Milsurp that just won't shoot cast

[Eddie1971]

Does anybody have a milsurp that just won't shoot cast right? Out of a large collection I have 2 that continually lead the barrel no matter how fat I make the boolits - a Remington 1903 made in 1942 with original barrel and a 1916 Gewehr 98. I have gone up as fat as .316 with the 1903, and it leads the barrel yet when I load jacketed it will shoot 1.5 MOA. The Gewehr 98 I went as fat as .330 and same results. Both are loaded with powder coated and gas checked boolits and they have been slugged. Makes my head spin! Any ideas?

[358429]

What kind of gun powder and how much of it are you using?

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

[snipin101]

Yes, I have a Finn m39 that will not shoot cast. The rifle has been used and used hard before I got it. Looks kinda like they use it to drive there tent stakes down in the ground. Anyway, the barrel on mine shows some wear. I slugged the barrel and a it come out at .312. I have tried many cast loads sized to .314, 150gr to 220gr bullets. Will not group and will lead the barrel. Only thing I can figure is this. The throat in my rifle shows some wear for sure. My thinking is that when the bullet leaves the case and enters the throat, the rifling is for sure not as deep there and that one of two things are happening. One, the cast load hits the shallow rifling and since it can not grab the rifling it strips the bullet and it goes bad from there. Two, since the throat is worn and bigger then gasses from powder surrounds the bullet and kinda flash melts the exterior of the round or at least makes it hot enough to be soft and then when it hits good rifling it strips the bullet. I might be completely crazy but that is that only thing I can figure. Shoots 150gr ppu soft points with 51gr imr 4350 in 1 1/2 inches at 100 yards all day long. Cast loads of any kind, shotgun grouping at 50 yards.

Sent from my moto g power (2021) using Tapatalk

[35 Whelen]

I've tried cast in 3 or 4 1903/1903A3's and they all shoot them quite well (1 1/2" - 2" @ 100 yds.) and don't seem to be very particular about the bullet or load. We really need more details about your load.

35W

[Thumbcocker]

I had a No. 4 Lee enfield that had been FTR. Wouldn't shoot for beans with boolits. Got rid of it to a collector who liked it just fine. Years later I found out it was probably a bedding issue with the 2 piece stock.

[rintinglen]

I had a Chilean Mauser that wouldn't shoot cast without leading unless I loaded it very lightly. It wasn't all that great with jacketed either. The bore was pitted and dark, yet I have seen others as bad or worse that still shot OK. Never did figure out its problem. I sold it to a friend who used the action to build a .257 Roberts.

[iron brigade]

Try h4895 in the 8x57 and 'the load' in the 03..13 grains of red dot
I size .327 for my 8mm and .312 for my 03
Once you have the bullet size down start trying different powders. If the bores are pitted or leaded you will have your work cut out.

[georgerkahn]

Years back I bought a 1898 Krag just because a buddy had one... The price was right, and fellow who sold it to me had same problem as yours. I reckoned a super-barrel cleaning; running some moly through barrel; and try shooting the longest gas checked bullets would alleviate the problem. Basically it did, but I could not get it to hit a barn, as they say, from a rest!
You did not indicate your bullets have or have not gas checks. Again, that pretty much solved my problem, using longest bullets to still function in magazine.
I traded that rifle for something....
BEST!
geo

[John Boy]

For the … no shooters, no mention of bullet alloy used …

[Dusty Bannister]

Is anyone seating the bullet out far enough that it will actually engage the lands of the barrel when seated and crimped in the case? Older rifles often have eroded throats and really need a fat nosed bullet as well as large enough body to nearly seal the throat with the loaded round. Often a soft wax bullet lube will form a seal where powder coating or tumble lubed bullets does little to seal the hot gas behind the bullet. For really poor bore conditions a soft gas check from CF Ventures (sorry, no longer in business) helps seal the bore and bump up the bullet when fired.

If the barrel is a sewer pipe, and you powder coat an undersized bullet, you are not likely to find much success. Use the Cleaning Rod method to make sure the bullet can engage the lands and be crimped in the case or move on to a different bullet.

[Eddie1971]

I am using a powder coated and gas checked boolit in both. Like I mentioned in the 8mm I am using a .330 sized boolit and I went up to .316 in the 1903. The loads I am using work well in my other milsurps, mainly IMR 4895 and W748. I'm thinking the throats are scorched in both from wartime use. The 1903 really makes my head spin because it shoots so well with Jacketed. I also shoot cast in 2 other Springfields, a RI 1903 and SC 03A3, and they shoot cast real well. I also have numerous 8mm rifles that shoot cast great. The same thing was happening to me with my Mosin 91/30 until I got the NOE 316-299 Boolit and sized to .316 then it shot like a champ with cast. Maybe I better just put these 2 aside for cast use. I have too many others that shoot cast great.

[iron brigade]

Have you tried any other powders besides the two listed? Tried several different primer brands? You would be surprised at what a difference a primer makes. Those powders are on the slow side.748 is a ball powder. Never had any luck with ball powder and cast.
Just my two cents worth

[303Guy]

You might try a fibrous filler. Wheat bran comes to mind. I sieve mine to make it easier to get into the case. It might form a sealing wad behind the boolit. One can only try. It needs to be slightly compressed under the boolit. Never use it with powders like Clays! Bad things happen. Use with medium rifle powders (I use it with H4227 in a Brit with no issues).

I have found that sometimes cast boolits cant over on firing, even when the throat fit is good. It seems to be caused by to much initial resistance on the boolit nose. I overcame the problem in one rifle by using a shorter boolit with enough jump.

Here one can see the canting effect. See how one side of the base is rounded while the other is sharp. That leaves a lot of lead in the bore.

https://i.postimg.cc/cHhjmr9f/DSCF3382-1.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Another problem I've encountered is boolit riveting between the case mouth and chamber end or chamfer. A stronger alloy, gentler launch and a boolit nose that can enter the leade easily stops that. I must say though that I haven't seen it with bore ride grease groove boolits, only with smooth sides. Although I have one sample that looks like the grease grooves collapsed. It's hard to tell because of impact damage. I had assumed that happened on impact.

I don't have a photo of a riveted boolit on hand but I do have indirect evidence. This;

https://i.postimg.cc/j53c2N33/DSCF3310-1.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

That paper patch ring is from the boolit riveting and cutting the patch between the case mouth and the throat taper. The ring stayed in the chamber. The boolit had a corresponding riveted area that had been sized down to bore and groove. When I find that photo I'll add it.

Ok, that boolit was destroyed on impact but here is another.

https://i.postimg.cc/BQKpZjTN/DSCF3365-1.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[303Guy]

Here is a classic example of boolit canting.

https://i.postimg.cc/VksFqKyZ/DSCF3393.jpg (https://postimages.org/)https://i.postimg.cc/63ZVWSRq/DSCF3394.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

All those missing drive bands on one side of the boolit was smeared in the bore!

The cause as far as I can make out is the boolit nose sitting up against the rifling leade and this in a two-groove No4. I only learned of this phenomena very recently. It probably doesn't happen very often.

My very worn throat and bore Lee Enfield carbine was doing this too. I ended up getting the shorter and undersized boolit to traverse the bore pretty concentrically, just today. I got it right with a different boolit yesterday which is even shorter and lighter.

I thought with jump and nothing to support the boolit it would cant, but it doesn't. The boolit (which is patched) is only slightly loose in an unsized neck, so I size the neck just enough to hold the boolit so there isn't much clearance on firing. It does mean i have to use a lighter boolit. With a bore-ride that fits the bore at the breach end should be fine.

So Eddie, by making your boolit larger, you may have been making the problem worse, if it happens to be this issue in your case which it might well not be.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Maybe there is some severe copper fouling in the barrel?

[longbow]

I found that ACWW boolits were skidding a bit in the rifling in two Lee Enfields I have so allowing gas leakage/gas cutting so leading with anything but very mild loads.

Recovered boolits showed wider grooves than lands on the boolits where lands and grooves are equal width in the barrel.

The gas cutting shows up as shiny smooth streaks at the edge of the grooves on the boolits.

These are both 5 groove barrels. One a No 4 MK1 and the other a No. 5.

Boolits are NOE 316299 with gas check.

I figured the 1:10" twist rifling was fast enough that ACWW was swaging a bit due to rotational inertia as it entered the bore so tried oven heat treating and water quenching. That solved the issue for me.

These are bullets sized to 0.315" in barrels with groove diameter of 0.314".

Also, what 303guy said about filler. I have also found filler to help some loads though I use COW per David Southall's recommendation in 303british.com. David Douthall also commented that he uses spherical shot buffer in one gun that wouldn't shoot well without it. COW didn't work in that gun.

Look at recovered boolits and they will likely tell you a story!

YMMV

Longbow

[Dusty Bannister]

These are both 5 groove barrels. One a No 4 MK1 and the other a No. 5.
These are bullets sized to 0.315" in barrels with groove diameter of 0.314".


Is this the actual groove diameter as measured with the correct V block and micrometer? If just using the micrometer on the odd number of groove bullet, you are probably a little small from the actual measurement. Small bullets will suffer from gas cutting.

[longbow]

You're right, I'll plead guilty to not having the vee blocks. I used shimstock wrapped around the boolit then mic'd it and subtracted shimstock thickness.

I also did a "pound cast" to get throat diameter.

Best I could measure was approx. 0.314" groove and 0.315" throat.

What I do know is that boolits cast to 0.312"/0.313" using a Lyman 314299 mould leaded and gave poor accuracy with pretty much any load where boolits cast to 0.316" sized to 0.315" (NOE 316299) were only an issue if loaded beyond mid range powder charges.

I've shot the 0.315" boolits in four Lee Enfields with good results. Mostly I have been using moderate loads with gas checked ACWW boolits with good results. The "skidding" occured when I used a bit higher powder charge so I tried oven heat treating which solved the issue for that load.

Something else I found was that my RCBS dies neck sized to suit 0.312" bullets so necks were tight on 0.315" boolits and I found the driving bands were being sized down by the tight neck when boolits were seated. To solve that I made a larger expander button, which worked but the brass still gets worked a lot so i bought a Lee collet die and made a mandrel for it to give me 0.313" neck I.D.

Longbow

[bedbugbilly]

This probably won't be worth much as it sounds like you are shooting full power loads.

I have a 1905 Danzig GEW98. The bore slugs right at .323. I have a special run NOE .326 - 130 grain plain based bullet mold - I lube in Alox/Paste wax and shoot "as cast" over 8.0 grains of Red Dot. It shoots extremely well at 50 and 100 yards if my old eyes do their job. I also have a RCBS mold for the 8mm Nambu - they drop right at .323 and 102 grains IIRC. Alox/paste wax and over Red Dot they shoot well too. I have tried one of the Lee gas checked molds - used a gas check and tumbled lubed over Red Dot and they shoot OK but not as well as my NOE 130 grain which resembles a Ranch Dog style. Keep in mind these are reduced loads but I have never had an issue with any leading.

You don't mention your load but I would wonder what would happen if you slowed them down a bit? I'm guessing that you have tried a lot of different things and combinations. I don't have a chrony, but with the Mauser, I would use the data in the Lyman CBHB - start with a plain based boolit and make up loads of Red Dot from Minimum to Maximum and try them with a crony and see if you get leading and if you do, at what velocity. Then switch to the same boolit only gas checked and see what happens. If your bore is .323, size them .002 oversize. If you don't get leading, then you could try a different powder that would give you a higher velocity at Maximum and see what happens.

A little experimenting may be able to tell you a lot about what velocity your particular rifle starts to get a leading issue and with what alloy?

Good luck!

[Alferd Packer]

Have you tried paper patching those bullets?
Also it's a good idea to slug the bore with a few squib loads and catch the bullets in a thick wad of rags and paper in a box at close range.
Also trying some short range loads using 3 grains of bullseye or another fast powder and try for a small group and work your way up a little.Those loads are a lot of fun at 25 yards.
You can learn more about shooting your rifle with cast bullet loads that way.
I would even try some round ball loads for plinking and short range fun.

[garrisonjoe]

Alloy (and any hardness treatment) should match the chamber pressure of your load.
Velocity matters, for stabilization and lubrication.
Your load makes a ton of difference.
Bullet diameter is often best with body one-thousandths over groove diameter and nose close to bore diameter (especially important with a long nose in a bore-riding bullet).


And you don't tell us much about these important characteristics. So, every thing here is really a wild guess.

A moderately fast rifle powder with a hardened wheel weight bullet (16-20 Brinnell hardness) that is heavy for caliber (compared to jacketed) loaded to around 1900 FPS is where I start with most of my mil-surps, including 1903 Springfield and several 8mm Mauser 98 designs.

good luck, garrisonjoe

[Good Cheer]

And sometimes blowing a lot unburned ball powder out on the ground is just the thing to whoosh those wheel weights like Clark Kent flying out of a phone booth.

[gwpercle]

Three things that I look for right off the bat .
1.) Barrel must be smooth , not pitted , not rough and not dark .
2.) All the metal fouling must be removed ... all of it , the old cupro-nickle jacket fouling is the worst .
If you have too ... lap the barrel untill it is smooth and clean .
3.) The Crown ... usually every old military rifle could stand a re-crowning , they may be lop sided and or have dings that ruin accuracy . Check the first inch of rifling ... if worn from cleaning from the muzzle , consider cutting the barrel back two inches .

I have a model 95 (or 96) 7 x 57 Spanish Mauser that I lapped the sewer pipe barrel , cut the old barrel back to 20 inches , had it re-crowned and new Williams open sporter sights mounted ... that turned it into a decent shooter ... not the best with cast boolits but good enough to take Hogs and Deer and would shoot old 175 grain RN Remington factory ammo surprisingly well .
Gary

[Eddie1971]

Three things that I look for right off the bat .
1.) Barrel must be smooth , not pitted , not rough and not dark .
2.) All the metal fouling must be removed ... all of it , the old cupro-nickle jacket fouling is the worst .
If you have too ... lap the barrel untill it is smooth and clean .
3.) The Crown ... usually every old military rifle could stand a re-crowning , they may be lop sided and or have dings that ruin accuracy . Check the first inch of rifling ... if worn from cleaning from the muzzle , consider cutting the barrel back two inches .

I have a model 95 (or 96) 7 x 57 Spanish Mauser that I lapped the sewer pipe barrel , cut the old barrel back to 20 inches , had it re-crowned and new Williams open sporter sights mounted ... that turned it into a decent shooter ... not the best with cast boolits but good enough to take Hogs and Deer and would shoot old 175 grain RN Remington factory ammo surprisingly well .
Gary

Funny think about point #1 on your list is that I have a few rifles with dark bores and they still shoot cast great.

[Alferd Packer]

Some shoot cast bullets great right from the start.Then there's one that needs a larger diameter bullet or a longer or shorter seating depth.

Experiment and keep a little record of what you try.
I wish you success!
Try everything .