Non Ethanol Gas Is Cheaper Than Ethanol Blend

[jonp]

I first noticed this about a month or so ago. The 15% ethanol blend gas was more expensive than the non-ethanol. This morning when I filled the truck I saw that the 87 Octane Blend was 10 Cents more expensive than the 89 Octane pure gas.

$3.09 87 Octane 15% ethanol
$2.99 89 Octane pure gas

Another benefit is that my truck has had the check engine light on for almost 2yrs. Checked it and it is the engine knock sensor. After using non-ethanol for several weeks the light went out.

[Cast10]

Wow! I’ll have to check this out. We locally have availability to non-E and use it on power tools, ATVs, boat, and the M38 Jeep! That Ethenol has been tough on diaphragms! Oh, its 90 octane here, too!

[jonp]

Wow! I’ll have to check this out. We locally have availability to non-E and use it on power tools, ATVs, boat, and the M38 Jeep! That Ethenol has been tough on diaphragms! Oh, its 90 octane here, too!

Let me know on the prices. I'm curious as to whether this is a local thing or not. I'm assuming that the difference has to do with the skyrocketing commodity prices.

[Shawlerbrook]

Not here in the People’s Republik of NY. Non ethanol is at least .50 more a gallon. I use it in all my small engines and anything with a carburetor.

[georgerkahn]

I am a FIRM user of non-ethanol petrol in anything and everything other than my Toyota Tacoma truck (or ;) diesel tractor)! However, in my area only Sunoco stations purvey ethanol-free. It is their premium/hi-test, and the going rate is $3.999 USD per gallon, while "regular-grade" Essence sells at $3.399 per U S gallon.
With lawn mowers, generators, chainsaws (w/ 2-cycle oil added) and similar have OPEN air fuel system motors -- as opposed to vehicles having CLOSED to outside air fuel systems -- they are ever so more able to suck in water from the outside air as well as in other ways degrade quite rapidly. I have gotten "lied to at the pump" where a labeled as ethanol-free pump was not! Within but a few weeks, the chipper I was using STOPPED! Draining the tank, its bottom had a quite creamy substance -- the affects from the ethanol fuel; a rinse and carb cleaning was necessitated :(!
Still -- the local repair shop has a $75.00 walk-in minimal repair fee per unit -- I reckon I can pay the 60 cents per gallon more for the ethanol free, plus having the added benefit of the higher octane (which enables engine to run cooler) -- and -- versus even one carb cleaning from using ethanol-added fuel -- be many dollars ahead!
I envy you/your location with the ethanol free at a lower cost!
geo

[jonp]

There are a couple of stations that sell non-ethanol. This one that I use most often is a Shell and with my fueler card I get another 5 Cents off. We always pay with Credit Union CC that gives another 5% off on top of that. It's all I use in all of the vehicles along with StaBil Marine in the small engine gas.

This morning I paid $2.99 - $.05 = $2.94 - 5% ~ $2.79/gal Non Ethanol 89 Octane

[dverna]

Are you positive is was non-Ethanol? Or are you comparing regular 10% to the 15% blend?

We are at $.50 or so more for non-Ethanol over the 10-%.

[rbuck351]

The only non ethanol here is premium 91 octane at 50 cents per gallon higher than regular. I haven't had any problems with the ethanol blend but I would rather not use it.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Let me know on the prices. I'm curious as to whether this is a local thing or not. I'm assuming that the difference has to do with the skyrocketing commodity prices.

I don't know the octane numbers off the top of my head, but here in So Central MN prices are like this...
E15 is $2.88
E10 is $2.92
E0 is $3.45

[jonp]

Are you positive is was non-Ethanol? Or are you comparing regular 10% to the 15% blend?

We are at $.50 or so more for non-Ethanol over the 10-%.

Don, the pump says "non-ethanol". It could be anything I guess, but doesn't say a lessor blend of some type. I'm not sure how to test it to verify it's what it says as I don't have any glass beakers to look at fuel combination to test it. I might do that. Pour a known amount of water into a beaker or cup. Add gas and see it the known water gets larger which would indicate ethanol as it combines with the ethanol and gas will not. A glass bottle or plastic water bottle would work with two marks on it, one near the bottom and one higher. Fill it with water to the lower mark then gasoline to be tested to the higher one. Shake it up and see if the water level at the bottom mark increases.
The station is owned by the same people that I get my propane from. Suppose I could ask them this week.

[quilbilly]

Around here the non-ethanol approached a dollar more per gallon than ethanol 10

[Geezer in NH]

We use AV gas on all our small engines. Mowers, trimmers, roto-tillers, chain saws, water pumps. If we had a 4 wheeler or utility sxs they would get it also.

Higher octane, no alcohol closer than a regular gas station. Many classic cars in our area that don't call for non-lead use it also.

[Finster101]

We use AV gas on all our small engines. Mowers, trimmers, roto-tillers, chain saws, water pumps. If we had a 4 wheeler or utility sxs they would get it also.

Higher octane, no alcohol closer than a regular gas station. Many classic cars in our area that don't call for non-lead use it also.

I used to use that in my hot-rod Harley. Had to take a lot of timing out of it with anything else. Now no one around here sells it.

[Winger Ed.]

There is a lot of hanky-panky going on between the well head and the filler nozzle at your gas station,
but producing the alcohol and getting it into the fuel blend costs more than just old school straight gasoline.

When it first came out, the blended stuff cost more because alcohol is more expensive than gasoline.
So gas prices went up.

Then,,,,,,,, the non-alcohol fuel cost more-- if you could find it.
I guess now days, its costs more to leave it out than to produce & put it in.

[Scrounge]

I first noticed this about a month or so ago. The 15% ethanol blend gas was more expensive than the non-ethanol. This morning when I filled the truck I saw that the 87 Octane Blend was 10 Cents more expensive than the 89 Octane pure gas.

$3.09 87 Octane 15% ethanol
$2.99 89 Octane pure gas

Another benefit is that my truck has had the check engine light on for almost 2yrs. Checked it and it is the engine knock sensor. After using non-ethanol for several weeks the light went out.

Not here, anyway. Filled up this morning. No-ethanol gas was $3.099/gallon, 10% ethanol gas was $2.699. That is at OnCue, and for the 87 octane gas.

[cupajoe]

I have to drive to the next county to get non-ethanol gas to use in the yard equip and tractor. About a dollar a gallon higher than the gas with squeezins.

[Wayne Smith]

Around here I'd have to go to the local boatyard to get non-ethonal I would guess. It is not usually locally available except for boats.

[BJK]

That doesn't surprise me since it takes a gallon of fossil fuel to produce a gallon of ethanol. It's a subsidy that comes out of our pocket in taxes that keeps the ethanol boat afloat. It never was cost effective, it was always a complete scam. Pure politics aimed at the corn belt. It also removed food from the plate. A win-win for the evil folks driving this stuff. At least that's my understanding of it.

[john.k]

Dont forget the sugar billionaires.....sugar waste to ethanol is nice little profit centre......only catch used to be there was so much surplus ethanol ,price was less than cost of production......not now its in gasoline.

[Gator 45/70]

Ha, Try a gallon of pre-mix 50:1 from Lowes,Will destroy a 20 dollar bill.

[dverna]

Ha, Try a gallon of pre-mix 50:1 from Lowes,Will destroy a 20 dollar bill.

The owner of the hunt camp uses that stuff. So much cheaper to buy Rec Gas (0% ethanol), add good 2 stroke oil and Seafoam.

[BigAlofPa.]

We have one station that sells non ethanol gas. Since he has the monopoly on it. It is much higher than E10. Over a buck a gallon more. The guy who owns the station is one of the richest people in the area. He has other business's. He's also a jerk too.

[Geezer in NH]

The little airport is closer than the nearest gas station for me.

[para45lda]

For those that care.

When getting the non-ethanol fuel, I always pump a few gallons into the truck first to purge the system so to speak.

Don't know if it helps, but I feel better!

Wes

[Winger Ed.]

Ha, Try a gallon of pre-mix 50:1 from Lowes,Will destroy a 20 dollar bill.

Same with the old original 'white gas', or clear 'no Lead' labeled as 'Coleman fuel'.

[Froogal]

That doesn't surprise me since it takes a gallon of fossil fuel to produce a gallon of ethanol. It's a subsidy that comes out of our pocket in taxes that keeps the ethanol boat afloat. It never was cost effective, it was always a complete scam. Pure politics aimed at the corn belt. It also removed food from the plate. A win-win for the evil folks driving this stuff. At least that's my understanding of it.
Ever hear of distillers grain? That is what is left after the ethanol is extracted. Distiller's grain can be and IS a viable livestock feed. Beef, pork, poultry, etc. The livestock will do as well on distillers grain as it will on regular corn, so NO, we have not lost any of our food. Also, the corn used for ethanol production is not the same type of corn that humans consume, so again, producing ethanol DID NOT take ANY of our food away from us.

[firefly1957]

The old white gas was unleaded fuel but only like 80 or 82 octane.

10% ethanol will drop your fuel mileage about 7% .
In 2012 I drove my 2000 motor home across the country filled up with premium that was cheaper in Minnesota somehow I missed it was E-15 Fuel economy sucked but no harm was done . I have found that will pure unleaded 87 octane fuel the Motorhome gets 21.4 mpg ,10% ethanol 10.2 MPG and on that E-15 I only got 7.5 mpg .
With carbureted cars and trucks I found 10% alcohol really did not effect fuel economy 15% alcohol caused some issues with drivability and mileage started to drop .

[Winger Ed.]

producing ethanol DID NOT take ANY of our food away from us.

I didn't know it was a different variety of corn.

But farmers only have so much land in production.
If they grow the corn for fuel, it takes away land that could produce the kind we eat, as well as the kind for live stock food.

With less of one kind grown, supply of it goes down, and the price of it goes up.
It wouldn't exactly take away from the food supply since we over produce it to sell all over the world, but the prices did go up.

[rockrat]

Non alcohol gas is pennies short of $4/gallon

[imashooter2]

Is this e0 gas legal for over the road use? Seems to me if e0 was legal no one would use e10 or e15.

I suspect it’s like using home heating oil in a diesel truck.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

The old white gas was unleaded fuel but only like 80 or 82 octane.

10% ethanol will drop your fuel mileage about 7% .
In 2012 I drove my 2000 motor home across the country filled up with premium that was cheaper in Minnesota somehow I missed it was E-15 Fuel economy sucked but no harm was done . I have found that will pure unleaded 87 octane fuel the Motorhome gets 21.4 mpg ,10% ethanol 10.2 MPG and on that E-15 I only got 7.5 mpg .
With carbureted cars and trucks I found 10% alcohol really did not effect fuel economy 15% alcohol caused some issues with drivability and mileage started to drop .

Not necessarily.
20 years ago, I was commuting in a 1988 Honda Civic CRX (2 seater). With their ultra light chassis and their well designed 1.6 Ltr engine (multiport throttlebody fuel injection) and 5spd manual, they were known to get 45 to 50 MPG. That's about the time E85 started showing up an most all gas stations in Minnesota. While E85 wasn't recommended for non-E85 setup cars, it is/was heavily subsidized, so I started blending increasingly more amounts of E85 in with regular gas. I got to about 50% and the car still worked fine...that's when I decided to do an experiment where I was blending the E7 (which was the mandated ethanol mix in MN at that time) with E85 so my full tank was about at E50.

I tested several tanks, winter and summer. I compared E50 to both, E7 and E0. Documenting the mileage, throttle response, and the feel of power (mostly wind resistance was this car's nemesis since I live in the flat lands of the USA).

I averaged the same MPG ...and overall power felt the same (maybe the car's power to weight ratio was so, that I wouldn't notice a lack of power with E50? ...but I did notice throttle response was less with the E50, but I can say the E7 and E0 felt the same.

[Cast10]

Let me know on the prices. I'm curious as to whether this is a local thing or not. I'm assuming that the difference has to do with the skyrocketing commodity prices.

https://imgur.com/a/zFZKWlP

[megasupermagnum]

Is this e0 gas legal for over the road use? Seems to me if e0 was legal no one would use e10 or e15.

I suspect it’s like using home heating oil in a diesel truck.

E0? It's called unleaded gasoline, and yes it's legal to run on the road in every state I know of. E10 as you call it, is nothing but gasoline watered down government subsidized ethanol. If the price was the same, nobody would ever run it ever again, but it isn't. Our tax dollars are used to make 10% ethanol gasoline cheaper than straight gasoline. It isn't all bad, it props up corn farmers.

[rking22]

On the fuel economy E10 vs straight gas, I show a clear and repeatable loss of 10% mpg when using the alcohol gas. 96 Z71 vortec 350, 2003 5.3, and 2002 3800 v6. 10 %added ethanol =10% loss of fuel economy. I would not burn the stuff if pure gas was anywhere close to 10% more, more like 30% more expensive here. And it’s perfectly legal to run pure gas on the road, as if I cared…

[imashooter2]

E0? It's called unleaded gasoline, and yes it's legal to run on the road in every state I know of. E10 as you call it, is nothing but gasoline watered down government subsidized ethanol. If the price was the same, nobody would ever run it ever again, but it isn't. Our tax dollars are used to make 10% ethanol gasoline cheaper than straight gasoline. It isn't all bad, it props up corn farmers.

Forgive me for using the nomenclature the rest of the posters have been using. The question was, does e0 have the taxes paid on it to allow over the road use in all 50 states? A bit of research indicates that there are 7 states that require e10: Louisiana, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, Oregon, Pennsylvania, and Washington.

[megasupermagnum]

I can tell you right off the bat, Minnesota does not have such a requirement. You can legally purchase, and burn regular gasoline in Minnesota in your car.

[imashooter2]

In PA, they don’t label it as e10, they label it as regular 87 octane. The only mention of ethanol is on small stickers on the pumps. If you were from out of state you wouldn’t likely notice.

[megasupermagnum]

In MN they have 91 octane gasoline, they call non-oxygenated. It's at almost every station out there, except the very small ones like bait stores that only have a single pump. South Dakota has had both 87 octane gasoline, and 87 octane with 10% ethanol at every station I've been to.

[imashooter2]

Interesting.

[fiberoptik]

In Mexico at least, they eat field corn.
My understanding is that it takes more energy to make ethanol than what it makes burning it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[megasupermagnum]

It wouldn't surprise me. I don't think ethanol was originally added for any other reason than to subsidize corn, being as crop farmers without government assistance and insurance would barely break even. It's either that, or a free market would have food prices raise dramatically. Personally I'd rather have a more free market.

[Froogal]

I didn't know it was a different variety of corn.

But farmers only have so much land in production.
If they grow the corn for fuel, it takes away land that could produce the kind we eat, as well as the kind for live stock food.

With less of one kind grown, supply of it goes down, and the price of it goes up.
It wouldn't exactly take away from the food supply since we over produce it to sell all over the world, but the prices did go up.


Yellow corn is used for livestock feed and to make ethanol. WHITE corn for corn flakes and such, and of course there is sweetcorn which not only is eaten fresh, but also frozen and canned for sale at your grocery store, and we must not forget POPCORN, which is different from all the others.

Have you ever noticed a shortage of corn flakes at the grocery store?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I can tell you right off the bat, Minnesota does not have such a requirement. You can legally purchase, and burn regular gasoline in Minnesota in your car.

well, as far as Minnesota Law goes, it's allowed to be used in collector cars...but not in modern cars/trucks.
WITH THAT SAID, it just isn't enforced by anyone. Before a good old fashioned Minnesota cold spell, I usually fill the tank with Non-oxy, cuz when the temperature goes well below zero, Non-oxy starts the car more reliably.

If you read the Non-Oxy sticker on a fuel pump in MN, it'll say, For use "only" in collector cars and recreational small engines...or some sort of wording.

https://www.familyhandyman.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/FH16JUN_GASOLI_08.jpg?fit=630,630

[megasupermagnum]

I can honestly say I've never read the sticker on the pump, I've not seen one quite like your link. If it truly is not meant to be sold in MN for new cars and trucks, then they sure make it fine print. It isn't like the off-road diesel, which they practically red tape that pump, there's no mistakes being made there.

[imashooter2]

well, as far as Minnesota Law goes, it's allowed to be used in collector cars...but not in modern cars/trucks.
WITH THAT SAID, it just isn't enforced by anyone. Before a good old fashioned Minnesota cold spell, I usually fill the tank with Non-oxy, cuz when the temperature goes well below zero, Non-oxy starts the car more reliably.

If you read the Non-Oxy sticker on a fuel pump in MN, it'll say, For use "only" in collector cars and recreational small engines...or some sort of wording.

https://www.familyhandyman.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/FH16JUN_GASOLI_08.jpg?fit=630,630

And that is exactly what I thought. My bet is the remaining 6 "must use" states have similar requirements.

[shooterg]

Ever hear of distillers grain? That is what is left after the ethanol is extracted. Distiller's grain can be and IS a viable livestock feed. Beef, pork, poultry, etc. The livestock will do as well on distillers grain as it will on regular corn, so NO, we have not lost any of our food. Also, the corn used for ethanol production is not the same type of corn that humans consume, so again, producing ethanol DID NOT take ANY of our food away from us.

ALthough I'm guessing something edible COULDA been raised on the acreage.

[Geezer in NH]

Bet they do not stain it like off road diesel.

[megasupermagnum]

Bet they do not stain it like off road diesel.

No. There is absolutely no way to tell straight gasoline from gas with ethanol by sight or smell. I've lived this long, and until imashooter2, nobody has every given me any reason to believe that running straight gasoline in a car or truck was illegal. And that's in Minnesota, where they would put child locks on pop bottles if they could.

[imashooter2]

Happy to be of service! :drinks::kidding:[smilie=l:

[oldscool]

I guess I am old enough I never saw on the internet that you could not eat yellow or field corn till now.

[megasupermagnum]

I guess I am old enough I never saw on the internet that you could not eat yellow or field corn till now.

"You've Accidentally Given Me The Food That My Food Eats" - Ron Swanson

[jonp]

I guess I am old enough I never saw on the internet that you could not eat yellow or field corn till now.

I remember eating "cow corn" when I was a kid. Besides being extra chewy I can't say it did us any harm.

[jonp]

well, as far as Minnesota Law goes, it's allowed to be used in collector cars...but not in modern cars/trucks.
WITH THAT SAID, it just isn't enforced by anyone. Before a good old fashioned Minnesota cold spell, I usually fill the tank with Non-oxy, cuz when the temperature goes well below zero, Non-oxy starts the car more reliably.

If you read the Non-Oxy sticker on a fuel pump in MN, it'll say, For use "only" in collector cars and recreational small engines...or some sort of wording.

https://www.familyhandyman.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/FH16JUN_GASOLI_08.jpg?fit=630,630

I have to say that this is the first time I've heard the Non Oxy thing. I had no idea it refers to Non Ethanol and I didn't know that some states ban it's use in vehicles. I always thought the much higher price for "regular" or straight gas besides being the product of corn subsidzes was intended to persuade people not to use it anymore

[fastdadio]

Running non ethanol is legal in most states. It is a taxed fuel. It's sold here in Mi. as a recreational fuel at the pump right next to the corn juice and diesel. I run it through my Mustang when I store it for the salt season. I run it in everything except my cars and truck. It's made a noticeable improvement in my dirt bikes and other small engines. Here's a site to find it close to you;
https://www.pure-gas.org

[Froogal]

I guess I am old enough I never saw on the internet that you could not eat yellow or field corn till now.

Never said you couldn't eat it, after all, it is eaten regularly by cattle, hogs,chickens, turkeys, etc., etc.

[megasupermagnum]

As far as I know, all fuel except off-road diesel is taxed. I'm 99% positive that all gasoline is taxed the same despite the grade. The only ones that I'm not sure of would be the 100 low lead (Av Gas), or maybe 110 octane racing fuel if you have it. I've only ever seen straight unleaded gas referred to as "non-oxygenated" in Minnesota, although I wouldn't discount that it is called that elsewhere. I've not seen it called that in any surrounding state. Most states just call it unleaded gasoline.

I stopped at the gas pump last night. $3.09 for 10% ethanol 87 octane. $3.39 for straight unleaded 87 octane gasoline.

[imashooter2]

The racing fuel isn’t taxed. Same for Aviation gas.

[Handloader109]

Ever hear of distillers grain? That is what is left after the ethanol is extracted. Distiller's grain can be and IS a viable livestock feed. Beef, pork, poultry, etc. The livestock will do as well on distillers grain as it will on regular corn, so NO, we have not lost any of our food. Also, the corn used for ethanol production is not the same type of corn that humans consume, so again, producing ethanol DID NOT take ANY of our food away from us.There is only so much land. While growing corn strictly for ethanol may not directly result in less food for human consumption, it lowers what is grown for animals. Farmers are highly subsidized for ethanol grain production. You lose mileage roughly equivalent to the difference in cost. And ethanol DESTROYS most small engines. It eats most plastics that even pure gasoline won't harm.

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[rockrat]

$3.55 for ethanol gas (85 octane) and $3.92 for 88 octane straight gas

[Hogtamer]

$3.79 for 90 octane no ethanol here this morning, filled up my old Land Cruiser.

[Plate plinker]

That doesn't surprise me since it takes a gallon of fossil fuel to produce a gallon of ethanol. It's a subsidy that comes out of our pocket in taxes that keeps the ethanol boat afloat. It never was cost effective, it was always a complete scam. Pure politics aimed at the corn belt. It also removed food from the plate. A win-win for the evil folks driving this stuff. At least that's my understanding of it.

Yep the pencil say it makes zero sense to do this. Waste of fuel and water.

[megasupermagnum]

Yep the pencil say it makes zero sense to do this. Waste of fuel and water.

Well it's a cheap, last minute solution by government to prop up crop farming, which was becoming a failing business. What else did you expect?

[Jedman]

They call it Rec Gas here and it costs about .70 a gallon more than regular unleaded. I burn it in my old outboards and my homemade street rod with a air cooled VW engine.

Jedman

[swingingblock2520]

Ethanol is about as healthy for a gasser as modern low/ultra low sulfur diesel is for your pumps and injectors. I fill my wife’s car up at the farm,we still get southern states super green straight premium gas delivered.

[jonp]

As far as I know, all fuel except off-road diesel is taxed.

There is a reason for the dye. If DOT looks into your tank, and they do sometimes especially in NJ, and see's color your in for a big ticket.

[swingingblock2520]

Concerning race fuels,when I used to buy high sulfured high cetane diesel for my truck and pulling tractor or leaded 115 race fuel for the nova every time I bought race fuel,be it gas or diesel there was a tax on it here in Maryland as well as across the river in WVA. At least from the VP distributors I deal with. Modern off-road diesel/#2 heating oil is nothing more than dyed ultra low sulfur fuel.

[Pressman]

As far as I know, all fuel except off-road diesel is taxed.

There is a reason for the dye. If DOT looks into your tank, and they do sometimes especially in NJ, and see's color your in for a big ticket.

In Iowa the DOT can enter a trucking/construction companies' lot and inspect the vehicle fuel tanks at will, now probable cause required.

[megasupermagnum]

How do they check pickup trucks? Tractors and other big rigs are obvious, the fuel is right under the cap.

[Winger Ed.]

How do they check pickup trucks? Tractors and other big rigs are obvious, the fuel is right under the cap.

The State Troopers here carry a clear plastic hose.
Ya stick it down in a fuel tank, put your thumb over the end, and pull it part way back out.
It the fuel in the hose is the least little bit of a red tint----- you get a big fat ticket.

Here, when a state LEO- Trooper or Game Warden writes a ticket, it goes to the local Justice of the Peace court.
There is no 'speed trap' sort of incentive for them to write tickets here. Whatever fine is levied, stays in that county.

So, there is no fixed rate for the fine.
I heard from a friend of a friend, one fella around here was fined $750.
for running his pick up with off road/red Diesel that didn't have 'road tax' on it.
He'd been filling his truck with the red Diesel he bought for construction equipment.

[swingingblock2520]

It’s a DOT issue not local in Maryland,they can dip commercial tanks. I’d love to see my tank get dipped because it’s red as a baboons ass but it’s not off road diesel,it’s the 3 gal of ATF that goes in to every 40 gallons. Now that’s not to say I’ve never ran off-road in my truck because I have lol

[Winger Ed.]

,it’s the 3 gal of ATF that goes in to every 40 gallons.

Oh,,,,,,,,,, you'd sure get a ticket here.
And you'd have to bring the judge some sort of chemical/lab analysis to beat it..... and that's no guarantee.

All the Troopers I've run into are fair,,,, but have no sense of humor, or listen to the least little bit of BS.
If ya bowed up on one, they'd probably tow the truck, and leave you standing on the side of the road.

[swingingblock2520]

I’d fight it and win but I’d never get dipped here in the Mid-Atlantic. Wouldn’t have to add any oils to my fuel if they didn’t take all of the lubricity out of fuel.

[fastdadio]

I’d fight it and win but I’d never get dipped here in the Mid-Atlantic. Wouldn’t have to add any oils to my fuel if they didn’t take all of the lubricity out of fuel.

I add TC-w3 two stroke oil to the gas in all my engines. 1/4 oz per gallon ratio. Gives it a bit of blue tint. It does a bunch of other stuff also, but I'm done with my thread jack...

[jonp]

I add TC-w3 two stroke oil to the gas in all my engines. 1/4 oz per gallon ratio. Gives it a bit of blue tint. It does a bunch of other stuff also, but I'm done with my thread jack...

I think blue or grey is ok, it's the red they are looking for but others can correct me on this. I still remember when Red Diesel was a sign of good fuel

[oldscool]

289915289916

[rockrat]

I also think that the ethanol was started because of politics and trying to buy votes

[Plate plinker]

Well it's a cheap, last minute solution by government to prop up crop farming, which was becoming a failing business. What else did you expect?

I expect what happened to happen, what should happen is the BIG GOVERNMENT get out of business and that includes farming.

[Plate plinker]

I also think that the ethanol was started because of politics and trying to buy votes

Absolutely! Everything is about money and power. Look at all those stupid windmills.

[jonp]

289915289916

That makes no sense. I'm thinking computer error or something.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

That makes no sense. I'm thinking computer error or something.
Kansas ethanol is generously subsidized.
That 93 octane is E30.

https://www.kansas.com/news/business/biz-columns-blogs/carrie-rengers/article156195449.html

[Winger Ed.]

289915289916

Well, they do ask how they can save you money......

That might have been another customer's suggestion.:bigsmyl2:

[popper]

Used to use leaded gas, then the mtbe(or whatever) that was added until it became public that the mtbe contaminated ground water. they decided ethanol was more eco friendly. Yes ethanol is more expensive to make. And the gas storage places add it to the truck on the way OUT of the terminal.

[GasGuzzler]

I burn 91/93 in both my GMC's due to tuning and I don't care if it has ethanol or not as long as it's less than 10%. I also don't pay much attention to the price...I can't. Most times I buy from the local supplier across from work as they are local, 100% gas, and usually cheaper for 91 than most other stations in the County. The down side is no pay at the pump and 7-5 Monday through Friday like a real business should be. Have to plan ahead to get gas.

Bought some 91 octane 15% ethanol from the Gulf station and it caused pinging and timing retard. All the other stations are owned by foreigners or conglomerates hence the planning ahead for "family" gas.

[Gator 45/70]

Fuel taxes by state, Keep in mind it is not showing Fedzilla's added tax.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/gas-taxes-by-state

[jonp]

Here is the pump price

290067

I did the gas/water test. First is to get a water bottle and make 2 marks then fill with water to the bottom

290070

Added non ethanol gas to the top and shook it up. Ethanol binds with water so if there is ethanol in the gas it will go to the water and the gasoline will float to the top

290068

After sitting the marks stayed the same so it's non ethanol as the water level did not change.

290069

[megasupermagnum]

I stopped in Herman, MN today for gas. They had the usual 87 octane with 10% ethanol, and 91 octane non-oxygenated. I looked all over the pump, there is no sticker on it at all. Like I said, I've been buying gas in MN for a long time, and if you aren't supposed to use non-oxygenated gas in your car, nobody in my entire life ever said so, and the pumps don't give the slightest indication of it either. I've never seen one with a sticker like posted earlier, but even that is small print and vague. BTW, prices were $3.09 for the 87 octane, and $3.60 for the 91 octane.

https://i.ibb.co/XW2vtfQ/IMG-20211010-163056941.jpg

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I stopped in Herman, MN today for gas. They had the usual 87 octane with 10% ethanol, and 91 octane non-oxygenated. I looked all over the pump, there is no sticker on it at all. Like I said, I've been buying gas in MN for a long time, and if you aren't supposed to use non-oxygenated gas in your car, nobody in my entire life ever said so, and the pumps don't give the slightest indication of it either. I've never seen one with a sticker like posted earlier, but even that is small print and vague. BTW, prices were $3.09 for the 87 octane, and $3.60 for the 91 octane.

I don't doubt what you are saying, but I hope you don't doubt what I previously said.


Subd. 12.Exemption for collector vehicle and off-road use. (a) A person responsible for the product may offer for sale, sell, or dispense at a retail gasoline station for use in collector vehicles or vehicles eligible to be licensed as collector vehicles, off-road vehicles, motorcycles, boats, snowmobiles, or small engines, gasoline that is not oxygenated in accordance with subdivision 1 if the person meets the conditions in paragraphs (b) to (d). If the nonoxygenated gasoline is for use in a small engine, it must be dispensed into a can with a capacity of six or fewer gallons.
(b) The nonoxygenated gasoline must be unleaded premium grade as defined in section 239.751, subdivision 4.

(c) No more than one storage tank on the premises of the retail gasoline station may be used for storage of the nonoxygenated gasoline offered for sale, sold, or dispensed by the station.

(d) The pump stands must be posted with a permanent notice stating: "NONOXYGENATED GASOLINE. FOR USE IN COLLECTOR VEHICLES OR VEHICLES ELIGIBLE TO BE LICENSED AS COLLECTOR VEHICLES, OFF-ROAD VEHICLES, MOTORCYCLES, BOATS, SNOWMOBILES, OR SMALL ENGINES ONLY."

This notice must be posted at least two feet above the ground. A retail gasoline station that sells nonoxygenated premium gasoline as defined in section 239.791, subdivision 15, must register every two years with the director, or an entity appointed by the director, on forms approved by the director, the total amount of nonoxygenated premium gasoline sold annually.

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/239.791#:~:text=If%20the%20nonoxygenated%20gasolin e%20is,of%20six%20or%20fewer%20gallons.&text=FOR%20USE%20IN%20COLLECTOR%20VEHICLES,%2C%20O R%20SMALL%20ENGINES%20ONLY.%22

[10x]

gasoline without ethanol gives better gas mileage.
Alcohol does not have the BTU value that gasoline has and I have noticed that 10% ethanol results in a 15% reduction in mileage.
Keep track of the cost per mile traveled.

[RogerDat]

gasoline without ethanol gives better gas mileage.
Alcohol does not have the BTU value that gasoline has and I have noticed that 10% ethanol results in a 15% reduction in mileage.
Keep track of the cost per mile traveled.

Exactly true by my experience also. There is just less energy in ethanol than gasoline. E85 is reported to yield a highway mpg about the same as city mpg would be for the same vehicle on gasoline. So say your have 24 hwy / 16 city then you would be looking at 16 mpg highway running E85. Rough rule of thumb.

Ironic part is that IF one locates feed lots for livestock close to ethanol plants and ethanol plants close to grain production one can not lose any "food" value of the grain. Post ethanol production the corn is still good for livestock feed, even better than normal due to being partly broken down and easier to digest. At one time revenue agents would look for unusually plump livestock to spot moonshiners. Steady diet of left over grain mash leads to fat livestock.

The problem is it requires a close integration to co-locate the grain production, ethanol production, and livestock feed lots. Otherwise moving the leftover mash which is wet and heavy uses a lot of fuel. Or if dried for transport the drying uses lots of energy. However if close enough to each other one can efficiently produce ethanol for fuel and feed livestock from the same corn. Locate where corn is produced to avoid transportation costs of the raw materials..... works out to be more profitable.

There is also a bacteria discovered in the pacific during WW2 that is very efficient at turning anything organic into starches and sugars. It was "discovered" when American GI's found their tents and clothes were rotting in weeks instead of months they were expected to last. Canadian company produces it for making distressed jeans, you know the brand new jeans that look like they are almost worn out. That can use just about anything organic to create alcohol. Wheat stubble is one item. Cannabis waste might be another source. That stuff grows like a weed, without irrigation or fertilizer.

Don't expect ethanol subsidies to get dialed back as long as Iowa is the first state in the primaries. We will be having subsidies on ethanol when 85% of all vehicles are electric or run on fusion like the DeLorean in Back to the Future. No presidential candidate will support rolling back subsidies that help farm incomes in at least 3 or 4 states including the first one to nominate a candidate. Google gutless punks and don't be surprised if you get a list of a whole lot of politicians form both parties.

[megasupermagnum]

I don't doubt you at all JonB. What I'm trying to say is that MN has not made this obvious at all. If it were not for this thread, I could have lived my entire life without ever knowing it. The majority of gas stations do not have any notice posted anywhere on the pump, at least I've never seen one.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I think those "Pump postings", get more and more prevalent, the closer you get to the Twin Cities ;)

[Gator 45/70]

Reckon I'll be doing recreational stuff for awhile, 2.39.9 here

[jonp]

Unleaded jumped to $3.19. The ethanol free is still $2.99

[fastdadio]

Unleaded jumped to $3.19. The ethanol free is still $2.99

If that was the case around here, I'd be running it.

[jonp]

If that was the case around here, I'd be running it.

I just filled up my gas cans and 2 vehicles before it had a chance to rise too

[jonp]

Gas now $3.29 but the ethanol free is holding firm at $2.99

[perotter]

gasoline without ethanol gives better gas mileage.
Alcohol does not have the BTU value that gasoline has and I have noticed that 10% ethanol results in a 15% reduction in mileage.
Keep track of the cost per mile traveled.

The BTU value would only directly apply to an old timey steam engine and not the ic engine we use. If you took the time to study the matter(read some SAE reports) you'd find out that in ice's BTE is what matters and alcohol will have a better BTE than normal gasoline’s in ic engines.

[fastdadio]

The BTU value would only directly apply to an old timey steam engine and not the ic engine we use. If you took the time to study the matter(read some SAE reports) you'd find out that in ice's BTE is what matters and alcohol will have a better BTE than normal gasoline’s in ic engines.

What's a BTE?

[rking22]

If that is the case, why do I consistently see a 10% reduction in mpg when I use 10% alcohol gas vs pure gas in my vehicles?? Actual measurements, I’m an engineer, only interested in the real data.

[fastdadio]

If that is the case, why do I consistently see a 10% reduction in mpg when I use 10% alcohol gas vs pure gas in my vehicles?? Actual measurements, I’m an engineer, only interested in the real data.

Because he's wrong. Gasoline = 120,286 btu/gal. Ethanol = 76,100 btu/gal. Being an engineer, which one of these fuels will do the most work? Or, 3.412142 btu's per watt/hour for another way of looking at the energy value. Either way you look at it, there's no free lunch here.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Non ethanol is quite common here in MN. IT has always been more expensive. Use it in my motorcycle and small engines.

[10x]

Because he's wrong. Gasoline = 120,286 btu/gal. Ethanol = 76,100 btu/gal. Being an engineer, which one of these fuels will do the most work? Or, 3.412142 btu's per watt/hour for another way of looking at the energy value. Either way you look at it, there's no free lunch here.

Internal Combustion engines are really heat engines.
The more heat avaialbe in the fuel the more power they will produce per litre of fuel.

The guys here who used to run propane discoved that propane gave great economy because it was cheaper than gasoline, But when the cost per 100 km was calculated they were not saving as much as they believed. When propane prices rose, gasoline (per 100 km travelled) became less expensive.

[fastdadio]

Internal Combustion engines are really heat engines.
The more heat avaialbe in the fuel the more power they will produce per litre of fuel.

The guys here who used to run propane discoved that propane gave great economy because it was cheaper than gasoline, But when the cost per 100 km was calculated they were not saving as much as they believed. When propane prices rose, gasoline (per 100 km travelled) became less expensive.

Propane is 91,452 btu/gal. Better than ethanol. One has to absorb the cost of the conversion up front in the fuel savings though. Are propane vehicles sold in Canada? They can be special ordered as fleet vehicles down here at an added cost.

[jonp]

Propane is 91,452 btu/gal. Better than ethanol. One has to absorb the cost of the conversion up front in the fuel savings though. Are propane vehicles sold in Canada? They can be special ordered as fleet vehicles down here at an added cost.

I see quite a number of private short haul fleets using natural gas.