Patching regular boolits

[NSP64]

Can you patch a regular boolit? What I mean by regular is regular. If you cast a boolit at .280 can you size it to .278 then patch and size to .278? I got some new molds this weekend and one was a Lyman 280473 and it casts beautifully. So I sized some to .278 rolled them in 2 wraps of tracing paper. After drying I covered the paper in some thinned LLA and sized back down to .278. Loaded them over 13.5gr unique and was getting 1700fps with 3" groups at 50yrds:( should I work them up to 'J' velocity or just lube and GC?

[docone31]

NSP64,
That is all I do. I get great results. Period. I size both my .30cal and .303 castings to .308, then two wraps of notebook paper. I size my .30cal to .309, and my .303 to .314. I use the start data for my patched loads. I am getting amazing groups with both calibers. I am especially pleased with my .303, known for just an ammo waster. How about routine 1" groups at 100yds. Point of aim with the scope. I am probably pushing both at least 2500.
I had gotten some smooth sided castings from a member to try. Someday, I might get Lee to make me a double cavity.
Try car wax, or JPW for sizing lube instead of LLA. It works for me. Simple, wipe on, wipe off, size and leave it. Water does not soak in. Might make an all weather paper patch. Who knows.
Instead of Traceing Paper, try notebook paper, or computer paper, then down size.
Just food for thought.
I consider my patches to be like jacketed with load data.
So far so good.
I tried that with plain gas checked castings. Well, I learned. 20min of berm was lesson enough.
I do not know how they will behave with black powder. I only load with smokeless. I use 38-40gns of 4895 in both cases. 35gns was so light for them the necks were black with soot. 38gns, no soot, no issues.
Try it, you like it.

[docone31]

I forgot to add,
Try it with a cigarette roller. At that size, it should fit right in.
When I use mine, I lay them down soaking wet, roll them, they come out lightly damp. Tight, wrinkle free, ready to twist.
Makes for a relaxing evening wrapping.
Is that what they mean, when they say,
Yo! U a rappa?
Does that make me a rappa?

[NSP64]

I was wondering because the rifle shoots the boolit good. The boolit without the GC looks like a Boattail design and I thought it would be good shooting. I was getting confetti and round holes in the target.

[docone31]

Dude, I know the feeling.
I had just spoken to my wife about the merits of independance from ordering projectiles, getting gas checks, stinking up the house refineing lead on the kitchen stove, loading up 100 to what was the advertised size, going to the range and scareing people!
After finally slugging the barrel, I was grossly undersized for the rifle, and reading on THIS forum, the beginning size to wrap with .308, both the .30, and .303. Final size on the .30cals was .309, on the .303 was .314. I had to get converted dies for that one.
First day at the range, I loaded 40 sized to .3135. Better, but nothing to write home about.
I had found chatter marks in the barrel, so, knowing it was wrapped undersized anyway, I smeared some Clover on the wrap. I figuired, 20 wrapped with fine lapping compound should clean the bore. If not, I can swap barrels easily enough.
Those cleaning rounds, out of that rifle, 19 of them, were in the 10 ring first time out! I couldn't believe it. I was shooting better than jacketeds!
I went home, figuired the lapping compound added some so I wrapped to .314.
Went to the range, and whammo! I was in the 10 ring, over and over. It got to the point where I was putting paper plates up and just grouping around the starter hole.
I had only the Lee molds for my caliber. I figuired sizing would slim them down, so I sized away. From that day till now, I have been using those molds.
I got some .312 jacketed bullets. They are ok, but paper outshoots them in my rifle. I have also added zinc to the castings. Lots of heat, hard as a rock, size hard, popped a toggle in my press the other day. When they hit anything, they fragment into sharp pieces.
No key holes though. All go straight through.
I use dish soap to lube through the die. Washes off great with water.
I am convinced, paper is the way to go. A roofer dropped off a lot of lead for me. Way cool. I bet they shoot well with paper also.

[NSP64]

Here some pics;
10562

The boolits on the right are the cramer b2's and the ones on the left are the lyman 280473 the cramers have a small nose and the driving bands are to the rear. The lymans engage the rifling just behind the ojive and the driving bands are forward at the COG. This was after drying prior to sizing.

[NSP64]

So with the long nose you would think the cramers wouldn't shoot.
1056310564
The target on the left was the PP'd cramers, rt was the PP'd lymans(only 4 shot, 1 fell off the bench and dented)
both loaded with 13.5gr unique. Maybee I'll load some pp'd cramers and start @ 'J' start load.

[docone31]

The Cramers are the ones I would use. I would go a little further up on the wrap.
The wraps are a little loose. I might also suggest going with an heavier paper, or three wraps traceing paper. Those wrinkles come right out with a cigarette roller.
Looking good so far.
What cartridge are you wrapping for?
With 13.5gns of Unique, are there any carbon signs on the neck? When I am sized dead on, I get no carbon signs. .005 under, and the necks are black onto the case itself on one side.
I also cut my strips 1" wide. I get very little trim after drying.
The Lymans also look like a good candidate. It is a toss up, which will perform better with wrapping.
I find, with my .30s, .001 overbore is good for the nose.
Definately try a rolling machine with those. It is so simple and effective it is almost a disappointment.
Great wrapping start.
Can't wait to see it dialed in.
I hope you get my results.
My .303, I start with 38.4gns of 4895. I suspect, the paper patched loads are lighter in the bore and operation than equivalent loads jacketed. Using the 37gn start load data, I get carbon sign on the neck. With the lighter load, my groups are a little wider than with 38.4gns.
Again, two wraps of notebook paper. I started with Traceing paper. I would have had to do four wraps to equal the notebook paper. I tried three wraps also. That with a little grit added was how I found my sweet spot. The grit widened the felt footprint of the wrapping.
You be doing good so far.
Try a roller. It will get boring that way.

[NSP64]

Docone31, can you post a pic of your roller?

[NSP64]

I'm loading for 270 winchester, the cramer & lyman are both 125gr. For your 303 what weight boolit are you patching?

[docone31]

For both my .30s and .303 British, I cast 180gn.
This is a rolling machine.
http://www.ryotobacco.com/page/ryot/PROD/hroll/rayo70
I had watched the patching tuturials, videos, and read here for about six months. I surfed that long before I joined. Since I do roll my own cigarettes, I wondered if......
Well, I got out a new roller, cut my strips, wet them, laid them in, put the casting on top of the paper, closed it and rolled my own.
BadaBing, BadaBoom!
Dead on right out of the box.
The larger castings will need enlargeing of the machine grooves, but other than that, it is simple.
You can get these at any convience store, or tobacco shop.
Try it, you like it.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Loaded them over 13.5gr unique and was getting 1700fps with 3" groups at 50yrds should I work them up to 'J' velocity or just lube and GC?

My answer would be yes start with a "starting load" from a copper-clad bullet recipe and work your way up to full power.

I had dismal results when I was trying to "go easy" on the paper jacket, thinking it was to be handled delicately. Not so. The paper will take just about anything copper would. The limitations with paper-patched boolits are due to problems caused after the bullet leaves the muzzle. Soft lead doesn't tolerate the spin and the atmospheric friction.

[pdawg_shooter]

Soft lead will work fine up to about 2200fps. An alloy of 12.0/12.5 BHN will work up to about 2600fps and with 15.0/15.5 BHN I have gone to 3000 BHN.

[NSP64]

I think the lite is on finally. If I take my crammer B2 Boolits that cast .278 WDWW and wrap them twice (unsized) with notebook paper, let them dry, smear a little JPW on them and size to .278. I unwrapped 1 and measured it .271. Bore is .270. patch was smooth and tight. I got snowed in last night but I'll make it to the range today[smilie=1:

[docone31]

I am looking forward to your results!
That is the path I would take.
Use the cigarette roller, get them on tight!

[NSP64]

Yesterday I loaded up some PP'd cramer B2 boolits WDWW as cast .278-121 gr. 2 wraps notebook paper, JPW after drying sized to .278 Loaded some @ 15.0(a),15.3(b),15.6(c)gr unique. No chrono as it was sunny 21*F and 8" snow.
11033
15.6 was the winner:drinks:
range 50 yrds. Temp this weekend is supposed to get to 34*F, so I'll try to chronny. the 15.6gr load is the center group measuring 7/8"CTC. Bullseye was POA.
Tried three with 44gr IMR 4895,only 1 hit the paper.

[docone31]

Don't see any keyholes.
Looking good.
I am suprised the heavier charge is doing that. Hmmm.
I also paper patch regular castings with great success.
I do not crimp the patched catings.
Let us all find out why the 44gns is a blooper.

[NSP64]

If the heavy unique loads are around 2000 fps, that would be great. I am doing this to try and get a load that performs well and doesn't take a lot of powder.
6000 gr = 1lb
30 gr load = 200 loads per pound
15 gr load = 400 loads per pound.
:drinks:

[docone31]

Sounds like a plan..
I just stuff em with surplus 4895.
I like it.

[montana_charlie]

6000 gr = 1lb
We're kinda backward up here in Montana, but in this dry air 7000 grains equals one pound.
CM

[NSP64]

OK
7000 gr per pound
30gr load=233 loads
15 gr = 466 loads
better yet.

[NSP64]

Went to the range yesterday and shot for velocity. 1load 15.6gr U, 3 diferent loaded OAl's. Shortest gave 1990fps longest 1900fps, Guess if you load long to engage the rifling you need to increase powder to up the velocity.

[leftiye]

NSP might have unwittingly hit on the formula to determine ideal size for the boolit before patching. As he did - wrap a groove diameter boolit with the desired to use paper, and size to groove diameter plus .001". Unwrap, and measure new diameter of boolit. This tells you what size the boolit should be so that no further sizing takes place in the barrel with that paper.

[NSP64]

NSP might have unwittingly hit on the formula to determine ideal size for the boolit before patching. As he did - wrap a groove diameter boolit with the desired to use paper, and size to groove diameter plus .001". Unwrap, and measure new diameter of boolit. This tells you what size the boolit should be so that no further sizing takes place in the barrel with that paper.

Thanks.................................I think.

[P Patcher]

NSP might have unwittingly hit on the formula to determine ideal size for the boolit before patching. As he did - wrap a groove diameter boolit with the desired to use paper, and size to groove diameter plus .001". Unwrap, and measure new diameter of boolit. This tells you what size the boolit should be so that no further sizing takes place in the barrel with that paper.

I'll put in two cent's worth on this one. I think this trick has been used by many of us at times when we didn't have the proper size die to reduce diameter for PP but in my case the paper was almost always loose after sizing and the bullet needed to be repatched. As I said this has been my experience with the paper I use, other's could very well have different result's.
Addison