Need help diagnosing misfires with my muzzle loader.

[Tripplebeards]

So this is my first percussion so please take it easy on me…I’m still learning.

I wasn’t impressed with the accuracy or trigger with my 50 cal traditions pioneer muzzleloader when I went to the range for the first time with it a few days ago. The trigger pull was a hair over 10 pounds. I took the gun apart probably a good six times working the trigger down to 2 pounds. I went to retest it this morning and the hammer dropped just fine but it would not ignite my number 11 Winchester caps. I ended up taking the gun apart at the range and checking everything. I thought that maybe the action screws holding the side plates in place were too tight and binding. I did notice the front screw kind of sucking the wood in the other day and the front screw sitting proud. After I put it back together at the range I left the front side plate screw a little loose. I fired off 2 test caps in a row so I started to group test it. I still had quite a few caps getting hit by the hammer and flattened but the caps would not ignite. I noticed if I pushed my caps flush on the nipple they would not go off but if I left them a little proud they would go off most the time. FYI, I did clean the heck out of my gun before I headed to the range this morning as well. So the barrel, breach, and nipple were clean and clear to start with. The one thing I did notice when I put the barrel back into the stock yesterday after the final trigger adjustment that for some odd reason the barrel sat forward from the side plates. I removed and reinstalled but for some reason it didn’t seem to line up perfectly IMO….I am wondering if the nipple wasn’t aligned up perfectly with the hammer? This morning after going through the gun I did have a few caps pop off and not ignite the powder today as well. It was pretty humid out so I don’t know if that had anything to do with the caps not igniting as well? When I adjusted the trigger yesterday all I did was change the angle of the tumbler catches and polish it along with the sear. With all the issues I was having the did shoot a lot better….when it actually fired….

4 shot group at 50 yards…

https://i.imgur.com/osOFD6P.jpg

And three shot group at 75 yard. It dropped 4” low and measured 3”…

https://i.imgur.com/6sYkp7m.jpg

The little holes were from someone shooting a 22lr at my targets while I was group testing my gun.


I was using 60 grains of some old Pyrodex RS that came with the gun. I used TC bore buttons and a Lee REAL 320 boolit I casted and PCd. I used zero lube and had zero leading. The PC job wasn’t the prettiest but it did the job.

https://i.imgur.com/tKeW2W8.jpg


The gun…

https://i.imgur.com/Gvl3i0N.jpg


So when I got home from the range I completely disassembled the rifle for cleaning. The things I found that could have caused the FTF issues….

The nipple some how was loose. I tightened it after cleaning so that was a mystery to me. It also spent look the greatest. I’m wondering if the hammer has beat it so short that there is not enough striking power to ignite primers consistently? It is also bent….


https://i.imgur.com/PzanNNV.jpg

Also the tumbler and sear were grinding on the inside of the side plate. I stoned and polished all the ruff edges and the inside of the plate so everything is now smooth to the touch again. I am wondering if the barrel was not centered and rubbing against the sear and tumbler? This is what I found before I stoned and polished everything back to smooth surfaces.

https://i.imgur.com/CD4hK3z.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/TGPqCic.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Kh2r2Oj.jpg


After stoning and polishing all the surfaces above I reassembled. The barrel seemed to fit into the barrel lug a lot easier and and line up with hammer like it should have.

https://i.imgur.com/Q6SQafi.jpg


So….sorry for the long winded story but just trying to give all the details. Any suggestions on what I did wrong to cause the caps not to properly invite so I learn from my mistake??? I’m guessing I am probably alright now other than I need a new nipple???

[fastdadio]

That nipple is beyond trashed. Start there. Fresh powder would help, you have no idea how old it is, or how it was stored.. As far as the hammer being bent, I doubt it. My Traditions Buck Skinner hammer looks bent, but is designed offset to clear a scope. Is your barrel tapped for a scope mount? That would be your first clue as to hammer design. Nice gun. Once you get it dialed in, you're going love it. My Buck Skinner has downed more venison the all my other guns combined.

[Tripplebeards]

Not drilled and tapped…wish it was. The caps were purchased new a few months back. The 1995 gun looked like new when I bought it in March. I’ll have to google what nipples I need and and get a few ordered. How long does a nipple usually last? I’ve owned 3 inlines over the decades but never a percussion.

[Bullet Caster]

I think you have already solved yer problem. Replace that nipple and you should be good to go. I don't have that problem. Flintlock. Bullet Caster

[bedbugbilly]

Don't take this wrong, but the locks are not the highest quality locks - but they will work. It sounds like you have been removing and reinstalling the lock quite a bit. The first thing I would take a look at is the clearance in the lock mortise in relationship to any of the moving parts - i.e. springs, tumbler and sear. Not familiar with your model - but how tight are you tightening the lock bolts? i.e. the bolts that hold the lock in place. These don't require being "reefed" on - gently snug in place as if the inlay of the lock or the mortise is too tight without enough clearance - it ca cause binding and thus reduce hammer fall. Put the lock together - lightly coat all the moving parts with inletting paste - or even lipstick or a light coat of heavy grease - reinstall the lock and carefully cock and unlock the lock a couple of times - remove it and if there is not enough clearance in one or more areas of the lock mortise, the inlet past, lipstick or heavy grease will show you where any binding is taking place.

The next thing is to check the hammer cup and nipple alignment - the hammer cup should be hitting the nipple squarely and across the entire top of the nipple - not on just one edge of the nipple top. This can be determined with a small piece of carbon paper - much like a Dentist checks a tooth after filling it.

If when you pull the trigger - the cap does not go off - you either have an issue with binding of moving parts in the lock mortise - an issue with a weak mainspring or an issue with hammer cup/nipple alignment. If it is the original nipple that came with the rifle or kit - make sure the cone is the correct size for your caps and that the cap fits and seats down all the way - to work properly, a cap needs to sit all the way down and flat on the top of the nipple cone in order to ignite when the hammer hits - if not, the hammer will often drive the cap down tight to the cone top but it will require a second strike to snap the cap. If everything checks out but you still have an issue - get a decent replacement nipple and replace the old one.

Good luck!

[bimus]

Thank you for the pictures . You might check the Hammer for fired caps that got beat in to the cup it is amazing how many will fit in there and yet look ok or not even there.

[Tripplebeards]

I had probably a dozen caps piled on each other in the hammer cup I peeled out after the first range session. I know it’s a cheaper muzzle loader. I picked it up in a group buy for practically nothing. I did tighten the screws pretty hard which probably got the issue started. I did grease all the trigger parts and plate after I adjusted the trigger down. That’s how I saw the issue I was having. This was photo before I removed the parts and grease…


https://i.imgur.com/6UKWfRv.jpg

I ordered a pair of replacement nipples off Amazon…now I just have to wait. When I first took the rifle out a few days ago it popped caps every time but I must have had a clogged nipple a few times it didn’t ignite the powder charge. So IMO I created what ever issue I currently have by taking it apart and tinkering with it.

[charlie b]

I use the AMPCO nipples for my Lyman. I always have a new spare just in case. They last between 20 and 50 shots when I am shooting the heavier bullets and charges. When going lighter (350gn bullet, 60-70gn powder) they might go 100 shots.

Yes, after each shot check the hammer to make sure the previous cap is not stuck in there. And cap fit, as stated above, is important. There are size 10 and 11 caps out there that look the same. It is better to have a looser cap than one that is too tight to seat properly.

[Tripplebeards]

Thanks for the heads up. That nipple was used and I put over a 100 rounds through it in the last two shooting sessions. I went through a 100 pack of TC bore buttons, shot a few without buttons, and opened another pack this morning and used a good 10 of them. So I would say a good 125 plus rounds in 3 days.

BTW you can see a cap stuck in my hammer with the greased up photo.

[1Hawkeye]

The problem was most likely the cap end of the nipple not allowing the cap to seat properly. Spanish and Italian steels are soft and the end of the cones round over after so many impacts from the hammer. The easy and fast cure is to replace the nipple with an ampco or stainless but if you don't have one or can't wait for the mailman to deliver the new one you can recut the end of the old one by chucking the threaded end in a drill and run it at a slight angle on a file removing the flattened over tip and putting a bevel on it from the side of the cone towards the flash hole. Remember you don't want to shorten the cone you just want to remove the flattened over burr and give it a fresh striking surface.

[725]

Yep. Hammer / nipple geometry needs to be right for consistent ignition. Also, nipple needs to receive the cap and seat all the way down. Question: Did you ever pull the trigger and have the cap fail to fire, only to just recock it and have it function with the second strike? If so, the first hammer fall seated the primer and the second hammer strike caused the ignition. Telltale indicator of the nipple mishapened by prior use or dry fires.

[indian joe]

Thank you for the pictures . You might check the Hammer for fired caps that got beat in to the cup it is amazing how many will fit in there and yet look ok or not even there.

this too - check that hammer cup after every shot

[indian joe]

I had probably a dozen caps piled on each other in the hammer cup I peeled out after the first range session. I know it’s a cheaper muzzle loader. I picked it up in a group buy for practically nothing. I did tighten the screws pretty hard which probably got the issue started. I did grease all the trigger parts and plate after I adjusted the trigger down. That’s how I saw the issue I was having. This was photo before I removed the parts and grease…


https://i.imgur.com/6UKWfRv.jpg

I ordered a pair of replacement nipples off Amazon…now I just have to wait. When I first took the rifle out a few days ago it popped caps every time but I must have had a clogged nipple a few times it didn’t ignite the powder charge. So IMO I created what ever issue I currently have by taking it apart and tinkering with it.

Its a cheap junky lock - yeah it will work (for a while) - if you could find an old CVA lock with the bridle inside to support the tumbler - would be a major improvement - you are shooting it ok - noobie with an open sighted gun thats not working like it should - that 75 yard group will get it done anytime

[Tar Heel]

Bedbugbilly's comments are spot on. I offer two comments:
1. Get to know Track of The Wolf (TOW) well for supplies and parts - especially replacement nipples.
2. If that is you boogering up all the screws with a regular screwdriver, please for the love of God, get yourself a set of gunsmith screwdrivers.

From reading your initial post, my first thought was that the hammer is falling "offset" to the nipple. It of course should hit the nipple true and centered. Lock screw tension can deform the lock plate enough to pull the nipple off center so go easy when reinstalling the lock into its mortise.

Enjoy your percussion rifle!

[Edward]

Look around for a TC Renegade and most of your problems vanish ,Brownells has a great set of (gunsmith drivers) !/Ed

[Tripplebeards]

Yep. Hammer / nipple geometry needs to be right for consistent ignition. Also, nipple needs to receive the cap and seat all the way down. Question: Did you ever pull the trigger and have the cap fail to fire, only to just recock it and have it function with the second strike? If so, the first hammer fall seated the primer and the second hammer strike caused the ignition. Telltale indicator of the nipple mishapened by prior use or dry fires.


I kept re cocking 2 to 3 times in a row and the caps would not fire. The caps were flattened by the hammer and had “road rash” from getting hit. I’m guessing they weren’t getting hit hard enough?



The screw that is by the nipple was already buggered up when I received it. It was seized in place. I am happy to say I DID get it out. I have already removed it a few times at the range to trickle a few grains of powder in the hole.




I have a TC Omega that is one of the most accurate firearms I’ve ever owned. It will shoot a three shot group all in one hole at 100 yards. The last time I checked it before an elk hunt it shot a 1 5/8” 200 yard group, a 4” 250 yard group, a 4” 300 yard group, ,,,and opened up to 12” on center at 350 yards. I would like to get a hawken and or renegade some day. Might look into trading off some of my restored rimfires and/or sporter lee enfield for some. Traditions to me have always been price leader, economy rifles and imo a good learning percussion rifle to get started on. I picked it up with 7 other guns, close to 50 pounds of powder, a little over 2500 projectiles, and reloading supplies…all for $540. I sold two items for more that what I spent so the rifle is now basically free to me. I didn’t expect very good accuracy out of it since the traditions I’ve owned in the past wouldn’t hit the broad side of a barn. So I happy to see it cluster rounds at 50 yards.

[Sasquatch-1]

The other problem is you may have gotten a bad batch of caps. What brand were they?

[Tripplebeards]

Winchester #11 magnum black powder caps. After I took my gun apart at the range and reassembled almost all the ones that wouldn’t ignite fired off. I am leaning towards the nipple wasn’t aligned up properly with the hammer. I am trying to figure out why it happened and how to prevent it in the future. I would have thought when the barrel slides under the barrel lock it would have slid perfectly into place.

BTW…I appreciate all the help and replies.


I did just watch a video from gunsamerica saying to drop a couple of grains of powder in the screw hole under the nipple when hunting for a more reliable ignition. I would assume that’s a given with percussion guns when hunting?

[elk hunter]

I've never used pyrodex because it seems to be much harder to light off than real black powder. A friend uses it and has had numerous miss fires when elk hunting. The cap will go off but not the pyrondex. I have offered to give him some real black powder but he insists on using pyrodex. I won't say he is stubborn, just determined. Personally I like eating elk not just chasing them around making popping noises. None of the local serious ML hunters that I know use it because they say it's hard to light. Now I'm sure any number of you folks have had nothing but delightful experience with pyrodex, good for you. I'll just continue to use the real thing.

[Tripplebeards]

I ended up with a pound each of the following that came with the gun... Dupont FG, ffg, fffg. Also a one pound tin of pyrodex and a plastic bottle of Pyrodex RS. I probably used 2/3's of the RS the last two days. Would ffg or fffg dupont be an closer equivalent burn rate of the RS? The FG I use in my 10 gauge. I can tell you the RS burns extremely dirty.

[indian joe]

Winchester #11 magnum black powder caps. After I took my gun apart at the range and reassembled almost all the ones that wouldn’t ignite fired off. I am leaning towards the nipple wasn’t aligned up properly with the hammer. I am trying to figure out why it happened and how to prevent it in the future. I would have thought when the barrel slides under the barrel lock it would have slid perfectly into place.

BTW…I appreciate all the help and replies.


I did just watch a video from gunsamerica saying to drop a couple of grains of powder in the screw hole under the nipple when hunting for a more reliable ignition. I would assume that’s a given with percussion guns when hunting?

Thats a longwinded workaround for not loading it properly in the first place - when you drop the powder charge down - hold the gun upright and give it several slaps on the cheek with open hand right close to the lockplate - that will settle the charge into the powder channel close to the nipple so you get reliable ignition - dont do it and occasionally the powder will bridge and not run in there (its only a small hole (1/8"? or so)
When you clean it take the barrel off, remove the cleanout screw and pump water through it vigorously - make sure that ignition channel is clean as a whistle.
If this is an older Traditions with a 66 twist barrel? what the cheap lock lacks they gave back in spades with the barrels - patched round ball that thing should shoot as good as most custom guns

[Tripplebeards]

I started out slapping the gun butt stock but forgot during my range sessions.

Mine is a 1/32 twist. I was going to try sabots but only took the factory plastic ram rod with me. After wrestling the first TC 300 grain shock wave down the barrel I stopped. If I kept loading them I surely would end up braking my cheap plastic rod. When I get the new nipples from Amazon I’ll take along my TC Omega’s metal rod next time and try saboted boolits.

[Sasquatch-1]

I would have thought when the barrel slides under the barrel lock it would have slid perfectly into place.


I have had this problem with an old Tradition's Hawken built in the mid to late 70's. Sometimes a little tap on the muzzle with a piece wood seats it where it should be, but usually a little hand pressure is enough.

[Tripplebeards]

Just remembered I am out of #11 caps as well. I’ll have to keep my fingers crossed I can find some locally.

[indian joe]

I have had this problem with an old Tradition's Hawken built in the mid to late 70's. Sometimes a little tap on the muzzle with a piece wood seats it where it should be, but usually a little hand pressure is enough.

Common with old CVA's too if the lock plate is a neat fit to the nipple its a little tricky getting the barrel back - take the lock out otherwise you are putting pressure on something as you cam the barrel back into place.

[megasupermagnum]

It looks like others said quite a bit, so I'll go over what I see as briefly as I can.

The nipple is causing an issue. It's not uncommon at all for them not to be lined up 100% with the hammer face, and yours looks like it is off level slightly. It's no big deal, but it will probably continue to smoosh the top of the nipple like that. There is a quick and easy fix. All you need is a fine file or stone, and get that burr off of there. As long as the cap can seat all the way down so the priming is sitting on top of the nipple, it will go off. Chances are good that burr was keeping it cockeyed, and that was absorbing just enough energy to keep them from always going off. A very strong hammer spring can sometimes overcome this, but making sure the cap is seated will for sure work. Along with taking the burr off, or replacing the nipple if you want, you can also use your hammer to seat the caps. When you install a cap, lower the hammer lightly onto the cap, then use your thumb to add a little bit of pressure to seat the cap. I always do that when hunting, but not always when target shooting. The caps not going off after a few hits is not uncommon. I believe it is because the priming gets broken up after the first hit, so it doesn't work after that.

It is also possible your lock is a problem. For months I fought a Ruger Old Army that for seemingly no reason at all was about 50% reliable. I tried stronger springs, multiple sets of nipples, and all the different caps I could find. Finally one day I noticed just the slightest rub mark on the side of the hammer where it went through the frame. You couldn't even feel anything when lowering the hammer by hand. I sent it to Ruger where they installed a new hammer. It no longer rubs the frame, and just that small difference made it 100% reliable. I'm not familiar enough with Traditions to give any real help with fixing the lock or barrel fit.

You ask about putting powder under the nipple for hunting. What you should find is that after loading, if you pull the nipple, there should already be powder there. It won't be packed in tight, but there should be a few grains there. If not, something is blocking it. When hunting I make sure and lightly bump the side with my palm to settle powder in there. When target shooting I often forget, and it makes no difference. What does make a difference is getting fouling into that channel. I usually do this by accidentally swabbing a bunch of gunk into it. I like to swab after every shot, or not at all.

For powder, Pyrodex RS (rifle/shotgun) is like FFg blackpowder. Pyrodex P (pistol) is like FFFg. This is one area I think you can forget what a lot of people tell you, and try all the powders for yourself. There's all kinds of opinions out there. Don't overlook that Fg Dupont. My rifle loves Fg Goex. Real blackpowder ignites easiest, and is the most reliable powder you can use in a muzzle loader.

[indian joe]

Some of these cheaper guns had the alignment not quite right between hammer face and nipple top . I keep a cheap injector spanner (thats a ring spanner with a slot cut in it so it can be slipped over an injector pipe to tighten the fitting down) one of those that fits the nipple drum neat and you leave the nipple screwed in the drum for leverage - then can turn the drum just a little to get the hammer face to strike dead square to the top of the nipple - from the shape of the burred nipple, this gun needs that done.

That lock is a cheapie! CVA (and traditions later) put these on (some of) their single trigger guns, there is no bridle internally to support the tumbler so it relies on the hole through the lock plate and the flat surfaces rubbing, to keep things square. (kinda like a long shaft with only one bearing to support it) If you could scrounge up a spare lock with a bridle to replace it things would work much better.

If you wanna look theres a thread above titled "my fix for a CVA trigger" - if you go to post 32 you can see a pic of your lock (no bridle) and a CVA lock with bridle - they are interchangeable fit to the stock inlet and trigger geometry. Also shows what to do if you bend the sear nose on yours down the track .

[Eddie2002]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that the upper lock screw that goes through the lock plate behind the hammer could be just a little long and dragging on the hammer when fired. I've found that it happens pretty regular with both kit and factory assembled rifles and pistols. I've been shooting an older CVA Hawken with a misaligned nipple for years and have found dressing the tip with a fine file can really help ignition. A bad batch of caps can be a real pain, just spent a day at the range with some older caps that wouldn't fire, just squish the compound into the flash hole which then needed to be picked out. It made me wonder if the lock was malfunctioning.

[Tripplebeards]

I ordered a pair of Traditions brand nipples off Amazon for $13 shipped. Four days later they had the exact same ones listed for $5.25 per pair. I recorded the cheaper ones. The $5.25 pair showed today and more expensive ones have been lost in the mail going on 5 days now. Lol I’ll have to get a new one put on and get out to test.

[GregLaROCHE]

The hammer needs to strike the nipple squarely. From the looks of the wear on your nipple it is not. The hammer can be heated and bent to the correct striking angle.

[Edward]

Not drilled and tapped…wish it was. The caps were purchased new a few months back. The 1995 gun looked like new when I bought it in March. I’ll have to google what nipples I need and and get a few ordered. How long does a nipple usually last? I’ve owned 3 inlines over the decades but never a percussion.

Sometimes as little as 20-30 shots depending on your nipple ,or Buffalo arms (BACO) sells a platinum nipple for $60.00 that the owner shoots in competition who has 1000 + /Ed

[Tripplebeards]

New nipples showed. I put a napkin over my nipple and dry fired it. I could tell it hit the front 3rd of the nipple only. I am sure it doesn't hit perfectly flat. I don't have the tools to bend the hammer so it will have to do. I ignited 3 caps in a row after the napkin test. Here is the first cap after I fired it. By the looks of the nipple it looked like it hit flat???

https://i.imgur.com/wkjRoYL.jpg

The old nipple had a chunk of a #11 cap inside of it completley blocking the hole. No wonder the caps were igniting but the gun wouldn't fire the last few rounds. Poor cleaning practices on my part. Lesson learned. Thanks for the help!

[LAGS]

If the hammer is hitting on the Front Third of the nipple.
You might try spinning the drum on your barrel just a tiny bit to get things to square up.
You said a plugged nipple was you problem.
But you might take just a little bit of time Fine Tuning your lock.
Who knows , Did the striking angle cause that old cap to shear off into the nipple hole and plug it up

[Tripplebeards]

It was one of my problems. I also didn’t have the barrel all the way seated into the barrel lug which IMO was the cause of not igniting the #11 caps. The hammer was not lined up with the nipple. I took the barrel out of the action a few times during my shooting session to inspect. When the caps did fire towards the tail end of my 100 plus round session the powder wasn't igniting. So I had a few issues going on.

I am tell from the above photo that the complete top of my new nipple was contacted by the hammer and flattened. It wasn’t like that when I tried with a napkin so I’m wondering if the extra thickness of the #11 cap helped even the blow?

[LAGS]

Sounds like you looked things over pretty good so far.
Good luck with your next shooting session

[Tripplebeards]

Fingers crossed, thanks

[GregLaROCHE]

It’s not that hard to correct the geometry of the hammer. You just need a torch with a small flame. Heat it red and bend it a little until it contacts squarely. Don’t quench it.