.44 Magnum COAL - in Carbines?

[Bigslug]

Contemplating tweaking one of a couple existing bullet designs with Accurate. Basically looking to end up with a 250-265 grain LFN in a tumble lube format. Primary launch platforms will be Redhawks, a SBH, and an N-frame.

Veral Smith's site says I can get away with a nose length of .45" in front of the case mouth on all of those. No problem - I'm probably looking at something like .41" and under.

My concern is that this stretches us beyond the "book" max COAL of 1.61" and creeps us up to near 1.7".

I am not opposed to the idea of acquiring a Marlin lever gun or one of the Ruger 77/44 bolt actions to shoot my revolver ammo out of, but don't know what length they let you get away with. The classic Keith clone I'm looking at the blueprint of would kick the COAL up to about 1.685", and I have trouble imagining ANY carbine manufacturer with a lick of sense cranking out a gun that wouldn't work with that.

So. . .how long can you go on the carbines before they choke?

[Outpost75]

My experience has been that in the Marlin 1894, original Winchester 1892, later Winchester 94, and Ruger M77/.44 that cartridge OAL in .44 Magnum cannot exceed 1.610" which is the ordinary max. for factory ammo, AND you can take that to the bank.

[ddixie884]

Me too. The marlin can be tweaked by a good smith..........

[Dale53]

Back in the day, when I was but a lad, I was a real fan of Elmer Keith (I still am, to keep the record straight). However, I was a bit "over the top" when it came to Elmer's bullet design. I am still a fan, for a variety of reasons, but at that time in my young life, if it wasn't an "Elmer" bullet, I wasn't interested. I was a .44 Magnum fan (and still am) and was NOT interested in any other cast bullet. Really closed mind, to be sure. I bought a Marlin lever action chambered in .44 Magnum (at that time my home state of Ohio did not permit hunting deer with a handgun, hence the purchase of the Marlin). My Marlin would not feed the .44 Magnum with the Keith bullet at ANY length. I checked around and learned that that SWC bullet design just didn't work with the Marlin. Instead of an intelligent decision, I decided that any .44 Magnum rifle that wouldn't feed the Keith bullet in .44 Magnum wasn't fit to own! Just a flat DUMB decision.

After some more experience, a few scant years later, I realized that a good "round flat" design of cast bullet will feed without issue in a Marlin and also does well in the field. In fact, when Frank Siefer (a Lee Distributor and good friend) and I designed the Lee C430-310-RF, we carefully put two crimp grooves in the bullet. The groove closest to the nose was to keep the overall length suitable for rifles such as the Marlin and Ruger .44 Magnum rifles. The one closest to the base allowed a maximum overall length to keep more of the bullet outside the case to keep the pressures down for revolvers. This particular bullet design turned out to be the most accurate bullet at 100 yards out of a revolver that I have ever shot.

This bullet was developed for Frank's Alaska bear hunting trip but as luck would have it, I happened to take the first head of big game that was taken with that bullet. I took a very large ten point buck in Ohio with a handgun. The wound track was impressive and that bullet is EXCELLENT in the field. However, I decided after using it for a bit, that the recoil was really a bit too heavy for the early Smith Model 29's. It was NOT the pressure that was a particular concern, but the recoil was too hard on the those fine revolvers. So, later on, I used mine only in my Rugers (Super Blackhawk and Ruger Red Hawk).

So, the bottom line is don't waste your time trying to get a Marlin to feed the Keith bullet. You may be able to make it work, but any popular RF will probably be handled quite well. It will also do well on game.

FWIW
Dale53

[JohnH]

After some more experience, a few scant years later, I realized that a good "round flat" design of cast bullet will feed without issue in a Marlin and also does well in the field. In fact, when Frank Siefer (a Lee Distributor and good friend) and I designed the Lee C430-310-RF, we carefully put two crimp grooves in the bullet FWIW Dale53

That is very interesting. Back in the early 2000's I took a Lee 430-310-RF and milled the gas check shank off and ended up with a bullet that weighs ~250 grains and have used it successfully in both 44 Magnum single shot rifles and with sabot's in 50 cal muzzle loaders. My compliments to your design, it is a great bullet.

As to the 1.710 length of the Keith design feeding through a lever rifle, I run the NOE copy, which I consider to be a faithful copy at 1.710 and it feeds well through my Rossi '92

[Bigslug]

Currently guesstimating a .38" long LFN-type nose outside the case with a .30" meplat. Probably a COAL around 1.66", so nothing over the top. Might work, might not.

As with so many other little projects, the answer on the fateful day a carbine comes home may be "order another mold":roll:

[smkummer]

My mid-70’s Marlin 1894 does the Marlin jam unless my OAL is close to 1.61 or over. And also so with a friends similar Marlin. I am crimping Lee’s 200 RF on the second groove for a 1.635 OAL ( fast shooting cowboy action) and Ranch Dogs 265 gr. at also the second groove ( micro groove on both) at 1.65 OAL. I can’t use the recommended crimp groove on either bullet or it will Marlin jam. Most likely my gun needs tweaking but just saying that my gun at least feeds a 1.65 OAL bullet.

[rintinglen]

My Marlin CB likes 1.55-1.61 inches, where it purrs. Shorter rounds, especially SWC's tend to hang up while feeding and longer rounds won't clear the magazine.