Some slug questions for experts

[Vettepilot]

I have a few questions regarding slugs.

1. With the Russian slugs and Azot wads, do you seat the wad so that last little step on the wad goes up into the slug?? I have seen pictures, and heard tales of it Both ways. Which is correct?? When I try to seat mine full depth, so that the last little step is forced up into the slug, the slug skirts crack. (Soft lead.) That step measures about .009" larger than the i.d. of the slug.

2. Lee Drive Key slugs. One of Lee's recipes calls for Federal 12S0 wads. I couldn't find any, so I bought 12S4 wads, figuring I could just trim the petals. Are those petals thicker on the 12S4 wads?? Because my soft lead cast Lee 7/8 oz. slugs in the 12S4 wads cannot possibly be pushed through the forcing cone of my H&R Pardner smooth bore. No way!! ???

3. Lastly, the Lee drive key slugs are designed to be shot through a rifled barrel. Many find it tough to get good accuracy through smooth bores. Is it possible?? How?

Oh, and news flash. There's been a re-design of the Azot wad by Svarog. They say not much changed. Got some of the new ones coming...

Thanks guys, for any and all input!!

Vettepilot

[megasupermagnum]

#1, I can't answer fully, as I don't cast those slugs. Are you sure those are soft lead? I've not seen pure or lead/tin alloy act that way. Normally a crack like that indicates an alloy high in antimony, and low in tin.

#2 The 12S4's petals aren't thicker, per se, but like most wads, they are tapered to thicker at the bottom. By using a 12S4, you are in the thickest part of the petal, where a 12S0, you would be near the top, where it would be thinner. Your biggest problem will be getting a decent crimp. The 12S4 is way shorter than the 12S0, so you have to take up that room somehow. It isn't likely to work well. Measure the OD of the wad with the slug in it at the widest part of the slug. Unless it's really big like .750", I'd shoot them. I get my best results with the tightest fit that can be obtained without ruining the wad. I take no responsibility for the safety of the following. One trick I've used in 10 gauge and other cases I could not obtain a taller wad, is to add spacers under the wad. By this I mean use an X12X gas seal, followed by likely three 12ga 1/8" felt wads, or whatever you need to take up the space, then load your 12S4 on top of that. You will want to fill your slugs hollow base with hot glue or similar. A lot of people use a 20 or 18 gauge nitro card in the bottom of the wad too as extra support.

#3, Yes, you can get good accuracy with the lee slugs in a smooth bore. For the most part the 7/8 oz slug is far and away more accurate. The 1 oz is balanced weird, but there is one member who somehow figured out a load to make it shoot good. I've actually heard more good things about the Lee 7/8 oz in a smooth bore, than a rifled barrel, not that they wont work from a rifled barrel too.

[Hogtamer]

1 or 2 - 20 ga Hard cards in bottom of wad helps much with fit and to keep wad from jamming into bottom of slug.
+1 on the 7/8 out of cylinder or Imp cylinder

[longbow]

I've had reasonable results with both 7/8 and 1 oz. Lee slugs to 50 yards from smoothbore if slug/wad/bore fit is good and with nitro card wad under the slugs as Hogtamer says.

If you don't mind a bit of extra work this is a good read:

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?391840-Proofing-the-Lee-1-oz-without-Tail-Feathers

Ranch Dog did a lot of work to get there and got good results. It makes sense to me.

I have some Lee slugs loaded over hard card wad columns waiting to be tested now.

Longbow

[243winxb]

Lee key drive slugs are cast with pure lead. They will swaged into the barrel on firing. An I/C choke would be best.

[Vettepilot]

Ok. First, the Russian slugs were cast out of soft lead, and the reason that I smashed that one slug with a hammer, was to prove to myself, and show, that the slug is malleable. It didn't crack, despite being smashed nearly flat. Yet when the wad is forced all the way up into it, it cracks. The slug skirt is not very thick, and when the .009" larger hard plastic step is forced into it, it expands and cracks. I think most people using it don't seat the wad this deep, and it takes a fair amount of force to do so. But if you don't seat it that deep, I imagine firing the shot would do it for you. Svarog said the wad should be seated all the way. But when you do so, the slug cracks.... quandry!

Now the Lee slug. Everything I've read says you should be able to push the slug through the entire barrel with about 10 pounds of force. I removed my barrel, and with a 1/2" hardwood dowel, tried to push the slug and wad through. With the barrel resting on the floor, and most of my 200 pound weight pushing--> no go! That couldn't be good for pressure! Those slugs, with the "key drive" rib inside, don't swage down much. I measured my slug, and after trying to force it through the barrel, it's now .010" or so egg shaped. The key drive rib prevented that area from swaging down, hence the now egg shaped slug.

What was said about my Federal 12S4 wad makes sense regarding the petals being thinner at the top. I'll go measure that difference now. Maybe that's my problem. Not sure there's enough difference in the petals top to bottom to cause this though...

Anyone got a Federal 12S0 they want to drop in the mail to me so I don't have to mail order a whole bag just to check fit??

Thanks,
Vettepilot

[Vettepilot]

Hmmm... very good call megasupermagnum.

The wad petals measure .024" at the top, and .027" at the bottom! So that's making the slug-wad combo .006" bigger than it should be, which is a lot. That's my problem with those. My slug/wad combo measures .740", and my barrel measures exactly .729". As I said, even with a crazy amount of force, these won't push through the barrel with that key drive rib not allowing the slug to swage down like a foster slug would. Yeah, 11,000 psi would force it through, but even if I felt safe about that, which I don't, it would surely mangle the wad and ruin accuracy.

Well, I'm happy and sad. Happy we isolated the problem, and sad I've got a bag of wads I don't need, and I don't have the wads I do need. I'll dig into my stash and see what else I've got. I think I have some PT-1205 wads that might work. I had really wanted to use Federals.

Again, if someone has a Federal 12S0 I could test/verify, that would be great!

Thanks again,
Vettepilot

[Vettepilot]

Ya know, these "Key Drive" slugs are intended to be shot "naked", without a hard 20 gauge nitro card under them. The "key" is supposed to help grip the wad, enabling the slug to turn with the wad when the rifling spins it. Yet many people shoot them with a support card underneath. I too have seen wads that were distorted and partly forced up around the key in the slug, making one think that a nitro card for extra support is needed. However, that's not how they were designed.

Now I'm wondering if improper wad/slug fit, and friction and high pressures aren't what caused those mangled wads. ???

Vettepilot

[Hogtamer]

289990 This was at 65 yds with IC barrel. The key does not grip the wad as it is contained within the slug. What choke is the barrel you were using? 200 lbs of pressure is a pittance compared to 10,000 the other way.

[Vettepilot]

Well, if you read Lee's literature, the key is designed to do just that; "grip the wad". When the pressure pushes the wad tight up against that key, it locks them together.

So just now as a test, I stacked four 20 gauge nitro cards up under the slug in an uncut wad, which put it right where it should be. THEN, I was able to push the combo through the barrel with a very firm, hard push all the way through the barrel, and the rifled choke! It made what I would say is a very perfect, tight fit, but not impossibly tight.

Ha! The bummer is I had made this very cool jig/tool to perfectly cut the wad petals at the right height, which I now don't need!!

Vettepilot

[243winxb]

My 12 ga Lee key drive is smaller in diameter at the base. The cross bar does compress in to the plastic wadd. The pure lead slug will expand to the bore diameter on firing. The expanding base may cut a pettel off on maybe 1 out of 10 fired.
I used Lee data and method of loading.https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/img_2928.508/full

[Vettepilot]

Well, I've got 72 20 gauge over powder, nitro cards here, and that will load up 18 shells that I will load and shoot. That's with 4 cards under each slug, which as I said sets the slug perfectly, and with reasonable force will go through my bore.

Then I found some Federal 12S0 wads like the Lee slug load data calls for in stock at Stockman's online and ordered a bag to try.

Lee Precision seems like a decent company and I've always been happy with them. But I wonder why they don't do something about their ridiculously outdated slug load data??? Most of the components in their data don't even exist any more...

Thanks for the help guys. I never considered about those wad petals being tapered in thickness, and was quite puzzled at my problem with bore fit.

Now, nobody shoots the Russian slugs?? From everything I've seen, read, and heard about, they're very accurate. The only thing I don't like so far, is the price of the wads! But I want to sort out my little problem with them, and get to testing them...

Vettepilot

[Hogtamer]

Those old lee load IMO are way too hot. I would start at 4-5 gr less than printed.

[longbow]

Whether the wad puckers up and grips the drive key rib or the wad jams in and cracks or stays with the slug likely depends on the wad design.

I cannot easily get wads where I am to be able to pick up a bag of each or check and measure before buying. I have to order in.

What I do know is that Winchester 7/8 oz. and 1 1/8 oz. wads and Claybuster clones do not do well unless there is a nitro card wad in the bottom of the shotcup.

Shotcups with beefier bottoms and possibly different design cushion legs may do better.

I have to think that the recipes Lee lists spec wads that perform and grip the drive key rib as they say. Even so slug wad fit in rifled barrel should be tight enough to grip the slug without depending on the wad puckering up around the drive key rib... in my opinion. After all the Lee slugs are the only slugs with a drive key rib and there are several hollow base wad slugs available.

For smoothbore the drive key is irrelevant so adding a nitro card wad or two does no harm in that regard and provides support for the bottom of the shotcup.

My opinion based on my experience anyway.

Longbow

[Vettepilot]

Yep. I agree with all you said. I don't have any experience with the Winchester or Claybuster wads though. I'm going to test the Federal 12S4 with four cards in them, and then I'll test the 12S0 with no cards when they come. I also have some BP PT-1205 wads that are supposed to work with the Lee slugs that I'll give a try as well. I'll let you all know how they do...

I'll be testing in smooth bore, OC (CB), and with a rifled choke.

Thanks!
Vettepilot