Feeding problems - again!

[mvintx]

I thought I had this issue solved with my Delta Elite and MP 165 grain TC boolits. I loaded up several hundred and put them away. Today I decide to shoot it a bit and the rounds will not feed reliably. Boolits are seated about as deep as I can get them with just enough crimp to remove the flare. Very light load at 1042 fps, using a 18.5 lb recoil spring. Wilson full length guide rod and shokbuff has been in the gun since new and never had any reliability issues until I started loading this Boolit. A 20 lb spring will overcome the feed problem but my old hands find it very difficult to work the slide.

The round hangs up with the nose into the top of the chamber and the case jammed against the barrel feed ramp. I can see the dent on the case where it hangs up. The barrel is well broken it...over 5,000 rounds of jacketed but mostly the Lyman 401638 which has a rounded nose and feeds reliably. The MP has a sharp nose to it

What's a guy to do???

[LUCKYDAWG13]

I had a problem like that my feeding problem was from my magazine

[Winger Ed.]

I'd try a couple of different magazines first.

[35remington]

The key to getting along with a 1911 is relatively simple.

Don’t feed it bullets you want it to feed. Feed it bullets it runs with and stick to those.

You have described the classic three point jam. A rounded rather than sharp meplat edge is more forgiving and allows the round to pivot correctly as it transitions from angled to straight feed. Consider that 1911 “101.”

[44MAG#1]

Have you tried seating the bullets out as far as the Magazine or the chamber will allow? Either the magazine or the chamber will be the determining factor in OAL.
I try to not go over 1.260". Of course meplat diameter can affect the length on bullets with wide meplats, although less in a 10MM than a 45 Auto.
Plus I taper crimp fairly heavy.

[mvintx]

Have you tried seating the bullets out as far as the Magazine or the chamber will allow? Either the magazine or the chamber will be the determining factor in OAL.
I try to not go over 1.260". Of course meplat diameter can affect the length on bullets with wide meplats, although less in a 10MM than a 45 Auto.
Plus I taper crimp fairly heavy.

I've set the OAL at 1.265" right now. Any longer and the rounds hang up in the magazine. The MP 165 meplat is about the same as the Lyman 175 but it has the sharp nose. I suppose I could get it a bit shorter and give that a try. I was using Wilson mags...guess I'll try the Colts and see if it makes a difference (thanks Winger). I hate to give up on the MP bullet since I invested $$$ into the mold.

I was thinking of having the top edge of the barrel feed ramp lowered a bit to help but I don't know if that's the right thing to do.

[44MAG#1]

Have you tried taper crimping fairly heavy?

[mvintx]

I have not. It has been suggested here and if I understand this correctly, more crimp can aid in the PC being scraped from the bullet as it is fired. I was under the impression that I need only to crimp the case enough to move the case walls snugly against the bullet. The loaded round measures about .424" (.402 dia plus .022 for the case walls) at the case mouth. I don't know if additional crimp can help but it's certainly worth a try. The case is dented about 3/16" below the case mouth where it hangs up on the chamber so the round is making it past where the amount of crimp would make a difference. Am I understanding that correctly?

[44MAG#1]

The only to find out is to try it. Load a couple with a heavy taper crimp and then pull the bullets, see if the PC comes off. If not load a few and try them by shooting. My taper crimp is heavy enough to easily see it with the naked eye not by the use of a caliper.
Only through experimenting by trying a myriad of combinations will you really find out. I load a 200 grain with a fairly decent meplat and haven't had any problems.

[35remington]

Given the possibly high pressures of 10mm the most that should be done with the top of the barrel ramp is to break any sharp corner present. A very light radius with fine grit sandpaper is all that should be performed and only if a sharp angle is present.

No power tools or Dremels…..the scourge of 1911 reliability and potentially safety as well.

Crimping harder isn’t going to help a three point jam, but do give changing OAL a try. The good thing is you have a design that works if reasonable methods with this one fail.

[mvintx]

Given the possibly high pressures of 10mm the most that should be done with the top of the barrel ramp is to break any sharp corner present. A very light radius with fine grit sandpaper is all that should be performed and only if a sharp angle is present.

No power tools or Dremels…..the scourge of 1911 reliability and potentially safety as well.

Crimping harder isn’t going to help a three point jam, but do give changing OAL a try. The good thing is you have a design that works if reasonable methods with this one fail.

Thanks. I was wondering how more crimp would solve the problem, unless the case mouth is dragging past the feed ramp and causing the problem. Guess I'll try a little shorter too but there isn't much bullet shoulder exposed to work with. Dang. And it's such a great-looking boolit too. Sorta makes you wonder why Miha puts such a sharp nose on a bullet. No way to modify the mold without making the bullet longer. I'll try adding some more crimp too...nothin' to lose.

[44MAG#1]

I know the "experts" will chime in but what would it hurt to crimp harder and try it.
Again what would it hurt to try simple first before going into the hair pulling routine?
While I am waaay below most on here I have learned one thing from Professor Experience in the University of Hard Knocks after completing my lower education
do the simple things first to try to remedy a problem.

[tja6435]

I know the "experts" will chime in but what would it hurt to crimp harder and try it.
Again what would it hurt to try simple first before going into the hair pulling routine?
While I am waaay below most on here I have learned one thing from Professor Experience in the University of Hard Knocks after completing my lower education
do the simple things first to try to remedy a problem.

I have a G19 that won’t feed unless I put the extra heavy crimp on the cartridge, my .45 1911 also needs a good taper crimp, not as much as the G19 but more than just flattening the mouth of the case.

I vote to try a heavier crimp

[mvintx]

Yep, I'll try adding crimp. Like you say, it's the easiest thing to try along with a different magazine. My .45 1911 has a similar problem and I'll crimp those some more too. Got nothin' to lose.

[Larry Gibson]

mvintx

Does the Delta have and integral feed ramp with the barrel?

[mvintx]

mvintx

Does the Delta have and integral feed ramp with the barrel?

I should take a pic but the way I see it, the barrel has a small feed ramp and the frame has kind-of a ramp too. I'll get a pic and post it.

[Divil]

I suspect the barrel is not integrally ramped, not something I have seen in regular production Colts. My Colt 9mm 1911’s are not integrally ramped. Another vote for heavier crimp.

[dla]

The heavier taper crimp will round over the edge a bit, which might be enough "slickness".

[wv109323]

Get rid of the shockbuff. They do not allow the slide to travel all the way to the rear. Plus they can drag on the slide and change the slide speed. If you taper crimp after bullet seating , it will not damage the powder coat.
Is the cartridge rim below the breechface or partially up the breechface?
If below it is the magazine not pushing the cartridge up or the slide/recoil spring not allowing the slide to travel to the rear far enough.
If on the breechface, it could be the rim not sliding under the extractor. Or it could be cartridge length.
Will the slide lock back if one round is put in the magazine loaded and then fired?

[mvintx]

Here's a pic. I wouldn't call it a feed ramp...just a radius at the bottom of the barrel.

https://i.imgur.com/9ZKQETt.jpg

[Divil]

That is a standard non ramped 1911 barrel.

[mvintx]

Get rid of the shockbuff. They do not allow the slide to travel all the way to the rear. Plus they can drag on the slide and change the slide speed. If you taper crimp after bullet seating , it will not damage the powder coat.
Is the cartridge rim below the breechface or partially up the breechface?
If below it is the magazine not pushing the cartridge up or the slide/recoil spring not allowing the slide to travel to the rear far enough.
If on the breechface, it could be the rim not sliding under the extractor. Or it could be cartridge length.
Will the slide lock back if one round is put in the magazine loaded and then fired?

I removed the shokbuff after cleaning. It was hard to get decent pics but here's what I came up with. I'll have to go shoot it to answer your question about the slide locking back. There is a definite difference in how the round sits in the magazine between the Wilson and Colt mags. Here's a Wilson mag;
https://i.imgur.com/XoTxVFX.jpg

This is the Colt mag. The round sits much higher and looks like it couldn't miss going into the chamber.
https://i.imgur.com/aOqgbBk.jpg

This is looking at the breech face (Colt mag)
https://i.imgur.com/vSreFP9.jpg

[Divil]

Which mag feeds better? I have my suspicions but will say nothing.

[mvintx]

You know, I've never shot the Colt mags much. I figured the Wilsons were just as good so I used them all the time. They fed everything I asked of them so there was no reason to use anything else. I didn't think about using them when I started having feeding problems...they've been in a crate with dozens of other mags that I've collected over the years. What a dummy, huh?

Sounds like I may have solved the problem. More crimp and use the Colt mags.

[Larry Gibson]

Yup, that's a standard Colt barrel. Should feed the shorter, stubbier round from the Colt mag would be my guess. The angle of the round to centerline of chamber is critical with the shorter stubbier bullets. That's why they give feed problems in most "integral ramped" guns.....too much of an angle entering the chamber.

[Divil]

Use the Colt mags exclusively on your next range trip. Also crimp the rounds more firmly. See how those two things play out in the reliability department. If you get 100% function then maybe try a few mags worth of the more firmly crimped rounds in the Wilson mags.

My own bias is that Colt factory magazines are sometimes unjustly maligned and Wilson sometimes unjustly praised.

[35remington]

The ramp on the bottom of the barrel is not a feed ramp but rather a clearance. The idea is the round misses the barrel ramp and at most only glancingly hits the top edge. It is ramped so the bullet cannot strike it low on the ramp and cause a jam, which is what low strikes on the barrel ramp will do.

The frame is the feed ramp; the barrel ramp is so shaped so the bullet nose cannot strike it low.

One of the things that is helpful is to observe whether the jams are the first few rounds out of a fully loaded magazine or not. The angularity of feed for a 1911 varies, with the first few rounds having the steepest feed angle and the following ones progressively less as the magazine empties.

This can be seen as a climbing set of marks on the frame ramp as the gun gets dirty. You will notice the impacts describe a vertical line. The last round out of the magazine generally hits near the very top of the frame ramp especially with longer OAL rounds.

Short rounds dive further and hit lower on the ramp which usually increases feed angularity, but too long rounds combined with a sharp edged meplat cause the bullet nose to wedge against the roof of the chamber rather than pivot off the top of the chamber and allow the rim to rise under the extractor.

It’s called a three point because the round is wedged between chamber top, the bottom of the barrel ramp and the bottom of the breechface if the rim lies above the cartridge pickup rail. Three points of contact. The smiley face mid length on the case is a diagnostic clue and is a hard three point jam.

A 1911 is supposed to pivot as described but the midpoint of the case should lightly brush against the top of the barrel ramp as it chambers. When contact is hard it wedges and stops.

1911’s love rounded meplats. They dislike sharp ones, especially if combined with an enabling incorrect length, which is a combination of misfortune sometimes. 1911’s are happiest with longish overall lengths and rounded meplat edges.

Got a group buy Lee sorta HG 68 clone from this forum with a sharp meplat. Loaded to the correct 1.250” in 45 ACP it will make otherwise reliable 1911s jam like Zeppelin.

Sometimes bullet designs are more of a cross to bear than needed. Again….let the gun decide.

I am a fan of Colt magazines in the ACP because they preserve JMB’s correct shape but presume in 10mm that they differ because JMB did not design 10mm magazines, but I dunno. In 45 ACP the correct magazines have tapered feed lips….not straight. Tapered means V shaped, not straight with a flare.