Bad Morning At The Range!

[centershot]

(Sigh) Yeah, bad morning! I've been working up a hunting load for my '06, started with 16.0 gr. of 2400 and a 185 gr. boolit. I finally got the boolit siuze and hardness figured out so that I was getting 1-1/2" groups at 50 yards. I swaged a flat nose onto the boolit and loaded ten rounds to see if the swaging had a negative effect on accuracy, same 16 gr. powder charge. Firing the first shot, the rifle slammed into my shoulder in a way that I'd not experienced before, even with factory loads. The bolt was locked shut, but with two friends holding the rifle, I manged to lift the bolt handle by hand. It was now frozen in the forward position, unlocked, and resisting any attempt to move rearward. Ugh!

I'm going to squirt penetrating oil into the breech area and then stand it up and squirt more down the bore. I'll try to tap it open in a couple of days. Assuming I can get it open and remove the fired casing, what next? What can be done to verify if it is safe to use again?

[Thumbcocker]

Try a deadblow hammer. Have a gunsmith check the bolt lugs and headspace

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[gwpercle]

Since you are going to need to get a gunsmith to check the headspace and look over other parts ... bring him the complete rifle unopened and let him do it ... doing something for the first time ...and doing it heavy handed with a hammer just invites going from bad to worse .
Good Luch ... Hope everything's Okay !

Gary

[Winger Ed.]

Sort of sounds like a detonation of the powder rather than a rear to the front burn.

If you hammer on the bolt, a whole bunch of light taps is better for it- or rather less harmful, than a few heavy blows.

Since the bolt is unlocked, it might do well to drop a brass rod down the bore-- with tape around it where it contacts the crown,
and tap on the rod as it rests against the rear of the stuck case.

Going forward, ya might want to re-evaluate the powder & charge and your case length.

I shoot a lot of cast 190s in .30-06 with 13.0 gr of Red Dot, and match/tight chamber in a heavy contour Shilean barrel.
I've had that happen to a lesser degree 3 times out of a couple hundred rounds.
Coming out, each case had a real bright ring at the base of the case.
I figured the cases were old, and might have been at the verge of separation,
and the range temp. was about 100 degrees- which could have caused a hotter burn rate.

[Dale53]

Centershot;
It sounds like a double charge to me! I hope you haven’t damaged your rifle!

Dale53

[centershot]

Talking it over with my friends we concluded that it was probably due to powder bridging in the drop tube of the measure. Really, that's the only way it could have happened. I pick up each case, drop powder, and place it in a second loading block, no way to double charge the case unless the measure hangs up. I've never had this happen before so, yeah, I'm REALLY surprised! Looks like I'm off to the 'smithy to have it checked out!

[dverna]

If the powder bridged, you will have an undercharged load in the batch....pull the rest and weigh the powder.

I suspect it was a double charge, even though using a second loading block should make the process safer....easy to have an oops.

At least no one got hurt!

BTW, making a dipper might be worth considering.

[popper]

16.0 gr. of 2500 ? Could that be 2400? At 30% fill, a double charge is easy to catch IF you look. Few times I've has bridging, lots of powder dumps on the bench.

[uscra112]

Double charge, without a doubt. Case is wedged in the chamber which is why you can't pull the bolt back.

Do not use a brass rod. It can buckle and jam in the bore. Steel piano wire makes the best rods. Polish it to a shine and it will not hurt your barrel.

Smokeless powder CANNOT detonate. The chemistry is all wrong. Wish that old wives' tale would die, but it it's like Herpes, you can suppress it but it never goes away.

edit: K&S makes piano wire 9/32 diameter which is optimum for .30 calibers.

https://www.amazon.com/Precision-Metals-512-Music-Length/dp/B001YGV0HQ/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=music+wire+9%2F32&qid=1632945569&sr=8-4

[centershot]

dverna - Yes, I thought of that, somewhere in the remaining nine rounds is a case with a light charge.

popper - Yes sir, I did mean 2400, not 2500.

[Larry Gibson]

dverna - Yes, I thought of that, somewhere in the remaining nine rounds is a case with a light charge.

popper - Yes sir, I did mean 2400, not 2500.

If you don't find a light charge it means you inadvertently threw a double charge. It can happen to the best of use even with all the precautions we take. I never put any case into a loading block unless it has powder in it ....for any reason. However, even so I still always use a small light to visually check all the powder charges after all are in the loading block. Good thing you were not injured. Hopefully the rifle wasn't too.

[high standard 40]

However, even so I still always use a small light to visually check all the powder charges after all are in the loading block.

I always do this same thing. ALWAYS.

[tazman]

When using light powder charges in rifle cases, I NEVER dump directly from a powder measure. Your experience is the reason why.
I dump into a tray and measure the powder weight on a scale, then dump into the case through a funnel. Then and only then, do I seat a boolit and put the case in a loading block before dropping another powder charge. When I charge a case, I immediately seat a boolit into it. My cases either are fully loaded or have no powder or boolit in them.
Every so often, the powder weight comes out wrong due to bridging or a mishandling of the measure. My system catches it every time.

Long ago, around 40 years ago, I was loading a flake powder for a light charge in a 30-06. I can't remember the load now. In any case, when fired, it did exactly as you describe except that I was able to get the bolt and case out of the rifle. The brass had flowed into the ejector plunger hole and made getting the rifle open difficult as you can imagine.
I had been charging the brass directly from the powder measure.
When I got home, I pulled the remaining cases apart and checked the powder charges. I found one double charge and two empty cases in ten rounds. One of the empty cases corresponded to the double charge I had fired. The other problem cases never got fired.
I was lucky in that the rifle took the double charge with no issues. Since then I have never dumped a light powder charge into rifle case from the powder measure.
I still dump full power charges directly but you can see those at a glance.

[Grayone]

I always use a strong flashlite to check powder level in charged cases before seating the bullet.

[dverna]

I do the same as Tazman. NO CHARGED CASES IN A LOADING BLOCK. In fact I stopped using loading blocks. Primed rifle cases are in a box or bin. Pick one out, charge case, and immediately seat the bullet. Not only safer but less handling and faster.

[GregLaROCHE]

Since you are going to need to get a gunsmith to check the headspace and look over other parts ... bring him the complete rifle unopened and let him do it ... doing something for the first time ...and doing it heavy handed with a hammer just invites going from bad to worse .
Good Luch ... Hope everything's Okay !

Gary

If a little bit of very light tapping with a brass rod doesn’t do it, this is the way to go.

Do you think you could have double charged that round ?

[762 shooter]

I throw all my powder into brass in a loading block.

I check the first and last throw on my scale.

I visually check the powder levels with a flashlight.

I insert a marked dowel into every case.

The complete process for a fifty round tray takes all of 3 minutes.

Impossible to get double charge or no charge.

I still have most of my fingers.

762

[Mr_Sheesh]

I put uncharged cases in a loading block but they're mouth DOWN, solves the issue. Inspect Primers for proper seating then pull, charge, seat & crimp, done.

[Mal Paso]

I put uncharged cases in a loading block but they're mouth DOWN, solves the issue. Inspect Primers for proper seating then pull, charge, seat & crimp, done.

That's what I do. Hadn't thought I was inspecting primers but I was.

I have a bunch of plastic inserts for factory ammo boxes and the brass comes off the bench primer and goes into those neck down until charged. I used to find them at the range but there is a guy online that sells them in bulk cheap.

[brass410]

did the same thing years ago on my 243, jammed the bolt,being young and not knowing better,I procceded to tap(club) the bolt handle up and then back resulting in the bolt handle being broken off the bolt,(and darkness was upon my face). Found the nearest gun smith, (at the time 250 miles away) and sent for repair. Didnt see the rifle for almost 2yrs, now its one cartridge at a time start to finish havent had a problem since. Ck CK CK and Ck one more time, I'm not sure I'll ever get over it.

[centershot]

If you don't find a light charge it means you inadvertently threw a double charge. It can happen to the best of use even with all the precautions we take. I never put any case into a loading block unless it has powder in it ....for any reason. However, even so I still always use a small light to visually check all the powder charges after all are in the loading block. Good thing you were not injured. Hopefully the rifle wasn't too.

Thanks for that tip Larry, that will e part of the procedure going forward. Sure enough, one of the remaining nine had a light charge, 1.2 grains. That would put 31 grains of powder into the round I fired. According to the Lyman Cast Bullet Manual the max load with a 185 gr. bullet is 29.0 grains. I wouldn't think a 2.0 gr. overcharge would result in this, but every gun is a story unto it's own. Ugh! Be careful gents, I'm certainly grateful that this is no worse than it is! My wife reminded me that if the gun is permanently out of commission it only cost me $20.00 as I won it at a gun drawing at a local club...........Women truly do think differently, that Venus and Mars thing.........

[centershot]

Gunsmith called this afternoon, "Got the case out and OOOOEEEE, is that one FLATTENED primer!" he says! He went on to say that there was a "significant" extrusion of the case head into the extractor cut and that the firing pin won't de-cock. Hmpff! He said he'd call when he got the bolt apart, figures it it will need a new pin and maybe a new tailpiece, we'll see.

[Dale53]

Centershot;
I believe you can thank the good Lord for a STRONG rifle! Whatever the powder charge, when you extrude brass to that extent, you can be ASSURED that the pressures were out of sight!

Accidents can happen, but let this be a “wake-up call”! Just do a serious check of your procedures, and change what needs to minimize this sort of thing going forward.

Dale53

[dverna]

Thanks for that tip Larry, that will e part of the procedure going forward. Sure enough, one of the remaining nine had a light charge, 1.2 grains. That would put 31 grains of powder into the round I fired. According to the Lyman Cast Bullet Manual the max load with a 185 gr. bullet is 29.0 grains. I wouldn't think a 2.0 gr. overcharge would result in this, but every gun is a story unto it's own. Ugh! Be careful gents, I'm certainly grateful that this is no worse than it is! My wife reminded me that if the gun is permanently out of commission it only cost me $20.00 as I won it at a gun drawing at a local club...........Women truly do think differently, that Venus and Mars thing.........

I find it hard to believe a charge 2 gr over max would have done that much damage either, but I do not use that powder and do not know how "touchy" it may be.

Hopefully the repairs can be made and luckily you and others were unharmed.

Funny comment about your wife and how she thinks....

[44Blam]

I've seen pressure spikes with a 1 grain increment. Went from each grain adding about 15-20fps to the next charge up going 200 fps faster! That was with a 45-70 and h335 powder.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Chagrin-had a no charge revolver load recently. Had to tap the boolit back into the case

[Buck Shot]

I do the same as Tazman. NO CHARGED CASES IN A LOADING BLOCK. In fact I stopped using loading blocks. Primed rifle cases are in a box or bin. Pick one out, charge case, and immediately seat the bullet. Not only safer but less handling and faster.

Same here, except when I grab a primed case, before charging, I tap it (neck downward) on the bench before charging, to make sure nothing is in it first. Then charge from the powder measure, then immediately put it into the press and seat a bullet. I also watch the clear green tube on my RCBS thrower to make sure powder dumps through. If anything doesn't look consistent, I'll weigh that charge, and I also generally weigh every 10th charge.

[centershot]

Centershot;
I believe you can thank the good Lord for a STRONG rifle! Whatever the powder charge, when you extrude brass to that extent, you can be ASSURED that the pressures were out of sight!

Accidents can happen, but let this be a “wake-up call”! Just do a serious check of your procedures, and change what needs to minimize this sort of thing going forward.

Dale53

Yes sir, that's what the 'smith told me when he got the case out. He said that had the gun been built on one of the WWII era actions it's entirely possible that the bolt would have come back through the action and killed me! My guardian angel is truly working hard to keep me safe, no joke!

[whisler]

The Good Lord sure was looking out for you.

[Mk42gunner]

Yes sir, that's what the 'smith told me when he got the case out. He said that had the gun been built on one of the WWII era actions it's entirely possible that the bolt would have come back through the action and killed me! My guardian angel is truly working hard to keep me safe, no joke!
So what is the rifle that held? As opposed to a spontaneous disassembly of said rifle.

My experience with guardian angels is that they mainly like to work in the background; if you require them to actually confirm their presence, they may take a day or two off.

Be careful out there.

Robert

[centershot]

So what is the rifle that held? As opposed to a spontaneous disassembly of said rifle.

My experience with guardian angels is that they mainly like to work in the background; if you require them to actually confirm their presence, they may take a day or two off.

Be careful out there.

Robert

Robert,
The rifle in question is a Mossberg Patriot chambered in 30-06.

[Mk42gunner]

Thanks for answering my nosy question. I didn't even think of the newer Mossberg rifle.

Robert

[P Flados]

FYI,

Quickload is probably not super accurate for this application but I ran some numbers anyhow.

Even with a bullet seated 0.5" deep, a double charge (32 gr) would have a case that is 55% full and is predicted to produce 50,000 psi.

My guess is that pressure was well over 85,000 psi.

Quickload says 85,000 psi would required just over 38 gr and the case would be 74% full.

A full triple charge (48 grs) with a bullet seated only one diameter deep has a case that is 88% full and is predicted to have a pressure of 129,000 psi.

[BigAlofPa.]

I had some brass getting hung up. After some light loads in my 770 30.06. Here is the brass. Take note of the rings on it.
289604

[Mk42gunner]

Might be interesting to section one of those cases, to see just how big the groove is. I could see the ring without enlarging the photo.

Robert

[Mr_Sheesh]

I saw a friend had a case with a small wasp nest in it once (30-06), filling 2/3 the case interior or so. And I've seen pebbles stuck in cases etc. after cleaning.... I tend to keep my brass in sealed places since, and inspect the case interior before loading. Not SURE that a wasp nest would cause a kaboom but I'd rather not take the chance!

[P Flados]

B. A. P.

A bright ring is sometime caused by localized wall thinning due to case stretch. This is usually a headspace issue.

The ring looks lower than normal for a "stretch problem", but it could be a cause.

Cutting a case up just enough to inspect might be worth considering.

[15meter]

I put uncharged cases in a loading block but they're mouth DOWN, solves the issue. Inspect Primers for proper seating then pull, charge, seat & crimp, done.

I make my own loading blocks so the tall cases I load will stand upside down with no problem. Pick up case, give it a flick while still upside down, turn over, drop the powder. Depending on the powder, scale anywhere from each case to every tenth case. Crunchy powder, EVERY one is weighed, Winchester 296 every tenth round after weighing 5 in a row when I start.

Then the flashlight comes out and visual inspection of each case, even if I scaled each and every case.

I have even been known to lock the door to my shed so no one can interrupt me when I'm dropping powder. It annoys the wife, but I try not to blow my self up.

The tall blocks work especially well with most of the stuff I reload, did some 450 Nitro Express this evening. In a "normal" loading block, right side up or upside down they would have been flopping all over the place.

[Wayne Smith]

For me it was Unique that bridged in every powder measure I owned, except the B&M where it is not possible. This is after an excursion in my 32-20 where I had a mild overcharge - and found an underchanged case afterwords. I have a relatively large variety of powder measures and they all failed. I only use Unique in the B&M now.

[dale2242]

There are 2 possible solutions to this problem.
1. Buy an electronic dispenser if you can afford one.
2. The cheapest, weigh every load.

[Wayne Smith]

Or get a Belding and Mull (They are making them again) and use that - I got mine used before the current price craze. It just might be cheaper to buy new today.

[robertbank]

Double charge, without a doubt. Case is wedged in the chamber which is why you can't pull the bolt back.

Do not use a brass rod. It can buckle and jam in the bore. Steel piano wire makes the best rods. Polish it to a shine and it will not hurt your barrel.

Smokeless powder CANNOT detonate. The chemistry is all wrong. Wish that old wives' tale would die, but it it's like Herpes, you can suppress it but it never goes away.

edit: K&S makes piano wire 9/32 diameter which is optimum for .30 calibers.

https://www.amazon.com/Precision-Metals-512-Music-Length/dp/B001YGV0HQ/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=music+wire+9%2F32&qid=1632945569&sr=8-4


This and what Dale53 said. I would never have a double charge until I did.

As soon as you think there is no way you can have a double charge because your method is full proof is the first step to having a double charge. As Larry pointed out no method is full proof. NONE! We are human and as every woman on the planet will tell you we are also men.

Take Care

Bob

[JohnH]

Some are saying no charged cases in a loading block. I disagree. I inadvertently double charged a 25-06 with 2400. Without going into the why's and wherefore's, I continue to use a loading block, but I inspect all cases with a flashlight AND I took a tire gauge apart and use the stem as a powder check. The numbers on the stem give a nice reference for fill.

[bigdog454]

I can not say that I have ever had bridging of powder; BUT" I had a lady bug beatle get into my drop tube one time and caused a similar thing. It would let a proper charge fall and then randomly only a partial charge, The next charge would be over charge. Took me an hour to find out what the problem was. I took the PM apart and found the bug in the drop tube. Once debuged the powder measure was again accurate. Lesson learned, cost me a good Ruger Blackhawk.
BD

[centershot]

Got the rifle back this morning! The firing pin had been jammed back into the tailpiece but the 'smith got it freed up. He said the headspace was good, there was no evidence of damage to the bolt body or locking lugs. He test-fired it with three factory rounds and pronounced it good to go! He charged me $40.00, out the door. Whew! A solid lesson learned here, this could have been much, much worse in so many ways!

[RKJ]

Good that no major damage was done to your rifle. I double charged a 45 acp years ago and it blew off the slide stop (the outer part but not the pin) and destroyed the magazine in a GM. I had a smith check it out and he declared it okay, so fixed it up and cleaned it real good and still shoot it. I'm a lot more careful now though.

[dverna]

Got the rifle back this morning! The firing pin had been jammed back into the tailpiece but the 'smith got it freed up. He said the headspace was good, there was no evidence of damage to the bolt body or locking lugs. He test-fired it with three factory rounds and pronounced it good to go! He charged me $40.00, out the door. Whew! A solid lesson learned here, this could have been much, much worse in so many ways!

That is awesome!

[David2011]

I saw a friend had a case with a small wasp nest in it once (30-06), filling 2/3 the case interior or so. And I've seen pebbles stuck in cases etc. after cleaning.... I tend to keep my brass in sealed places since, and inspect the case interior before loading. Not SURE that a wasp nest would cause a kaboom but I'd rather not take the chance!

For me it was June bugs. After several low power shots (.40 S&W) but no boolits left in the barrel, I finally saw one of the beetles stuck in a case when I emptied the case feeder. I had the press set up in the shop where insects could come and go. June bugs were crawling into the cases in the case feeder. Best guess was that they were suppressing the primer explosion but some powder was still burning.



Got the rifle back this morning! The firing pin had been jammed back into the tailpiece but the 'smith got it freed up. He said the headspace was good, there was no evidence of damage to the bolt body or locking lugs. He test-fired it with three factory rounds and pronounced it good to go! He charged me $40.00, out the door. Whew! A solid lesson learned here, this could have been much, much worse in so many ways!

Congrats! You were very fortunate. Glad nothing worse happened.

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

I do the same as Tazman. NO CHARGED CASES IN A LOADING BLOCK. In fact I stopped using loading blocks. Primed rifle cases are in a box or bin. Pick one out, charge case, and immediately seat the bullet. Not only safer but less handling and faster.
I respectfully, and strongly, disagree. I want all my charged cases in the same loading block. It allows me to compare and be sure the charges are all the same. If you're looking at one at a time, you have no point of reference to know your charge is off.

[txbirdman]

I’ve been doing what dverna’s doing for 40+ years. See no reason to change now

[Wilderness]

I put uncharged cases in a loading block but they're mouth DOWN, solves the issue. Inspect Primers for proper seating then pull, charge, seat & crimp, done.

Ditto with uncharged cases in loading block mouth down. In fact no case gets a charge anywhere, with or without loading block, unless it is mouth down immediately before charging. I mostly charge a bunch of cases , THEN CHECK WITH A LIGHT, then seat bullets. All loads are thrown with a measure onto the balance and from there into the case - this as a double check that both the measure and the poise on the balance are correct. Bridging with Unique is a regular and frequent occurrence, though in the measure drum rather than the drop tube, so the only consequence is the occasional light charge.

If I have doubts about a loaded cartridge I weigh and compare loaded cartridges before I pull anything apart.

It also helps that my light charges are less than 50% of max, so a double charge would be non catastrophic.

New contributions to the discussion are using balance and measure to cross check each other, weighing loaded cartridges and, for reduced loads, using charges that are less than 50% of max.

Most of this comes from the experience of others.

[robertbank]

I put uncharged cases in a loading block but they're mouth DOWN, solves the issue. Inspect Primers for proper seating then pull, charge, seat & crimp, done.

I use a variation of this as well. I clean, deprime and resize my rifle cases placing them mouth uo. I then prime them all placing them in my reloading block mouth down. Powder is dispensed from an RCBS electronic powder dispenser from a preset charge. I fill each case one at a time and them immediately seat and crimp the bullet.

Pistol cases are loaded in bulk using a 550B Dillon. I am not concerned with double charging a 9MM case but watch carefully when I load 45acp and 45Colt when loading light loads.

Take Care

Bob

[Scrounge]

There are 2 possible solutions to this problem.
1. Buy an electronic dispenser if you can afford one.
2. The cheapest, weigh every load.

Being a cheap bastrich, my preference is to weigh every load. I'll never get the kind of production my brother does, but I should avoid overcharges, if I don't get stupid.

Bill

[robg]

if you use a loading tray its easy to check the level in all cases before you put boolits on them.by the way i use 18 grains of 2400 in my 308 and get good accuracy.

[W.R.Buchanan]

when doing my rifle rounds I have this neato Drop tube that RCBS makes that has a trickler in it. You drop the charge short directly into the pan on the scale and then trickle it to final size. Dump into case and then seat boolit. There is no way to screw this up. This is the fastest way to do Measured Charges I have found.

Having a press like a C&H 444 with multiple stations, or several Lee C Presses lined up in a row so you can charge the case, seat the boolit, and then crimp it in place in one handling is another way to insure there is no Screw up's.

With my C&H 444 and the RCBS PM with Drop Tube I can do 50 rounds of rifle ammo in 30+ minutes. This is starting with Processed and Primed Cases, as case prep always takes some time.

With 40+ years in a machine shop mostly running production I have found that making any quantity of the same part you need to have a Idiot Proof process,,, Which you repeat as many times as needed to make the order.

This same idea applies to loading ammunition even more so, as I have seldom blown myself up running a lathe. However the distinct possibility looms with loading ammunition. And adding the fact that few can concentrate 100% on anything for very long makes establishing a fool proof process for loading what you need to be looking at.

All that matters is that it is actually Fool Proof, and it works for you!

Randy

[KCSO]

To remove a stuck case... #1 do NOT hammer on the bolt with anything! Find a bore size brass rod long enought to reach from the breech to 2 inches or more out the muzzle. Soak the breech and stuck case in Kroil and wait 24 hours, then insert the brass rod and tap out the case. If it still won't move reoil wait and tap some more, eventually it will come out even if the chamber is slightly bulged.

[robertbank]

Randy I agree. The #1 Rule then becomes to treat your Idiot Proof method like it is not idiot proof and treat it as if it isn't. Best way I know of to ensure your digits remain where they are meant to be.

Take Care

Bob

[mjwcaster]

For me it was June bugs. After several low power shots (.40 S&W) but no boolits left in the barrel, I finally saw one of the beetles stuck in a case when I emptied the case feeder. I had the press set up in the shop where insects could come and go. June bugs were crawling into the cases in the case feeder. Best guess was that they were suppressing the primer explosion but some powder was still burning.




Congrats! You were very fortunate. Glad nothing worse happened.

Mine were spider nests mixed with wet walnut media in 45acp cases.
I thought I had cleaned them all out but missed a couple.
Squib loads but still exited barrel.
I wasn’t inspecting cleaned cases as well back then as I do now.
And although the nests were from brass sitting on the range I now keep all cleaned/inspected brass in sealed containers to prevent contamination.