Odd performance out of 44-40

[TNtrapper]

Im having a weird issue in one of my 44-40s. Ive been playing with loads for my 1866 Uberti clone. Ive been trying to replicate my 1250 fps blackpowder loads using A2400. Ive managed to find the sweet spot with it getting 3/4" groups at 50 yards with cast Accurate 43215c bullets. Using 15.5 gr. of 2400 the 1866 is averaging 1270fps. Just for fun I shot these same loads through my Uberti 7.5" SAA and the velocity drops drastically to 500 fps. The bore on both the 1866 and SAA slug at .429 and these bullets are sized to .429. I loaded up a few sized to .430 through this Uberti and it made no difference at all. What is the problem here? I should be getting at least 750 fps out of these loads. Is it possible that 2400 is position sensitive in these 44-40 cases?

[Walks]

Position sensitive maybe. The 2400 I've ever used is Hercules/Alliant.
It maybe with the longer bbl of the 1866 clone that you are getting a complete burn of the A2400. And not in the revolver.
Are you allowing the revolver to recoil up and then bringing it down to level for the next shot ?
Or are you letting the muzzle go all the way down to a 45degree angle before bringing it up level for the next shot.
If your doing the later it could be the powder is dropping down against the bullet base rather then being held against the base/primer that would be as when you bring the bbl down from a muzzle up position.
Are you getting a complete burn in the revolver ?

[TNtrapper]

Well.....yessir when shooting the SAA I was dropping it down to a 45 angle between shots. In the 1866 Im seeing a few skeletons in the barrel...but with 2400 thats something thats always there to some degree. Now with the SAA its really bad seems like. I can shake them from the case after its ejected out. Hmmmmm.... I wonder if a little dacron filler might be called for?

[Savvy Jack]

Well.....yessir when shooting the SAA I was dropping it down to a 45 angle between shots. In the 1866 Im seeing a few skeletons in the barrel...but with 2400 thats something thats always there to some degree. Now with the SAA its really bad seems like. I can shake them from the case after its ejected out. Hmmmmm.... I wonder if a little dacron filler might be called for?

If you are dropping the barrel down, pointing at the ground, then all of the powder is going to the front of the case, under the bullet.

Contrary to popular belief, fillers increase chamber pressures.

[Wayne Smith]

Well.....yessir when shooting the SAA I was dropping it down to a 45 angle between shots. In the 1866 Im seeing a few skeletons in the barrel...but with 2400 thats something thats always there to some degree. Now with the SAA its really bad seems like. I can shake them from the case after its ejected out. Hmmmmm.... I wonder if a little dacron filler might be called for?

Or a faster powder? Just how wedded to 2400 are you for this application?

[Savvy Jack]

2400 and other mid-range rifle powders, such as IMR-4227, never were very satisfactory for use in revolvers when loaded for low chambers pressures. The 44-40 has to be loaded "light" with these slower burning powders in order to remain under SAAMI 11,000psi. The powders are then "position sensitive" unlike faster burning pistol powders. When using 2400 or IMR-4227 for revolvers, more powder is needed to burn proficient, but then creates pressures that are considered too high for revolver use as well as weak action rifles.


I don't mean to blab but below is the explanation......

Unique powder was actually introduced by Laflin & Rand back in 1900 as a "reduced rifle load" powder but is now referred to as a pistol powder. Unique is probably the best powder for these 44-40 revolver loads when it comes to "velocity vs pressure". However, Unique presses the limits of accuracy and low velocities in order to be "efficient" when used in a rifle beyond 100 yards.

The 44-40 lost it's "punch" when powder "companies" stopped making powders suitable for it as a "rifle". The best rifle smokeless powder was Sharpshooter and was used by Winchester until about 1960, retaining 1,325fps then down to 1,310fps in a rifle.

For use with Standard SAAMI Pressures of 11,000psi
Revolver - Unique/Bullesye
Weak Action Rifle out to 100 yards- Unique/2400/.....out to 265 yards 25gr of Reloder 7 (1,300fps)

For use with higher pressures that better replicate original pressures, pre-SAAMI max recommendations, ranging from 12,000pis to "High Velocity" 18,000psi pressures.
Strong Action Rifle out to 265 yards-
26gr of Reloder 7 with a harder crimps (1,400 to 1,550fps) at between 10,500psi and less than 15,000psi depending on the amount of crimp I use.
21gr of IMR-4227 @ 1,324fps at around 12,000psi
10gr of Unique only produces about 1,250fps at a cost of nearly 18,000psi

2400 fits in as well but I didn't test this powder much beyond published loads which can be seen here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cZyKKXVyHq9as9uFJiko5yReJ9a-ER32YsENTgJGJs4/edit#gid=2134817374

[Mal Paso]

2400 burns better the closer you get 40,000 psi.

[Bent Ramrod]

You might be able to get a more complete burn by increasing the crimp on the boolit. A Magnum pistol primer might improve things, too.

[Larry Gibson]

Powder positioning (as mentioned), too low pressure in the revolver for the 2400 to burn efficiently.

The cylinder throats are essentially 'freebore" in the revolver which is not in the rifle. The bullet "jump" to the forcing cone drastically increases the expansion volume before sufficient resistence to the bullet is met. Then, to really exacerbate the problem, the barrel cylinder gap relieve the pressure even more.

Use unique or similar powder in it's burning range.

[1Hawkeye]

Longer barrel equals more fps . Look in the lyman cast bullet book . A 200 gr with 8.3 grs of unique is 1250 fps from a 24" rifle but only 750 fps from a handgun.

[TNtrapper]

Hmmm…. How much of a pressure spike are we talking about? Saavy Jack… I have read the writings on the 44-40 and all I can say is wow! Very in depth.

[TNtrapper]

Powder positioning (as mentioned), too low pressure in the revolver for the 2400 to burn efficiently.

The cylinder throats are essentially 'freebore" in the revolver which is not in the rifle. The bullet "jump" to the forcing cone drastically increases the expansion volume before sufficient resistence to the bullet is met. Then, to really exacerbate the problem, the barrel cylinder gap relieve the pressure even more.

Use unique or similar powder in it's burning range.

Yessir I wasn’t considering the gap jump. Makes sense. I might have to go back to W231…. But I really hate those low charges. I’m always afraid of a double charge. I’m not quite as sharp as I once was… lol

[gwpercle]

Yessir I wasn’t considering the gap jump. Makes sense. I might have to go back to W231…. But I really hate those low charges. I’m always afraid of a double charge. I’m not quite as sharp as I once was… lol

Just look twice before seating a boolit .
I use a lot of fast powders because they work ... always leery of double or no charge in a case , so I have my operation set up so that I check the powder level 3 different times before a boolit is seated . Yes ... I'm a little paranoid about it ...but being paranoid about powder charging is Okay !

Have had No double charges in 50+ years ... the Third time is my charm !
Gary

[TNtrapper]

Well I think I’ve got the problem whipped. This afternoon I took the 1866 and SAA out to my range and was particular to chamber a round, point the muzzle at the sky, and ease down to firing position. I was real surprised when the first three shots showed 1455 to 1500 FPS out of the 1866. TOO HOT! So… I reduced my charge of 2400 to 15gr and added a .6gr tuft of dacron between the powder and bullet. Out of 12 rounds the velocity averaged 1300 FPS with a spread of only 26. Even the SAA is now hitting 865 FPS consistently. Moved out to 100 yards and the groups are right at 4”. With my eyes that’s about as good as it gets. As far as powder skeletons go….. very little. About as little of 2400 that I’ve ever seen. :grin:

[mehavey]

...might have to go back to W231…. But I really hate those low charges.
I’m always afraid of a double charge.Cut a 2" dowel and mark it w/ a pencil when dropped into charged case.
When you've finished loading powder into a block of cases,
drop the dowel into each case as check before bullet seating.
takes 60 seconds for full loading block -- a no brainer to sleep well.
:mrgreen:

As far as 2400 goes -- way too slow at the pressures you're running.
Being slow, it is position sensitive in partial fills, gives wild swings in velocity,
and dumps 25% out the muzzle even when it does burn well in a 20" barrel.
(Though your Dacron does alleviate the problem to a degree, it is another step)

Your HP-38/W231 is better.
Unique would be best.

[Outpost75]

Larry nailed it. The slower "magnum" pistol and faster rifle powders similar to Alliant #2400, IMR4227 or RL7 work best in rifles or revolvers only with barrels longer than 6 inches. In short barrel revolvers the powders of choice in .44-40 are Bullseye. TiteGroup, WST, 452AA, Red Dot, Unique, Herco, or Autocomp adjusted to attain 900 fps revolver or 1250-1300 fps carbine. I use 6.0 grains of Bullseye, 700X, Red Dot, WST or 452AA as start load with 200 grain bullets, adjusting up a half grain or so in the Group 1 guns and up to a full.grain in the S&W 544, Rugers, Marlins and Winchester 92 clones.

[Savvy Jack]

Hmmm…. How much of a pressure spike are we talking about? Saavy Jack… I have read the writings on the 44-40 and all I can say is wow! Very in depth.

From a 20", 1 1/4" diameter barrel (Velocities from a 24" rifle barrel do show an increase in velocities).

Test #/ LOAD/POWDER/BULLET/Manufacture/Velocity FPS/Est PSI/Est CUP/OAT F
35/15gr/2400/210 LRNFP/427098/1,114/8,130/<9,600/41
32/16gr/2400/200 JHP/Speer 4425/1,300/8,992/<10,650/45
13/20gr/2400/180 JHP/Hornady XTP/1,554/13,727/<16,500/38
31/20gr/2400/200 JHP/Speer 4425/1,672/15,618/<18,500/45
24/20gr/2400/210 JHC/Sierra/1,640/19,500/>22,000/39


Test #/ LOAD/POWDER/BULLET/Manufacture/Velocity FPS/Est PSI/Est CUP/OAT F
21/25gr/Reloder 7/208 LRNFP/43-210B/1,291/9,126/<11,000/39
20/25gr/Reloder 7/200 LRNFP/Acme Magma/1,348/9,575/<11,500/39
63/26gr/Reloder 7/217 LRNFP/43-215C/1,384/10,485/<12,500/20
37/26.5gr/Reloder 7/210 LRNFP/427098/1,432/11,373/<13,500/41
72/26.5gr/Reloder 7/217 LRNFP/43-215C/1,469/12,971/<15,500/50
47/26.5gr/Reloder 7/217 LRNFP/43-215C/Fog/13,084/<15,500/43
Win 73'/25.8gr/Reloder 7/215 LRNFP/43-214A/1,350/Win 73'/
Win 73'/26gr/Reloder 7/215 LRNFP/43-214A/1,450/Win 73'/85/Heavy Crimp..., 10" 10 shot groups at 200 yards

SAAMI 11,000psi Max

I settled on 26gr of Reloder 7 and a 43-214A and a mild crimp from a Redding Profile Crimp Die. Velocity reduced to 1,350fps from a 24" rifle barrel
I have also used this load in my Magnum frame revolver (tad larger cylinder) and got 953fps and 925fps with two ten shot groups.
I have yet to "document" any 2400 loads in the revolver although I did shoot them years back.

Test #/LOAD/POWDER/BULLET/Manufacture/Velocity FPS/Est PSI/Est CUP/OAT F/Target
21/25gr/Reloder 7/208 LRNFP/43-210B/1,291/9,126/<11,000/39/
6/7.9gr/Unique/205 LRNFP/427098/1,146/8,335/ <10,000/38/
30/7.9gr/Unique/205 LRNFP/427098/1,117/9,315/<11,500/45/Lyman's 49th Max Load Group I
7/8.5gr/Unique/200 JHP/Speer 4425/1,062/9,787/<11,500/38/Using CCI-300 Primers, Not WLP's
33/8.5gr/Unique/200 JHP/Speer 4425/1,164/11,363/<13,500/45Lyman's 49th Max Load Group I, 13,300cup
82/9gr/Unique/200 RNFP/Laser Cast/1,305/12,645/<15,000/41/233/5 1/2" Groups @ 100 yards, Fog
15/10gr/Unique/200 LRNFP/Acme Magma/1,419/14,007/<17,000/38/Taffin Load, Gunsmagazine Nov 2005
26/10.2gr/Unique/200 JHP/Speer 4425/NA/14,753/<17,500/39/Lyman's 49th Max Load Group II, 1,282fps @ 19,600cup
14/10gr/Unique/200 JHP/Hornady XTP/1,292/15,400/<18,500/38/
34/10.5gr/Unique/210 LRNFP/43-208A/1,451/16,660/<20,000/45/
29/10.5gr/Unique/205 LRNFP/427098/1,469/17,837/<21,000/45/Lyman's 49th Max Load Group II, 19,700cup
27/10.5gr/Unique/217 LRNFP/43-215C/NA/ 19,628/>22,000/39/
50/12gr/Unique/200 LRNFP/Acme Magma/1,635/ 21,786/>25,000/43/216D/WLP's
Win 73'/8.6gr/ Unique/215 LRNFP/43-214A/1,220Win 73'/Scoped/65/9-29-2021-6 12.116" 10 shot group @ 200 yards...

The spreadsheets can be viewed here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cZyKKXVyHq9as9uFJiko5yReJ9a-ER32YsENTgJGJs4/edit#gid=651705900