Finally the weather is nice enough

[Boerrancher]

I actually got to shoot those cartridges I loaded up on Thursday evening. It was 77 grains of 3F GOEX compressed 2 tenths of an inch, and a 340 gr paper patched boolit seated just touching the compressed powder, and just barely engaging the lands.

I sat down on the ground and fired 5 shots from 50 yards. I had to move the sight over but I was dead on elevation wise and I had to move it to the left about 4 inches. The 5 shot group I shot was about 2.5 in in dia. Not good but acceptable for a first attempt. The next five shots I fired from 100 yards still in the sitting position. The good news is that the group moved over like It should have and only got about an inch bigger.

I didn't clean between shots and after the 10 rounds I put through it It was a bit dirty, but I could still see the rifling real well, and unlike the IMR3031 I have been shooting there was no unburnt individual grains of powder in the bore. The bore just looked like it had been coated with a thin layer of used motor oil.

I cleaned my cases when I came in with a case brush and was amazed at how little ash came out of them. I think I am going to load them up again tonight, as they seem to be cleaner on the inside now that when I first stuffed them with the Holy Black.

I almost forgot to mention the shoulder pounding from that load. I could see which way the slots on the screw heads in the butt plate were turned, as they left their impression through my long sleeve shirt and t-****. That little light Cavalry carbine kicks the snot out of me. It is a lot worse than with 60 gr of IMR 3031 and that same boolit. If one of you old timers to this game could explain why the Holy Black kicks worse than the 3031, when the 3031 should be up around 1800 to 1900 fps and the Holy Black is down around 1100 fps. Energy is Energy and the laws of physics says that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Keeping that in mind the 3031 Load has more energy, energy=higher velocity, so it should kick harder. Right?

The wife will be happy though as the Holy Black is cheaper than smokeless, and since I cast my own boolits, and my lead is free I am only paying about $13 for a hundred rounds. I already had most of what I needed to load it, except the drop tube, so I don't need to buy any more equipment. I can Honestly tell her this time that I am saving money. [smilie=1:

One last thing before I shake the cramps out of my fingers. Each of you need to kick yourself for me on account of getting me hooked on BPCR, since I can't kick any of you via the internet. :mrgreen:
Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[SharpsShooter]

Sounds like a fair start. Did you blow tube between shots? Also don't count the first shot asd part of the group. Some rifles will shoot to a different POI for the second and remaining shots unless you wipe between shots. Recoils a bit eh?

Your 340gr pill pushed by 77gr of powder probably hit 1200+ fps and given a rifle weight of say 8lbs.......gives you a smidge over 20ft-lbs of recoil energy at 12 fps velocity.

The same boolit with 60gr of powder at 1800fps is right at 28ft-lbs of recoil energy and 15 fps velocity.....quite a bit more.

You might try backing off to 55-60gr and see if that group tightens up. Most of my 45-70s don't need 77gr to make them shoot. In fact, my 75 loves a charge of 55gr and a 530gr 457125. Last question...what lube are you using? Bullshop has a dandy BP lube that beats SPG hands down.

SS

[405]

I would say that 77 grs BP is plenty. I know that some of the long range guys shoot as much powder as possible to gain a little flatter trajectory. But I've noticed it comes at a price. I'm surprised you were able to get 77 in there even with the 340 grainer. The only other reason for a ton of powder would be to seat a bullet out farther for a longer throat??. I can comfortably load about 45 grains of FFG in the 45-70 without using too much wad to take up space with a basic 405 gr bullet. You might try backing down the charge a little.

Sometimes a BP loads will show more felt recoil. I think the initial ignition is fast and there is a lot of the charge that never burns completely thus becoming part of the projectile in the recoil equation. Some BP loads seem to just push then go low "rumble boom". However some with heavy charges and heavy bullets in light guns slam the crud out of you then go "rumble boom". :mrgreen:

[Boerrancher]

I am not sure I should tell you all what I am using for lube, as you will probably just laugh at me and tell me It cant work, but I will tell as I have been laughed at before and will probably be again.

The boolit is lubed in JPW, it is then paper patched, and then it is once again rolled around in JPW until the paper soaks up all it can. I then let PP boolit dry for a few days. It is kinda like shooting a sabot out an inline front stuffer.

I didn't wipe between shots, as I am looking for a hunting round and wanted to see how several consecutive shots would differ from each other as well as the first shot out of a clean bore. I will most likely with my 405 gr HB boolit lube it with that nasty Lyman Black Molly as that it what I seem to have in the Lube sizer right now. I may start with that 340 gr PP adding an over the powder wad and a grease cookie for some extra lube.

I also have that 340 gr beagled up to 460 dia that I am looking forward to shooting with Holy Black. I recovered one of them today that I had fired with 60gr of 3031. I was very pleased with the rifling engravings and it showed no signs of any major gas blow by. The base looked like it had been sand blasted but other than that and a slightly deformed nose where it hit the soft dirt, it looked like it could be loaded again.

I will fully admit that I am in a whole new world here with BPCR and I know about some of the stuff my great grandfathers used back around 1900, but other that just old timer talk, no real practical application. I have a feeling I am going to be wishing I had never sold that Remington No 1 target 45-70 that I had. I had it and money was getting tight, and I guy offered me what I thought was an un-godly amount of money and that is where two fools met. He was a fool for even offering, and I was a bigger fool for taking him up on it. Several months after I sold it I found out what it was really worth. The guy I sold it to didn't have a clue as to what it was worth and last I saw it, it was being used as a behind the seat of the truck gun. What a waste.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch.

Joe

[montana_charlie]

3F burns faster and makes more recoil than the larger granulations...
CM

[405]

Yikes! Rem RB used as a bounce around truck gun... shiver me timbers.
Those things with good bores tend to be scarce. I think trapdoors with good bores are easier to find. I feel the pain... have done similar things in the past... my pre-wisdom years :roll:

As far as 45-70 BP hunting loads go. I think accuracy is everything. I don't think that most game could tell the difference between a 45 cal hole made by a bullet going 1100 fps or a 45 cal hole made by a bullet going 1250 fps. Just load her up to most accurate combo. Excess recoil can spoil good shooting too.

[NickSS]

Sounds like you had some fun blasting with black powder. I have only been shooting the stuff for 42 years so I know how addictive it can be. I take it that you are shooting a carbine. I have a couple of them of different types and they make fine hunting guns but I would not like to shoot them in competition much as their light weight will give you a banged up sholder. Ever a 12 pound Sharps shooting 535 gr slugs with 62 gr of FFG gives me a soar shoulder when shooting prone without a recoil pad. I don't notice it the first day but the next day it is tender for the second days evernts. I bought a recoil sheild that I were when target shooting this way I shoot a couple hundred rounds in several days without any pain. With your carbine try the old cavalry load of a 400 gr bullet (or your 350 gr one) with 55 to 60 gr of FFG. This will give you plenty of poop for hunting and not wear out your shoulder.

[Catshooter]

I think the initial ignition is fast and there is a lot of the charge that never burns completely thus becoming part of the projectile in the recoil equation. :mrgreen:

The powder mass does not change, fully or partially burned makes no difference. It all becomes part of the recoil equation. Chemical reaction (burning) can't destroy mass. I'm sure you remember that from high school chemistry class. You were paying attention, right? Or were you looking at that 16 year old blonde who looked 23?:p


Cat

[Boerrancher]

My original design 405 gr HB 45-70 mould should arrive today via UPS. That is the one I am wanting to load up. I will cut my charge back to about 70gr so that I can have room to seat the boolit.

I do have a question though, what does compressing the load do other than giving you more room in the case? Does it make it burn faster? Slower? more accurate?

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[Boz330]

Joe, I think you would probably be better served with a BP lube cookie. For all practical purposes you had nothing to soften the fouling and 77gr will produce fouling. As pointed out you could probably get that load down around 55gr with a lube cookie and 2 card wads on either side of it. Just fill the extra space up with something, even cream of wheat. If you are looking for a hunting load you might try a duplex load as that will eliminate a lot of the fouling and give a little extra velocity as well.
Why BP kicks more, I don't know. When I got my Hiwall I used unique and could shoot it all day long with no problem. With a case full of BP it produced slightly less velocity and shot to the same POA but wore on me pretty quick. Go figure! Now I wouldn't think of putting smokeless in a BPCR, I just find a way to tame it.
Compression usually makes the load burn cleaner but think of the BP slug more as a solid fuel rocket propellant than a powder. You want it to burn from the back forward propelling the boolit down the bore. Some powders, Goex being one, like a lot of compression. The amount is determined by your rifle. Swiss is supposed to not like compression but I am getting my best results from .225 in my 40-65 and even more than that in my 38-55. Just see what your gun tells you. You would think that just having one powder to use this stuff would be simple, but it ain't, it is fun though.

Bob

[Boerrancher]

Cat,

I was the one looking at the 16 year old blond that looked 23, and dating the 22 year old blond that looked 18.

That is why I have to ask all of these questions now was because I was too busy in High School to ask or pay attention for that matter.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[405]

The powder mass does not change, fully or partially burned makes no difference. It all becomes part of the recoil equation. Chemical reaction (burning) can't destroy mass. I'm sure you remember that from high school chemistry class. You were paying attention, right? Or were you looking at that 16 year old blonde who looked 23?:p


Cat

I'm sure the total mass (weight) of charge is included in most recoil calculators. I think the basic thermodynamics, closed system model is what your referencing in the "chemistry class" remark. What those standardized calculators don't explain or utilize is the concept that the "solids" in the charge component do have inertia and kinetic energy where there is a differential between a normal smokeless load and a BP load. Please enlighten me on the given that BP ignition impulse tends to obturate a bullet sitting at rest and a pressure comparable smokeless load does not result in similar bullet obturation??? There's another part of the recoil picture, the shape of the pressure curve, that the standardized calculators likewise don't deal with at all. I also don't know what a high school physics or chemistry class has to do with this. Be careful of assumptions about backgrounds of anonymous folks on the net.