the chamber neck area then cleaning it up wouldn't harm the rifle in shooting jacketed or cast projectiles. The rub seems to be only in a certain area, not all the way around. Thanks for the insight.

Chambering a Mauser into a .308 based cartridge can be a real can of worms. Ain't it the truth. I suppose searching in Numrich or Brownells might yield some results. Something to look into.

Try some of the .360" slugs with the front band sized down and see what happens. Good idea. I'll need to cast more as I got productive the other evening an sized all the GC boolits to .3595" already. Will keep your suggestion in mind next time I heat up the pot.

[Tripplebeards]

I didn’t rad all the way through your post but I didn’t see what type of a crimp your using. When changed over to the lee collet style factory crimp die my 4 MOA plus groups shank down under 2moa with a few groups SUB MOA in my 35 Rem and 44 mag. I can’t get my 35 whelen pump to to shoot MOA with jacketed ammo so I’m not even going to attempt to try cast in it. My whelen slugs at .358 if I remember and both my 35 rems at .357. I size my boolits .at .3595” in my 35 Rems with great accuracy.

[ChristopherO]

Yes, I am using the Lee FCD, too, but very lightly to take the M Die bell out mainly.

[Tripplebeards]

I use it pretty aggressively. Maybe try a heavy crimp next time out and see if it affects your groups.

[ChristopherO]

I use it pretty aggressively. Maybe try a heavy crimp next time out and see if it affects your groups.

Does that tear off the powder coat? Not used it enough to know the parameters on crimping with it baked on.

[Tripplebeards]

No it doesn’t for me. No leading and great accuracy with a heavy Collet crimp on my group buy 200 grain HP. My 100 yard group is to the left in my avatar with the 336.

[Ford SD]

Off topic question for the 35 Whelen Fans

I have been shooting some Jacketed 357 (158-160g) FMJ Pistol Bullets in a 35 Whelen M1 Garand / 16 twist barrel
Started with a do not reduce load found in Speer book using Imr 4895
i shot some today 65 deg f weather / cases necks now clearing up (soot & black marks)
now at Speer data plus 2g
Primers CCi 200 just starting to flatten ( vs rounded primer )
Group size... was shooting fast from the bench, testing action, not shooting for accuracy, paper plate size at 100yds
I have not put any through a chronograph but should be over 2000- 2100 fps maybe faster

Q1 What is the max velocity anybody has pushed a pistol bullet ?

Q2 What are you group size ?for anyone shooting 35 ca pistol bullets in a rifle ?? velocity?

[Duke3026]

Great group! Triple beards! I’ve been waiting for a bit, for that mold to be offered as a group buy again. Have two 35Rem that I’d like to run cast with.

[ChristopherO]

Off topic question for the 35 Whelen Fans

I have been shooting some Jacketed 357 (158-160g) FMJ Pistol Bullets in a 35 Whelen M1 Garand / 16 twist barrel
Started with a do not reduce load found in Speer book using Imr 4895
i shot some today 65 deg f weather / cases necks now clearing up (soot & black marks)
now at Speer data plus 2g
Primers CCi 200 just starting to flatten ( vs rounded primer )
Group size... was shooting fast from the bench, testing action, not shooting for accuracy, paper plate size at 100yds
I have not put any through a chronograph but should be over 2000- 2100 fps maybe faster

Q1 What is the max velocity anybody has pushed a pistol bullet ?

Q2 What are you group size ?for anyone shooting 35 ca pistol bullets in a rifle ?? velocity?

Ford, I've not chronographed these loads, but may some day. I found a few loaded with 29 grains of 2400 in my stash recently. Had forgotten about them and sycked them on water jugs. Instant gratification.
290541
290542

Then I loaded a few more up with 26 grains of H2400 for paper. They are much faster, in my humble opinion than what the Lyman Manual states:
290543
I could be wrong but everything about shooting this bullet screams zippy. This is the results on target:
290544
The top hole was before adjusting the scope. I believe with a bit of finessing this could group much better than this example shows.

I would be tempted to shoot a deer with this, but it would only be a full broadside behind the leg type of shot. Doubt I ever will. Working too much to perfect good cast boolit load in the 175-200 grain range to accomplish what I want to do with confidence it will penetrate as necessary. Still, these are fun little 35 caliber bullets to shoot into reactive targets on occasion.

[popper]

I had the same problem with similar bullet in 30/30. I reamed/polished out a fender washer to the proper dia. so the ogive would snuggle into the lands. Accuracy improved (over seating deeper) and jam problem fixed. Lee sizer pusher in the ram, washer over ogive and 'moved' the ogive about 50 thou. Tap bullet out of washer with a hammer.

[ChristopherO]

Popper, not sure I follow but am impressed with your ingenuity to fix the problem. Any suggestions where I can look this up?

[Ford SD]

I had seen that load in another reloading book

the load I was working on From Speer Data
IMR 4895 158g Jacketed Pistol Bullet @ 45.0g published velocity 1988fps (Note Do not reduce load)
the Reason I was using the imr 4898 is that I thought it might work the action as a Semi :):):):)

I was trying 2 loads with a brand new spring it just would not work, function
I tried 6 of the pistol bullets and it did not function, then I tried the other load I was working on and those did not function
a few would just come back enough to just reset the hammer.
So I had taken a couple of used (shorter springs) and I tried the shortest one I had App 19 1/2 inches long
[QUOTE]M1 Garand recoil Spring
Proper length is 19 3/4 to 20 1/4" when new.
1005-614-7568 SPRING, HELICAL, COMPRESSION: . S, 0.0562 max stk dia, 0.384 max free od, 20-1/4 free o/a lg, 200 total coils

with the shorter spring and a 6 more round loaded it went bang, bang, click, pull on the oprod, bang bang, bang, Ping
loaded my last 6,.. bang, click, pull on the oprod,bang bang, bang, bang, Ping
and I was out of test rounds, .. and the case mouths are just a bit dirty with gas leaking back around the case
first time trying the load (Made 18 total) ...... So thought I would increase charge a bit

trip to the range on Tue With the Garand, this time I made 46 test rounds.....On a colder day testing

10 @ 45.5 still random short stroking
10 @ 46.0 still random short stroking but less so
10 @ 46.5 100% function
10 @ 47.0 100% function
6 @ 47.5 100% function
Warning these loads are above published Data use at your own risk
but cci 200 primers are not showing any but the first signs of pressure.
IF I get to the point where i think i need to slow down the bolt / oprod i can put in a newer/ correct length spring.

I have no proof but i would say there is less pressure at the gas port than in a 30-06 or a 308 garand = slower oprod

these were shot mostly to test function ... Fast ...pulled the trigger as soon as front sight was on target (from the bench)
Very little muzzle rize, so mostly just needed to move front sight around a bit and it was on target and Bang it went
shot at 2 dinner plate targets all 46 round hit the target
and it was fun :):):):) and No more rounds loaded :(:(

I have thought about
Red dot / 2400 / unique etc but I think all of these powders would make it a straight pull
not ruling it out at this time, But I have few lb of powder, and a few primers, and its Nice to have some fun, once in awhile
this rifle is Brand new rebuilt total of 141 rounds down the barrel

Chamber is a bit dirty so need soak it in some ed's red cleaner, before next outing

Some of those plinker loads might be nice to have in a pocket when hunting

[Ford SD]

my M1 Garand 35 Whelen With a red dot ... so I can see 290595

Best target has been with the Noe 35 XCB Bullet @ 230g its now called 360-230-FN-AU1
But still working on that load to get action to work

[versa-06]

Ford SD; That is "1" unique rifle.

[ChristopherO]

Fun work up, Ford. Continue to keep us posted on your developments. CB needs a shooter's thread for posts such as these.
I'm interested in that NOE 230 gr xcb booklet, too.

[white eagle]

Had a interesting shoot yesterday
I loaded my M-70 S.G. with a 260 gr. Mountain molds boolit
with 30 gr of RL-7 and I stuffed the air space with dacron
shot decent at 50 yds bit low but a good group

[jwhite]

I have had the opportunity to shoot a couple deer with 158gr hornady XTP’s in a 35 whelen. If I remember the load was 20grs of Imr 4227. With a behind the leg boiler room shot they worked quite well. Both dropped in their tracks.

[ChristopherO]

I have had the opportunity to shoot a couple deer with 158gr hornady XTP’s in a 35 whelen. If I remember the load was 20grs of Imr 4227. With a behind the leg boiler room shot they worked quite well. Both dropped in their tracks.

Thanks for that real life experience, jwhite. I have no doubt, looking at the JHP mushroom pictures I attached above that they will kill deer quite well, but only on perfect broadside shots, such as you described. Any quartering to or away angles might be dicy. I've been so busy with business lately that the Whelen has been sitting idle, but I do hope to resume testing with my cast boots before too much of a delay. I would like to take it to Indiana to hunt deer with, as it is legal on that side of the boarder, but it can only be used on private land and I don't have a connection to do so at this time. I need to make a phone call to inquire.....
Thanks again for adding to this discussion.

[ChristopherO]

Been too long and I needed to sight in the straight wall deer rifle this afternoon. After that task was completed the 35 Whelen came out with the NOE 182 WFN GC PC boolits over 25 and 26 grains of H2400 and a tuff of Dacron with CCI 200 LRP.
291136
I was about out the door when I remembered Triplebeard's recommendation to use the Lee FCD, so I followed through and set the crimp with this on these cast boolits for the first time.
291131

If you recall my earlier post, the .360" and the .3595" diameter boolits were tight to chamber and bolt, scraping off the PC on the driving band outside the case mouth. These were sized differently and loaded with the body and base at .3595" and the front driving band at .3585". They chambered and locked in place perfectly.

Would they shoot worth the effort? I needed to find out.
The first shot with a clean bore was quite high with 25 grains of H2400, but the others in that loading settled down toward POA. These are marked with the circle around the boolit holes:
291137
Using another target to adjust the scope closer to POA I then used the 26 grain load of H2400 on the same target as the 25 grain load was originally shot on. The flyer of shot #4 is mine, knew it as I pulled the trigger. I believe all my research and perseverance is finally paying off.

After shooting through a line of water jugs at 100 yards to round out the session I found this pretty mushroom in the 3rd jug laying in the bottom of the container:
291134
291135

I need to chrony these again to be sure of their speed but I am betting they are pretty much a duplicate of the 350 Legend round that's all the rage in the midwest where bottle neck cartridges aren't permitted but Straight Walls are. Except these are lead, range scrap with powder coat and a large flat nose. I'd hunt with these all season long, if'n I could in Ohio. If anyone in SE Indiana wants the herd thinned just let me know and I'll come running. LOL

[Ford SD]

Any day Having fun is better than a rain Day :(

I had a rain Day .... Tried to make it a fun day by making (resizing 30-06 to 35 W)

I took 55 pcs of dirty once fired Hornady 30-06 Brass and Made 51 pcs of nice clean 35 Whelen Brass
Annealed all the brass and cleaned it
my defects/ rejects
1 split all the way to the shoulder
1 must have been just a bit off center and hit the edge of the neck expander and crushed it
1 has less than 1/8" split at the neck ....... would split at first firing .... going to use it for set up
1 Has .... a first for me a visible bulge in the neck of brass, a donut

so have about a 10% reject rate converting brass
citric acid clean in the ultrasonic cleaner App 8-10 min Does a very good job of cleaning the primer pockets
water wash/ drain / dry in the tumbler with crushed walnut and Mothers car polish, ready for primers

[ChristopherO]

Ford, that is about what return on effort I have gotten creating 35 Whelen Brass out of 30/06. Years ago I primed a case, added so much pistol powder, Cream of Wheat with TP on top to hold it all in and shot it out the upstairs window. Vah La, 35 Whelen cases.
Lately, to save primers and powder, I lube 30/06 brass, dip the case mouth in powder graphite to ensure the interior of the neck is coated and run them through the sizing die. Most come out just fine. Some of the old WWC54 brass will come out with a crooked case mouth, meaning it is longer on one side of the mouth than the other by a tad, but they are too short to use the Lee 35 Whelen trim tool on so I just go with them. Most of those are set aside for low velocity shooting with the primer hole drilled out to 1/8" anyway. The commercial brass is saved for higher end loads.

Citric Acid is my method of cleaning, as well. May purchase an ultrasonic cleaner one of these days.
Glad you made the most of your rainy day.

[atr]

I make all my 35 Whelen brass from old GI 30-06. I wire brush the inside neck to clean it up and then slightly lubricate the case and neck. Vary seldom do I have a case that splits at the neck.