Cast bullet in place of jacketed. Dangerous?

[Jaak]

I could not find an answer to this question with any quick Googling so I'm asking here.

Can you substitute a cast bullet in a recipe that calls for a specific jacketed bullet as long as the mass of the bullets are the same?

I understand that driving a cast bullet to jacketed speeds will cause leading very quickly and that it may not work worth a damn because of many different factors involved, but will things explode?

I'm asking because I cast a bunch of 158grain bullets but they all came out in the 160grain range. I can't find a recipe in my books for a cast 160grain bullet with the powder that I want to use, but I can find one for a jacketed 160grain. Would there be any harm in using the jacketed bullet recipe with the understanding that it may not be ideal?

[jim147]

Unless you are using a powder that has the same start and max listing just start at the lightest load for the 158 and work up from there. Those 2 grains of bullet weight won't even be noticed.

[44Blam]

You can use jacketed data for a basis. Just start low and chrono the rounds to make sure that you are getting the velocities that you expect.
Ultimately, the thing to keep in mind the case volume. So if your COL is the same and the bullets are a similar shape, the data is probably pretty close. If your COL of your lead bullet is shorter, you need to start with a lower charge because the reduced case capacity will generate higher pressures.

[Larry Gibson]

Jaak

This question comes up frequently, i.e. "can a cast bullet of equal weight to a jacketed bullet use the jacketed bullet data", or visa versa. I've done a lot of pressure testing of various cartridges, handgun and rifle, attempting to answer that question. I've not come up with a definitive answer and I really don't expect to. There are just too many variables such and jacket hardness, alloy hardness, actual bearing length and seating depth (not to be confused with the OAL of the cartridge), etc. In pistol/handgun cartridges the seating depth appears to be the critical factor, not necessarily the weight of the bullet.

Additionally I've found that with a given cast bullet varying in weight by a few grains there isn't as much difference in pressure with a given load as we might assume. My suggestion is; if you have data for the bullet you are using then use that data regardless of a slight variation of bullet weight. As always start low with the 'start" loads for that data and work up.

[fredj338]

If you want a safe answer, it depends on the load data. At max, everything you change matters. So I would never plug a cast bullet into a max jacketed load without dropping & working it back up. If your jacketed load is midrange, swapping cast for jacketed in the same weight isnt going to affect things much. OAL & bearing surface will matter more.

[tankgunner59]

I had that same question about my Winchester Model 94AE. With good advice here I emailed my question to Hodgdon and a tech answered the next day that the start load in my manual would work with the 8202 powder. So my advice is to contact the powder maker and pose your question, be as specific as you can.

[Mk42gunner]

It also greatly depends on the cartridge. Normal handgun rounds (even from a rifle) you are probably okay, high velocity rifle rounds may be a very different story.

I will say that I don't think I have ever had a mold drop a boolit to the advertised weight, even when I was using the designated alloy.

Robert

[243winxb]

Use lead data from 158 gr. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/albums/load-data-lead-vs-jacketed-bullets.265/ lead vs jacketed.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/357-magnum-lead-vs-jacketed-hodgdon-data-2020.2922/full

[Land Owner]

Harm? No harm.
Probably a lead dust cloud at your muzzle when pushing a lead boolit at jacketed bullet velocity.
Hammering the air with an unshielded lead boolit - at jacketed bullet speed - is a waste of components.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

maybe share some specific details, like what powder and what caliber and the load.

[243winxb]

More from link https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/357-magnum.2913/full

[reddog81]

For all intents and purposes a 160 grain lead bullet is a 158 grain bullet. Bullet weights can vary due to alloy content.

I’d be more concerned about variations in load data due to different bullet shape/profile than 2 grains of lead.

[P Flados]

In recent years I have become convinced that case fill % or load density is the most important variable for getting results that are consistent with published loads where you are going to make a component substitution. As noted by Larry Gibson this is not just OAL. Note that in addition to seating depth, variations in case capacity can also affect fill %.

I also agree with Larry in regard to bullet weight being a "minor" variable in the puzzle. Batch differences in powder probably matter more.

However, even when you ensure you are not exceeding the published load fill %, the other variables are still there and can potentially stack up to cause problems. This is where the "start low and work up" comes into play. However, in a lot of applications (see case 3 below) I feel this does more for a "feel good" thing than actually protect your gun.

Case 1: If your gun can handle pressures that will stretch primer pockets without hurting the gun (good bolt actions, TC Encore in 30-06 or smaller diameter brass, etc), working up loads while watching primers is a no big deal kind of thing.

Case 2: If your gun shoots a 55,000 psi cartridge the same or bigger (case diameter) as your cartridge, working up loads while watching primers is still ok, but requires more care. You may be getting in to "proof load" stresses on your gun before you decide your primer looks bad. I recommend backing off a little from the max load that looks OK for your regular loads in this situation.

Case 3: The gun is of a lower pressure rating than case 2. I do not feel that watching primers has near as much value as many seem to think. Unless you can figure out exactly how much pressure your chosen primers require to flatten (a tid bit probably only known by primer makers), why should you assume it to be any less than 70,000 psi (5k above the highest pressure applications your primers can be used in).

Sticky cases are also bad thing and you can bulge a cylinder about the same time you notice sticky extraction.

If you are into case 3 and you feel your gun is stronger than the average gun made for the caliber, loading up to "book max" is probably reasonable provided your components match pretty good with the load data and your fill % is less than the published load. However, to the extent possible only use recently developed data with pressure values in psi or data otherwise known to be conservative.

If you are into case 3 and you want to be on the safe side, just plan on staying below "book max" and keep your fill % is less than the published load.

[Hanzy4200]

My experience, handgun yes, rifle no. Like mentioned, start on the low side. Cast actually will get higher velocity than the same charge on jacketed. Better gas sealing. To an extent.

[Soundguy]

Unless you are using a powder that has the same start and max listing just start at the lightest load for the 158 and work up from there. Those 2 grains of bullet weight won't even be noticed.

Fully agree.

[45DUDE]

I agree with post 2 & 4. When I get through casting I fill my pot back up and check to see what the boolit weighs and add what is needed for the mix for fine tuning. What ever the boolit weighs I adjust the powder charge. I made a 148gr wc weight 136gr just to see if I could.

[mdi]

I believe the definative answer is Mr Gibson's post. The last sentence of Mr Gibson's post is the key to any extrapolation/experimenting...

[Burnt Fingers]

You're getting yourself all twisted around the axle for no real reason.

2 gr difference in boolit weight isn't going to make a bit of difference...in a nominal 158 gr boolit.

I don't even bother to weigh my boolits. If the mold says it's a 200 gr boolit I use 200 gr data and forget about it.


A little-known fact here. The famous H&G 68 boolit that's supposed to be a 200 gr actually comes in closer to 210 gr.

[GregLaROCHE]

I’ve often started with starting loads for jacketed bullets, but made sure my alloy was fairly hard. From there you can start working up. Always keep on top of sighs that are going well.

[1hole]

Your question is a good one but reloading is more of an art than a science. I mean, we really can't make many iron clad statements about much of anything without personal testing.

BUT:

1. - I've been doing this since 1965 and my experience has told me that cast loads will always be at a lower pressure and higher velocity than a jacketed load with the same powder charge because no lead alloy has yet been made that equals the hardness of a jacket. Well lubed lead bullets tend to slide through the bore easier/faster than jacketed bullets of the same weight and powder charge.

2. The only high pressure cartridges (for common handguns) that I know of are the 9mm and 10mm; they are quite touchy to small changes because of their high pressures and small cases. All other cartridges are far less twitchy at their upper limits. Thus, normal variations in cast bullet weight/shape/hardness such as yours can safely be ignored.

3. Normal small seating depth/OAL variations (say, maybe +/- 50 thou) from book data for moderate and low pressure/small case handgun cartridges (i.e., all but the 9/10mm) are virtually meaningless. I set all of my bullets and boolits so the crimp groove is right and shoot them without even checking a book OAL.

NOTE: That does NOT mean insane variations in seating don't matter. Just don't seat so a hot loaded bullet nose is flush with the case mouth (unless it's a full wadcutter and no one loads them very hot) and you'll be okay. I have to say all this because someone always jumps in to say that some folk will do some crazy things like burying a bullet so deep it compresses the powder charge and then blame others for their own stupid results if things go wrong!

4. Trying to gage excessive chamber pressure by looking for primer flattening is equal to a witch doctor examining the entrails of a chicken; meaning that flat primers rarely tell us anything useful. Flattened primers were somewhat helpful back when most of them were convex but I've not seen any new dome top primers since the mid sixties. Since then primers come to us with flat tops so we can easily blow our guns from together if we are expecting flat primer tops to warn us. But, legends die hard and looking at primers sounds good so it's easy for it to keep it going. ??

(Most truly flattened primers are caused by excessive headspace anyway; if the headspace is right it takes a LOT of over pressure to do much more flattening than the makers!)

The ONLY signs of over pressure I trust in a revolver is sticky cases and/or pierced (blanked) primers; THOSE are sure signs of over pressure!

MY top charge limit for autoloaders is my books. Even tho some book charges are too much it's very uncommon for a book load to produce a KABOOM! the first time it's fired! BUT, not all guns have read all of my loading books so I strive to stay aware of things like perceived recoil and how/where the ejected cases land. Nothing good comes from reloads at the ragged edge of safety so I'll immediately stop and back down a bit if things don't seem right.

So far, in my five plus decades of reloading for a lot of guns in a lot of cartridges, I've never had an accident and only a couple of instances of getting a little too hot. One was a too happy old Lyman book max charge of Unique under a 250 grain SWC fired in my S&W .44 Magnum. The recoil was sharp and I'm not gonna tell you what my chronograph said but Elmer Keith would have been proud of me! The R.P. cases were stuck pretty tight so I backed off ... way off.

My rambling point is, there are too many variables in guns and components for anyone to honestly tell you anything in much detail or with much accuracy. Just stay well within the envelope and you won't need to get uptight about small bullet differences. Until you have at least a few hundred rounds of experience with your new bullets stay well inside book powder charge limits and even then don't trust the books completely. After you learn what to expect with known safe loads you might want to creep your charges up in small incraments, like maybe in .2 gr. steps.

At the end of the day, reloading safely isn't memorizing and following an infallible list of lock-step dos and don'ts. It's mostly incremental experience thoughtfully tempered with patient common sense and a total concentration on each step as it's performed at the bench and fired at the range.

Good luck!

"Let's go Brannon!"

[Winger Ed.]

I'm asking because I cast a bunch of 158grain bullets but they all came out in the 160grain range.

Don't worry about it. That's normal.
The mold is listed at 158 with an exact alloy.

If you cast it with a softer, or harder one, the weight will be a little bit different.
I cast with a .45 405 FP mold. At the old, black powder, trap door speeds,
I use a alloy that is pretty soft, and they come out at 424 or so and I still use the 405 data.
It works fine, and so will yours.

Just use the 158 cast load data, take the normal precautions, and live happily ever after.

[gwpercle]

I could not find an answer to this question with any quick Googling so I'm asking here.

Can you substitute a cast bullet in a recipe that calls for a specific jacketed bullet as long as the mass of the bullets are the same?

I understand that driving a cast bullet to jacketed speeds will cause leading very quickly and that it may not work worth a damn because of many different factors involved, but will things explode?

I'm asking because I cast a bunch of 158grain bullets but they all came out in the 160grain range. I can't find a recipe in my books for a cast 160grain bullet with the powder that I want to use, but I can find one for a jacketed 160grain. Would there be any harm in using the jacketed bullet recipe with the understanding that it may not be ideal?

Don't worry ... this happens all the time ... 158 grain mould drops 160 grain . First ...it's only two grains ...So you would be much better off using the data for the 158 grain cast boolit than a 160 gr, J-word data . The charges for J-words are usually higher than what you need for cast .

I have a 160 gr, mould Lyman #358432 WC ... and I simply use data shown for 158 gr . SWC .
Most moulds will cast a little little lighter or heavier depending on exact alloy , you will not find data on every weight variance ... If the mould says it's supposed to be 158 gr. SWC then use the data shown for 158 gr. SWC in the Lyman manual .
But do not substitute J-Word data for cast boolit loads except when no other data is available and then start at the Starting Load and work from there .

Here's a little hint ... don't get all OCD-Anal about weighing boolits ... it gets you gray hair and lots of lost time ... Cast em and Choot Em ...
...unless youre shooting for Money or Trophies !
Gary

[Larry Gibson]

"BUT:

1. - I've been doing this since 1965 and my experience has told me that cast loads will always be at a lower pressure and higher velocity than a jacketed load with the same powder charge because no lead alloy has yet been made that equals the hardness of a jacket. Well lubed lead bullets tend to slide through the bore easier/faster than jacketed bullets of the same weight and powder charge."

My thoughts and "experience" also.....until I started testing such.

A couple examples that demonstrate this just ain't so;

357 magnum ; 7 gr Unique in Winchester cases , with WSP primers with three different bullets loaded to the same seating depth. All loading powder charges thrown consecutively and loaded consecutively. Pressure tested in a 10" Contender barrel via an Oehler M43. Pressure testing done with in the same hour with time between tests to cool the barrel, clean the barrel and fire two foulers for each load.

With a Speer 158 gr JSP; 32,500 psi
With a 358156 at 162 gr; 32,200 psi
With a TL358-158-SWC at 159 gr; 34,100 psi

30-30 Winchester; 28 gr IMR 3031 in FC cases, WLR primer with 3 different bullets all loaded consecutively at the same time. Pressure test in 21" Contender barrel via the Oehler M43. Again, the tests conducted consecutively on the same day with in one hour giving time between test to cool the barrel, clean the barrel and fire two foulers.

With a Winchester 150 gr RNPP; 34,100 psi
With a RCBS 35-150-FN; 34,600 psi
With a Lee C312-150-WFN; 39,900 psi

That's just a couple examples showing the opposite of what many if not most of us have believed. I can also show other examples and can also show examples where the supposition is correct.

Point is, it isn't always correct to assume cast bullets "will always be at a lower pressure".

[P Flados]

Larry,

Thanks as always for the real factual data. So many people propagate reloading "myths" leading to a lot of misinformation getting treated as fact. Having you come along and show us what is real is just so much better.

The actual numbers seem strange (Lee consistently higher than Jacket or traditional mold vendor). For now I will just mentally chalk it up to "different shapes can give different results". Any chance the Lee 30 cal had significantly less jump before engaging the rifling.

Given your pressure results, I assume all ammo extracted great and all primers look perfectly normal. I also assume that if you pushed the loads say 15% past SAAMI limits, the extraction and primers would still be in the "normal" range of things.

[Larry Gibson]

"Any chance the Lee 30 cal had significantly less jump before engaging the rifling."

Perhaps because, given that was a 30-30 cartridge the bullets were seated to the crimp groove and a roll crimp applied. The crimp was adjusted to not buckle the neck/shoulder with the jacketed bullet. The crimp was not readjusted for the cast bullet but remained consistent for all three bullets. Same with the 357 loads. The assumption being these cartridges are loaded to the crimp groove from the bullet in question the OP inquired concerning the 38 SPL or the 357 Magnum(?).

As to flattening of the primer being an indication of pressure; If headspace [cartridge to chamber] is not an issue then the flattening of the primer is an indication that there is pressure. With a given primer, the flatter the primer the higher the pressure. However, it does not really indicate how much pressure or whether the pressure is excessive. In rifle/cartridge combinations safely capable of 60,000 psi the primers are going to be much flatter than the same primer fired in the same rifle/cartridge/powder at 55 - 57,000 psi. Which gives consideration to the burn rate of the powder and the rise time to peak pressure also influence the "flatness" of primers.

BTW; a pierced primer is also, and more often than not, an indication of a firing pin problem not excessive pressure for the cartridge/firearm used. I've seen many ill fitted/formed firing pins pierce primers in low pressure loads in both rifles and handguns. On the other hand, a blown primer [primer pockets is swollen and fired primer drops out] is definitely a sign of very high, excessive pressure. In revolvers, sticky extraction is usually the first sign of excessive pressure. But keep in mind that sticky cases on extraction can also, and is frequently, caused by too soft brass for the normal top end pressures for the cartridge. Thus sticking with actual pressure tested data is best for most reloaders.

[farmbif]

over the years ive learned not to just assume anything. as previously stated there are many variables. If your just starting to cast your own bullets and load your own ammo do yourself a favor and get the Lyman cast bullet manual and there is a plethora of great info you can download at .
http://www.lasc.us/ArticleIndex.htm.
there is lots of great info here and lots of people who's lives are devoted to the sport but in-between there are also some that try pushing the envelope a bit too far for me to try their loads in any of my guns. I'm conservative and want to keep my eyes, hands and guns intact.
stay safe and always work your loads up starting with lowest published powder charge. affording the cost of the powder, primers and lead to do this is all part of the sport.

[Castinator]

You can use jacketed data for a basis. Just start low and chrono the rounds to make sure that you are getting the velocities that you expect.
Ultimately, the thing to keep in mind the case volume. So if your COL is the same and the bullets are a similar shape, the data is probably pretty close. If your COL of your lead bullet is shorter, you need to start with a lower charge because the reduced case capacity will generate higher pressures.

Bullet length matters. Your COL will be the same no matter what if you don't adjust the seating die. The longer the bullet (at same COL) the less case capacity. So I look for data on jacketed bullets that have identical lengths of the cast bullet (and same rear profile, e.g., not boat tail). This is a consideration *before* I buy a mold; will there be any data for it?

[dogdoc]

A chronograph is your friend since velocity is related to pressure. As long as my velocity is more or less in line with book values(allowing for different barrel lengths) , I do not worry too much. I also look closely at built shape and most importantly how much of the bullet is in the case. (Not necessarily oal since bullet profile can be so different)

[Larry Gibson]

A chronograph is your friend since velocity is related to pressure. ......

Only if you are comparing loads using the same powder, and then, with the same lot of powder. For example (extreme though it may be it makes the point) 35,000 psi with Bullseye will have a lower velocity than with 2400 given the same cartridge and bullet. Upping the velocity using Bullseye to equal the velocity of the 2400 load will give some serious over pressure.

[Savvy Jack]

The only real concern I have seen during my testing is that some designs created more pressure than other designs. I did not do enough testing, like Larry, to find or even think I could find an answer.


Test #/POWDER CHARGE/POWDER/BULLET/Manufacture/Velocity FPS/Est PSI/Est CUP/F
9/25gr/Reloder 7/240 LRNFP/3D LRNFP/1,300/9,613/<11,500/38
68/25gr/Reloder 7/240 SCW/Acme Hi-Tek/1,420/14,542/<17,500/36
67/25gr/Reloder 7/240 DGHP/Speer 4455/1,350/15,248/<18,500/36
39/25.3gr/Reloder 7/240 LRNFP/Lee 3 Crimp/1,446/15,279/<18,500/39

[dogdoc]

Only if you are comparing loads using the same powder, and then, with the same lot of powder. For example (extreme though it may be it makes the point) 35,000 psi with Bullseye will have a lower velocity than with 2400 given the same cartridge and bullet. Upping the velocity using Bullseye to equal the velocity of the 2400 load will give some serious over pressure.

Yes, I am definitely comparing loads with same powder. If I have to substitute a bullet of similar or same weight in a load that no data exist for that-exact bullet(common with our cast bullets), I try to match the seating depth so that the volume in the case is similar. I then use my chronograph to make sure velocity is in the ballpark or the original load(accounting for barrel length). The chronograph is our best tool if we do not have pressure testing equipment like you do.

[P Flados]

The Chrony used as described dogdoc is a good tool in many guns. Unfortunately, it is much less useful with revolvers.

[Larry Gibson]

Yes, I am definitely comparing loads with same powder. If I have to substitute a bullet of similar or same weight in a load that no data exist for that-exact bullet(common with our cast bullets), I try to match the seating depth so that the volume in the case is similar. I then use my chronograph to make sure velocity is in the ballpark or the original load(accounting for barrel length). The chronograph is our best tool if we do not have pressure testing equipment like you do.

That's the way to do it.