Cast Boolit Effects on Game

[ChristopherO]

This topic is subjective, depending on alloy, profile, velocity, etc..., yet, it is important for those who may not be initiated in hunting with lead arena, or have little experience. I read all the time that a (place caliber of boolit here) doesn't need to expand because it is already xx/xx of an inch already. Or that all the buffalo were kilt with such and such, and once you stroke the trigger the quarry doesn't stand a chance because the lightning of Thor will smote it in it's tracks, DRT. To accept this line of thinking will cause the novice lead boolit hunter to question their choice of projectile right quick once the trigger is pulled. Let me share an example:

This past Saturday I was beating myself up with the 45/70, getting ready for the upcoming deer season. To end the session I finished sighting in a light load in the 35 Whelen using 7 grains of Bullseye and a hard cast 190 grain FN PC bullet at 100 yards. Such fun seeing the holes open the paper within an inch and a half. These are flying between 1,000 and 1,100 FPS. Not fast and no expansion, but with a good meplat to cut a path through paper, or possibly tissue.

Then my friend texted to remind me that her barn floor is being destroyed by a family of groundhogs and she needs help. With the Whelen shooting so good I drove straight over. At 30 yards the cross hairs were centered half way up the torso on a prone hog and I let rip. My, that whistle pig jumped nearly 2' up and took off into the raggity barn ten steps away as if not touched. No spoor was found nor was the varmint in the interior of the barn. I surmised it made it down the hole or passed under a piece of equipment. The next day I popped an other with the 17HMR at the same range, dropping dead where it rolled off the rocks. A fast, small bullet has different characteristics.

Today I drove by and noticed two buzzards at the barn, which wasn't where I disposed of the HMR kill. Walking up to the barn was the first groundhog's carcass, having been pulled out of the barn by some unknown animal and being picked at by the birds. The 35 caliber boolit passed crosswise through the torso, killing it but allowing a run away from the scene of the crime before succumbing to its wounds.

This reminds me of over three decades ago when I first started shooting and hunting with 50 caliber muzzleloaders, black powder and pure lead conical slugs at 1,180 fps. I would sneak up on groundhogs, drill them through the chest only to have them run to their holes with a half inch hole where it shouldn't be for long life. How can such a small creature, though dead on its feet run off when the lungs and heart have been demolished? I began to equate heavy, wide nose lead slugs with broadheads, they cause a big wound, if placed correctly does kill the creature quickly but probably not at the spot of impact. Bang/Flops were and are not to be counted on, in my considerable experience with this type of projectile. Sure they can happen, but don't be surprised when they don't, accept it as it comes.

If a groundhog can absorb a piece of lead 1/3rd, or even 1/2 of an inch and run off, think of what deer size game will do. Yes, that's exactly what they normally do. Yet, don't let that deter your hope of making meat. Placed in the right spot that animal is down at the end of a fast sprint, awaiting to be field dressed and hauled off to be butchered. The faster the lead boolit is launched with a good flat nose or expandable soft lead at the front the better, IMHO. But get used to blood trailing with dogged determination. That can be a sport in and of its self. I share this to hopefully give those new to this type of hunting a better understanding, not to give up once the shot is made and the animal's reaction doesn't give the slightest hint that you are successful in executing a perfect shot. Stay at the track and be rewarded with the prize at the end of the trail. Happy Hunting this Fall.

ChristopherO

[Beaver Scout]

Sectional density and the animal make a huge difference. I've always said "speed kills" and the hydrostatic shock that some bullets make when traveling at super sonic speeds (sometimes 3x or more the speed of sound) makes for either very fast kills or splash damage, depending on the bullet. A bullet that can expand inside the animal and give up all it's energy with out flying to pieces is the perfect killing bullet, at least in my opinion.

[BJK]

Nicely stated Chris.

High velocity bullets that explode, and slow and heavy bullets with flat meplats that just plow through both work, they just work differently. Shot placement is critical with both but more so with the latter. Yes, you might need to be able to track the shot animal. Maybe it's not for where hunters are packed tightly together. There I would think you'd want the target to drop immediately or close to it.

I've never had to use it (now I can't), but a red lensed flashlight is said to work great on a blood trail.

[405grain]

I vividly remember decades ago scaling down the canyon to fish on the Ell river. About half way down to the water I spied a ground squirrel clinging to a vertical rock face like a spider only 15 yards away. I drew a bead on it with a Colt New Service in 45 LC. I hit the squirrel dead center and made a hole big enough to put your thumb through. The 250 grain boolit fragmenting on the rock blew the squirrel off the face and it fell about 35 yards to the rock and gravel edge of the riverbed below. That squirrel hit the ground running and zipped into some brush. Without even slowing down the squirrel came out of the brush on the other side, ran another 40 yards, then darted down a squirrel hole. I've had other ground squirrels that I've shot with a 245 grain boolit from a 44 mag. (about 900 fps) drop dead on the spot. Other cast bullet shots have run the gambit between these two extremes.

Two years ago I was shooting ground squirrels on an alfalfa farm North of Mt Shasta. I'd reloaded a couple of hundred Nosler lead free 40 grain 22 bullets for my 223. I was up and set up before sunrise, and it was below freezing on a clear crisp day. This was the first time that I'd tried sintered copper bullets, and had seen all the hype on how they had "explosive expansion", but was going to check it out for myself. I got my first shot at a squirrel at about 80 yards, and at the shot it disappeared. It is very common to get a near miss on a squirrel and have then jump down their hole so fast that they're gone before you can pick up the sight picture in the scope. I just figured that I'd missed. The same thing happened on the next 4 squirrels. I was beginning to wonder what's going on here. I gave the rifle a quick check and all the scope mounting hardware was good and tight. How could I have missed? It was then that I noticed the steam coming up in the cold morning air from the spots where the squirrels had been standing. These weren't misses. The bullets weren't just popping the squirrels apart, they were vaporizing them! I got shots out to 250 yards that day, and when those bullets connected on a squirrel it was like they stepped on a land mine.

So, the moral is you can use anything that's accurate for varminting. The critters will be just as dead. The choices in projectiles that you make will determine the terminal effects. Shooting a light weight hollow point cast 30 caliber boolit won't be as effective as a 200 grain 30 caliber torpedo if the 200 grain is more accurate. On the whole I think that varminting with cast plinking loads in a centerfire rifle would be good practice for big game hunting. Even if your a dyed in the wool varminter, there's no reason not to take a cast boolit gun along on something like a prairie dog shoot.

[dverna]

Cannot relate any cast experience. Jacketed hunting bullets are all I use to hunt with. Why compromise on accuracy, trajectory and energy to save a few dollars a year....if that? But I hunt with modern calibers that benefit from the attributes of jacketed bullets.

But critters are unpredictable. I have had deer in the same point of impact DRT and also run 50 yards...go figure.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

https://i.imgur.com/cArT9w1.jpg

Over the years I have recovered a lot of cast boolits from game, mostly 45/70 from wild hogs and the small one in the foreground an 80gn (25/20) from a fox. All were taken under 100 yards and all under 1500fps with soft cast.

[Edward]

Cannot relate any cast experience. Jacketed hunting bullets are all I use to hunt with. Why compromise on accuracy, trajectory and energy to save a few dollars a year....if that? But I hunt with modern calibers that benefit from the attributes of jacketed bullets.

But critters are unpredictable. I have had deer in the same point of impact DRT and also run 50 yards...go figure.

Cost is never a consideration with me (never was) it was casting the perfect bullet @ the correct (BHN) for the intended target being target or game ! Close to 50 yrs casting (a sport in itself) produces perfect results if I do my part . I consider lead and all it"s alloyed variations superior to any copper clad (BOOLIT) ,why I have not bought or considered anything other than projectiles produced by me for the specific target . Your mileage /experience (skill level casting will vary) and so will the results/Ed

[sharps4590]

Killed a LOT of game with both kinds of bullets. Swore off jacketed bullets 25 or more years ago when I learned I could have as good, if not better results with cast bullet and, I got tired of cleaning liquified internals. I would MUCH rather dress an animal killed with one of my cast loaded rifles as to dress one my wife shoots with her 243. It ain't about saving money or a little blood shot meat, I simply don't like the mess and, it's another component I have control of.

[ABJ]

Interesting this thread popped up today, just yesterday I was reading different energy numbers and comparing to TKO numbers. I too have killed plenty of deer with both jacketed and cast as well as muzzleloaders. Trying to say X is better than Y on paper is in my opinion useless.
Case in point, several years ago I took a big doe with a 45 round ball, muzzle vel. around 1700/1800. Double lung, broadside at 60 yds. She ran around 25/30 yards and dropped. Years later, same shot with a 45-70, 300 grain FP and 1200 muzzle vel.(Fork horn) exact same results.
What can I draw from this experience? A double lung broadside shot with a not expanding bullet/boolit, gives about the same results without regard to small differences in caliber or nose profile.
We harvest a lot of meat in our hunt club, with the vast majority being taken with a 35 Remington, cast, 200 grain Lee FN running 1800 at the muzzle. The average run is around 35 yds give or take. Heart and nervous system hits are DRT. Raking shots with less than perfect placement can result in a 200 yd track.
Before we all switched to cast the above story is about the same with .243 all the way to 30-06 jacketed. Always take ethical shots you know you can make and never feel under gunned because your using a boolit you made.
Tony

[farmbif]

the writeup sixshot gave us here just last week about his experience hunting in Africa was an excellent real world testament of just how effective cast bullets can be.

[elk hunter]

From squirrels to Cape Buffalo I've taken a lot of game with jacketed bullets and a number with lead. Both will give good or poor results based more on bullet placement than type, if the bullet is appropriate for the game.

[ChristopherO]

Cast boolits allow me to shoot much more often. I really like to shoot. When Ohio was a shotgun, muzzleloader, pistol state for deer only the Lightfield Hybred Sabot Slugs cost nearly $2.00 per round. I shot a few sighters a year to prepare, but target practicing was out of the question. When ODNR opened up to straight wall cartridges I procured a 45/70, cast, load and shoot to my heart's content for pennies compared to factory ammo. Did I mention that I like to shoot? Casting and loading allows this much more often. Plus, knowing how well constructed lead boolits kill game with these types of firearms justifies hunting with them, but I know how they perform and follow through accordingly. Yes, I load jacketed bullets, too, and have hunted with them whenever I am in a state that bottle neck rounds are legal, so I understand the dynamics of their effects on game, also. My oldest son has taken all his elk and mule deer with the handloads I put together for him using Nosler Partitions in the 30 calibers, or the Hornady SP's in the 338. The elk I shot in the late 90's was using Nosler PT out of the same box as my son has so successfully put to use. I am not opposed to either jacketed or cast to hunt with. My objective to write is to encourage those who may not have the amount of experience with this type of projectile to accept that many times the reaction will be different than what is seen on TV or what they've encountered using commercially jacketed bullets. Still, the end result will be found at the end of the blood trail for either boolit/bullet.

[Tripplebeards]

Here is an example of three deer taken with to hard of an alloy using a mag rifle at 1750 FPS. I had 2 run over a 100 yards with little to no blood trail. The third one dropped because i hit bone. The shattered bone acted like HP fragments and dropped it. The deer still kicked around for a good minute or two for expiring even through it dropped. I shot a few nuisance raccoons with a 255 grain, 45 colt at 575 FPS. With the same slow reaction. A 22lr out of a pistil kills like lightening compared to the Colt load. I did shoot a deer with my 35 Remington last year like lightning. I used a 200 grain HP casted of 50/50 at 2100 FPS. Here are the posts on my past experiences. I am guessing once you get 2,000 FPS and above the “shock” value comes into play for a “faster kill”.



https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?373867-First-deer(s)-with-cast-boolits!-Used-my-devastators!!!


https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?414159-Finally-shot-a-deer-with-my-Marlin-336-and-our-200-grain-HP-group-buy!


I do plan on trying my 44 mag on deer this year during the holiday hunt. The load will be around 1600 FPS or so with a 7.5 BH HP. I hoping the after lead HP expands quickly for some energy transfer and good blood trail if needed this time around. If the deer runs after the shot no one seems to hunt on the surrounding neighbors properties during the hunt…and if so it’s not a wall hanger buck someone else will end up with if ends up crossing fences and the neighbor tags it. They only other thing I shot with cast was aa rabbit at 136 yards. I used the same Lyman devastator with a max load of W296 and 100% COWW. It cut the rabbit in half.

https://i.imgur.com/kQY8UqQ.jpg

[Buck Shot]

Groundhogs can be surprisingly tough. I once shot one thru the body with a 270 Win 130 gr SP at almost point-blank range and he managed to crawl a surprisingly long distance before I finished him off.

On the other hand, I've shot rabbits with a shotgun that I swear must have died from a heart attack. I couldn't find a single pellet or drop of blood...go figure.

[Soundguy]

Nicely stated Chris.

High velocity bullets that explode, and slow and heavy bullets with flat meplats that just plow through both work, they just work differently. Shot placement is critical with both but more so with the latter. Yes, you might need to be able to track the shot animal. Maybe it's not for where hunters are packed tightly together. There I would think you'd want the target to drop immediately or close to it.

I've never had to use it (now I can't), but a red lensed flashlight is said to work great on a blood trail.

I like the big flat meplat lead bullets for hunting vs jacketed soft point.

I got sucked into a discussion on an un named social media post accidentally ( was a discussion on a squib round and a barrel full of stacked bullets ).. ... anyway.. some people there were talking about how much better jacketed bullets were at hunting and at how dismally bad lead bullets were.. and.. frankly I just didnt agree. I pointed out that in 1873? alone 1.5m buffs were killed alone.. and those were likely with plain lead, black powder 45-70's.. not to mention all of the safari hunts with black powder express rifles and bore rifles on the dark continent.. and every pre 1880 squirrel gun.. fowler or round ball shooter.. IMHO.. lead has probably taken more game in history than jacketed.. but that's a guess. I can push a gas checked and hardened, but sized to fit bore well.. bullet up -near- jacketed velocities and have a nice game taker with a flat nose... no shedding of jackets.. crumbling.. just a nice stop halfway or more thru the animal and an increase in diameter of 100 or more percent at the mushroom. I just havn't seen that with jacketed ammo. I used to hunt with jacketed.. and can remember digging out pieces of jacket and fragmented projectiles during cleaning vs a stumpy mushroom shaped chunk of lead...

Opinions?

[Tripplebeards]

We all know an animal will die when hit in the heart and lungs but in my experience it seems that the slower the boolit/bullet velocity, the longer it takes for it to expire and usually little to no blood trail. Of course if backbone, spine, or head is hit they will drop no matter how slow or fast a bullet is pushed. I’ve also experienced really fast velocities using Nosler Accubonds with run off with well placed shots. It’s when they first came out…don’t know if they have changed the alloy or design since? I quit using Nosler accubonds after poking a few 180 grainers out of a 30-06 through both lungs of a few buck and had them still stand in place like they weren’t hit and eventually run off. All were recovered. Looked like an arrow with a field point or FMJ poked right through both bucks I recovered. I had the same experience with a 375 RUM and 260 grain accubonds on Deer. Two double lung and part of the heart on one and both ran over a hundred yards with zero blood. Zero energy transfer and hole poking makes for long trailing from my past experiences. I’ll take a soft expanding boolit/bullet for hunting game 100% of the time that dumps energy causing trauma, and usually a good blood trail…if even needed. I’d don’t worry about eating all the way to the hole and never will. We can shoot unlimited deer here in WI. I always have left over venison every year I end up giving to friends, relatives, and donate. I’d rather see an animal drop in its tracks and loose a little meat.

[dverna]

I have a unique situation. I need a bullet that will work in a .308 at ranges from 50 to 300 yards. There is no incentive to turn a .308 into a less than a .30/30.

If cast hunting bullets in a rifle are superior projectiles for most of you, that is what you should use. But they are not the best for shooters who want accuracy, expansion and wind resistance at longer ranges. That is an important distinction...hunters vs shooters. I do not "hunt", I "shoot".

As to the argument that cast bullets allow for cheap practice...ding, ding, ding!!! That is the only reason I used cast bullets, but not in HV rifles. I have a couple of .30 cal and .22 molds I have never used. Got them for SHTF...or if our government tries to limit access to bullets. I was using .38/.357 caliber rifles to practice with until primers went nuts. (I used .38's because we shoot a lot and like to reload with cheap brass on a Dillon 1050.) I have found less expensive ways to get trigger time because with current primer prices, cast bullet shooting is no longer cheap.

[Soundguy]

I can't guess why you are unable to get accuracy out of cast loads.. I have found that I can dial a rifle in with cast and handloads vs the commercial mass produced fodder that has to chamber in every single rifle ever made in that caliber. Once you find good bore fit and ladder test up some powders..you are there. Wind resistance at extended range with a big meplat bullet is about the only thing I can think of where jacketed gets a clear hand up. I've found that big meplats in decently fast gas checked lead tends to make fine DRT animal hits vs almost AP qualities of hyper fast jacketed. My hogs always drop... I don't have to follow blood trails..or kill 2 animals with 1 shot like I have seen a hunter do... And unfortunately for him..he didn't have a doe tag for his secondary kill.

I'm also not one of those hunters that take inspiring shots at hundreds of yards where an animal has no clue. If I can't stalk up to 100 yards.. Im not going to pop an animal. Even my big safari guns are 50-150 yard guns..most regulating at about 75. As for big meplat? Federal made some nice solids in 416 rigby that I like... Huge meplat to plow thru.

I shoot and hunt....

[444ttd]

i have been on the cast boolit button for about 10 years. jacketed bullets was/is around 25+ years. all of the deer i shot, cast or jacketed, will either run or go DRT. on average, the run will be 30-50 yards, although i have a 125+ yards and a 500+ yards to my....ah..well....credit. and yes, they are a jacketed bullet kills.

jacketed bullets

the 125+ yards is my son's(he shot it), but i tracked it. he was about 25+/- yards away when he shot the big doe(175-200lbs). he was using a custom 98 mauser in 7x57 and 139gr hornady fn(discontinued) at 2500-2600fps. he shot the doe in the back lungs. she ran thru the brush and she disappeared. she was easy to find because of all the blood she leaked. i was impressed with the doe, because just when you think you have all the answers......

the 500+ yards is my fault. i was using a rem m700 in 243 with 85gr barnes x bullet going around 3000fps(i think, it was so long ago). i shot the doe right behind the shoulder at about 25-30 yards and she ran away. i waited about 10-15 minutes before i got onto her trail. there was little to no blood, but there was snow on there ground. i tracked her about 400+/- yards until i got into mountain laurel. then i got on my knees and hands to track her. i went about 100+/-yards till i found her. she was shot, like a pencil, behind the shoulder, thru both lungs and went out. i was disappointed with the new x bullet. i was also disappointed with the 243(i had rem 700 a,b, cdl and rem m7), so i sold her and i never returned to it.

i shot a 8 pt at 10-12 feet with my ruger #1 in 270 with 130gr nosler bt going around 3000fps. he ran about 50+/- yards till he gave up the ghost. there was also no blood or no snow on the ground, just disturbed leaves. i found him by tripping over him:mrgreen:, i was into my tracking!!!!! he was shot high in the shoulder and there was lung soup with hearty chunks of heart or a grenade went off into him. you choose. there was not exit wound. there was also alot of shoulder meat that had to be thrown away(bloodshot). i shot quite a few deer with this gun/bullet and every deer i killed under 100 yards was the same way as the 8 pt.


cast boolits

every deer i killed(expect a few) ran about 20-30 yards. i shot them with a 35/30-30 with 200gr fn gc(1700fps), 44 mag/spl with 250 hp/255gr keith/275gr ranch dogs/280gr wfn, 444 marlin 275gr ranch dog/280gr wfn/fn gc/300 gr fn gc(1600-2100fps), 45-70 with 405gr fn(1300fps).

the few that i and my son have killed are all DRT. we are using my great grandfather's sporterized 1898 spr armory in 30-40 krag with 165gr ranch dogs at 1900fps. i have killed 6 or 7 deer that average about 40 yards, with one 120 yards+/- away. my son has killed 5 or 6 deer that average about 60 yards, with one 150+ yards and with another 173 yards(laser range finder thingy). all of them have been one shot and every one them goes straight down. shoulder or behind the shoulder, doesn't matter. i am stating a matter of fact, one day, the deer will run. but i bet that they don't go over 40 yards.

oh, the other drt was a doe at 50 yards with my 9.3x57 and 275gr wfn gc and it was a behind the shoulder shot. it broke a rib on entry, made a 1 1/2 - 2" dia hole thru both lungs and then broke two more ribs before it exited.



DRT or running, the jacketed bullets make a mess out of meat. cast does not. i hunt(even tho i'm disabled) and the closer the deer is, the better. i use cast basically because i was tired of killing deer with jacketed bullets. cast boolits breathed a whole new life into my shooting. how fast does it go? what alloy? its a whole different ball game now.

[dverna]

I have a unique situation. I need a bullet that will work in a .308 at ranges from 50 to 300 yards. There is no incentive to turn a .308 into a less than a .30/30.

I am lazy and cheap. A jacketed bullet does that for less than $40/100 and I can work up a load using less than 100 bullets. I bought a lifetime supply (500) of hunting bullets for less than $200. Much cheaper than trying different molds, alloys, lubes and burning up GC's, powder and primers to find a cast bullet that will not do as good a job as jacketed anyway. YMMV

Note: Important to draw the distinction between hunters and shooters. I am a shooter and not reluctant to taking a 300 yard shot in the wind. Hunters who take game at less than 100 yards do not need the performance advantages (trajectory, accuracy, wind resistance) of jacketed bullets. In addition, first shot out of group, or how lube performs at -15* vs 75* (I can be hunting at those extremes in MI) has less impact at shorter ranges.

Use what works for your hunting conditions. For the vast majority of game taken, the range is under 100 yards and using cast bullets will not limit your opportunities. If you hunt where you can get a 300 yard shot, things change.

[versa-06]

I love the sport (as stated above) of casting & loading my own. And I live in an area w-Long & short shots. Usually carry a 35-45 cal rifle using cast, & a 223 up to 30-06 along also loaded with J-words for the Long shots that I don't want to miss out on. I 4-wheel up close then put one rifle on my back along with my back pack & carry the other the rest of the way. I do this even when hunting Yotes, I hold the cast rifle & prop the other beside me for the extra long stuff.

[Soundguy]

I just never felt the sport in a long range shot..
Is there really any 'sport' in shooting a goat on the next mountain using a Hubble telescope, then hiking down your mountain and up the next mountain to find the animal you shot 6 hours ago..who by the time you get him down will only be good for mounting? You are past the animals range of visual acuity and well past scent range and earshot... And you have -0- skin in the game. The word 'sport' just doesn't fit good.

It may well be a challenge to line up that 1200yd shot on your 3000$ rifle...which 2000$ of it is glass... But.. The animal had no chance or recourse... At best it's a lucky challenge... An animal walked into a shooting lane a quarter mile from you and you got him.

Totally different feel than following a hog and watching him thru a space in a tree trunk as he smells you.. That animal has a chance.. And you have to work for it..stalk it.. Etc. 100 and lower yard shots are hunting... Long shots are harvesting... Just my opinion...

[Edward]

Gentleman on youtube I know personally shoots to 1200 yds with those inaccurate lead projectiles out of sidelocks (muzzle loader TC renegades that will keep up with a lot of those copper clad ones and he does it with a Lyman receiver site or a Lee Shaver venier . And the man hunts but boy can he shoot targets ,so much for target/accuracy and he proves it on a regular basis (ID----Lewis)

[ABJ]

I agree with most everything that has been said so for. For me I like having as much control as possible with the ammo. But I also agree with "dverna", if my hunting spot had 300 yds shots instead of 100 then I would be using jacketed. There are plenty of reasons that one is better than the other and its up the the hunter and his skill level to pick the best option. On my hunting grounds I choose cast because I think I get cleaner kills than jacketed and always get two holes vs having a jacketed bullet blow up because the impact velocity was higher than the bullet was built for. And yes I know I have some control over bullet selection but not like I do with cast.
Tony

[sharps4590]

IF there was the possibility of a 300 yard shot where I hunt, I have several rifles there is NO DOUBT I could easily place a cast bullet well in the boiler room. I'm not buyin' cast bullets are ineffective beyond spittin' distances for a nano second. If 200 to 480 grains of bullet won't kill an animal at 300 yards it won't do it at 50..and I know better.

If I didn't know my rifle and load any better than that, I wouldn't tell anyone.

[Duckiller]

Last deer I shot was a fair sized doe.
Shot her at about 40 yds. from an elevated stand with a 270 using a Nosler 150 gr partition. As soon as the bullet hit her she started running. Ran around in an open field for about 80 to 100 yds. then dropped. No blood trail. I had hit lung and heart. Her chest cavity was full of blood. I was initially disappointed in the bullets effect. Thought I was going to loose a deer on my last day of hunting. Plane ticket for the next day. Once my brother and I dressed her out I realized that she was dead the minute the bullet hit her, she just didn't realize it. Point is animals react differently even when mortally wounded.

[Jedman]

This pretty much explains this phenomenon, https://youtu.be/BvWhX2MHzYQ

Jedman

[Buck Shot]

I just never felt the sport in a long range shot..
Is there really any 'sport' in shooting a goat on the next mountain using a Hubble telescope, then hiking down your mountain and up the next mountain to find the animal you shot 6 hours ago..who by the time you get him down will only be good for mounting? You are past the animals range of visual acuity and well past scent range and earshot... And you have -0- skin in the game. The word 'sport' just doesn't fit good.

It may well be a challenge to line up that 1200yd shot on your 3000$ rifle...which 2000$ of it is glass... But.. The animal had no chance or recourse... At best it's a lucky challenge... An animal walked into a shooting lane a quarter mile from you and you got him.

Totally different feel than following a hog and watching him thru a space in a tree trunk as he smells you.. That animal has a chance.. And you have to work for it..stalk it.. Etc. 100 and lower yard shots are hunting... Long shots are harvesting... Just my opinion...

None of it is "sport" unless and until the animal agrees to be hunted. Absent that, it's predation. Nothing more and nothing less.

There's also a conflict between some people's idea of "sport" versus being humane and trying to ensure a fast, clean kill.

I suppose if you wanted to maximize "sport," you could climb up into a tree in your breechcloth and jump down on the deer with your Clovis and cut its throat. Plenty "sporting," I suppose, but would it be humane? What percentage of attempts would lead to a kill? 10%? One percent? And what percentage would lead to a wounded animal?

On the other end of the spectrum, I suppose one could hunt over lights and bait and shoot deer from a rest on the hood of the car at 25 yards. Plenty "humane," since you'd have about zero chance of wounding the animal, but is it "sporting"?

In between those two extremes -- where I would guess that 99.999% of us hunt -- is just a varying shade of gray.

More to the point: Attacking "the other guy's" method of hunting as somehow less virtuous, less "sporting" or less humane than your own method serves no one and nothing. Because at the end of the day, unless and until those prey animals AGREE to be hunted, it's not sport, and it's not "fair chase." It's predation.

What prey animals would choose to be hunted?

Sorry for the soap box, but this is a pet peeve of mine.

[Soundguy]

I didn't attack anyone's hunting or harvesting method. I did however express my opinion that " I " did not feel that multi thousand yard shots were sporting. I think it takes great skill and or gear to make those shots...but as I said before..with -0- skin in the game.. It's not sporting.

When you are 40 yards from a herd of dangerous game that CAN smell you and see you..and CAN charge to point blank range in the time it takes you to notice and shoulder a rifle, and said animal can hand-wave killing you... Then..you have skin in the game... And it's sporting. Everyone has a chance at a kill..even the animals. And if you don't think close range hunting of dangerous animals nets a few animal getting their point across..check out videos of dangerous game gone wrong. Including cats that pop out of a bush 3' away... Bears..large/many hogs.. Cape buff. Hippo...etc. Sorry.. That's my pet peeve and soapbox... Setting a quarter mile away and acting like that is anything other than target shooting on live targets... It's not, again imho, SPORTING. the animal has 0 chance. Get a few yards away from a 14000 pound animal... That's sporting... ( fair odds in a game or contest ). At least in close proximity to your animal it can use its better than human senses to evade or predate you... And you can use your reduced senses and lethally powered tools to also try and do the same... Ie... You have skin in the game. ) the mountain goat 1200 yards away... Where's your skin? = it doesn't exist... That's why I don't call it sporting. Challenging display of skill? Sure...

[Buck Shot]

One could just as easily argue that any dope can bait in a hog and shoot it at 50 feet. No marksmanship skill needed and not much else.

On the other hand, you could also argue that a goat at 600 yds has a lot more chance to get away than the hog at 50 ft. In the time it takes a bullet to travel 600 yds, a goat could take three steps.

Personally, I think "shooting a hog at 50 feet" is more on the humane end of the spectrum (not a lot of sport, but fairly humane) than shooting (at) a goat at 600 yds, since the goat stands a bigger chance of being wounded (less humane) but it's also a lot harder to shoot one at 600 (more "sporting"), meaning he has more of a chance to get away.

My main point is that it's ALL predation, just different forms. And none of it is "fair" unless and until the animal agrees to be a part of it. People who bandy about these terms -- "fair chase," "sporting," etc. -- are kidding themselves if they think any of it is much different than the rest of it.

It's no different than the guy who says, "I see no reason AR-15s shouldn't be banned" when he wants to keep his Auto-5 and Remington 7400. They're all semi-autos and all operate the exact same way, none of them "spray bullets," none of them are "weapons of war," AR-15s aren't "more powerful" than any other gun (they're less powerful than most deer rifles), and they're used in less than 2% of all murders. Handguns are used in 17X as many murders as rifles of any kind. And if they can get away with banning a gun that's used in less than 2% of all murders, you'd better believe they can get away with banning them all.

Point is, trying to draw a distinction where is no difference, does nobody any favors. Some people consider bowhunting to be bordering on inhumane, since so many arrowed deer escape to die in pain, but it's plenty "sporting," I guess, for the same reason: More chance for the animal to get away. But for a hunter to attack bowhunting as "inhumane" is kind of dumb, since any and every method of hunting -- PREDATION -- falls somewhere on the line between "sporting" and "humane." We're all in this boat together, and it doesn't help when people attack other hunters or other hunting methods. They may not realize it, but their own methods can also be attacked. A hunting method that is supposedly "more sporting" is very often less humane, since there's usually more of a chance for the animal to be wounded. And a hunting method that is supposedly "more humane" -- using a tree to steady a rifle for example -- is very often less "sporting," since the animal has less chance of getting away.

[versa-06]

Hunting is a sport, Yes. I believe the sport statement I made was in reference to casting & loading my own which in my opinion adds to the sport. Not Long Range being the sport. The jacketed rifle is for the shots I don't feel comfortable with shooting cast. I am a meat hunter & don't like it blood shot meat. But I surely don't want that long range Yote to have a chance. I am his predator.

[Soundguy]

Millennial thinking must be catching on more.

It's amazing that expressing an opinion of what I consider as sporting is being equated to attacking someone else's actions.

Predation isn't the problem here...

Our country is circling the drain...

[Buck Shot]

"Millennial"? Nah, I missed that by about 50 years. ;-)

Anyway, sorry for the derail, ChristopherO...

[Edward]

I didn't attack anyone's hunting or harvesting method. I did however express my opinion that " I " did not feel that multi thousand yard shots were sporting. I think it takes great skill and or gear to make those shots...but as I said before..with -0- skin in the game.. It's not sporting.

When you are 40 yards from a herd of dangerous game that CAN smell you and see you..and CAN charge to point blank range in the time it takes you to notice and shoulder a rifle, and said animal can hand-wave killing you... Then..you have skin in the game... And it's sporting. Everyone has a chance at a kill..even the animals. And if you don't think close range hunting of dangerous animals nets a few animal getting their point across..check out videos of dangerous game gone wrong. Including cats that pop out of a bush 3' away... Bears..large/many hogs.. Cape buff. Hippo...etc. Sorry.. That's my pet peeve and soapbox... Setting a quarter mile away and acting like that is anything other than target shooting on live targets... It's not, again imho, SPORTING. the animal has 0 chance. Get a few yards away from a 14000 pound animal... That's sporting... ( fair odds in a game or contest ). At least in close proximity to your animal it can use its better than human senses to evade or predate you... And you can use your reduced senses and lethally powered tools to also try and do the same... Ie... You have skin in the game. ) the mountain goat 1200 yards away... Where's your skin? = it doesn't exist... That's why I don't call it sporting. Challenging display of skill? Sure...

No way do I get within a quarter mile of a 14 thousand lb animal without my handi/dandi RPG ,just sayin Ed

[Edward]

Well stated Buckshot,I personally dislike anyone bad mouthing any legal method of hunting/Ed

[farmbif]

[QUOTE=Buck Shot;5266604]None of it is "sport" unless and until the animal agrees to be hunted. Absent that, it's predation. Nothing more and nothing less.

There's also a conflict between some people's idea of "sport" versus being humane and trying to ensure a fast, clean kill.

I suppose if you wanted to maximize "sport," you could climb up into a tree in your breechcloth and jump down on the deer with your Clovis and cut its throat. Plenty "sporting," I suppose, but would it be humane? What percentage of attempts would lead to a kill? 10%? One percent? And what percentage would lead to a wounded animal?

I'm pretty sure those Clovis points were on the end of an arrow or spear
an old timer who collects fossils and points and stuff showed me a fossilized deer shoulder bone that had one of those stone points imbedded in it and it was clear to see that the bone healed or grew around it. wish I had a picture it was quite the relic

[JohnH]

For six years I hunted with nothing but cast boolits. I used 44 Magnum, 357 Maximum, 38-55, 45-70 and an H&R 50 cal muzzle loader using the modified Lee 310 with sabot. The boolits were A modified Lee 429310, gas shank removed, boolit weight 250 grains; a Saeco 180 grain RFN, the Lyman 375449 and the Lee 458405 HP. Between the 5 guns I killed 9 deer, all shots were inside 50 yards and no deer traveled more than 40 yards, most dropped within 25. The following several years I hunted using 223, 243, 30-30, 7 Mauser, 30-06. I used the Winchester 64 grain SP, Remington 100 SP, a Winchester 150 SP, Hornady 120 Vmax and Speer 150 Hot Core SP at 2600 fps. The ranges were the same except the doe shot with the 243 which was at 225 yards. Those guns accounted for 8 deer. For practical purposes I could tell no difference between the performance of the jacketed bullets and the cast and could tell no difference in the deer's reactions to being hit, even the one I shot with the 7 Mauser at 10 yards!

Am I saying that cast boolit performance is equal to jacketed bullet performance? No. As has been mentioned by others, there are things jacketed bullets will do that cast will not. I am however saying that each in their own ways are just as deadly as the other. There is simply too much solid and successful experience with cast boolits and hunting for anyone to say that they won't do a proper job of making clean kills. Deer are not armor plated, neither are Cape Buffalo, American Bison or elk. Do your homework, practice practice practice, know and live within your limitations and either bullet will serve you well.

[gunseller]

I have shot deer from 5 yards to 600 yards using cast bullets. The 5 yards were with several different handguns and a traditional muzzle loader. The 600 was using a trap door springfield and blackpowder loaded ammo. Also using the original Buffington rear sight. Being close when I was18 didn't feel sporting. What I was hunting shot back and at 10 to 30 yards.
Steve

[Petander]

I remember a moose that I shot @ 10 yards with 30-96, Norma Oryx factory round.

A clean lungs through, that moose ran half a mile before dropping. Why? No, the bullet didn't fail but that moose had been chased by dogs for hours and was full of adrenaline. It knew it was being hunted, it knew there were humans around and after it.

Another big moose had no idea what hit it @ 420 meters, it had been shot in the guts the day before and I got the call to "clean it up", open field, long shot needed. 338 Lapua, that moose took five steps and DRT. And yes,I have practised 300-600 meters for 25 years regularly, J bullets.

Adrenaline can change the requirements for a quick kill.

A friend just reported about the new Sako Blade bullet. He has already shot 16 whitetails with it in 300 WM, ranges from 20 to 320 meters. With decades of 300 WM experience he says it" s the best bullet ever, accuracy at 100m is under 10 mm / 5. It will not shatter @ 900 m/s bone impact, it will open @ 400 m/s...

I have no chances to better that with any cast bullet.

Now please don't get me wrong, cast is very effective. I love to cast bullets, I love to shoot cast, I have some accurate loads for 45-70 and shotgun slugs... but I always hunted with J. I have collected some 45-70 J bullets from the opposite side hide, shot maybe seven moose with 45-70. Very effective. 350 Hornady @ 2100 being favourite. Speer 400 is good,too,softer.

I would not hesitate to use my cast Applegate FN 470 grain 45-70 load on bear. But we have these laws here, an EXPANDING bullet is mandatory for all game and cast is classified as solid.

[versa-06]

To some it's not sport unless within 5-70 yds. to others that's an execution, too close needs to be 200 yds plus. To some using all the gismos available (scent blocker, camo, range finders, scopes, rifles, & etc.) is not sport just a hand gun. No! maybe a bow, No! too much advantage, Spear maybe? Or maybe we should just go get a rock & then some liberal will say it's "inhumane".

[gunseller]

What is sporting is up to the one doing it. As long as it is a humane kill. 500 plus shots are not for me. Yes I have shot deer at 600 using a BPCR. Do I want to do it again? No. To me sport hunting involves getting close. I mean kissing close. Do I think the people who want to shoot 500 plus are wrong? No it just is not for me.
Steve

[Soundguy]

would not hesitate to use my cast Applegate FN 470 grain 45-70 load on bear. But we have these laws here, an EXPANDING bullet is mandatory for all game and cast is classified as solid.

Well.. that is ignorance. Lead can be a solid AND expanding. I wonder if anyone who wrote that rule looked at the composition of MOST expanding jacketed bullets... since MOST have lead cores. Besides.. I wonder what a lead hollowpoint would be classified as?

In any event.. expanding or not.. looks like finland over the next 5 years.. or less will be removing ALL lead from hunting... so.. they better re classify what is a monolithic solid or not.. or yall better get used to eating fragmented zinc or bismuth in your meat when it replaces lead.

read here:

https://metsastajaliitto.fi/en/uutiset/echa-publishes-proposal-restrict-lead-bullets-gunshot-and-fishing-weights

[Buck Shot]

... yall better get used to eating fragmented zinc or bismuth in your meat when it replaces lead.

At the risk of appearing to be stalking you, Soundguy (honestly, I'm not), I gotta comment on this notion.

This is the exact same strategy the anti-gunners used about 10 years ago, when they set out to ban all lead ammo (and I believe they succeeded in California). They claimed that when game animals are hit with bullets containing lead, the lead bullet fragments into a bajillion pieces and (somehow) that lead goes everywhere throughout the animal, kinda like X-rays or gamma rays, and no matter how well you try to fish it out when butchering the animal, lead gets through and goes into your food. Or supposedly.

Then they concocted some "studies" to "prove" that hunters who consumed wild game had higher lead levels in their blood than those who didn't eat wild game.

The only problem is that they "cherry picked" their data, and lost in the results -- and only very rarely reported by the anti-gun, anti-hunting media -- was the fact that the kids in their "study" who ate NO wild game actually had higher lead levels in their blood than kids who regularly ate deer, etc. OOPS!

Point is, it's not hard to keep bullet fragments out of your food, whether they're lead, zinc, bismuth or unobtainium -- and the notion that hunters are POISONING THEIR KIDS WITH LEAD!!! is fake news BS concocted to serve an agenda to ban lead bullets, plain and simple. If it's deer, you don't use the meat near where the bullet passed through, which isn't difficult since (with j-bullets at least) the lead-tainted meat is generally a bloodshot mess, and you'd have to be mighty hungry to eat it. As for small game killed with lead shot, if I'm not mistaken, even if you swallow a few pellets, they won't elevate the lead in your blood much because the particles are too big -- it's the tiny fragments with lots of surface area that you want to avoid (like the powdered lead oxide in old paints).

I suspect that we bullet casters inhale and swallow far more lead in our casting activities than even somebody who eats nothing except lead-shot wild game...which may be one reason (some) hunters in the study mentioned above had higher blood lead levels than the general population...

[brewer12345]

I prefer to hunt with cast for big game, but sometimes I choose jacketed. Deer an an ideal cast proposition for me. They aren't that hard to kill and I usually can get close enough that the extra accuracy I get from jacketed at longer ranges (150+ yards) doesn't matter. I also appreciate the fact that cast tends to result in less lost meat, since I have to get in a lottery for deer tags and generally only get one a year (and for 3 years running I cannot even get a rifle tag). The last 3 were with cast (1 in 30-06, 2 with .530 round ball) and at reasonable ranges I have no problems with the effectiveness of cast on deer. Heck the two round ball were iffy shot placement (to far back/liver and a Texas heart shot) and the deer didn't go far or require another shot.

Then there are times I choose jacketed. I will be hunting pronghorn and elk this year. Pronghorn are lightly constructed animals, but hard to get close to. I will not be surprised if any shot I take this year is beyond 200 yards. Elk are another matter. I need my bullet to be all it can be on a much tougher animal and ranges could be beyond 300 yards. Partitions in a 30-06 are all I want to use. Are there potential situations where a cast bullet could be used on either of these animals? Sure, but I could not get those tags.

[Thumbcocker]

I don't consider hunting as "sport". I never really cared for that term but I applaud the ethics that evolved from "sportsmen".

Hunting is a real thing in a world where real things are getting ever more scarce. It is a connection to what we are at a very old level. It is a reminder of what we were.

Some say "a gun is a tool" maybe for them but for me a gun, especially a hunting gun, is much more than a shovel or a wrench. It is an instrument of the ritual that connects me to my roots and the circle of life that we all are part of. Holding a warm heart in your hand will never be a "sport".

Like any ritual how the result is achieved is important. The journey is as important as the destination. If the objective is a dead critter, then snares, bait, poison, or spotlights can brig about the result far more efficiently.

How the critter dies is important. I once heard ethics described as " doing the right thing when no one would know that you did it".

Ethics are deeply personal. I have acquaintances who go to the Dakotas and shoot prairie dogs. I have seen video they made. It showed many examples of excellent marksmanship. What they were doing was perfectly legal, welcomed by the landowner, and probably beneficial to the ecosystem. I choose not to do it.

I am unapologetically a meat hunter. If it is legal and in range and I will eat it I will kill it. I don't "harvest" a critter. I kill them
Taking a life is not like pulling up a carrot. It should never be trivialized. The critters i kill are all going to die. As am I. I hope to give them as painless a death as possible and won't waste them.

I am disgusted by actors on video complaining about how the rack on the critter doesn't quite measure up or prancing around like they are at a football game after a kill. If the critter didn't measure up why did you end it's life Einstein?

My hunting is personal. I comply with my ethics even when no one is watching.

[Buck Shot]

Well-said, Thumbcocker.

[Soundguy]

At the risk of appearing to be stalking you, Soundguy (honestly, I'm not), I gotta comment on this notion.

This is the exact same strategy the anti-gunners used about 10 years ago, when they set out to ban all lead ammo (and I believe they succeeded in California). They claimed that when game animals are hit with bullets containing lead, the lead bullet fragments into a bajillion pieces and (somehow) that lead goes everywhere throughout the animal, kinda like X-rays or gamma rays, and no matter how well you try to fish it out when butchering the animal, lead gets through and goes into your food. Or supposedly.

Then they concocted some "studies" to prove that hunters who consumed wild game had higher lead levels in their blood than those who didn't eat wild game.

The only problem is that they "cherry picked" their data, and lost in the results -- and only very rarely reported by the anti-gun, anti-hunting media -- was the fact that the kids in their "study" who ate NO wild game actually had higher lead levels in their blood than kids who regularly ate deer, etc. OOPS!

Point is, it's not hard to keep bullet fragments out of your food, whether they're lead, zinc, bismuth or unobtainium. If it's deer, you don't use the meat near where the bullet passed through, which isn't difficult since (with j-bullets at least) the lead-tainted meat is generally a bloodshot mess, and you'd have to be mighty hungry to eat it. As for small game killed with lead shot, if I'm not mistaken, even if you swallow a few pellets, they won't elevate the lead in your blood much because the particles are too big -- it's the tiny fragments with lots of surface area that you want to avoid (like the powdered lead oxide in old paints).

I suspect that we bullet casters inhale and swallow far more lead in our casting activities than even somebody who eats nothing except lead-shot wild game...which may be one reason (some) hunters in the study mentioned above had higher blood lead levels than the general population...

Im not sure what point you are trying to make with my post??

I've never had a lead bullet fragment in my meat. I've had them mushroom..bend, bevel..etc..but they have retained weight. When hunting with jacketed even when the bullet didn't pass through it always shed jacket material the whole way through.. And while my cast lead never fragmented..even on bone hits..the jacketed ALWAYS did. I never recovered a full weight jacketed bullet. Many time the jacket stripped back and allowed the core to fragment or split. I always lost more meat shooting jacketed.. Took longer to clean too... Because of those fragments.. And that jacketing like little slivers going everywhere.

That was a big reason why I switched to hunting with cast.

Now..having shot bismuth ..ive found it fractures even worse..crumbles.. Not an overabundance of meat on birds..and when half of it has crumbled shot in it..yuck... As for zinc core ammo.. Used win varmintx with zinc core.. Was not impressed.. Worse than regular lead core jacketed.

I don't want to dig thru bismuth and zinc granules when eating.

[ChristopherO]

Soundguy, I don't think Buck Shot was responding in opposition to your thread, but weaving in the prohibition of lead bullets from Petlander's post
"I would not hesitate to use my cast Applegate FN 470 grain 45-70 load on bear. But we have these laws here, an EXPANDING bullet is mandatory for all game and cast is classified as solid." and your post, #42 of this thread that replied with that quote and your statement about the ignorance of banning lead for hunting, etc... If I am not mistaken, Buck Shot was actually agreeing with you on this topic and giving examples of how the powers that be, or want to be, are trying to enact those same misguided rules on us in the States, too.

All in all, this topic has certainly brought out the passions of our various members.
While I am typing I'll add another story about lead slugs and game reactions to go along with others posted on here. Nigh of 25 years ago, maybe more, I pushed some does and a young buck out of their lair as I was trying to sneak across a field at first light. White tails go north through the brambles as I watched from the south. Within 5 minutes a 12 gauge sounds off, piercing the cold November air from the direction I roused those deer toward. Nearly 3 hours later sitting at the base of a tree in the woods I noticed a fellow walking through the grown up pasture on the farm only I had permission to hunt. Calling out to him and walking over to where his position he told me his name (I knew the family) he had shot a young buck first thing in the morning but for the life of him couldn't find it, as it ran in that direction. Telling him I had pushed that deer toward him we spoke about his shot from a tree stand on the fence line of that farm, how close the buck and does were, very close, and the reaction of the deer upon the shot. He was searching and could not find a drop of blood. Frustrated he knew he had to leave because he promised his wife he would help her with Christmas decorations at church that day. We parted ways on friendly terms and I hadn't walked ten steps when a buck hiding the bushes caused me to bring up my muzzleloader to shoot, only it was already dead with a perfect 72 caliber hole through the chest. "HEY OTT, COME GET YOUR DEER!" There wasn't a pool of blood or any sign of a hit from where I stood, and the deer laid, which was at least 80 yards from his tree stand. It was dead from the moment he had pulled the trigger, but the buck wouldn't believe it until the trail ended. The hunter had given up, and I had the privilege of finding it and helping him pull it out. Moral of the story? Never give up if at all possible.

Now I need to open the package from NOE that the postman just delivered. More lead will be cast soon, so it seems.

[Soundguy]

Laws should have to be fact checked before passed. Whoever wrote that lead was non expanding......

[Tripplebeards]

This post got me all fired up to make sure my 77/44 was still sighted in at a 100 yards. I went out today with some of my loads I had sitting around from last year. It’s a 265 grain Lyman devastator HP loaded with 21 grains of H110. If I remember the velocity is around 1600 FPS and the BH is 7.8. I was aiming at the little orange sticker. My first shot….

https://i.imgur.com/pLjaoiH.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/g5kifrE.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/efJJnQe.jpg

My zero is still on apparently. I then jumped on the Nikon spot on program to approximate my drops. I used a 270 grain Speer and plugged in 1600 FPS muzzle velocity. It said 20” low at 200 yards. Lol

I knew from my 2-7 vx1, on my 336 chambered in 35 Rem, that where the thin and thick part of the cross hairs meet at 7X is about perfect for a 8”/9” drop aiming point at 200 yards. I tried this last year with the gun and shot a 2 1/4” 200 yard group in the bullseye with our 200 grain group buy HP.

Well, anyways I basically eyeballed down the thick part of the cross hair that looked like it was an equal length of the thin part of the crosshair and let my boolit fly at 200 yards. Three for three I hit a 6” gong. I would guess that’s about the limit for effective killing distance on whitetail with my load. I would have to keep a range finder in my pocket if I ever wanted to harvest one at that distance. My load drops like a lead balloon…or boolit. According to my program zeroed at 100 yards drops 6.5 at 150 yards and 12” at 175. I would assume my load would run out of effective deer killing energy past 200 yards??? I would guess 200 yards is probably pushing it?

It’s hard to see the “fresh” 3 hits on the 200 yard gong with my photo but the three hits were bright silver. My boolits sure made that gong swing!

https://i.imgur.com/G4YQKPf.jpg

My goal is to harvest a deer during our anterless and anterless holiday hunts with ALOT softer alloy this time around. I’d like to see if the softer alloy anchors deer quicker than the hard non expanding alloy I tried a few seasons back. I use these hunts to try out cast boolits on deer.

[Soundguy]

Speaking of hard and expanding, does anyone else for recovery and or hammer tests ( I do ). As in shoot a gallon jug full of Jello backed up by inches of stuff like wet phone books?
And of course..hammer on a bullet to see if it fractures or reforms?

I do the hammer test when working up a load with water quenching. For hunting I want hard enough to penetrate the target animal but still mushroom to 2x diameter or as close as I can get.... And no fracturing.

Reminds me..my supply of old phone books is nearly depleted. Used to be able to get stacks of them by the dumpster at the post office.. Havn't seen any in a couple years now.

[Tripplebeards]

I use to… now I just test them on deer instead. The ones that penetrated the farthest and retained the most weight on water jug tests did not work well on deer for me. The ones that had shallow penetration, mushroomed quickly, and lost a lot of weight did excellent. So doing water jug tests imo was a waste of time. I should have listened to other posters on their extensive alloy choices they used on real game animals and it would have have saved a lot of time…and long, frustrating tracking jobs with zero blood to follow.

[ChristopherO]

I followed your posts, Tripplebeards, about the Devastators on those deer and am looking forward to your results this season with the softer alloy. That is an inspiring target photo. You shouldn't have any difficulty tagging out with that type of accuracy.

[Soundguy]

Wow..i hate slugs that loose weight.. Has always mea t more meat loss when I clean..having to chase other cavitation channels where fragments split off. That's why I prefer a softer expanding non fracturing alloy. I tend to think of a target animal weight I want to take and load for over half penetration. That way.. Say I am going for a 150# hog and see a hundred.. I can still go for a heart lung shot and not howitzer him.. Or if I see a 200 or 250.. I know I'm still getting deep enough to not just ride around in 6" of hide, fat and shoulder armor for someone else to get him next season. Only straight soft lead I hunt with are front stuffers... I much prefer my 69 cal musket vs a 50 cal rifle... Most shots have been a max of 40 yrs.. That 69 cal ball is impressive on a hog... I make my own with an old Lyman mold.. And patch with ticking.

[versa-06]

I have shot several deer, coyote, & smaller critters, never a bear yet, maybe this year. I have pretty much settled on 50/50 WW/Pure + pinch of tin to about every load I use (PD'd or Lubed) up to about 2165 fps if the twist rate will tolerate the vel. This combo requires a brush thru the barrel at 3-5 rounds depending on twist & velocity. Almost always some expansion, But a great meat gitter if not too close. I am a meat hunter so I mostly use cast, but Jacketed bullets have their place, especially Yotes at further distances. I haven't found a better "standard" alloy mix "Yet".

[Tripplebeards]

I have shot several deer, coyote, & smaller critters, never a bear yet, maybe this year. I have pretty much settled on 50/50 WW/Pure + pinch of tin to about every load I use (PD'd or Lubed) up to about 2165 fps if the twist rate will tolerate the vel. This combo requires a brush thru the barrel at 3-5 rounds depending on twist & velocity. Almost always some expansion, But a great meat gitter if not too close. I am a meat hunter so I mostly use cast, but Jacketed bullets have their place, especially Yotes at further distances. I haven't found a better "standard" alloy mix "Yet".

Start powder coating them and you won’t have leading.

[versa-06]

OK my bad I posted PD'd meant PC'd. The only 2 I have that require brushing is a 26.5 gr W-296 & 314 gr Smoke"s PC'd flat based boolit out of a 26" 1885 454 casull. Not so much leading I think it's PC residue from no gas check. The other is a 358 Win & 41 gr WC-846 with a 254 gr PC'd boolit about 2165 fps, It does ok for about 5 rounds & then needs the brush. Not lead but a powdery residue. I may need to change coatings & go with Smoke's Bacon Grease.

[bisleyfan41]

We all know an animal will die when hit in the heart and lungs but in my experience it seems that the slower the boolit/bullet velocity, the longer it takes for it to expire and usually little to no blood trail. Of course if backbone, spine, or head is hit they will drop no matter how slow or fast a bullet is pushed. I’ve also experienced really fast velocities using Nosler Accubonds with run off with well placed shots. It’s when they first came out…don’t know if they have changed the alloy or design since? I quit using Nosler accubonds after poking a few 180 grainers out of a 30-06 through both lungs of a few buck and had them still stand in place like they weren’t hit and eventually run off. All were recovered. Looked like an arrow with a field point or FMJ poked right through both bucks I recovered. I had the same experience with a 375 RUM and 260 grain accubonds on Deer. Two double lung and part of the heart on one and both ran over a hundred yards with zero blood. Zero energy transfer and hole poking makes for long trailing from my past experiences. I’ll take a soft expanding boolit/bullet for hunting game 100% of the time that dumps energy causing trauma, and usually a good blood trail…if even needed. I’d don’t worry about eating all the way to the hole and never will. We can shoot unlimited deer here in WI. I always have left over venison every year I end up giving to friends, relatives, and donate. I’d rather see an animal drop in its tracks and loose a little meat.
I would guess that your bullet choices were mismatched to the game. The .30 180gr Accubond and certainly the 260gr AB in a 375 RUM were designed for much heavier game than deer. Deer offer almost no resistance for these heavily-constructed bullets to expand; they're too small. Shoot an elk or moose or large bear with these same loads and I'd bet you have a much better outcome. JMO

[versa-06]

Ref: OP - Alloy type & Speed kills; I read once a Vet. school culled a large amt. of deer over 100 using same shooter, 30-06, attempted same shot placement behind shoulder. Then autopsied all of them. All of the ones that were DRT had brain hemorrhaging. After complete testing of all deer, the conclusion was, That at the time of impact, the heart had put the circulatory system under pressure & the shock wave of the bullet over exceeded the pressure limits of the vessels in the brain, almost like shooting it in the head. The ones shot with a relaxed heart had no vessels in the brain disturbed, and moved after the shot. Maybe this helps explain DRT.

[Tripplebeards]

I would guess that your bullet choices were mismatched to the game. The .30 180gr Accubond and certainly the 260gr AB in a 375 RUM were designed for much heavier game than deer. Deer offer almost no resistance for these heavily-constructed bullets to expand; they're too small. Shoot an elk or moose or large bear with these same loads and I'd bet you have a much better outcome. JMO

Nosler told me I should have used a 150 grain out of my 30-06 so it was pushed above 3,000 FPS muzzle velocity. I had my 180 grainers loaded at 2650 FPS. They told me the same thing. The bullet sailed through with no expansion. It acted like a pointy FMJ. So with that said, I would have thought the 260 grain out of my 26” barreled 375 RUM would have opened up as it was around 3100 FPS. Needless to say I won’t use those bullets any more after shooting a few deer with two different calibers. I have some partitions I’ve tried in both guns but the a accuracy is not where near what a “tipped” bullet is. I have to say neither the accubonds or partitions will group MOA in either guns. The cheap corelocts and ballistic tips will all touch at 100 yards in both guns and will put deer down on the spot.

[bisleyfan41]

I have to say neither the accubonds or partitions will group MOA in either guns. The cheap corelocts and ballistic tips will all touch at 100 yards in both guns and will put deer down on the spot.

My experience is the same. The "grenade" effect the lighter-constructed bullets have really hammers them.

[444ttd]

i have many deer with the 270win and the 130gr nosler bt. at under 100 yards, the bt acts like a grenade. over 100 yards, it mushrooms and goes thru the deer. the furthest i shot was about 375+/- yards away, a thru and thru in the lungs.

what i don't like about bt, is its propensity to act like a grenade and not leave a blood trail. every deer i shot at 100 yards or less, ran after the shot. sure, it was only 40-50 yards, but they did not bleed. never a good time when the deer are swallowed by the brush and jaggers.

i "think" that the ballistic tip was moving too fast(2900-3000fps) to mushroom. i also think that 2800fps and less is optimum bullet performance(meaning the bullet mushrooms[smilie=l:). i never had a chance to work this theory out, because i got into cast boolits and thats where i'll stay.

i have the 140gr hornady sst(270 win) that will go 2800fps, already loaded up.
https://i.imgur.com/GqVfvNN.jpg

130gr nosler bt and imr4320(left group(5 shots)
https://i.imgur.com/iHeWUMa.jpg?1

[Tripplebeards]

I shot a few deer with a 180 grain NBT out my 06 at 2650 fps and it drops them like Thors hammer. It just makes the whole cavity like jello inside. Big mess gutting so I quit using them. Same bullet out of a 300 RUM round 3200 fps dropped a black bear where it stood but made the same internal mess. The .308 180 grain nosler ballistic tip knocks animals over like bowling ball pins every time I pulled the trigger when I use to use them. They just made to big of a mess inside deer so I switched back to core locts.

[HD.375]

So recently an not the first time , a few occaisions now the animal / deer in this instance, has needed a coup de grace when hit with this cast 375 FN jobby , the shot hit behind the arm pit and exited about liver on far side, deer was somewhat angling toward a bit.. good damage and blood trail after 20 yards, an it went another 20 yards an sat down. this has happend couple times.

we waited maybe 5 -10 mins before goin in search of animal...
is it case of placement not ideal, tad forward for the angle?
thats huntin..

this was 60m with williams peep an factory front, filed a little slimmer but nt alot, couldnt really place it any more as bead covers animal enough n target sholder region...?
100m is stretching it imo without just havin some luck the bead covering the vitals and the bullets path cuts the goods.... ? or limit to 75 or so, OR file that bead down more to almost pin like head...... thats an option, as long as it works for focusing on.. ?!
it was also late in the arvo with that 5-10 mins of light left , which i understand can alter the poa with shadows n the darkness etc... anyway, fresh meat
https://i.imgur.com/NU9Dldk.jpg

[ChristopherO]

HD.375, did the wound angle catch both lungs or one lung and the liver? Though there is 30% of the blood in the liver at all times they don't always bleed out as fast as a double lung shot. I find for Whitetail deer that most of the time they will run, die on their feet and hit the ground without a twitch. Yet, there are always those times when a follow up ensures a quick kill. That can happen with cast and jacketed projectiles. The will to live is amazing.

I had filed my front sight post down to a finer point, too, and really liked how that helped in aiming. But something got knocked off and I had to start from scratch with a big square (partridge style) front post. After this coming hunting season I'll likely file it to a finer point again. Wish they would come that way from Skinner. Love their Aperture Sights, Front post is quite wide, though. I try to set it for a 6 O'clock hold with a bit of overlap on the target at 100 yds.

[HD.375]

HD.375, did the wound angle catch both lungs or one lung and the liver?
Love their Aperture Sights, Front post is quite wide, though. I try to set it for a 6 O'clock hold with a bit of overlap on the target at 100 yds.
It is quite possible wit hthe angles that it caught just one an put a hole in liver id assume- proberly a tad Low entry!

yeah theres an interesting point too you make, where the poi is on the bead , ive been somewhat centre bead at 100m or 'bang on' per se.... i may elevate it somewhat so it shoots a bit more along the top of the bead / top 1/4th which may help a bit of over lap for a bit of deer in sight an not jus its back half !
more filing is in order too!

thanks!

[beltfed]

HD375,
Be careful about the idea of sighting with the top of the bead as in a "6:00" hold,
I recall shooting at a large buck with my M86 45=70 with peep and bead and had sighted it for a "top of the bead"
hold. It was a fast, moving shot, and I shot over its back....
I had sub consciously held the bead "center mass"
PS. The bead on my M86 is an ivory 1/16" bead that I had filed to a "square"
Since resighting the rifle to a centermass hold , no problem with fast shots

beltfed/arnie

[wolfdog]

I shoot cast in my 357s, 38-55, 35rem and 45-70. On game, I don't think a jacketed bullet is going to give me any sort of improved performance. Bump up the speed another thousand FPS and things change, IMHO.

[ChristopherO]

HD375,
Be careful about the idea of sighting with the top of the bead as in a "6:00" hold,
I recall shooting at a large buck with my M86 45=70 with peep and bead and had sighted it for a "top of the bead"
hold. It was a fast, moving shot, and I shot over its back....
I had sub consciously held the bead "center mass"
PS. The bead on my M86 is an ivory 1/16" bead that I had filed to a "square"
Since resighting the rifle to a centermass hold , no problem with fast shots

beltfed/arnie

beltfed makes a good point, especially if the Bullseye is large and the 6 O'clock hold is at the very bottom. I've seen some huge 6 O'clock targets folks have printed out. I use a 3" Bullseye to sight in and, as mentioned previously, overlap so the holes appear just above the bead and still in the Bullseye, or slightly above, if I do everything correct. Sometimes they are above and below the bead, but are still a keeper group and should stay in the vitals, even if running. My eyes aren't as sharp as once they were, so if I can keep a 3" group of 5 at 100 yards with a peep sight off shooting sticks I am a happy camper. Where I once could shoot a MOA target with a 1" black dot with an aperture site, I have a hard time now keeping a 3" spot in view at the same range.

[HD.375]

I wnt out the rain today, non stop for 48 hours so i had to go walkabout while it eased mid afternoon.
i was able to lay eyes on a big sambar hind down below me in the creek, 50 meters exactly ranged AFTER the fact I sent a 245gr FN .375 toward her.
At the shot, this one Dropped in her tracks- she was alert on to me-
she Dropped an kicked a few times, then a few seconds later kicked an thrashed but made attempt to get up- bull dozing her way up stream on the bank before launching into the Creek as a last resort.
it was in there i heard her last breathes

fair to say the deer ran approx 20m after the shot.

never got to see entry an exit as she found herself bulldozing through inpenetrable black berrie bush and sounding like finishing up in the creek itself. sigh.

regardless, this has lifted my confidence with this Load.... the bang drop showed it had plenty of oomph and the shot death run was signs of good performance once the boolit went in done its thing an exited.

i'll be trying hard to get a killshot from the Lever on video in these comin weeks... it was too wet to think about filming todays hunt.

[ElCheapo]

I don't know that I have anything really different to share, as my experiences have been the same as what others have posted. In the woods at shorter ranges, I prefer cast bullets for their good wounding ability and reliable penetration. I've used water quenched COWW's in 357 and 30-30 rifles for deer. Nice big meplats in both calibers have dropped deer very quickly with good bullet placement. Last one I shot with a Lyman 311041 was caught in the far shoulder and dropped in it's tracks. This year I'm trying the Lyman 311008, partially because I do shoot at close ranges, but also because I'm PCing these bullets and I want to see how they perform. I'm betting the hardness drop from heating them during the PCing process will aid in expansion and help them hold together for complete penetration. I'll find out in a couple weeks! I also use an NOE 22 caliber 38 grain flatpoint bullet for reduced loads in my 22 hornet. I PC these as well, and 5 grains of Herco gets me 2200 fps and great accuracy for a 22 mag equivalent load. These bullets are instant death on groundhogs here on the farm. Accurate, quiet and cheaper to shoot than 22lr.

Again, I'll echo what others have stated and say I like Jword bullets for longer ranges. In the woods with higher velocity calibers such as 308, 30-06, 270, etc., performance can be unpredictable. You may get full penetration or you may not, depending on shot placement. Lung shots turn a deer's insides into soup, causing death fairly quickly, but you also may waste a lot of meat if you hit a shoulder. In any case, be advised these calibers can make a mess of things at short ranges. IMHO they work better farther out, where reduced velocity limits expansion and increases penetration. Lower velocity cartridges like the 30-30 and 35 Rem work great at woods ranges with the Jwords. In fact, they are ideal. Expansion and penetration are perfect most of the time, resulting in quick death to the animal and little or no bloodshot meat.