00 Buckshot: Minimum Impact Velocity for Whitetail Deer Hunting

[RMc]

What do you consider the minimum effective impact velocity for deer hunting with 00B? Why?

[Hogtamer]

The animals I have killed since I got serious about buckshot loads seem to agree that 1300-1350fps is spot on. Stacked in 2s in appropriate wads with hard shot keeps patterns tight out of full choke at these speeds with excellent penetration.

[Harter66]

1280 with 12 pellets was enough for 10-50 yd 170# wool clad combatants for 60-70 yr in trenches and tunnels . Modern , meaning under 50 yr old , tools and components I would think 1350+-25 fps with 7-9 hits inside 12" as far as that will reach should be enough .

You have a BC value of like .12 , subject to actual alloy and pellet weight , with MC² . WW is lighter but deforms less and will give better patterns and penetrate deeper . You have roughly an emptied 9mm shooting a 75 gr RN every time you pull the trigger . 7 pellets will deliver 7 , 32 cal holes with a cumulative energy of a out a 45-70-405 Trapdoor compatible load from an 1895GG ......of course they will be somewhere between the liver , spine , sternum , and chest . 3 will exit . I got nothing for 000 or 0000B except the pellet count goes down and individual pellet weight goes up .

For whatever it's worth a steel size B pellet at 4.5 gr delivers 4 ftlb at 40 yd with a start velocity of 1470 fps . 55 of 115 pellets will pass through 3/4 7 ply plywood at 40 yd , inside that I had 100% exit on Canada geese through feathers , breast bone , and backs . Obviously the meat and organs also . 18x the mass same , BC minus 100 fps , double dia , I would expect 12" of penetration in meat , broken bones on the on side . No clue what the ME is or RE is at 40 yd on a 70 gr .330 ball but I don't wanna be the catcher really .

[RMc]

Well the replies so far address muzzle velocity.

The matter in question is, minimum effective impact velocity, downrange - where pellet meets fur.

[Bmi48219]

The matter in question is, minimum effective impact velocity, downrange - where pellet meets fur.

How would you verify downrange velocity for reloaded buckshot rounds? LabRadar? Or borrowed chronograph?

[megasupermagnum]

You will not get an exact answer, but I'm guessing you already knew that. I'll take a crack at it, just for fun. I make no claim that the logic is correct. Generally I believe most people consider #4 buck to be the smallest size acceptable on deer in a modern shotgun, lets say 1250 fps. According to the linked round ball ballistic calculator, that puts it at 905 fps at 40 yards, and 852 fps at 50 yards. If I plug the same numbers into KYP shotshell ballistics, I get 874 fps at 40 with predicted 5.77" gel penetration, and 822 fps at 50 with predicted 5.39" gel penetration. If I then switch to 00 buck, to get the same predicted penetration, I'm getting an impact velocity of 638 fps for 5.77", and 600 fps for 5.39". To get those numbers at 40 and 50 yards, I also was at about 760 fps muzzle velocity for 00 buck.

So my best guess, is 625 fps is the minimum impact velocity you want for 00 buckshot. That's far beyond where you will get a good pattern.

[longbow]

Look here:

https://brassfetcher.com/Shotguns/Maximum%20Effective%20Range/Buckshot.html

If you scroll down you'll find a graph showing impact velocity vs penetration for #4, #1 and 00 buckshot.

Scroll down further and you will find another graph of velocity vs. distance.

That should help you determine what penetration you need to get vital organs so impact velocity required and then the distance you will see that velocity from a given muzzle velocity.

Obviously a large animal will require deeper penetration than a small one.

Longbow

[RMc]

Note: Original question referenced 00B to keep it simple.

[6pt-sika]

To each his own but I’d bet if I ran my buck 10 gauge loads over the Chrony most would be 1050 to 1150ish . I don’t usually shoot buckshot past thirty yards with my handloads so I’ve never had a problem with penetration . And for lack of a better word I’ve floor boarded quite a few with various sizes #3 all the way up to 00000 .

[doghunter]

I'm talking about muzzle velocity and you're asking about impact velocity.

I killed several deer with Remington 3.5" 00, some at 70+ yards before I knew how slow it was. The box says it's 1150 fps, but in my gun over a chrono, it runs about 1050 fps. Penetration was never inadequate. My handloads run about 1225-1250, and do it with a true 00 vs what Rem calls a 00 (.323).

So in short, I put a lot more emphasis on pattern density vs impact velocity.

[megasupermagnum]

I'm talking about muzzle velocity and you're asking about impact velocity.

I killed several deer with Remington 3.5" 00, some at 70+ yards before I knew how slow it was. The box says it's 1150 fps, but in my gun over a chrono, it runs about 1050 fps. Penetration was never inadequate. My handloads run about 1225-1250, and do it with a true 00 vs what Rem calls a 00 (.323).

So in short, I put a lot more emphasis on pattern density vs impact velocity.

Using KYP ballistics, if we assume 1050 fps was measured at 4ft, that is a muzzle velocity of about 1090 fps. .320" is 0 and .330" is 00, so I guess I'll use 0 for this. At 70 yards, that is right at 750 fps impact velocity. At 80 yards, 715 fps.

[Texas by God]

As an aside, I've never even heard of four ought or five ought- learning right now, it seems.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[megasupermagnum]

As an aside, I've never even heard of four ought or five ought- learning right now, it seems.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

It's more or less a reloader's invention of terms, being as 0, 00, and 000 exist. It's nothing more than an extra .020". 0000 is .380", 00000 is .400", 000000 would be .420" etc.

[Blood Trail]

I’ve killed quite a few hogs with #00 loads moving just over 1000 fps out to 50 yards.


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[Hogtamer]

If I am translating longbow’s charts right my load at about 1350 fps mv is about 850 fps at about 50 yds, which translates to 14” penetration in ballistic gel. All of that data reflects what I have witnessed in the field with deer and (mostly) hogs. Deer don’t stand a chance with 5-6 pellets through lung area at 50 yd. Hogs are thicker skin and more dense but penetration through lungs even without pass-through is fatal. All energy in pellets is expended in animal. In about a month I will be hunting for a week and hopefully show you an autopsy report or 2:

[Hogtamer]

If I am translating longbow’s charts right my load at about 1350 fps mv is about 850 fps at about 50 yds, which translates to 14” penetration in ballistic gel. All of that data reflects what I have witnessed in the field with deer and (mostly) hogs. Deer don’t stand a chance with 5-6 pellets through lung area at 50 yd. Hogs are thicker skin and more dense but penetration through lungs even without pass-through is fatal. All energy in pellets is expended in animal. In about a month I will be hunting for a week and hopefully show you an autopsy report or 2.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?382141-Pretty-in-Pink&highlight=Pretty+in+Pink

[RMc]

Over the years i have heard some rather "interesting observations" about buckshot.

Perhaps the oldest was several decades ago during the midday break between deer drives. One hunter was going on about how his shotgun "loved" those big 38 caliber 00B pellets.

When asked how he knew 00B pellets were 38 caliber, he replied that 00B from one of his shells just barely fit in a fired 38 Special case!
-----------------------------------------

Getting back to the topic at hand.

I'm sure most hunters on this forum have heard of some, (perhaps debatable), long range buckshot kills. Some are followed with guesstimates of say 900 fps remaining pellet velocity at 100 yards.

Let's turn to an online resource to see how far off this might be:

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/rbballistics/rbballistics.html

In this case a .33" lead ball would have to start close to a muzzle velocity of 2100 fps to retain 900 fps at 100 yards. A 1200 fps velocity loss. Wow.

Reducing the muzzle velocity to 1250 fps would show a remaining calculated velocity around 750 fps at 100 yards.

That remaining 750 fps is about the same as the muzzle velocity of a 31 caliber cap and ball revolver.

Interesting.

[megasupermagnum]

Well, all that really matters as far as lethality with buckshot is penetration. Do you not think a 31 cap and ball from point blank will go through the lungs of a deer? All the evidence I see shows far less will do it.

[6pt-sika]

Well, all that really matters as far as lethality with buckshot is penetration. Do you not think a 31 cap and ball from point blank will go through the lungs of a deer? All the evidence I see shows far less will do it.

I know a couple folks in central Virginia that swear by #4 buck as best for deer , personally I detest #4 buck , but to each his own . The smallest I load is #3 and have killed a couple deer with it and each size up to 00000 buck . Matter of fact I have home loaded #3 , #2 and #1 buck for the 20 gauge and 28 gauge . But I’ll not load #4’s !

[megasupermagnum]

Ok, well 4 buck being .240" is quite a bit smaller than a .320"ish ball for a 31 cap and ball. I've never tried it, so I can't say for sure, but I'm willing to lay quite a bit of money that if you put a 31 cap and ball with a 750 fps MV up to a deer's chest, that ball is going to at least be through the lungs, and probably up against the skin on the far side. And that's with pure lead, now imagine a hard buckshot ball.

[GhostHawk]

Longbow, great reading there. Thanks for posting.

[RMc]

Ok, well 4 buck being .240" is quite a bit smaller than a .320"ish ball for a 31 cap and ball. I've never tried it, so I can't say for sure, but I'm willing to lay quite a bit of money that if you put a 31 cap and ball with a 750 fps MV up to a deer's chest, that ball is going to at least be through the lungs, and probably up against the skin on the far side. And that's with pure lead, now imagine a hard buckshot ball.

Same would be true of a 25acp with its 50 grain bullet at 750 fps muzzle velocity, abeit with somewhat greater penetration.

[RMc]

Some further notes:

The round ball baliistics page noted earlier, allows weight adjustments for hard cast pellets.

The program is pre-set for 70F. for air density purposes. Colder temperatures result in greater air density. This results lower retained velocity and in turn larger pattern spreads. Changing the preset temp in the program can shed a light on temperature and retained velocity.

Interesting.

[RMc]

The comparison with a 31 cal. C&B and 25acp were mentioned simply to provide some non-shotgun perspective. A perspective to be translated to the distances at which multiple simultaneous vital hits can be delivered with buckshot.

We know from published gel tests that even 1150 fps "tactical" 00B loads can penetrate about 14 inches at 50 yards with an impact velocity in the 880 fps range.

Indeed, it has long been true that buckshot runs out of pattern before it runs out of pellet lethality. In an earlier time, that often meant just 30 yards with well made choke bore guns. Today, the best of factory rounds and especially with cutting edge handloads, sufficient pattern density can be had at double that distance.

As I have oft said of buckshot:
Minimum pattern equals maximum range.

What was a "throw shot" in the 1960s, can easily be within effective range today. However, there are still limits.

As earlier replys confirm, finding those limits can be readily acomplished with a bit of research and some serious pattern testing.

I just hope this approach is being passed down to the next generation of hunters carrying the big smoothbore into the deer woods.

[megasupermagnum]

Well, with 00 buckshot you are completely right. I'm fairly sure you can get an adequate pattern of 4 buck beyond what it will reliably penetrate to. I'm not sure it really matters much, because if you have a reasonable chance of a 50+ yard shot, you shouldn't be choosing buckshot in the first place.

[Geezer in NH]

Agree with that!