148gr DEWC: seating depth and accuracy

[Gartenmeister]

Hi, first (original) post here for me.

I recently got back into reloading after a serious hiatus, and am loading handgun cartridges for the first time ever. Not casting (yet) but at least loading cast.

I got some MBC .358 148gr DEWC awhile (like, years) ago and finally got around to loading some up. Went with the traditional recipe, 2.7gr of Bullseye, seated the bullets flush cause that's what one does. At first I was pleased with myself because they function flawlessly, unfortunately the accuracy left something to be desired. Decided to order some different bullets (but they haven't arrived yet). Fast forward to a few nights ago, I was messing around with the crimp function of the seater die and ended up seating a few at the first groove (instead of flush). I realized that I could stuff about 3 of them into a 1911 magazine, and they drop freely into the chamber, so I loaded up some more and took them for a spin.

The results were surprising. The cartridges with the bullet sticking out shoot better. They also run lower velocity (no surprise) and have lower ES and SD. The photo is of sample targets shot back-to-back. Overall I fired a couple dozen rounds of each and the results were consistent. To be absolutely clear, there is no difference between these loads except for the way that the bullet is seated.

So what gives? And, what can I learn from this to make my flush load shoot better?

Thanks

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[358429]

I theory is: Its the consistent crimp when the mouth turns into the groove.

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[ABJ]

Over the years we have shot a lot of wadcutters, cast and hollowbase. Since your shooting an auto, your mag will only allow a specific length.
The amount and the profile of the crimp will play a huge roll in accuracy. The location of the crimp doesn't seem to make as big a difference. We never got a flush seated wadcutter to equal one seated proud in auto or revolvers' in terms of accuracy. My personal opinion on that is the differing amounts of case tension on flush seated affected accuracy. Also if you are not using wadcutter cases and/or using mixed headstamps will have case tension all over the board.
A couple of details here, my accuracy standards are very high as we shoot Bullseye matches. I expect 5 shots all touching at 25 yds at a CTC measurement of less than .7/.8 inchs. For the average shooter this level of accuracy is not worth chasing. In our autos we can't seat out to the crimp groove so we crimp on the front driving band seated just long enough not to bind in the mag. For revolvers we crimp in the crimp groove. The Bullseye load you are using is fine for a starting point but 2.9 gave us better accuracy with cast. The best loads in our testing was 3.4 grains of HP-38 or Unique, cast, crimped in the crimp groove. CAUTION these are light loads because of the increased OAL.

My standard test for crimp is using a Lee factory crimp die, is start by just closing the bell on the case mouth and just starting to turn in.(this is the least amount crimp that will prevent setback)
Second test group would be a quarter turn of the adjustment knob on top, and continue with each test group. Usually the third or fourth quarter turn depending on the specific boolit will show a marked accuracy improvement over the starting point. If you decide on crimping on the driving band instead of the crimp groove, reduce the 1/4 turns to 1/8 turns of maybe a little less. All these measurements are dependent on the brass thickness. If I am not using wadcutter cases and just making plinking ammo, Federal, Starline, CBC, Winchester and Remington in that order.
Sorry for "too much information" but the short answer to your last question is, same headstamp cases, crimp on the front driving band with as long an OAL as your mag will allow and do the crimp test.
Tony

[JoeJames]

I do not have an auto that shoots 38 Special, but in my revolvers - Model 15 & Model 67 - I always shoot wc's crimped lightly at the first groove, and they are accurate. My theory is that the first driving band above the first crimp groove is not compressed like it would be if flush seated, and that contributes to accuracy. Just my theory.

[dverna]

When I was serious...many moons ago....I bought a taper crimp die. The thinking was that with a taper crimp, slight differences in case length would not cause as much crimp variation. BTW I never trimmed pistol cases, but trimming to a constant length will address the issue with crimp variation as well. I was too lazy to trim so got the die.

You may be applying too much crimp and that will be exasperate any case length differences you have. Using mixed brass makes the problem worse. There should just a barely perceptible amount of crimp over the flush seated wadcutters.

But if your gun will function with the bullets seated out, and the accuracy is better, nothing wrong with seating the bullet proud of the case.

Checking accuracy of loads hand held is only good for evaluating if you have a poor load. To do the job right, you need a rest. I was lucky and had a buddy with a Ransom Rest and we would shoot 50 shot groups at 50 yards. For Bullseye, you need accuracy at 50 yards unless you only shoot indoors. Without a Ransom Rest, I suggest 10 shot groups as it is difficult to maintain concertation when shooting a lot of rounds.

[Martin Luber]

Brass selection matters; many case designs have taper inside. Seating a wc deep can either crush the base in (soft hbwc etc) or introduce a bulge in the case at bullet base. I'm not familiar with your bullet brand. Faster is better for cast. You can test the depth of insertion with l believe a 23/64 drill shank. +P is the worst. Most 38 sizer dies are too small for proper hbwc loads as they swage the bullet during seating. Try unresized cases to prove it. Or get a full bullet length expander plug that is around .360 diameter. I had to machine my own.

[45DUDE]

I have several 38 special Colts. I don't see groups better flush to sticking out. A factory Colt 38 special is a 5 shot and has to be flush like a model 52 S&W. I use 2.5 of bullseye in mine. If you have a Clark or custom 1911 that the slide unlocks like a 45 you need to let the boolit stick out about 1/8 inch and no crimp. I used to taper for auto but now I use a roll crimp die and back it off until it is the same size as the case. If you resize the case correctly the boolit wont move. If the boolit sticks out a bnwc will group better than a dewc. A flat base boolit works the best for me. A hbwc will tighten the group up. I would like to see a photo of both sides of your pistol. For target shooting stay with the same brand of brass. <I have shot my best group with junk 38 special brass.> With a good boolit seated flush a very small roll crimp is ok- especially on a bevel base boolit. I have 2 38 special autos that like 3.1 of Bullseye. <top load for autos- with a wheel gun you can go a little faster.>One More thing-If you are using a Colt NM they have a tight chamber and .358 is the max boolit size. I have one that has to be sized .357.

[Outpost75]

While 2.7-2.8 grains of Bullseye is traditional with HBWC bullets in .38 Special, and even lighter charges will be accurate for 50-foot indoor shooting and for 25 yards Timed and Rapid, the solid DEWCs will be more accurate at 50 yards with a heavier charge, especially in the slow-twist S&W barrels.

The Colt Gold Cup, S&W 52 and Hammerli 240 will have a sweet spot from 3.0-3.2 grains. This same range of charges also works splendidy in custom PPC revolvers and the Colt Python. For field and carry use you can safely increase the charge with solid DEWC bullets to 3.5 grains of Bullseye or TiteGroup or 4 grains of SR7625, HP38 or 231 and remain within standard pressure suitable for Airweight revolvers.

I always loaded the Saeco #348 DEWC bullet as-cast and unsized at 10 BHN and .360 diameter, to provide a friction fit in unsized cases, bulk lubing with Johnson Glo-Coat commercial liquid floor wax, 45-45-10 or LSStuff, then crimp separately using the Redding Profile Crimp die to size bullets as needed by compression inside the case, with the sprue cut forward and the bevel band exposed outside the case.

[Char-Gar]

I know zero about shooting these WCs in an autopistol being a revolver man. I shoot the DEWCs sized and lubed in the traditional way to .358. I set the spru scar up and taper crimp in the first lube band. I load 3/BE for the range and 3.5/BE for the field. I do trim cases to a uniform length.

[Gartenmeister]

Wow, thanks for all the quick replies. Sounds like crimp tension is where I need to concentrate. This is something I know very little about. Also, will play with upping the powder charge. Is there a certain FPS I should shoot for?

More info:

The brass is mixed for both loads. I have made some batches of the flush load using identical Federal cases and it does not seem to make any difference to accuracy. I understand what is being said about "wadcutter cases" but I am not sure where I would find any of those.

I'm just getting started with this, have been experimenting a bit, and as such my loading procedure has been different between the two loads. For the flush load I followed the Lee die instructions pretty closely. So the seating die is set so that it only seats the bullet, then there is a "Carbide Factory Crimp Die" that applies a "light crimp." For the bullet proud load I set the seating die to crimp on the crimp groove and skipped the crimp die since it seemed redundant. Here's a photo of both, not sure if there is anything to see here or not.

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I also have a 52-2. It shot so incredibly poorly with the flush handloads that it has been put away for the time being. It is a more challenging gun to shoot well. The 1911 offers more forgiveness which is good since we're using a sandbag and not a ransom rest. Also I cannot experiment with seating depth much with the 52, the magazines really require the bullet to be flush.

Both guns can shoot well with factory ammo. They really like WW Super Match but I'm stingy with my stash. They also do fine with mixed-brass 3D reman: HBWC (which I suspect the 52 really needs) and 3.0 or 3.1gr of flaky stuff:

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[Gartenmeister]

I would like to see a photo of both sides of your pistol.

As requested.

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[Char-Gar]

If accuracy is the goal, it begins with consistency. Consistent case capacity and thickness. This means same make and lot of brass cases. Consistency in powder charge. Consistency in crimp, which means uniform case length. If you don't do this, you will always be like the dog chasing his tail. You will not make "match grade" ammo, but blasting ammo which the newer set seems to love so much.

If you are looking for wadcutter brass, Starline 38 Special brass either regular of +P fills the bill.

[Outpost75]

Starline brass is a direct replacement for wadcutter brass. Select powder charge by best 50-yard grouping, not velocity over chronograph. Shoot three or more ten-shot groups and look for circular normal distribution with dense centers. Good handloads should be 2 inches or less at 50 yards from Ransom rest. Firing off bags if you have good eyesight you can approach that. Carefully observe shot holes for any yaw. If holes not perfectly round increase charge 0.2 grain and repeat.

[tazman]

Starline brass is a direct replacement for wadcutter brass. Select powder charge by best 50-yard grouping, not velocity over chronograph. Shoot three or more ten-shot groups and look for circular normal distribution with dense centers. Good handloads should be 2 inches or less at 50 yards from Ransom rest. Firing off bags if you have good eyesight you can approach that. Carefully observe shot holes for any yaw. If holes not perfectly round increase charge 0.2 grain and repeat.

This^^^^^^^
My eyes are not good enough to allow me to do that, but the concept is correct.

In my revolvers, my most accurate load was 3.5 of Bullseye with the button nosed wadcutter seated to the same overall length as a semi-wadcutter. Crimped in a lube groove about half way down the boolit. This allowed the front band of the wadcutter to enter the cylinder throat when placed in the cylinder. The boolit MUST be sized to a slip fit to the throat for this to work. It gives the best alignment of the boolit, throat, and barrel you can get with a revolver.
Unfortunately, they are slow loading in the cylinder. You have to push each one into the cylinder to get them deep enough. They will not just drop in.

[358429]

My preference is r-p or federal headstamp 38 special brass when loading either button nose/double ended wadcutters or keith semi-wadcutter bullets.

The brass with the cannelures is even softer and easier to flare and crimp.

It is the thinnest and easiest to assemble brass that is available to me, to assemble cast bullets into loaded ammunition.

I back off the de-primer/resizer so that it barely pops the old primer out, my goal being that does not size so far down, yet will still fit the chambers of 3 different guns without problems.

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[45DUDE]

As requested.

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289837

VERY NICE PISTOL. That looks like a John Giles gun made in Florida from in the '60's or '70's looking at the rear sights. When you take the barrel out drop a loaded round in the chamber. The bottom of the case is not supported. Anything over 3.1 of bullseye could blow the bottom of the case which will blow the mag out or the grips off or both. It wont hurt the gun -just your hand. You can't shoot a high pressure load in a converted 38 super or 9mm -to 38 special. Look at the brass when you shoot it. If it has a bulge at the rear that is a pressure sign you are too hot. That gun was made to shoot hbwc's. Does it have a '60's serial # or earlier? On the dewc flush load--I like 3.2 of American Select but not for hbwc. I have blown the base off of hbwc's seeing how fast they would go. 825fps is about the limit and be accurate. In your post #10 the boolit on the left needs to pushed a little lower an a little more crimp over the bevel nose. The other looks about right if it will chamber. Drop one in the chamber and make sure it is level with the hood and not sticking out a little and hitting the rifling. It may need to be seated a tad deeper.

[Gartenmeister]

VERY NICE PISTOL. That looks like a John Giles gun

Thanks, others have suggested the same.


When you take the barrel out drop a loaded round in the chamber. The bottom of the case is not supported. <SNIP> You can't shoot a high pressure load in a converted 38 super or 9mm -to 38 special. Look at the brass when you shoot it. If it has a bulge at the rear that is a pressure sign you are too hot.

It actually does not bulge cases, at least not with the loads I run in it. The 52 on the other hand, now that bulges cases. Badly.

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Does it have a '60's serial # or earlier?

Yes, serial is from 1947. My guess (based on context) is the gun was built in the very early 1960s.


In your post #10 the boolit on the left needs to pushed a little lower an a little more crimp over the bevel nose. The other looks about right if it will chamber. Drop one in the chamber and make sure it is level with the hood and not sticking out a little and hitting the rifling. It may need to be seated a tad deeper.

Thanks for the tips. The other drops in fine w/o getting pushed into the rifling, I definitely checked that before trying to shoot one. I can't get more than 3 in the mag though so they are going to have to get shorter.

[45DUDE]

Good clear photos--You lucked into a $2000 pistol. Seat some hbwc's 1/8 out and the problem will be solved. I know you didn't ask about magazines but good magazines are hard to find and going for about $150 if you can find one. Don't buy aftermarket. They almost always have to be tuned to the gun. I have mine marked to each gun with a sticker. Most of mine are marked Colt 38 special and were made for the NM models that came out in 1960. Triple K makes some but they wont work right in mine. I have some made from 38 super mags. They will all interchange but with the wrong one the slide won't lock back on the last shot-slide will lock back when firing-or have a jam. I have about 12 and got them mixed up a few years ago and took 6 months to get them straight. Just when I though I had one fixed the other would not work correctly . A custom Colt 1911 38 special is hard to make run. That is why only a hand full of gunsmiths could build one. Clark gets about $3500 if they still build them. I think Clark may be the only ones left if you have a problem. Let us know how the hbwc's shoot. I think they will cut the group close to 1/2. The 52 was designed to run on 2.7 Bullseye and a hbwc and not bulge the case seated flush.<My 38 super Colt to 38 special is from 1949 and built in the late '50's>THE 38 special slide stop is a little different from a 45acp also.