Recoil difference between the .40 S&W and 9mm in Glock mid-sized pistols.

[Idaho45guy]

Kept hearing that the .40 S&W is just too snappy, but I'd never really noticed much difference between it and my 9mm pistols. Of course, I wasn't looking for it and am not all that recoil sensitive, yet. Another thing to look forward to as we age is our hands starting to get a bit worn out and become sensitive to things like increases in recoil.

So I made a video with three different Glocks to see how much each pistol jumped.

What do you know? The .40 S&W is a bit snappier than the 9mm...

Go to around the 8:00 mark to avoid all my blathering about not being an expert and my background.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiq3_GP2aBA&t=541s

[Johnch]

Years ago I bought a Glock 22
I used it to shoot shoot steel knock down targets
It made major , where 9 mm didn't unless you were loading at LEAST +P
I had no problems with the recoil
But I knew the recoil was More than the 9 mm

Later I bought a Glock 17 extended / threaded barrel
It drops right in and works
I plan on adding a Suppressor as the muzzle blast causes headaches for me

I still feel the 40 S&W is a better 1 shot fight stopper over the 9mm
But if the extra recoil of the 40 S&W causes the shooter problems
I feel with proper loads the 9mm will do the job with less recoil

John

[9.3X62AL]

Just my opinion, to take or leave as you see fit--the 40 S&W in any given pistol platform will have a bit more felt recoil than will its 9mm cousin-in-law. That's just the Laws of Physics in action, and those statutes offer no plea bargains.

Understand my biases and viewpoints--I am a gun enthusiast, reloader, bullet caster, and was a LE range trainer for a large portion of my career. Most of the folks on this board have at least some if not all of those element on board as well. Most of us that post here are far better-versed in pistolcraft than are most LE recruits at the start of their careers (usually in an academy setting). I came into the career in late 1977, and even back then I was an unusual recruit in that I was thoroughly familiar and comfortable with sidearms and long guns, and had been reloading shotshells and metallic ammo for some time. In current times, such a person (barring armed services veterans) is quite rare among recruits.

In recent times--say, the past 5-8 years--there has been a steady buzz about relegation of the 40 S&W in favor of the 9mm for LE issuance and service. All manner of justifications get trumpeted for moving in that direction, but when you boil down all of the ingredients in this ghoulash of stats and charts, it boils down to cost factor. 9mm is cheaper to buy per round than is 40 S&W or 45 ACP. There are more "failures to qualify" with 40 S&W and 45 ACP than with 9mm (or 38 Special), a lot of which can be explained by (but not admitted to) as insufficient initial academy range training and/or deficient follow-up/in-service refresher training. Again, cost factor (salaries) rears its head. From the bean counter's point-of-view, the 9mm is cheaper to issue and use on a number of fronts.

Bean counters almost never get shot at for for a living. Their input on weapons/ammo selections should be seen and not heard, and that is as politely as I can express that feeling. (Stay in your cubicle). My shop has authorized the 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP since 1994. Almost no one carries the 9mm as a primary arm, 40 S&W and 45 ACP are the choices. Both work very well, and good hits make decisive stops. Serious stopping sidearms have a numeral "4" in their caliber designation, wheelgun or bottom-feeder.

Glock 23 in summer, SIG P-220 in cooler weather, if you're curious.

[Catshooter]

Al,

You're 110% correct. Cost, recoil sensitivity and very last capacity. I mean, the FBI endorses the 9. The FBI? Who in the wide world would listen to that pile of woke folk? Some of their very important "technology" has been proven to be a swarm of lies in the last few years, so why believe 'em now?

Yep, it needs a "4" in there.


Cat

[Bigslug]

If you crunch the numbers, the 9mm is running at something like 30-40% less recoil, depending on the load.

But as a force-over-time thing, the .40 definitely hits your hand with more, faster. When I had to sequentially test fire a bunch of Gen 3 Glocks, or have a long range day with one, there was definitely a sense of tennis elbow creeping in. Working with new or less dedicated shooters to get them proficient with it frequently felt like a death march for both of us. Saw lots of broken small parts, minor malfunctions, and engaged in a lot of early spring changes that a 9mm wouldn't have needed - simply due to it being a hot round shoved into a platform engineered around the 9mm (as most .40's were). A lot of ad-hoc fixes got applied by the industry to deal with the round over the years - - all to eventually conclude it brought nothing useful to the party and any performance issues of the 9mm from the '80's had been solved by about 1993. Institutional inertia is probably the only reason the .40 has hung on so long. Enough of the folks that pushed for its adoption had to retire for face not to be lost.

The HK USP is, to my knowledge, the only duty pistol that started life as a .40, and it's a good study in what a Browning-based design needs to be in order to deal effectively with the pounding that round dishes out - - a slide-heavy brick.

I was very happy to have a hand in kicking the round to the curb.

[FLINTNFIRE]

Funny more people I know have went to 40 then went to 9mm , the round is far from dead and gone , same with the 45 .

As to recoil I myself do not find it to be hurtful or more stress on my hands wrists or elbows , I do like it for heavier weight and power over the 9mm , and lets face it folks this is a casting forum , where we are making none of those wonder 9 bullets that the feebs tout as making the 9 better , and the old argument on if it makes a 9 caliber better then same tech applied makes the 40 better still .

I shoot 9mm and 40 and 45 and find that I want the bigger heavy weight if it was needed , the 9 is fine for plinking but with cast hollow points or solids it is not better then the others , same old shoot what you can hit best with or what you feel comfortable with .

[Idaho45guy]

The HK USP is, to my knowledge, the only duty pistol that started life as a .40, and it's a good study in what a Browning-based design needs to be in order to deal effectively with the pounding that round dishes out - - a slide-heavy brick.

S&W 4006 was the first pistol designed around the .40 S&W round. Also, the M&P40, the Sig P229, and the Steyr M40.

Lot's of very smart people I know favor the .40 S&W.

[fivegunner]

Good job , Thanks for taking the time to do the test, I came to the 40 late in life, never thought that is was worth the money to leave the 1911 and start carrying the Glock23. but even old dogs find a bone or two . looking foreword to your next Video.

[FergusonTO35]

I hate shooting factory .40 ammo regardless of what kind of gun it is. Now, the .40 is a sweet round when loaded to .38-40 power level and will still get the job done. I shoot the Lee 401-175-TC with 4.3 grains Bullseye or 3.5 grains Clays in my Glock 22. Gets around 875 fps, is accurate, and recoils about like a standard pressure 9mm. I put this pistol together specifically for shooting this sort of round with parts scrounged from Gunbroker and this site. It has adjustable sights and an LWD barrel that was throated for cast and is my usual woods carry.

[dla]

I'm not sure why the concern about recoil. I watched a nice YT video where a fellow timed his shooting 9mm and 40sw - he was faster with 40sw.

I think people who don't shoot make a big deal about very little.

[robertbank]

I don't carry to defend myself among the human population but I do for Bruins. I carry the .357mag or 10MM for the bruins in a GP-100. Both will work for defensive situations. For all day carry for humans I will differ to my friend 9.3x60Al. The M&P in 40cal would be my choice based upon his assessment,

Take Care

Bob

[dverna]

I have a Glock 22 and a Lone Wolf 9mm barrel for it. Best of both?

I shoot defensive drills better with the 9mm. Recoil takes its toll on some people. If recoil did not have an effect, why have a power factor standard? I used to carry with the .40 barrel in it, but switched to the 9mm about 5 years ago.

Good video...but no surprises.

[downzero]

The HK USP is, to my knowledge, the only duty pistol that started life as a .40, and it's a good study in what a Browning-based design needs to be in order to deal effectively with the pounding that round dishes out - - a slide-heavy brick.

It also has a ridiculously high bore axis compared to its competitors, which is why basically nobody uses it in competition in any caliber.

[dla]

I have a Glock 22 and a Lone Wolf 9mm barrel for it. Best of both?

I shoot defensive drills better with the 9mm. Recoil takes its toll on some people. If recoil did not have an effect, why have a power factor standard? I used to carry with the .40 barrel in it, but switched to the 9mm about 5 years ago.

Good video...but no surprises.

Suppose it matters if you are playing games.
But not everyone is.

[Digger]

Picked up a Keltec P-11 in forty years back ...
Shooting that little puppy was a wake up for such a snappy little gun in that caliber.
One of the reasons they quit making them as the public was having problems with all the recoil , with that I picked up a mold from Miha that drops a nice 135 gr hollow point .
Down loading my rounds with different powders I have come up with some very enjoyable rounds for the pistol.
Along with a Keltec Su carbine in forty , both are a pleasure to shoot.

But on the other side of the coin , a Ruger P-91 ... what a brick ! , off the shelf factory loads in that feel "normal" ? for recoil with the weight of that Pistol.

[Bigslug]

Lot's of very smart people I know favor the .40 S&W.

288892
;)

[9.3X62AL]

Erik--

Behave.

[jonp]

I've found the recoil from a 40 in mid size to full size pistols vs 9 mm to be greater but nothing a person who practices can deal with. As I get older it might become too much and I'll have to stay with the 9mm and move from a Shield or Sig 938 to a M&P.

Many on this site including myself may not be able to give an accurate assessment of "controllable" or "too much recoil" given that we often shoot large bore revolvers that recoil far more than pistols so are used to it. If all you shoot is a 556 AR a 30-06 kicks like a mule. If you shoot a 45-70 or a Magnum on a regular basis the 30-06 isn't hard to deal with and doesn't seem bad.

Great video

[jonp]

288892
;)

Guess I'm a moron :drinks:

[Lloyd Smale]

IMO if you cant handle a 40sw you need some more range time. I chuckle at this because many who defend the 9 using the 40s recoil as ammo own 45 colts 41 mags 44 mags. How the heck do they shoot them. With there train of thought the only handguns they could be casting for are 9s 38 specials 380s and the pop gun calibers like 25s. Id guess the majority of those that claim the 40 is to much just arent shooters period.

[FergusonTO35]

The Beretta 96 is a surprisingly easy gun to shoot, I used to shoot with a guy that had one. I think the Walther style locking block helps.

[tazman]

IMO if you cant handle a 40sw you need some more range time. I chuckle at this because many who defend the 9 using the 40s recoil as ammo own 45 colts 41 mags 44 mags. How the heck do they shoot them. With there train of thought the only handguns they could be casting for are 9s 38 specials 380s and the pop gun calibers like 25s. Id guess the majority of those that claim the 40 is to much just arent shooters period.

I learned what my limits are and if I forget, the arthritis in my hands and wrists reminds me. I am not saying the 40 is too much. I am saying there is more recoil there than with a 9mm in the same size firearm. I don't own or shoot any handgun more powerful than a 357 Mag. I do own and shoot handguns in 40SW and 45ACP.

I spoke with a military firearms instructor a few months ago at my local indoor range. The 9mm on a 1911 frame came up. He said the Army keeps a number of them in stock because people with smaller, lighter hands have trouble qualifying with the firearms that have more recoil. He stated some people even have issues with a Beretta M9 but can handle the 9mm 1911 just fine. He loved my Springfield Range Officer pistols.

As to the stress on handgun designs due to the extra energy, Taurus built their copy of the Beretta 92FS in 40SW for a short time. I have one. The slide is somewhat thicker and heavier with heavier springs in order to handle the extra stress of the 40. The slide from a 9mm version will fit on it and work just fine with the proper magazine. Seems they had issues with simply modifying a 9mm slide to work. It couldn't stand the stress without beefing it up. The frame is otherwise identical.
When converting the PT92 to 40SW, you need to use the slide catch from the 40SW version due to the extra thickness of the slide. When converting the 40SW version to 9mm, all you need is the slide assembly. The slide catch from the 40SW version works fine with the narrower 9mm slide.

[Bigslug]

As to the stress on handgun designs due to the extra energy. . .

The Beretta answer was the thicker-slide Brigadier

The Sig answer was to discontinue their stamped slides with the breech block insert and go to solid milled stainless. (and to discontinue the SP2022)

The HK answer was to build big in the first place.

The Glock answer was first the three-pin Gen 3 frame (Ironically, the third pin they added was the one that commonly snapped, leaving the slide stop lever flapping without spring tension), and an extra coil in the mag spring. Then it was the Gen 4 with the beefier recoil spring. Finally, they split the .40 and the 9mm Gen 5's into two sets of slide dimensions - -the .40 cal versions going with heavier slides closer to the outside dimensions of their .45 and 10mm pistols. Agencies wanting to stick with .40 Glocks but not buy new holsters are S.O.L.

The real unfulfilled promise of the .40 was that it would work in a 9mm-sized platform with no significant changes in dimension or engineering. That didn't really pan out, and we're left with something that makes little economic or practical sense:

1. You don't have the manufacturing advantage you hoped for of minimal changes in minimal numbers of parts to produce otherwise identical guns in two calibers.

2. The .40's wear stuff out a lot sooner - including a lot of the people behind them.

3. The ammo costs more, and institutionally, you might need to shoot more of it remediating the recoil-shy.

4. The bad guys, and their coroners, really can't seem to tell the difference - - unless it's from more 9mm holes delivered in less time that are often better placed and deeper penetrating.

What I think was overlooked in the whole .40 mess was the pressure curve and spiky recoil. The 9mm guns were easy to shoot and for the most part, held up well. The .45's (at the time, not many options) took a little more work to shoot, but also held up well. The .40's were fussy little sports cars that were tiring to drive and required more time in the shop to stay in tune.

What I've been witnessing from my extended circle is that the .45 seems to be hanging on in the sports of falling targets (plates and bowling pins) where it's big mass helps it push unyielding non-meat targets around.

In law enforcement, we went through a period where the .45/1911 got a resurgence with SWAT units because their elevated training regimen was eating .40 caliber guns for breakfast. With the greater acceptance of the notion that the current 9mm food delivers good terminal performance, those 1911's too are going away. It's been very interesting to watch - in ten years, it went from being THE prestige duty gun to "You guys are still carrying that old thing??"

In a one-pistol environment where you're shooting your own gun on your own timetable and replacing stuff when the quirks dictate, the .40 is probably as good a lump of lead as any. On an institutional scale of feeding, training with, and fixing hundreds of them, it was Hellspawn. I miss it not. As Curly Bill Brocious so eloquently put it, "Well. . .bye".[smilie=s:

[robertbank]

Bigslug your comment is spot on if you ignore the pistols that are designed first for the 40 cal eg the M&P and then are chambered for the 9MM. There are others set out earlier on this thread.

Take Care

Bob

[dverna]

IMO if you cant handle a 40sw you need some more range time. I chuckle at this because many who defend the 9 using the 40s recoil as ammo own 45 colts 41 mags 44 mags. How the heck do they shoot them. With there train of thought the only handguns they could be casting for are 9s 38 specials 380s and the pop gun calibers like 25s. Id guess the majority of those that claim the 40 is to much just arent shooters period.

Lloyd,

I get plenty of range time and not just sitting around BS'ing with buddies. Like you, I have a private range. I can handle a .40 but not as well as the 9mm. I took the 4 day Handgun Course at Front Sight and scored "Distinguished' (only 3% make that cut) the first time out. The difference between these calibers is in follow up shots and/or dealing with multiple threats.

The carry ammunition I have for the 9mm and .40 has the same penetration in ballistic gell but the .40 hits with about 70 ft-lbs (20%) more energy. With a round in the thorax, ocular cavity, etc...that added energy is moot. I value faster and higher accuracy hits more than added energy. At 71, and with arthritis in one hand, "learning" to shoot a more powerful SD gun is not a good long term plan. I will be happy to stay with my "girly gun" for a few more years...LOL

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Many years ago I tried a friend's .40 Glock with factory ammo. I had been shooting a 1911 almost exclusively during that time. I found the recoil impulse harsh and unpleasant. It wasn't so much that the gun bucked in my hand as the sharp crack it made. Probably the much higher pressure in a light weight pistol. Never shot one since.

[Bigslug]

Another fun fact of running the .40 in a mixed-caliber environment:

There ain't no mistaking a 9mm for a .45, but 9mm's can find themselves loaded into .40's and .40's into .45's with alarming regularity. Thus far, the 9mm-into-.40 loadings I've seen have resulted in the extractor managing to hang onto the round and fire it, resulting in a blown out case, no accuracy, no damage to the gun, and a need to manually cycle out the ruptured case. The .40-into-1911 can easily result in the round jumping the extractor, where HOPEFULLY it just falls through the bore, but I've seen it result in "Click-tap-rack-BOOM!" and a bulged barrel.

I guess you could call it the "Unhappy Medium":shock:

[44MAG#1]

I think Mr. Smale is spot on.

[FLINTNFIRE]

Funny I have seen 9mm fired through a 40 no blown case bulged yes as there is a decreased amount of pressure , so it is not the rounds fault you load wrong one in magazine , but you keep trying to find a reason why there should not be this caliber .

So curly bill was bye if I remember the story , and if you do not like it who cares ? not I , shoot what you want , lots of calibers out there and the 9mm and 380 are the 2 worst for mixing up not the 40 .

So with the 380 you should have your ideal caliber other then the mix up with 9mm , softer recoil and probably better newer loading easier to handle no tiring out your wrists , heck you can carry a bigger load of ammo win win for the 380 and 9mm .

[9.3X62AL]

OK--I AM NOT arguing with Bigslug. We have known each other for years, and there is much overlap in our fields of experience. I have always been surprised at the wide range of opinions concerning the 40 S&W, though.

Bigslug had to keep a fleet of firearms running, and I defer to his far deeper experience in that venue than my own. Yeah, 40 S&Ws are high-performance items. I haven't had the maintenance issues with mine (Beretta 96, CZ-75B, Glock 22, 23) that he describes, but our ammo isn't at the extreme end of the performance scale, either--it's Ranger SXT/now called Winchester White Box 180 grain JHP, and these clock about 925-950 FPS depending upon barrel length. I reload practice ammo that duplicates those ballistics, too.

One other hat I wore was as a crimes-against-persons investigator, which included aggravated assaults and homicides. Tell ya what--whether cops or citizens or crooks fired the shots, the 40 S&W and 45 ACP put the wound recipient's status into STOPPED in short order and without a lot of rounds required to transmit the concept. I saw enough evidence of these traits in trauma rooms and autopsy suites to convince me that the 40 S&W or 45 ACP were my first choices as felon repellent, and that if a 9mm was on the menu to be very selective about the ammunition I fed that P-226 and P-228 x 9mm we have at home, when carried in harm's way.

[FergusonTO35]

I think most of the problems with the .40 and the guns that shoot it could have been avoided if they reduced the pressure and velocity. A .40 caliber 180 grain slug is going to get the job done at lower velocity by means of weight and diameter, just like the blackpowder .38-40, .44-40, .45 Colt and .44 Russian did. It wouldn't be a problem to design a bullet that consistently expands at lower velocity, although I don't think expansion is really needed for this round.

[Lloyd Smale]

Lloyd,

I get plenty of range time and not just sitting around BS'ing with buddies. Like you, I have a private range. I can handle a .40 but not as well as the 9mm. I took the 4 day Handgun Course at Front Sight and scored "Distinguished' (only 3% make that cut) the first time out. The difference between these calibers is in follow up shots and/or dealing with multiple threats.

The carry ammunition I have for the 9mm and .40 has the same penetration in ballistic gell but the .40 hits with about 70 ft-lbs (20%) more energy. With a round in the thorax, ocular cavity, etc...that added energy is moot. I value faster and higher accuracy hits more than added energy. At 71, and with arthritis in one hand, "learning" to shoot a more powerful SD gun is not a good long term plan. I will be happy to stay with my "girly gun" for a few more years...LOL

Don i have more 9s then any other caliber. I dont have a sore spot for 9s. Matter of fact they've about replaced my 22lr plinking time. I can load a cast bullet in a 9 and shoot darned near as cheap as a 22. Ive even got two ar15s in 9mm. But I do shake my head at the people who think the recoil is to much. They sure cant have to many handguns as even a 357 or 45acp kicks more. I also laugh at the "with the new high tech bullets the 9 is just as effective as the 40" News flash. the same bullets can be bought for the 40. My point is if i was ever faced with having to use my gun to protect myself for my family id sure prefer that day to have a 40 or 45 on my hip over a 9. Guess what else makes me kind of shake my head is this is a cast bullet forum. A place where id think most are beyond the 50 rounds a month bunch. I have to wonder what the heck there shooting? I know theres a few hypocrites in this argument because ive seen them post about there 41 and 44 mags. The 9 is what it is. Basicaly a 38 special that fits in a semi auto. Theres nothing magic about it. The 40? just a semi auto 38/40 and you dont see many saying they kick to much. Some say the report is to loud. I dont know i wear hearing protection. With proper hearing protection my ears dont ring with even a 454! If you truely have physical limitations i can see it. But your talking a 20 percent difference in killing power being moot? I say the small difference in recoil is moot. By the way add 20 percent to a 308 shooting a 150 and your talking 300 Weatherby power. Hardly a moot difference. I just wish you could step up to a 300wby with the same difference in recoil as comparing a 9 to a 40. Id have to ask some of you too if you own a 12 gauge?:popcorn: or if you are now relegated to a 410. What do you hunt deer with??? What do you cast for?? Another question. What kind of 9mm do you carry. I can tell you flat out my glock 43 or my shields or the wifes lc9 in 9 kick every bit as much as my 22 or 23 40s do. My springfield emp 40 is as small as those 9s and probably kicks less. But its a quite a bit heavier. But it kind of takes away the rubber stamp some us claiming the 40 is to much. Just a change in gun platforms change the whole story. Even compare my 9mm shields to my old 40 shield my son in law claimed on me. It was a performance center gun that was ported and didnt kick anymore then a 9mm. Bottom line is it would sure get boring if all i could handle is a 9mm or 38 special. Guns safe would sure have more room in it.

[Lloyd Smale]

I think most of the problems with the .40 and the guns that shoot it could have been avoided if they reduced the pressure and velocity. A .40 caliber 180 grain slug is going to get the job done at lower velocity by means of weight and diameter, just like the blackpowder .38-40, .44-40, .45 Colt and .44 Russian did. It wouldn't be a problem to design a bullet that consistently expands at lower velocity, although I don't think expansion is really needed for this round.

ding ding ding!!! Give that man a STAR! Raise your hand if your on this forum and are not a handloader!! Pretty easy to back off a grain or two or even more for plinking and practice and buying a box of factory full power 40s for carry. Heck i shot the crap out of my #1 458 mag for the 3 years i had it. In that time a few thousand rounds conservatively. At least 90 percent of it with reduced loads and cast bullets. Do you think every time i take a 454 475 500 or even a 44 mag or 41 mag out im using full power loads????

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I could be wrong but at the start of the ammo shortage there was still plenty of 40 on the shelves. For some reason it is not as popular as 9mm or .45. When I used to scrounge brass at gravel pits I seldom saw many .40's. I've no doubt it's a great defensive round. I should shoot one again sometime. Problem is, none of my buddies owns one. And I don't need another handgun caliber. I just picked up a gen 5 G34 mos and it shoots my powder coated 124 gr. @ 1,100 fps just great.

[dverna]

Lloyd,

We are not disagreeing as much as you may think. If someone can shoot the .40 as well as the 9mm it would be silly not to use the more powerful round. In my case, I have shot both enough to determine the 9mm gives me more accurate shots and faster follow up shots. It is not a small difference. I have seen the difference in groups and on the timer.

As to comparing a 20% energy difference in a pistol round to a .30 cal centerfire that is not germane. We are comparing 350 vs 420 ft-lbs in a pistol...70 ft-lbs. A 20% difference in a rifle will be closer to 500 ft-lb. I doubt hitting 200 lb animal (two or four legged) with bullet that has 70 ft-lb more energy is doing to matter much...but a 500 ft-lb difference seems significant.

As to which gun I carry, there are two. One is a Glock 22 with the 9mm barrel and the other is a Kahr 9mm. BTW I also have a Kahr in .40 but it is not pleasant to shoot and have never carried it. I bought it so I would have the same ammunition as the Glock 22 when I was planning to carry a .40.

I have the new fangled "whiz-bang super effective" bullets for both the 9mm and .40. They both penetrate to 16-18" and should be effective.

There is one last factor in why the 9mm. My fiancé cannot handle the .40 very well. I could have equipped her with 9mm guns and stayed with the .40 for myself but if/when the SHTF I want one platform. It is too easy to mix up 9mm and .40 mags. There is also the mental issue of her thinking she is shooting a less effective gun than I am, and that would effect her confidence. She is a very good pistol shot but more sensitive to recoil than I am. I am 50% heavier than she is...and that 50% is NOT moot...LOL.

[Bigslug]

I think most of the problems with the .40 and the guns that shoot it could have been avoided if they reduced the pressure and velocity. A .40 caliber 180 grain slug is going to get the job done at lower velocity by means of weight and diameter, just like the blackpowder .38-40, .44-40, .45 Colt and .44 Russian did. It wouldn't be a problem to design a bullet that consistently expands at lower velocity, although I don't think expansion is really needed for this round.

It's a valid premise, and it cuts to the core of why I'm such an ardent .40-basher in the first place. There's enough mass and energy potential in the .40 IF YOU USE IT RIGHT, and the designers of the round really didn't. The .40 grew out of an era with lots of obsession over foot pounds and energy transfer which were both largely debunked by the time the .40 was just starting to stock the shelves. That's certainly why it commonly gets loaded at "Formula 1 compression ratios" with bullets that open very large for their starting diameter. The standard training and duty loads we used were 180 grains at about 1000 fps. They would have done very well with 900fps and a little bit less expansion on the bullet to improve the penetration - slightly - to get it up into the deeper half of the FBI's "ideal" 12-18" range. The .45 bullets could do with a bit of the same treatment - the .90 to 1.0 caliber mushrooms are impressive to look at, but they aren't very deep divers.

The irony here is that has them all ending up at about the same place. All three cartridges as they currently exist are delivering something close enough to 400 foot pounds as makes no difference (if you're into that), and all three of them in FMJ format can penetrate A LOT more than we need them to - plenty of energy to manipulate to our liking. A series of well-engineered duty loads for the trio would expand to between .65 and .85 caliber, and stop in about 15"-17" inches of bare gel.

My gripe with the .40 as it has been loaded (and many of the guns it was loaded in) is that it accelerates the wear and compromises reliability of equipment sooner without bringing anything extra of use to the party. Never mind the bashing and whiplashing on the "hard parts" - if you have to keep changing recoil and mag springs just to keep the timing of round feed workable (especially considering varying sizes of shooters or their grip on the gun being compromised by the situation), while the 9mm versions of the same stay in tolerance and keep chugging on practically forever, the system needs some help.

Due to the foot-pounds/energy-transfer mania of the late 1980's, the designers of the .40 were trying for 10mm Minus P, and we're now coming around to the conclusion that we'd not experience any terminal performance loss by using a properly constructed "10mm Double-Minus P". We're also realizing that we'd be picking up some significant benefits in shooter performance and weapon longevity as well. That this cartridge already exists in the form of the modern 147 grain 9mm duty load is the reason for the .40's current decline - mainly on an institutional scale, but the commercial side is following.

Now, all that said, making the above adjustments to the .40 bullet designs and pressure levels would be a GREAT move for anybody that's retaining a stake in the round. The reality is that we're seeing fewer new guns made for it (ESPECIALLY in compacts), discontinuance of some of the old, and dialing back of spare parts production for that which is out there. Beating your guns up with the ammo concepts of yesteryear makes little sense. Might be worth lobbying the ammo companies to see reason.

Along similar lines, it might be worth lobbying the various action pistol competition disciplines that "making major" to maintain differentiation between the "more effective" .45 and the "less effective" 9mm is an outmoded concept. It may need to be adjusted somewhat to ensure the game is played with tactically-effective power levels and keep out the gamers with their muzzle-braked .22 Shorts, but as it has been traditionally measured, it only really matters to the bowling pin guys.

[robertbank]

ding ding ding!!! Give that man a STAR! Raise your hand if your on this forum and are not a handloader!! Pretty easy to back off a grain or two or even more for plinking and practice and buying a box of factory full power 40s for carry.

Lloyd you can back off a tenth of a grain or two but not two grains. The Max/Min charge for both the 9MM and 40cal in the Hogdon Reloading site is less than 1 grain for the 125 and 180 grain bullets.

Your point is well taken on the face of it load lighter for less recoil. You can also load heavier for caliber bullets to reduce felt recoil significantly. Folks up here are loading 158 gr bullets into their 9MM guns to shoot steel matches. They play with lighter recoil springs and the search goes on. I can't be bothered frankly. At 76 I am happy now to finish mid pack at local matches and I am good with that. I have to many friends who now shoot on Heavens range to concern myself with wood on the walls.

I do think though even loading at the lighter end of the 40 cal still results in a snappy loads. As a noted English Judge wrote several centuries ago you cannot put yourself in the place of the accused when assessing self defense. ..so to the effect on recoil on an individual. Personally for handgun, full charges of Ruger only in the 45Colt are not going to be felt by me anymore. If 8 gr of Unique won't do the job at hand in 45 Colt I need a rifle or a shotgun with slugs. With new shoulders I still enjoy 12 gauge trap loads but 3" steel not so much. I still bang away with my Longbranch but would avoid a light carbine in 30-06. Different strokes for different folks. As the song says, "Walk a mile in my shoes...."

Take Care

Bob

[Lloyd Smale]

There is one last factor in why the 9mm. My fiancé cannot handle the .40 very well. I could have equipped her with 9mm guns and stayed with the .40 for myself but if/when the SHTF I want one platform. now finally a valid argument. Like you said we are not all that far apart. I have a car truck and jeep. All of them have both a 9mm smith shield and some kind of a 9mm carbine in them. Like is said im not a 9mm basher and use them myself. It just that I find that most who cant handle a caliber bash it rather then admit its there weakness not the gun or round. Like I said the real comical thing is we will have someone on a fourm like this bash the 40 horrendous[smilie=1: recoil to make himself look like hes knowlegable and turn around a week from now and brag on his 44 mag.

Or you get the pretenders who talk about shooting more then they shoot and probably flinch shooting a 22lr. But the first category is the most prevalent. Typical guy who hunts deer once a year and bashes someone using a 7mag because he cant handle it. I shouldnt even say CANT. Its more like wont put in the time to find out it actually doesnt cause physical pain or injurys. Nope instead its easier for them to call someone who does use one and has mastered it a macho ape.

Then some of them go so far as to try to claim a 223 is a valid deer rifle. Now given a choice as to who to call an idiot. A deer hunter with a 7 mag or a deer hunter with a 223 i sure know what side im on. Id also bet my life if everyone here was honest that if there daughter was being attacked and they only had one shot to stop the guy wouldnt throw the recoil argument in the trash and grab a 44 mag!! Me if someone wants to harm me or my family i cant think of any gun that i would consider to powerful. Obviously carrying a 44 mag isnt ideal in many circumstances. But something like a smith shield in 40 or 45 is just as easy to carry as a 9. Now you can post numbers and stats all you want but if im faced with a bad guy with a gun id much rather send a 200 grain 45 cal hp at him then a 120 grain 9mm bullet.

If that makes me a macho ape then i wear the title proudly. Somehow i dont think when its all over im going to think back and remember that gun kicked to much. Yup i carry a 9 on occasion. I even carry 380s when my clothes will only allow it. Heck I even stick an naa 22 lr in my pocket when i walk the dog. But if i knew i was going into someplace that could get dangerous fast and there was a 9mm and an identical gun in 40 sitting there to choose. the 40 would be a no brainer. But your argument about arming yourself and your wife with the same thing is valid. I just take it a step further and can do it in 9, 40, 45,38, 357. I can even do a pistol and carbine for both of us in any of those calibers except 38 because my marlin 357s dont run 38s well.

By the way my wifes two guns are a 22lr naa she carrys in her purse everyday and a LCP 9mm muddy girl pink camo embarrassment of a gun she picked out for herself. So like i said I like them all. Same with deer guns. I have 18 differnt caliber rifles i use for deer and 3 more if you count ars. Everything from pop gun 300 bo's to high velocity flat shooter like my 6.5-300wby to thumpers like 4570s and 444s. I even killed one deer with my old 458 mag #1 i no long own. Guess that makes me king of the apes. Or maybe someone that just loves guns. ALL OF THEM. Bottom line is I feel sorry for those who cant even handle a 40. It would sure make being a gun nut awful boring if the biggest semi auto i could handle is a 9 and that would make the 38 special the biggest revolver. Id probably have to sell my challenger too because only a macho guy needs more then a prius too.:kidding:

[robertbank]

Lloyd the argument has been made throughout this thread. You finally got it,k congrats!

Take Care

Bob

[FergusonTO35]

ding ding ding!!! Give that man a STAR! Raise your hand if your on this forum and are not a handloader!! Pretty easy to back off a grain or two or even more for plinking and practice and buying a box of factory full power 40s for carry. Heck i shot the crap out of my #1 458 mag for the 3 years i had it. In that time a few thousand rounds conservatively. At least 90 percent of it with reduced loads and cast bullets. Do you think every time i take a 454 475 500 or even a 44 mag or 41 mag out im using full power loads????

Thanks!

[FergusonTO35]

It's a valid premise, and it cuts to the core of why I'm such an ardent .40-basher in the first place. There's enough mass and energy potential in the .40 IF YOU USE IT RIGHT, and the designers of the round really didn't. The .40 grew out of an era with lots of obsession over foot pounds and energy transfer which were both largely debunked by the time the .40 was just starting to stock the shelves. That's certainly why it commonly gets loaded at "Formula 1 compression ratios" with bullets that open very large for their starting diameter. The standard training and duty loads we used were 180 grains at about 1000 fps. They would have done very well with 900fps and a little bit less expansion on the bullet to improve the penetration - slightly - to get it up into the deeper half of the FBI's "ideal" 12-18" range. The .45 bullets could do with a bit of the same treatment - the .90 to 1.0 caliber mushrooms are impressive to look at, but they aren't very deep divers.

The irony here is that has them all ending up at about the same place. All three cartridges as they currently exist are delivering something close enough to 400 foot pounds as makes no difference (if you're into that), and all three of them in FMJ format can penetrate A LOT more than we need them to - plenty of energy to manipulate to our liking. A series of well-engineered duty loads for the trio would expand to between .65 and .85 caliber, and stop in about 15"-17" inches of bare gel.

My gripe with the .40 as it has been loaded (and many of the guns it was loaded in) is that it accelerates the wear and compromises reliability of equipment sooner without bringing anything extra of use to the party. Never mind the bashing and whiplashing on the "hard parts" - if you have to keep changing recoil and mag springs just to keep the timing of round feed workable (especially considering varying sizes of shooters or their grip on the gun being compromised by the situation), while the 9mm versions of the same stay in tolerance and keep chugging on practically forever, the system needs some help.

Due to the foot-pounds/energy-transfer mania of the late 1980's, the designers of the .40 were trying for 10mm Minus P, and we're now coming around to the conclusion that we'd not experience any terminal performance loss by using a properly constructed "10mm Double-Minus P". We're also realizing that we'd be picking up some significant benefits in shooter performance and weapon longevity as well. That this cartridge already exists in the form of the modern 147 grain 9mm duty load is the reason for the .40's current decline - mainly on an institutional scale, but the commercial side is following.

Now, all that said, making the above adjustments to the .40 bullet designs and pressure levels would be a GREAT move for anybody that's retaining a stake in the round. The reality is that we're seeing fewer new guns made for it (ESPECIALLY in compacts), discontinuance of some of the old, and dialing back of spare parts production for that which is out there. Beating your guns up with the ammo concepts of yesteryear makes little sense. Might be worth lobbying the ammo companies to see reason.

Along similar lines, it might be worth lobbying the various action pistol competition disciplines that "making major" to maintain differentiation between the "more effective" .45 and the "less effective" 9mm is an outmoded concept. It may need to be adjusted somewhat to ensure the game is played with tactically-effective power levels and keep out the gamers with their muzzle-braked .22 Shorts, but as it has been traditionally measured, it only really matters to the bowling pin guys.

I like the way you think, but it would really take a marketing Einstein to convince the ammo buying masses that MORE POWAH is not what they should be shopping for. Especially given that is the reason most of them chose the .40 over the 9 in the first place.

[FergusonTO35]

Lloyd you can back off a tenth of a grain or two but not two grains. The Max/Min charge for both the 9MM and 40cal in the Hogdon Reloading site is less than 1 grain for the 125 and 180 grain bullets.

Your point is well taken on the face of it load lighter for less recoil. You can also load heavier for caliber bullets to reduce felt recoil significantly. Folks up here are loading 158 gr bullets into their 9MM guns to shoot steel matches. They play with lighter recoil springs and the search goes on. I can't be bothered frankly. At 76 I am happy now to finish mid pack at local matches and I am good with that. I have to many friends who now shoot on Heavens range to concern myself with wood on the walls.

I do think though even loading at the lighter end of the 40 cal still results in a snappy loads. As a noted English Judge wrote several centuries ago you cannot put yourself in the place of the accused when assessing self defense. ..so to the effect on recoil on an individual. Personally for handgun, full charges of Ruger only in the 45Colt are not going to be felt by me anymore. If 8 gr of Unique won't do the job at hand in 45 Colt I need a rifle or a shotgun with slugs. With new shoulders I still enjoy 12 gauge trap loads but 3" steel not so much. I still bang away with my Longbranch but would avoid a light carbine in 30-06. Different strokes for different folks. As the song says, "Walk a mile in my shoes...."

Take Care

Bob

Oftentimes, you just have to get creative. My pet loads for the .40 are not to be found in any manual, at least not with these exact components. The nice thing is that it is seldom hazardous to reduce charges, and you can often find some really sweet loads by doing so. My favorite .30-30 load is 30 grains IMR 4064 under a 150 grain Sierra, Hodgdon says to use 31-33.3. This load is more accurate than factory ammo in all of my rifles and kills things just as dead. I really like 37 grains IMR 4895 under any 180 grain slug in my Browning BLR .308. It is accurate and pleasant to shoot which can't be said about most 180 grain loads in this rifle. My .257 Roberts is deadly with .250 Savage level loads, as in single hole at 100 yards accurate. The dummy pulling the trigger is the only limiting factor!

[Cosmic_Charlie]

The thing about the .40 SW is limited case capacity. That along with a heavy bullet makes for sharp recoil impulse. I shoot a good amount of .44 mag with a 275 gr. boolit going about 1165 and it is not at all unpleasant. With that big case the pressure curve is longer and I think it makes all the difference. Our local PD switched to .40 about 20 years ago and pretty quickly went back to 9mm because so many of their officers could not shoot them well. Think the guns were SW Sigmas but the started calling them smegmas.

[Idaho45guy]

Oftentimes, you just have to get creative. My pet loads for the .40 are not to be found in any manual, at least not with these exact components. The nice thing is that it is seldom hazardous to reduce charges, and you can often find some really sweet loads by doing so. My favorite .30-30 load is 30 grains IMR 4064 under a 150 grain Sierra, Hodgdon says to use 31-33.3. This load is more accurate than factory ammo in all of my rifles and kills things just as dead. I really like 37 grains IMR 4895 under any 180 grain slug in my Browning BLR .308. It is accurate and pleasant to shoot which can't be said about most 180 grain loads in this rifle. My .257 Roberts is deadly with .250 Savage level loads, as in single hole at 100 yards accurate. The dummy pulling the trigger is the only limiting factor!

I used to shoot .40 S&W in GSSF matches and loaded my own pet loads that were about a grain under the minimum. They were accurate and cycled the action. 9mm off-the-shelf loads were more harsh than my .40 S&W match loads.

[Lloyd Smale]

I used to shoot .40 S&W in GSSF matches and loaded my own pet loads that were about a grain under the minimum. They were accurate and cycled the action. 9mm off-the-shelf loads were more harsh than my .40 S&W match loads.

amazing what handloading will let you do. I havent bought a box of factory ammo in 30 years. Ive had a few given to me but i cringe even buying jacketed bullets to load for self defense loads. Ill add to that that the loads that got the 40 its snappy reputation have been watered down over the years.

[Lloyd Smale]

Oftentimes, you just have to get creative. My pet loads for the .40 are not to be found in any manual, at least not with these exact components. The nice thing is that it is seldom hazardous to reduce charges, and you can often find some really sweet loads by doing so. My favorite .30-30 load is 30 grains IMR 4064 under a 150 grain Sierra, Hodgdon says to use 31-33.3. This load is more accurate than factory ammo in all of my rifles and kills things just as dead. I really like 37 grains IMR 4895 under any 180 grain slug in my Browning BLR .308. It is accurate and pleasant to shoot which can't be said about most 180 grain loads in this rifle. My .257 Roberts is deadly with .250 Savage level loads, as in single hole at 100 yards accurate. The dummy pulling the trigger is the only limiting factor!

had to chuckle this summer. Good example of its all in your head! I had my chrono set up at the range one day checking some loads and my buddy who i do crop damage shooting with showed up. He had a new 308 77 hawkeye. He mostly shoots a 2506 and his 6.5 creedmore. He had along his 3006 too to make sure it was zero'd. He told me he bought that 308 because it just kicked alot less then his o6 does. He shoots mostly factory ammo. I looked at what he had and he had 150 fed premium 308 and some 150 corelock 06. he told me he popped off a few rounds off the back porch the day before and it was much more pleasant then his o6. Well if youve ever shot 06s over a chrono youd know that factory ammo is VERY watered down. 150 corelocks are hard pressed to give more then 2700 fps and most book loads are just as bad and run about the same. we chrono'd both and his new 308 actually had a 5 shot average 25 fps higher then the 06. Now to be honest if we would have used corelocks in both that would have probably ended up the other way but 25fps!!! Thats nothing.

Id about bet i could take most who dont shoot every week out to the range with a glock 23 and a glock 19 every weekend for a year and have them guess which they were shooting and id about bet theyd be wrong as often as right. One reason is what Idaho45 probably ran into. With the big comeback of the 9 and the "9 is just as effective as the 40" BS is 9mm ammo is loaded up to its max. Most times you will never beat it with handloads. The 40 on the other hand is the forgotten child and doesnt get all the new high tech powders ect and can easily be beat by handloading.

Last handgun i bought really made me chuckle. Its my 3rd 22 glock. Seems nobody wants them and imo there probably the best combat handgun made. Not a ccw gun but if shtf and i wanted a handgun to carry on my hip that would be the one. He said the 40 was just to much for him and he was going to buy a 9. I didnt argue because he was about giving it away. He came over a week later to show off his new gun. A glock 43! About half the size and i own both and will tell you flat out that the 22 is much more comfortable to shoot with full power loads as the 43 is with full power 9s. But he said the 43 is a ***** cat. Point in all of this? Recoil is much more a mental thing then a physical. People read forums like this and hear everyone saying the 40 kicks like a mule and convince themselves so much so that they even believe it when they shoot one. Doesnt matter the platform those dern 40s just KICK. Like i said ive even heard it from guys that shoot 357s and 44 mags. Oh well I guess there sure not hurting me. Matter of fact I got that one 22 from someone believing that bs and two more and a 23 because the prison system up here decided to go with 19s instead. Wish theyd decide they kick to much and go to 380s because i really like my 19 and wouldnt mind another one at half price.

[Bigslug]

I like the way you think, but it would really take a marketing Einstein to convince the ammo buying masses that MORE POWAH is not what they should be shopping for. Especially given that is the reason most of them chose the .40 over the 9 in the first place.

Well. . .when their guns crumble to dust it'll certainly streamline the production lines for Federal and Winchester, lowering the production cost of the stuff folks are still shooting. That's a valid strategy too!:bigsmyl2:

[Bigslug]

Lloyd, I would like to ask you what metric you are using to say the 9mm is NOT as effective as the .40, given apples to apples ammo.

Energy? If a boxer popped you with the foot pounds of either, you probably couldn't tell the 20 or so that separates them apart.

Diameter? Call it a tenth of an inch difference, maybe two, by the time the expansion is done with. If we're not expanding, then it's .05" or the difference in meplat you can get to feed.

Impact velocity? Enough overlap here that it's probably not worth discussing, but disruption of tissue by rapid displacement isn't much of a thing at the speeds either can attain..

Penetration? The 147 grain HP's consistently go deeper than the 180's do on all the formal barrier tests save auto sheet metal (where the noses collapse and they behave like FMJ, running to the end of the gel blocks), and auto glass (where they're both severely compromised to practically identical levels) - which works out to added wound volume and greater chance of transecting something important.

You're right on recoil being subjective - - to a point. The wear and tear on the .40 caliber platforms is no myth. In the Glocks, you want to be changing recoil and often mag springs every couple thousand rounds vs. the 9mm's. . .where maybe get around to it at some point in the next couple decades. . .if you feel like it. The objective side is that the .40 delivers 30-40% more recoil by the numbers, and all of the energy that causes the wear to the gun ends up in your arm. At that point, we're talking about "exceeding design tolerances" of the body, just like we are in the pistols. If you're a big, young guy that still has nice squishy cartilage in his joints, have fun. Less body mass and/or age - - it's probably less damaging to find a nice dominatrix to spank you if pain from repetitive blows is something you enjoy.

Short version: both cars will get you to the same destination, with the .40 consuming more tires, gas, brake pads, etc..., and requiring more driver rest stops along the way. There is no B.S. behind the justifications for it's decline.

[44MAG#1]

Here we go with "WHICH IS BEST", "WHICH HAS MORE STOPPING POWER", "WHICH HAS MORE KNOCKDOWN", debate, argument, discussion.
Did anyone see it coming? I sure did. How could it not happen?

[Lloyd Smale]

Lloyd, I would like to ask you what metric you are using to say the 9mm is NOT as effective as the .40, given apples to apples ammo.

Energy? If a boxer popped you with the foot pounds of either, you probably couldn't tell the 20 or so that separates them apart.

Diameter? Call it a tenth of an inch difference, maybe two, by the time the expansion is done with. If we're not expanding, then it's .05" or the difference in meplat you can get to feed.

Impact velocity? Enough overlap here that it's probably not worth discussing, but disruption of tissue by rapid displacement isn't much of a thing at the speeds either can attain..

Penetration? The 147 grain HP's consistently go deeper than the 180's do on all the formal barrier tests save auto sheet metal (where the noses collapse and they behave like FMJ, running to the end of the gel blocks), and auto glass (where they're both severely compromised to practically identical levels) - which works out to added wound volume and greater chance of transecting something important.

You're right on recoil being subjective - - to a point. The wear and tear on the .40 caliber platforms is no myth. In the Glocks, you want to be changing recoil and often mag springs every couple thousand rounds vs. the 9mm's. . .where maybe get around to it at some point in the next couple decades. . .if you feel like it. The objective side is that the .40 delivers 30-40% more recoil by the numbers, and all of the energy that causes the wear to the gun ends up in your arm. At that point, we're talking about "exceeding design tolerances" of the body, just like we are in the pistols. If you're a big, young guy that still has nice squishy cartilage in his joints, have fun. Less body mass and/or age - - it's probably less damaging to find a nice dominatrix to spank you if pain from repetitive blows is something you enjoy.

Short version: both cars will get you to the same destination, with the .40 consuming more tires, gas, brake pads, etc..., and requiring more driver rest stops along the way. There is no B.S. behind the justifications for it's decline.

easy what is more powerful a 357 mag or a 41 mag. that a 40 is more powerful and effective isnt even a point worth arguing. Using your train of thought we might as well chuck the 44 mag and the 454 475 and 500s because if you hit something in the eyeball with a 9mm it will kill id dead. By the way one of my glock 22s and my glock 23 have at least 20k on them and i wouldnt doubt the 23 has double that and the same recoil spring glock put in it at the factory is still going strong and ive NEVER had to replace a spring in a glock magazine. Ive had to fart with them in the cheap aftermarket mags but NEVER a glock factory mag. Ill add to that every mag i have in the house is stuffed full and left that way till its used and put away loaded when im done.

Yup your car analogy is right a prius will get you to the grocery store and get 30mpg doing it. My 392 challenger will do it to and get 25 mpg (with my wife driving) Gets stuck behind a couple semis going 50 on a two lane and which would you rather pass with. Lots of this comes down to that though. Theres some here that just arent gun nuts. There happy with two or three pistols. Most if honest probably dont even average a 100 rounds a month. Me? Im a gun nut. I love them all. I shoot the snot our of all of them. Ive killed more game with handguns then most here have killed with rifles. Im passionate about my hobbys be they guns, cars, boats, atvs, snowmobiles ect and dont settle and dont try to pretend one is something its not. I love my challenger. The 392 is quick but i dont go on a challenger fourm and try to claim it will do anything a hellcat will. Nothing at all wrong with a 9mm. Ill repeat it for about the 100th time on here. I shoot probably more 9mm ammo then every other caliber combined. But i know what it is and what it isnt. I also dont bash a hell cat because its so powerful i cant handle it. Bottom line is it makes a dammed fine grocery getter too. Im out of this one now. Hate to argue at my first rodeo:kidding:

[FLINTNFIRE]

Well I would expect with all that more recoil there is also more out the other end also , but everyone can use what they want 9mm or 40 or 45 , and it seems that with the 9mm it always takes more hits then bigger calibers so get those high capacity magazines and bang away as it will consume more powder lead and those easy to get primers .

Still wondering about the dominatrix though where that came from , oh well I am still a young guy and do not understand why someone wants spanked .

[44MAG#1]

This is going to be a real ride.
Sit down, buckle up and hang on.

[Idaho45guy]

This is going to be a real ride.
Sit down, buckle up and hang on.

Don't blame me; I just offered actual video evidence of the difference in recoil, lol.

[44MAG#1]

Don't blame me; I just offered actual video evidence of the difference in recoil, lol.

Well, sometimes it doesn't take much to cause an uproar.

[Idaho45guy]

And to throw gas on the fire, I just got back from the range doing the same recoil tests but using a G19, P365, XDS 40, and a G29.

Will take hours to process it all, but the initial impression was what you would expect; recoil was least in the G19 and worst in the G29.

But, then I thought it would be interesting to see how accurately and quickly I could fire all four pistols at 7 yards. Still waiting for the video to load so I can do accurate timing, but all were pretty close together as far as how quickly I could get 5 shots on paper.

But what blew me away was the winner. The G29 was the most accurate by far with a 2 1/8" group. 2nd was the P365 at 2 3/4", third was likely the XDS 40, but the last shot went off paper so no way to confirm. The least accurate? The G19, which was the lightest recoiling and largest pistol. But, that may have had to do with the sight, which was a red dot, and I totally lost sight of the dot on the bright white target.

But still, the G29 had to be a fluke. So I shot it again. And again, it got a 2 1/8" group. Both times recorded on video.

Photos are done, at least...

All 4 targets...

289056

Then the two G29 targets...

289057

[44MAG#1]

I edited my post even more as I didn't want add anything to this nonsense concerning recoil or the 40 S&W verses 9MM.

[Catshooter]

Lloyd,

Empty out your Glocks, point the muzzle straight up, pull the trigger. Now holding the trigger back still, pull the slide all the way back. Now slowly ease it forward, gently. Does it close all the way? If so, you're golden. If not, if just doesn't quite lock up the recoil spring is past it's useful life. This is the correct, factory approved test.

And I can tell you, if you've got 20K + on a recoil spring you're waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay past due for a change. Knowing you I expect you'll report perfect performance: it's all good. But at 30 or 40K on one spring you're battering the hell out of the frame.

Just FYI.


Cat

[Lloyd Smale]

Lloyd,

Empty out your Glocks, point the muzzle straight up, pull the trigger. Now holding the trigger back still, pull the slide all the way back. Now slowly ease it forward, gently. Does it close all the way? If so, you're golden. If not, if just doesn't quite lock up the recoil spring is past it's useful life. This is the correct, factory approved test.

And I can tell you, if you've got 20K + on a recoil spring you're waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay past due for a change. Knowing you I expect you'll report perfect performance: it's all good. But at 30 or 40K on one spring you're battering the hell out of the frame.

Just FYI.


Cat

so you think i will lie?????????? I can guarantee you one thing. Theres people on here that will say they disagree with me and probably some that dont like me but you wont find a single person that will say I WOULD EVER lie.

[Lloyd Smale]

And to throw gas on the fire, I just got back from the range doing the same recoil tests but using a G19, P365, XDS 40, and a G29.

Will take hours to process it all, but the initial impression was what you would expect; recoil was least in the G19 and worst in the G29.

But, then I thought it would be interesting to see how accurately and quickly I could fire all four pistols at 7 yards. Still waiting for the video to load so I can do accurate timing, but all were pretty close together as far as how quickly I could get 5 shots on paper.

But what blew me away was the winner. The G29 was the most accurate by far with a 2 1/8" group. 2nd was the P365 at 2 3/4", third was likely the XDS 40, but the last shot went off paper so no way to confirm. The least accurate? The G19, which was the lightest recoiling and largest pistol. But, that may have had to do with the sight, which was a red dot, and I totally lost sight of the dot on the bright white target.

But still, the G29 had to be a fluke. So I shot it again. And again, it got a 2 1/8" group. Both times recorded on video.

Photos are done, at least...

All 4 targets...

289056

Then the two G29 targets...

289057

had to chuckle ive got a bunch of glocks and have owned many more. Out of all of them the most accurate one ive ever owned is my 29. Cant say i really like the gun. Without ext mags its just doesnt work with my big hands. But it shoots way better then it should and i keep it for that reason. 26's and 27's are the same but ive had two 26's and one 27 and none of them shot well enough to keep to justify keeping. Tell you what id really love glock to make is something close to the size of a 43 in 40sw.

[Bigslug]

so you think i will lie?????????? I can guarantee you one thing. Theres people on here that will say they disagree with me and probably some that dont like me but you wont find a single person that will say I WOULD EVER lie.

I think what he's saying is you should perform a function check on your pistols. I would also suggest you take your slide off, pull your firing pin the rear, then push it forward to see if it clicks past the firing pin safety. The FP and FPS on the G3 and G4 .40's have a tendency to batter each other where they interface. I have replaced significant quantities of both. It seems to be worse in the 22's than the 23's and 27's.

If you've got a Gen 3 Glock .40 that's been lubricated with water from the Fountain of Youth, we're happy for you and would like to know where to buy a bottle of the stuff. For estimate's sake, 20,000 rounds of .40 is a solid 10 .50 cal ammo cans filled to the top. If I haven't changed a recoil spring ever, by the time I got to the bottom of the second one, I'd be looking for broken locking block pins, and FP and FPS interface battered. At some point in that party, I'd expect rounds nose-diving in the mags against their tired springs and sticking against the bottom of the feed ramp. Less frequent occurrences might be broken locking blocks (depending on exact production date), a snapped trigger spring (later trigger bars were easier on them), broken frame rails (always the left rear, for some reason), and snapped springs on the slide stop lever. I personally added a snapped trigger pin (early in my secondhand ownership) and cracked frame above the locking pin hole to the list (much closer to it's retirement).

So if you're up to that kind of round count, all on the original OEM parts, and the gun still runs reliably, I'd like to know what you either are or are not doing differently. Pretty much all 180 grains at 1000 fps in my shop.

[FergusonTO35]

289082

[FLINTNFIRE]

Yeah the 40 bashers never stop , started when the round first came out the snide short and weak , now its on to the glory of the reborn 9mm only missing the 45 is king and if it is not a magnum it is to puny .

All pistols need parts replaced , the higher pressure faster you run them the sooner it needs done , thread started out with a simple video , I wish I could say I have shot them to death but I have not , have bought parts for all my calibers and change as I think they need it .

I have bought more then a few police trade ins , most hardly shot , some still brand new but no box , magazines had weak springs in a few , easily replaced , best buy for the dollar in my experiences .

My father always bought used when I was young as money was tight , look the firearm over , check it out , let someone else take the depreciation hit , I still buy some that way , those who switch to the latest greatest firearm of the moment as they have to have it so trade in the hardly shot for newer .

I am always amazed on a casting forum when the jacketed latest greatest comes into play , I have not shot or loaded any jacketed in so long now in pistols , yet I confess to loading jacketed in my rifles , mainly the semi auto or long range flavors , all the levers and the single shots are on lead only diets .

When the 40 fell from law enforcement favor in their rush to follow the feebs , 40 calibers were cheap , was a great time to buy , it was the last large stash of ammo at sportsmans locally when the plandemic was getting into full swing , then it disappeared when it was all that was left .

I do carry a semi auto , but the revolver is still my favorite , a 45 colt just has that special place , anyway shoot what you want I do .

[Walks]

I have an old (if something barely past 30yrs is old) Glock 23. One of the very first.
It's been a great Pistol. Functioned perfectly right outa the box. Put about 12,000rds thru it in the first 5yrs I owned her. Only Handgun I fired that wasn't a Single Action Colt or Ruger for a long time.
My Daughter's started shooting it about 2000, just fell in Love with it. Bought a 9mm conversion bbl about 15yrs ago.
She usually shoots 9mm, just because it's cheaper. She will say it's a bit snappier in .40S&W, doesn't seem to bother Her.
I replaced recoil springs at 10,000rds, just seemed like a good limit. Three so far, it seems to like Lee bullets the best. The #401-175-TC & #356-125-2R, both over Titegroup.

[Daekar]

In my limited experience with guns in 380, 9mm, 40, and 45, I would much rather shoot a 45 than a 40. It's not so much the amount of recoil, but the unpleasant snap of the 40 compared to the meaty push of the 45.

Don't put more credence in my opinion than what you paid for it though, I load my 357mag J-frame rounds to 9mm energy. A tactical operator commando I am not.

[sniper]

I shot my granddaughter's husband's SR 40. The recoil didn't seem all that fierce, compared to my S&W 586 357 with Mild Magnum loads, but I've never shot a 9mm of any flavor. A very controllable round, given reasonable gun weight. If you are reaally not sure, a local range may have rental examples of both you can try.

[Lloyd Smale]

I think what he's saying is you should perform a function check on your pistols. I would also suggest you take your slide off, pull your firing pin the rear, then push it forward to see if it clicks past the firing pin safety. The FP and FPS on the G3 and G4 .40's have a tendency to batter each other where they interface. I have replaced significant quantities of both. It seems to be worse in the 22's than the 23's and 27's.

If you've got a Gen 3 Glock .40 that's been lubricated with water from the Fountain of Youth, we're happy for you and would like to know where to buy a bottle of the stuff. For estimate's sake, 20,000 rounds of .40 is a solid 10 .50 cal ammo cans filled to the top. If I haven't changed a recoil spring ever, by the time I got to the bottom of the second one, I'd be looking for broken locking block pins, and FP and FPS interface battered. At some point in that party, I'd expect rounds nose-diving in the mags against their tired springs and sticking against the bottom of the feed ramp. Less frequent occurrences might be broken locking blocks (depending on exact production date), a snapped trigger spring (later trigger bars were easier on them), broken frame rails (always the left rear, for some reason), and snapped springs on the slide stop lever. I personally added a snapped trigger pin (early in my secondhand ownership) and cracked frame above the locking pin hole to the list (much closer to it's retirement).

So if you're up to that kind of round count, all on the original OEM parts, and the gun still runs reliably, I'd like to know what you either are or are not doing differently. Pretty much all 180 grains at 1000 fps in my shop.

i keep them lubed and my plinking ammo pressure is backed off a bit. Only max pressure ammo used is my carry ammo which is probably the same routine most here use in any self defense gun be it a glock or any other handgun or even an ar15. Only springs ive replaced are in my 27 and 29 that get shot will full power ammo all the time and ive NEVER had to replace a spring in a glock branded mag in any of my glocks. The guns get lubed with about anything i happen to have on the shelf but mostly tetra grease or oil. only mag spring malfunctions have been with cheap aftermarket mags. By the sounds of it youve had more glock failures just in your house then ive heard of from all the glock owners i know. But you have me figured out! Im a bald faced lyre that knows little about shooting handguns :coffee: Ill bow to your vastly superior knowledge. After all ive only been doing this for 50 years. Well thats a lie too. I didnt get my first glock until i was 33 so only 32 years experience with them. :drinks: Im out of this one. Kind of out of placed here. Not near the experience as some and just a macho redneck that isnt afraid of the violent recoil of a 40sw:Fire:

[Lloyd Smale]

Yeah the 40 bashers never stop , started when the round first came out the snide short and weak , now its on to the glory of the reborn 9mm only missing the 45 is king and if it is not a magnum it is to puny . yup it brings out as many experts as a discussion on the 700 remington being dangerous.

[Bigslug]

Yeah the 40 bashers never stop. .

I consider it the Diane Feinstein of pistol cartridges: over many years, it EARNED my hate.:mrgreen:

[FLINTNFIRE]

I actually started out with a dislike and came to like it , but I load my own and I find the 40 and larger to be easier loading then 9mm , for years I did not load 223 either as I did not like handling the smaller bullets and brass .

I own quite a few 9mm pistols and only 1 carbine , I prefer the 40 and 45 carbines over the 9 , I carried a hi-power for awhile and then went back to the 1911 , It all boils down to preferences and dislikes , perceived recoil or something else , be a boring world with all 9mm pistols and no intermediate or larger .

I have seen 9mm pistols with cracks and showing the signs of pressure and abuse , hotrod anything and sooner or later it starts to come undone , maintenance and common sense keep a firearm shooting longer , but on the other hand every gun will sooner or later wear out from use or abuse .

Funny thing is when shooting pistols it was always the 40 that women did not like , well this thread has stirred up the 40 verse 9mm but seemed to be missing the 45acp is king .

Oh as to the diane f word person she was hated from the first time I saw her and heard her if it is a her , you have a good day bigslug

[FergusonTO35]

I carried a hi-power for awhile and then went back to the 1911

So, you devolved your carry gun?:kidding:

[Daekar]

So, you devolved your carry gun?:kidding:

I went from a Sig P238 and H&K P2000 to a S&W Mod. 60. Could we say that I devolved to a revolver? ;-)

[FLINTNFIRE]

Yes I went back to a earlier design , one I am comfortable with and have always liked , and in a caliber I like better then 9mm , once again when I am loading those smaller bullets and brass are more of a pain , maybe if I had more sensitive feelings , but time takes its toll or as the last doctor to stitch my hand said " I hate stitching you men who work outside with your hands and all the scar tissue " I still have my hi-powers and assorted copies of them .

[bangerjim]

Snappy or not, I will choose and use my 40 S&W XDM pistol over the three 9 mm's I have for feel, fun, and accuracy any day. The XDM is dead accurate, while the 9's tend to wander hither, thither and yond. And loading the 40's is a lot easier than the 9's.

[dverna]

Until reading this I did not realize the 9mm was difficult to reload because it was so small.

It sucks to get old. I know for sure I load 9mm on the 1050, but cannot remember if I ever loaded 9mm on the 650. I had a SDB in 9mm and cannot remember it being a PITA, but I did not shoot much 9mm back then. I did get a conversion for the 550 in case the 1050 dies and the world comes to an end...but have never used it.

I am working on setting up a bullet feeder die on the 1050. Keeping my fingers from getting pinched is the only thing keeping me from cranking out 1000 rounds an hour...lol.

Anyway, good points made by many. Agree with Lloyd about Glock 22’s being great combat guns and it is neat you can get 9mm barrels for them. I wish I had bought two more when PD’s were converting to 9mm.

Awaiting with eager anticipation the defunding of police. Should be lots of lightly used 9mm’s to stock up on.

[FLINTNFIRE]

It may not be a issue for you , it is for me , but I load 9mm and I load a lot , I have a square deal b just for it , son has one to so does son in law so I guess we shoot it a lot and we stash a lot , just when it comes down to ease of handling I find the 40 and 45 to be easier .

Have worked with my hands all my life , grew up on a farm , worked highlead , slackline logging and cut timber , work on boats with wires and ropes , still do carpentry on the side , hands have took a beating , worked in a aluminum smelter years ago for awhile also , can pick up hot items and not feel it , just those small cases do not feel right and love the 380 that is always mixed in .

You missed out on all the 9mm berettas when the police switched to glocks , bought my g 34 pistols when I saw them for so low on gunbroker I could not pass up , same with the g 41 pistols and the g35 , and the ruger 9e pistols , if you watch there comes a time when someone is selling cheaper then opening bids on others and if it is a good buy I get them .

Last year the S&W M&P 40 calibers were going from one place for $250 buy now or opening bid of 240 , funny watching 2 people bid it up to 270 when the place would post another for same bids , bought 5 did not want to be greedy , needed some gifts for Christmas .

The 40 may not be for everybody just as the 9mm and 45acp are not , but it is good to have options . And yes I am a hoarder , I hoard brass and magazines and parts and reloading stuff , I know people only bought a 9mm because the military and police use it and as a option should the time ever come when it is pick up whats left laying about .

[Lloyd Smale]

I actually started out with a dislike and came to like it , but I load my own and I find the 40 and larger to be easier loading then 9mm , for years I did not load 223 either as I did not like handling the smaller bullets and brass .

I own quite a few 9mm pistols and only 1 carbine , I prefer the 40 and 45 carbines over the 9 , I carried a hi-power for awhile and then went back to the 1911 , It all boils down to preferences and dislikes , perceived recoil or something else , be a boring world with all 9mm pistols and no intermediate or larger .

I have seen 9mm pistols with cracks and showing the signs of pressure and abuse , hotrod anything and sooner or later it starts to come undone , maintenance and common sense keep a firearm shooting longer , but on the other hand every gun will sooner or later wear out from use or abuse .

Funny thing is when shooting pistols it was always the 40 that women did not like , well this thread has stirred up the 40 verse 9mm but seemed to be missing the 45acp is king .

Oh as to the diane f word person she was hated from the first time I saw her and heard her if it is a her , you have a good day bigslug

you would probably love my 40 sw springfield emp. It unlike the 9mm version is all steel and has a bit of weight to it and is a puppy dog to shoot.

[Lloyd Smale]

It may not be a issue for you , it is for me , but I load 9mm and I load a lot , I have a square deal b just for it , son has one to so does son in law so I guess we shoot it a lot and we stash a lot , just when it comes down to ease of handling I find the 40 and 45 to be easier .

Have worked with my hands all my life , grew up on a farm , worked highlead , slackline logging and cut timber , work on boats with wires and ropes , still do carpentry on the side , hands have took a beating , worked in a aluminum smelter years ago for awhile also , can pick up hot items and not feel it , just those small cases do not feel right and love the 380 that is always mixed in .

You missed out on all the 9mm berettas when the police switched to glocks , bought my g 34 pistols when I saw them for so low on gunbroker I could not pass up , same with the g 41 pistols and the g35 , and the ruger 9e pistols , if you watch there comes a time when someone is selling cheaper then opening bids on others and if it is a good buy I get them .

Last year the S&W M&P 40 calibers were going from one place for $250 buy now or opening bid of 240 , funny watching 2 people bid it up to 270 when the place would post another for same bids , bought 5 did not want to be greedy , needed some gifts for Christmas .

The 40 may not be for everybody just as the 9mm and 45acp are not , but it is good to have options . And yes I am a hoarder , I hoard brass and magazines and parts and reloading stuff , I know people only bought a 9mm because the military and police use it and as a option should the time ever come when it is pick up whats left laying about .


I stole one of my 22s like that. The local prison used glock 22s and switched to 19s a couple years ago. My son in law works there and they gave the guards first crack at buying them. He told me there was some left overs and he could get one for 250 bucks with one mag. I told him to go for it. I waited about 3 months and asked him when he was going to get it. He checked that night and called me and said they were all sold but had some new ones left with 3 mags in the box for 300. Talk about a no brainer!! I was one dumb sob though. I was a bit tight for money and didnt try to get more. but i guess 3 22s is enough and i would have just used it as trading material anyway.

[dla]

I think people who seriously think the recoil of 40sw matters are 9mm man-boys. Nobody else does. I've got a lot rounds in all calibers and I don't see any advantage to the 9mm.

[robertbank]

dia I will bet you a hundred dollars your double taps are faster with a 9MM over the 40 cal when both are shot with factory ammo and when accuracy is factored. That is when recoil matters. To say, as you have that a 40 year old with rhomatoid arthritus in his hands, shouler or elbow is a man boy because he prefers less recoil in his handgun is just stupid. If you didn't mean to say that then amend your post because you are not likely a stupid person.

Take Care

Bob

[Idaho45guy]

dia I will bet you a hundred dollars your double taps are faster with a 9MM over the 40 cal when both are shot with factory ammo and when accuracy is factored.

So?

[Idaho45guy]

To say, as you have that a 40 year old with rhomatoid arthritus in his hands, shouler or elbow is a man boy because he prefers less recoil in his handgun is just stupid. If you didn't mean to say that then amend your post because you are not likely a stupid person.

Take Care

Bob

Agreed. I'm young with no issues, but I see the struggle my elderly parents are having in their 70's and I can empathize that choosing the 9mm over the .40 S&W due to reduced recoil makes complete sense. For me, at this stage in my life, it does not.

[Idaho45guy]

In this video, I fired 4 different pistols in 9mm, .40 S&W, and 10mm. The fastest was the P365 at 2.80 seconds and had a group of 2 3/4".

The slowest was the G29 10mm at 2.93 seconds with a smaller group of 2 1/8".

In the real world of defensive shooting, what difference is there between .13 second of getting 5 shots on target? In professional match shooting, I guess it makes a difference, but for the other 99% of shooters, I see no reason to poo poo the .40 S&W or 10mm in regards to "split times".


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwMyfUnpf8g

[Lloyd Smale]

In the real world of defensive shooting, what difference is there between .13 second of getting 5 shots on target? absolutely NONE! Unless your name is walter middy

[robertbank]

Agreed. I'm young with no issues, but I see the struggle my elderly parents are having in their 70's and I can empathize that choosing the 9mm over the .40 S&W due to reduced recoil makes complete sense. For me, at this stage in my life, it does not.

For the win. Truth is just about any cartridge you choose will cut carboard and paper. Beyond that task things get a bit cloudy. Much often depends where you live. Up here my choices revolve around the sport I am shooting, where I am living and Wilderness Carry.

I have a 226 for home security, a GP-100 for Wilderness Carry and 30 other handguns for either playing games or shooting cans and such.

Take Care

Bpb

[robertbank]

Udaho45guy nice shooting. Your average split times run .56 being the best and .586 the slowest. The only reference I have relate to double taps mostly with 9MM guns. Most of our shooters enjoy .22 splits with two rounds into an 8 inch circle out to 10 or shorter For the best shooters that would be considered slow. So for playing the games, where speed and accuracy is everything recoil matters.

If we take a match with twelve stages requiring 18 rounds per stage, and that would be high to be fair, you would have 108 double taps. If we assume you and a mid level shooter hit the 8" circle with all your shots and your running speed and draw times are identical you lose the match by 36.72 seconds or put another way you have to run or draw at least 38 seconds faster over the match to beat joe averages time.

I have no idea how that would relate to real world defensive shooting. At seven yards if the BG intends to shoot me and his gun is out and mine is in the holster I am going to likely die. If both of our guns are out then it comes down to who shoots first and second the fastest with accuracy.. There is a reason why double taps are taught in the real world. More to the point you continue to shoot until the threat is over. One shot stoppages are not 100% ensured.

In my real world I am only really concerned about encounters with animals in the wild. Even there the chances of such an encounter are extremely rare. I do know that such an attack would be from distances inside of 10 yards and I most likely with end up getting bit if I only had my handgun to rely on. My 12 gauge, if I am carrying it, would likely be my only chance to get a round off quick enough. For the record my best times drawing a GP-100 from a holster runs 1.50 seconds wearing a jacket or vest over the holster. From the open, with no garment concealing the holster the time of draw reduces to 1.2 seconds. Those times are based upon situations when I know the timer is going to go off and using factory loaded 38spl ammunition. To those times add .22 seconds for the second shot. My double taps using 200 gr .357 or 10MM rounds are double that recorded using the 38 Spl due to recoil but the hits are the same. In the real world they are going to be slower due to a lengthening of my reaction to the threat. Now how far do you think a motivated bruin can go in those time frames (1,5 + .44 = 1.84 seconds) ? In the real world I get bit most of the time if I am relying on my handgun. In the real world bear spray is likely more effective. Based solely on power my 12 gauge is likely my best bet followed by either my .357 or 10MM. I can't draw and fire a Ruger Redhawk or A S&W 4" 629 nearly as fast as the lighter GP-100, nor can I shoot the 44 magnum as accurately.

All the above reflects is my experiences. The 9MM vs .40 debate has been beaten to death every since the 40 cal came out. If you can get back on target equally fast with both guns shoot the .40 it makes .046" bigger holes and my friend Al has told me the wounds from a 40 cal are significantly larger. For me, I have no real use for the .40 other than I can use 40 brass in my GP-100 10MM, saving my more expensive and harder to find 10MM brass for shorter practice sessions and my real world need. Shooting full power .357mag and 10MM rounds gets old real quick hence my practice sessions usually involve lightly loaded 38spl and 40 cal cartridges.

Take Care

Bob
ps The only time I needed a gun for social work involved a Model 10 in 38 S&W and it did it's job with nary a round fired due to a wise decision by a Bank robber. That's my real world.