Vintage 22 Rifles / iron sights / 50 yds / 'Good Groups' ?

[OS OK]

EXPLANATION... This is going to be another 'RABBIT HOLE' type thread...sorta like my other two threads about the Sav. MKII & the CZ452.

The difference being that we are not talking about precision rifles, rather, any vintage .22 rifle that is your favorite to shoot. That rifle that came from your GramPa or Dad or if you are an Old'Fart like myself, maybe it's your first rifle?
Could be that you just love it but haven't been shooting it because you don't think it's accurate enough and it rarely gets out of the safe any more...?

One thing I'd like to know... "What is good accuracy for; a vintage rifle + common inexpensive ammunition + iron sights + whatever handicap you have to overcome?"

I have spent more than a year now shooting precision rifles (from an entry level MKII up to a custom built CZ452) here on my home range trying to learn the art of precision.
At this point the new has worn off and I find myself turning more and more to an old favorite .22 that taught my 50 year old kids to shoot. It is one of those rifles that just 'feels right' whether your carrying it or have it shouldered.

What I would like to discover is the 'Tip's-n-Tricks' of getting good accuracy from this old rifle. I think we may discover another 'RABBIT HOLE' of information that we can all benefit from.
So...this thread is dedicated to the shooters of these old rifles . . . "What are you doing with yours to get more accuracy & enjoyment out of it?"

I have several vintage .22lr rifles but I want to start off talking about my Winchester mod. 67A & shooting for groups at 50 yards on paper.

https://i.imgur.com/PBKAS0V.jpg

Here I am tapping the dovetail sights back and forth at 25 yds. to get ready to move to the 50 yd. bench. Getting that windage alligned and discovering what difference this little slide adjustment makes at 25 & 50 yds. It is going to be part of my 'Scheme to shoot better groups'.

https://i.imgur.com/T7wpEam.jpg

I know..."eyesight is primarily going to determine our group sizes." BUT...in my 'Scheme to shoot better groups' there are no limitations to the targets we shoot. Any size, any color or combination of colors, any shape you want. The idea is to shoot at whatever size and shape that allows you to get the best POA (with your eyesight and the type of iron sight on your rifle) and resulting POI that yields the smallest consistent groups. If you have a 'trick' then use it and share it too.
I have experimented with making my own targets with these 'stickers and printed targets' trying to get that 'sight picture' that will work...

https://i.imgur.com/CBh6PQX.jpg

A year ago, this was what I was working with, it was easy to see using the traditional 'punkin on a post sight alignment' against the fluorescent green color...

https://i.imgur.com/WLNgcvC.jpg

...it was a little easier to bring that silhouette of the front bead up under that black half moon shape.

The other day I decided to change the traditional sight picture (front bead or post @ the same height as the rear 'U or V notch' and centered) ...change it to nesting the front bead in the bottom of my 'U' notch rear sight and then placing the spot on the bead...sorta like this below...

https://i.imgur.com/51Mj4KQ.jpg

I know..."not a very good drawing'' but you get the idea here. I have removed part of the sight picture I previously used keeping the top of the front bead level with the top of the rear sight. For now, this is easier just stacking the bead and the spot together like this, it's also easier to keep the stack centered.
I don't know about you guys but I can't keep my focus on the front bead alone, I am constantly keeping track of that dang spot too. If you can't break a bad habit like this then 'do something to improve it'. That's what I'm doing till I learn something new! :bigsmyl2:

In reality back at the 50 yd. bench, even this alignment is difficult. 'Theory' goes out the window and 'what works' remains...(I can't get the actual picture I want to show you, this is all canted after I crop the picture I took with the iPhone) but it does demonstrate 'almost', droping the front bead to the bottom of the 'U notch'.

https://i.imgur.com/yqisy6i.jpg

I tried this idea just the other day and got these...(also notice that my favorite target now has a white spot in the center, things change as you experiment in the Rabbit Hole!)

https://i.imgur.com/H0e7PYr.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/UzSP2EO.jpg?1

So...as far as "What is a good group"...I don't know until I see some of your groups with the 'Iron sights' but...until we determine what that really is, I am setting my goal to shoot 1" groups. That seems doable to me and I think I just might be delighted with a group that size, if I can repeat it over and over.
The bottom right target from both above pictures gives me an idea that 1" is realistic.

Well...if this thread catches on like my other two have, I think there's about a 'thousand million' different things we all can share with each other to improve our shooting with our most favorite vintage .22lr rifles...what I have opened up with here is but scratching the surface.
Remember...this thread is about us shooting vintage rifles, not the expensive precision rifles...I want to talk about and compare 'apples to apples' although almost everything we will discover here applies to all the rifles.

charlie

[johniv]

Good shootin, sir!

[Mk42gunner]

I have a soft spot in my heart for the Winchester Model 67A. It was the first real gun I ever shot, my Dad's. I have the rifle now, but as I have written before; all things considered, I'd rather have my Dad here.

I've never shot it for groups at fifty yards, and very rarely at 25. I'll have to try, I'm planning range trip next week for my birthday.

One thing I think may help grouping on paper is to make sure the sights are well blackened. I don't have one of the fancy carbide sight blackeners, but a bit of soot from a butane lighter or even better some burning masking tape should suffice.

Now to dig out some .22 LR, I think I'm about out of Shorts.

Robert

[tazman]

I think I'm about out of Shorts.

Robert

Perhaps you need to do some laundry!
Oh, sorry, you were talking about ammunition.
22shorts are hard to find around here as well as any other version of 22 ammunition.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I've always used a sight picture of the bead being even with the top of the sight's notch and centered on the target.

Old .22s are just about the very best rifles. My first, still have it in pristine condition, was a Stevens 15-A, single shot. I took much small game with it, and since I was a Po' Boy and couldn't afford lots of ammo, every shot tried to count. Truthfully, I haven't shot it for years now. Can't show you any groups, 'cause back then I didn't shoot for groups, just squirrels, serpents, etc. Photo:
288550
Click to enlarge.

Back when I was an aspiring gunsmith, but before I knew it, I purchased several Mossberg MB-42 rifles at Montgomery Ward. They were surplus and all marked "Property US Govt." They had full length stocks. I sporterized the stocks (yes, I guess I was a Bubba), refinished them as needed, and sold them to fellow employees at a place where I worked. I kept one with the full length stock, and maybe 20 years after the fact I tried it out. Note that the wind was blowing a bit, and the ammo was not match quality. I was pleased... Wish I could show a picture of the rifle, but it's in storage and I just don't have enough room to keep them all out and handy. Photo:
288547

For a few years I taught Hunter Ed, and used my FFL to purchase 4 Russian Toz-17 rifles for use by the students. After that phase had passed I decided that I'd test fire all four and keep the most accurate, sell the remaining 3. That didn't work out too well, as I still have all 4. I test fired 2 of them and both were very accurate, but one had the edge. I kept it, was amazed at how accurate it was (is) and thought it might be even better with a scope. It's likely the most accurate rifle I own of any caliber.
Photo:
288548

Of course there are exceptions to every rule, but I'd say it's hard to find a .22 rifle in good condition that won't shoot well. Some shoot very well. Old friends are the best....!

DG

[RickinTN]

I have been enjoying 22's more recently than usual. I would love to shoot iron sights more now since I can't see them any more.
Take care,
Rick

[richhodg66]

I got a pretty darn nice 67A a year or two back for a hundred bucks out the door, was really pleased with the deal.

Anyway, it shoots well, groups as well as I think I can shoot at 25 yards, but even with the rear sight all the way up, still hits just a tad low. I was wondering if it was regulated for standard velocity ammunition? I was shooting regular Aguilar stuff if I recall right.

[OS OK]

For a long time I shot this one with a buggered up front sight, no matter where I set the rear elevation adjustment it just didn't make much difference.
I took a piece of round stock and epoxied it to the buggered front post and that was better until I found a replacement sight with a gold bead and ordered it.

https://i.imgur.com/Lix9qfj.jpg

I cut the mid section from a 30-06 case and made a hood to shade that gold bead, that bead shines intensly like a tiny light.

https://i.imgur.com/6tX3vWp.jpg

Obviously the solution was to blacken the gold bead, I guess gold beads are meant for shotguns?

https://i.imgur.com/rTVo05y.jpg

Ultimately I'd like to find one of these original dovetail peep sights to replace the rear sight I have now. I've looked high and low but unless you find one on a used rifle these things are scarce as 'hen's teeth'.
I'm not sure changing them would work since my sight is dovetailed in farther up the barrel, might make that orifice too small to use?

https://i.imgur.com/r30tsOd.jpg

[richhodg66]

I like your work on that front sight and your sight hood is pretty snazzy.

I'll get a taller front sight for it eventually, I like a brass bead front sight like that too.

[Mk42gunner]

Perhaps you need to do some laundry!
Oh, sorry, you were talking about ammunition.
22shorts are hard to find around here as well as any other version of 22 ammunition.
Laundry situation is well in hand. Load in the dryer as we type.

I did think I should have reworded my post as soon as I hit the submit button...



I've always used a sight picture of the bead being even with the top of the sight's notch and centered on the target.

Old .22s are just about the very best rifles. My first, still have it in pristine condition, was a Stevens 15-A, single shot. I took much small game with it, and since I was a Po' Boy and couldn't afford lots of ammo, every shot tried to count. Truthfully, I haven't shot it for years now. Can't show you any groups, 'cause back then I didn't shoot for groups, just squirrels, serpents, etc. Photo:
288550
Click to enlarge.

Back when I was an aspiring gunsmith, but before I knew it, I purchased several Mossberg MB-42 rifles at Montgomery Ward. They were surplus and all marked "Property US Govt." They had full length stocks. I sporterized the stocks (yes, I guess I was a Bubba), refinished them as needed, and sold them to fellow employees at a place where I worked. I kept one with the full length stock, and maybe 20 years after the fact I tried it out. Note that the wind was blowing a bit, and the ammo was not match quality. I was pleased... Wish I could show a picture of the rifle, but it's in storage and I just don't have enough room to keep them all out and handy. Photo:
288547

For a few years I taught Hunter Ed, and used my FFL to purchase 4 Russian Toz-17 rifles for use by the students. After that phase had passed I decided that I'd test fire all four and keep the most accurate, sell the remaining 3. That didn't work out too well, as I still have all 4. I test fired 2 of them and both were very accurate, but one had the edge. I kept it, was amazed at how accurate it was (is) and thought it might be even better with a scope. It's likely the most accurate rifle I own of any caliber.
Photo:
288548

Of course there are exceptions to every rule, but I'd say it's hard to find a .22 rifle in good condition that won't shoot well. Some shoot very well. Old friends are the best....!

DG
MY rifle is a Savage-Springfield Model 120A, the same as your Stevens Model 15-A. If I had a nickel for every shell I shot through that rifle... I'd have a few truckloads of nickels.


I got a pretty darn nice 67A a year or two back for a hundred bucks out the door, was really pleased with the deal.

Anyway, it shoots well, groups as well as I think I can shoot at 25 yards, but even with the rear sight all the way up, still hits just a tad low. I was wondering if it was regulated for standard velocity ammunition? I was shooting regular Aguilar stuff if I recall right.

All of the Model 67 family I have seen or shot, shot pretty close to POA/POI at realistic small game ranges with the rear sight in the lowest notch, or even with the elevator removed. Maybe your long barrel is bent? Doesn't take much, and most of these guns lived a hard life.

Robert

[richhodg66]

I doubt it's bent, this one has been very well kept. I do kind of wonder if someone might have replaced the front sight at some point. Seems awfully low.

I have a 72A and 69A which both hit to POA with the sights pretty easily.

[Driver man]

I also have a TOZ17 rifle purchased new 1971 and have fired 100s of thousands of rounds. There is no blueing left and the stock is well worn. It remains the most accurate 22 sporter I have ever owned and I will never part with it.The stock still has that unusual smokey smell peculiar to the TOZ

[OS OK]

. . . and most of these guns lived a hard life.

Robert

Isn't that the gospel! I don't know where my rifle spent it's first years or how it was treated, it was pretty rough when I got it.

It hasn't been very long since I bought a bore-scope to examine the MKII & CZ452. Until then, the only idea I had about any of my bores was to clean them and put a light in the receiver and take a look down from the muzzle.
I don't know now what I ever thought about doing that...all you ever see is either a clean shiny bore or some debris left behind from cleaning. But...I used to see that shiny bore and think "all is well with the world!" (this photo is looking into the MKII, it had it's share of ugly tooling in the rifling also)

https://i.imgur.com/Z107UCf.jpg

If I had known the condition of this bore...really known it as I do now...I doubt I would have ever shot it again. Especially, since I was down the Rabbit Hole in search of accuracy with these old beauties.
About a week ago I stuck the scope in this barrel expecting to see a barrel in very good shape since it had been shooting so well before.

This is what I found..."Brace yourself...it ain't very pretty!"

https://i.imgur.com/iSSPxO7.jpg

Damage in two places at the muzzle crown...this is just one.
Also there is not one single photograph I took that didn't have barrel pitting from the muzzle to the chamber...

https://i.imgur.com/AaoOZFd.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/8KATNZ3.jpg

Even in the leade...

https://i.imgur.com/3spcYr2.jpg

and chamber...

https://i.imgur.com/gJfAe0L.jpg

This old favorite has been rode hard and put up wet too many times...I am astonished that it shoots as well as it does.
It's funny how some of us think that unless that bore is pristine, a rifle doesn't have a chance to shoot. At least I used to think that until I got the bore-scope...now I'm not sure what to think!

[Bigslug]

What I did to get myself cured of "Precision Rifle Syndrome" and increase my enjoyment, with regards to .22's:

Clean it.

Make sure it's assembled properly.

Install whatever upgrades - such as Lyman 57 and 17A sight combos - I deem appropriate to the rig

Bench it and group it to get it zeroed - usually at 50 yards.

Rarely - if ever - shoot it for group ever again.

After the inital zeroing - especially with .22 plinkers and generic ammo that I have no control over - I figure I've proven what the RIFLE is capable of, and have little desire to keep proving it. Usually in that process of zeroing, unless the rifle is VERY sick, it shoots far better off the bench than I can off hand.

Therefore I go through A LOT of .22 seeing what I am capable of, shooting water bottles, cans, empty shotgun shells, or bits of clay pigeon, at varying distances without the benefit of any more support than my elbows from field positions. MUCH more entertaining, and overall, probably more useful, than chasing the paper dragon. The only way to get a rabbit to hold still to be shot in the same eye five times is to hit him in the eye the first time - after which their should be no need for the next four.:mrgreen:

[OS OK]

What I did to get myself cured of "Precision Rifle Syndrome" and increase my enjoyment, with regards to .22's:

Clean it.

Make sure it's assembled properly.

Install whatever upgrades - such as Lyman 57 and 17A sight combos - I deem appropriate to the rig

Bench it and group it to get it zeroed - usually at 50 yards.

Rarely - if ever - shoot it for group ever again.

After the inital zeroing - especially with .22 plinkers and generic ammo that I have no control over - I figure I've proven what the RIFLE is capable of, and have little desire to keep proving it. Usually in that process of zeroing, unless the rifle is VERY sick, it shoots far better off the bench than I can off hand.

Therefore I go through A LOT of .22 seeing what I am capable of, shooting water bottles, cans, empty shotgun shells, or bits of clay pigeon, at varying distances without the benefit of any more support than my elbows from field positions. MUCH more entertaining, and overall, probably more useful, than chasing the paper dragon. The only way to get a rabbit to hold still to be shot in the same eye five times is to hit him in the eye the first time - after which their should be no need for the next four.:mrgreen:

I think that's an excellent way to enjoy your shooting. Offhand is the real test of your skill. I've had opportunity in the past, when I lived in SoCal to shoot in the nearby desert where infinite ranges are possible and you could shoot anything you wanted. I do enjoy camping in the desert and shooting the whole time, especially so when the kids were young.
Today it's a different story. Where I live here on this mountain ridge, I have neighbors all around on 5 to 30 acre parcels...I have to keep them in mind so I built a backstop and a lead catcher so I could shoot here at home.

https://i.imgur.com/rcBWBH9.jpg?1

That's my older brother helping install it into the rail tie backstop.
This is my limiting factor, this having neighbors all around...but still I try to mix it up some from time to time when I'm board with the "Precision Rifle Syndrome" as you call it.
I try challenges from time to time and sometimes invent a challenge just for grins & giggles.

In the past, I've put 10 nails up and tried to shoot as many as I can with 10 shots...

https://i.imgur.com/B2Hh2Ki.jpg

I've tried the same thing with some brass shim stock I used in place of playing cards...try to split them...

https://i.imgur.com/r8GMmvX.jpg

I tried setting pennies in the backboard on edge...

https://i.imgur.com/Si5P3pQ.jpg

tried to hit them all with the least amount of shots...

https://i.imgur.com/aNLbmzD.jpg

Then a friend thought up a game challenge...trying to shoot through a life saver without hitting & breaking it...I super glued 10 life savers to a card and gave that a try...

https://i.imgur.com/BQFQ25z.jpg

That took some time, the hole in a life saver is .285"...I finally got through on the 51'st & 57'th shots...that took some time to do but it was a fun challenge I thought I might never get done.

https://i.imgur.com/GLSkpcH.jpg

Over at Dayattherange.com Eli has a number of challenges, all fun and challenging...even for us old bench rest shooters...

https://i.imgur.com/B3TMkTC.jpg

So...even though I am limited in what I can do here, I still have some fun too.
One thing that is a constant challenge is the wind and how you handle that...something that affects all shooters with or without that "Precision Rifle Syndrome", there's lots of possibilities, I think the 'bottom line' with all this is to have fun and try to learn something every day.

[tazman]

Maybe it's just my age catching up with me, but there seems to be more good shooting old rifles(25 years or older) than there are good shooting new rifles(last 15 years).

When a company builds a rifle to a price point, it is hard to get the quality that seems so common in the old rifles.
Those old rifles were never built with a "use it and throw it away" attitude. Even the "cheap" ones were made to last and do their job well. Unless they have been mistreated, they still do.

You would think modern machinery and technology would allow perfect barrels to be made easily and inexpensively. That doesn't seem to be the case.

[Pressman]

As an accumulator of vintage 22's this going to be a fun thread to follow and try to emulate. The iron sight issue has confined me to 25 yard plinking, though the recent purchase of a Lyman Sight Pal will change that.

There's one month left in our outdoor shooting season and several rifles that need to be fired.

Ken

[OS OK]

As an accumulator of vintage 22's this going to be a fun thread to follow and try to emulate. The iron sight issue has confined me to 25 yard plinking, though the recent purchase of a Lyman Sight Pal will change that.

There's one month left in our outdoor shooting season and several rifles that need to be fired.

Ken

joe leadslinger... told me about those Sight Pals last week. I thought about it some and tried to make a facsimile I could try out.
I used a heat gun to bend the lid of a box of Eley so it would hang over my lens in my glasses.

https://i.imgur.com/YZRFLmh.jpg

I figured where the hole needed to be and drilled that...

https://i.imgur.com/HfJS3A6.jpg

and not only did I look silly trying to use it but it slid off every time I bent down to get on the comb... :bigsmyl2:

https://i.imgur.com/yZcs1Vp.jpg

[rbuck351]

My favorite vintage 22 is a Savage 1919 NRA match rifle. It is capable of about 1/2" 50 yd groups with Peters bulk ammo but with iron sights I am not. I have scopes on everything I have that needs more than hunting accuracy. With a good set of target iron sights I might keep the groups a bit under 2". I like the idea of a postal shoot but iron sights put me on the side lines.

[Bigslug]

Part of my answer to the OP's question and aging eyeballs was to buy a CZ 452 Ultra Lux - - the current equivalent being the 457 Jaguar. While it isn't technically old, it IS old-school. The open sights are big, square, black, highly adjustable, and the front one is at the end of 28.5" inches of barrel where it should at least somewhat be getting into the field of your distance-corrected vision. While I have short and long barrel .22's that use the classic U-notch / bead sight combo, and I will continue to shoot them, it's that CZ that lets me largely forget the physical limitations and pretend I'm 10 with my (open) iron sights again.

If your gun is tapped for a receiver peep, that, plus the addition of a Lyman 17A front (hooded ring) and a Merit iris-adjustable aperture in the rear can make a WORLD of difference. I did this to my Winchester 69A, choosing a post insert for the front sight (instead of a bullseye-appropriate ring) for better field shooting. That gives you the same extremely intuitive "align-two-rings/bullet-hits-the-post" sight picture as the HK combat rifles combined with the long sight radius provided by the 25" barrel that seemed to be the common thing in the industry back then.

Shooting the old OEM sights for group in crappy light is usually a loosing proposition, so choosing your day helps. Smoking your front sight may also be a useful endeavor, since for a lot of us it's blurry and gold or silver beads only add to the halo and take away our contrast.

[OS OK]

Part of my answer to the OP's question and aging eyeballs was to buy a CZ 452 Ultra Lux - - the current equivalent being the 457 Jaguar. While it isn't technically old, it IS old-school. The open sights are big, square, black, highly adjustable, and the front one is at the end of 28.5" inches of barrel where it should at least somewhat be getting into the field of your distance-corrected vision. While I have short and long barrel .22's that use the classic U-notch / bead sight combo, and I will continue to shoot them, it's that CZ that lets me largely forget the physical limitations and pretend I'm 10 with my (open) iron sights again.

If your gun is tapped for a receiver peep, that, plus the addition of a Lyman 17A front (hooded ring) and a Merit iris-adjustable aperture in the rear can make a WORLD of difference. I did this to my Winchester 69A, choosing a post insert for the front sight (instead of a bullseye-appropriate ring) for better field shooting. That gives you the same extremely intuitive "align-two-rings/bullet-hits-the-post" sight picture as the HK combat rifles combined with the long sight radius provided by the 25" barrel that seemed to be the common thing in the industry back then.

Shooting the old OEM sights for group in crappy light is usually a loosing proposition, so choosing your day helps. Smoking your front sight may also be a useful endeavor, since for a lot of us it's blurry and gold or silver beads only add to the halo and take away our contrast.

Excellent posting, thanks for all the information here.
Tuesday I'll know for sure...but I have a line on a 67A that has the factory installed peep on it. Going to take the bore scope & go visit my favorite GunSmith (fingers crossed!)

[OS OK]

Here's a little video I thought you fellas might enjoy...Meet the Montana Craftsmen Who Made the Quigley Rifle
It shares one thing we all have in common in this thread...the love for the iron sight & striving to master it...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeJ-eoM-Ry4

[Bigslug]

I think your bore scope - while handy - may tend to place your thinking on pathways that may not be productive to follow.

A boogered-up crown is a problem, as is a true rusted sewer pipe, as is a ringed/bulged bore caused by a squib - all of which will be visible without a magic camera.

Beyond all that though, accuracy is about CONSISTENT actions happening inside the bore. Small pits, frosting, throat wear, etc... will be there on the first shot or the 5,000th, so they are probably not worth rejecting a rifle out of hand over, and certainly not worth sleeving such a rifle over without considering how it shoots left as is.

In my armory tool kit at work, I have both a 5.56 commercial throat erosion gauge, and the military equivalent. The commercial gauge has a series of hash marks about 1/10" of an inch apart for maybe 2 to 2.5 inches. The first of those hash marks is your "zero" line and the second is your "one". You use the front of your AR-15's ejection port as a reference mark - a brand new barrel will usually stop the gauge at about 1 or 1.5. Our full auto guns in SWAT service for a decade will eat that gauge all the way down to 6 or 7.

You might be concerned by that until you see the military gauge. It uses a different reference point, but the principle is the same. It has a marking which says something like "reject for overseas deployment" that signifies literally INCHES of wear past the point that the erosion marks quit on the commercial gauge. In short, Uncle Sam regards an M16 with 4-6" of flamed-out throat as still being capable of taking an enemy off the field at several hundred meters, barring any other problems with the barrel, and you don't have any real indicator of how a pretty or ugly bore will shoot until you shoot it. As long as whatever passes for a throat funnels the bullet and the rest of the bore spins it consistently, it stands a chance of delivering the goods.

[tazman]

You asked about group sizes. Here is my take on that just for myself.
Iron sights, for me, are hunting grade equipment, not target level. Particularly with the open sights that came on the vast majority of older rifles that were not match grade.
That said, I would consider groups about the size of a squirrels head to be good groups. If you could consistently take a squirrel with a head shot at 50 yards, no matter how you were holding/resting the rifle, that is good shooting.
Basically, anything under 2 inch groups at 50 yards with iron sights is good shooting.
I have proven that many of my old 22LR rifles are capable of much better than that with standard hunting ammo. I need to find out if I am capable of that with iron sights.
I may be in for some disappointment.

[Bigslug]

You asked about group sizes. Here is my take on that just for myself.
Iron sights, for me, are hunting grade equipment, not target level. Particularly with the open sights that came on the vast majority of older rifles that were not match grade.
That said, I would consider groups about the size of a squirrels head to be good groups. If you could consistently take a squirrel with a head shot at 50 yards, no matter how you were holding/resting the rifle, that is good shooting.
Basically, anything under 2 inch groups at 50 yards with iron sights is good shooting.
I have proven that many of my old 22LR rifles are capable of much better than that with standard hunting ammo. I need to find out if I am capable of that with iron sights.
I may be in for some disappointment.

The key is to not retreat back to the sandbags and keeping yourself in the standing position, while holding yourself to those same standards . . .even after you realize that you suck at it. It's the only way to get better.

This is the real beauty of the .22 - it lets you affordably work your way through these problems. Like I said earlier, proving what the RIFLE is capable of is not the entire story.

[OS OK]

I wasn't taking the bore-scope in consideration of having it sleeved or re-worked in any way. Only thing I have for a gauge is to compare it to the barrel I have now. I see already what my 'sewer pipe' can do even hindered by my poor sight alignment and such with the iron sights.
That's pretty much the only consideration of looking that rifle over, well...that and the bolt. The stock may need re-sanding to re-float the barrel due to old age and stock warp but I consider that just part of a tune up before shooting to see how well it will do.
I've pretty much decided to buy it anyway...I've already handled it and looked the stock over and all looks pretty well considering the age. They have it locked on a cable so I wasn't able to feel what the trigger feels like or see/listen to how well it strikes an empty case.
I'll find out Tuesday whether it's still chained up in the corner with all the other unwanted old relics.

As far as your being against the sand bags or rest and insisting on standing freehand and shooting exclusively in that style, consider that some of us old'Dawgs have been ridden hard and put up wet too many times. Been too wild and crazy all of our lives with various sports or rodeo or have work related injuries and we now have some real handicaps to overcome. Standing for me is out because of a back fusion on 3 levels, if I stand too long or suddenly give a left twist to look back at something, I'll impinge & inflame my sciatic nerve in about 2 shakes and then I'm done for the day.

Considerations like these are just as important as having good eyes and us old'Farts just manage a little differently. But...we are still shooting and handloading/casting and enjoying ourselves.
This is where you more agile folks can add to the thread, do your shooting by whatever standards you want to apply, then take some pictures to give us all a measure of your success at it.
This doesn't have to be, nor do I want it to be all one flavor of style...the only thing I do want to remain consistent is the fact that we are all shooting iron sights. Pick the yardage you can see at well and have at it.
Get those old .22's out and enjoy them...show us what you got & what you do with it?
Set the bar should another fella want to try your particular gig? Give them some 'hints-n-tricks' for success?

I thought I covered this in the opening thread but I may have not? Threads morph as they go longer and longer...no telling what we may be discussing next week?

I did both of these threads;
New to using a 'F-CLASS BR' at 50 yards... https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?420138-New-to-using-a-F-CLASS-BR-at-50-yards
New to using a 'PEEP & GLOBE' at 50 yards... https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?411925-New-to-using-a-PEEP-amp-GLOBE-at-50-yards

You would not believe all the various subjects that came up, all the hints-n-tips and general information in those subjects. I would like this thread to be as successful as those but in the vintage rifle and shooting better and most important...having fun with it.

[Ithaca Gunner]

Winchester M-69A target. It just plain works.

288615

[Bigslug]

If not standing, it's worth playing with sitting while bracing your upper arms against your torso - stuff like that. It actually manages to be pretty good low impact exercise, just manipulating a light to medium weight rifle around in and out of position repeatedly. It won't get you anywhere in the Olympic Free Weights competition, but putting a hundred .22's through a Winchester 67's cycle of operations without putting it down, while turning right or left to splat various bits of junk amounts to a fair workout that's pretty easily contained to whatever your limits are.

Ask me how I know this:razz:

288616

[Mk42gunner]

The last time I ran a borescope down anything was sometime in the late 1980's when SIMA came aboard to look at our 5"/54's. As long as the crown on a rifle looks good, maybe with magnification, I'm okay with it.

Sometimes I think we shooters have been cross-contaminated with fisherman's disease, only instead of more lures in the tackle box, we think we need more expensive and specific tools.

Well, that and I'm cheap and don't want to pay for a bore scope.

Robert

[Pressman]

Borescopes are useful and can locate some serious issues not seen by looking through the bore.

Case 1: I have a Stevens Visible Loader that I brought home 3 weeks ago with a good crown and a clean, shiny bore. But the 6 inches in front of the chamber is leaded so badly there is no rifling. I have to clean it before I even think of shooting it.

Case 2: I have a vintage gunsmith built BR-50 rifle that won't group. The bore inspection shows a badly pitted barrel from the muzzle back to a few inches in front of the chamber. This is a new barrel and was bad when used for this build. It will have to be barreled.

Without a borescope I would have been seriously handicapped sorting out the accuracy issues caused by a bad bore. It is a worthwhile tool to have if tinkering with vintage 22's.

Ken

[OS OK]

Borescopes are useful and can locate some serious issues not seen by looking through the bore.

Case 1: I have a Stevens Visible Loader that I brought home 3 weeks ago with a good crown and a clean, shiny bore. But the 6 inches in front of the chamber is leaded so badly there is no rifling. I have to clean it before I even think of shooting it.

Case 2: I have a vintage gunsmith built BR-50 rifle that won't group. The bore inspection shows a badly pitted barrel from the muzzle back to a few inches in front of the chamber. This is a new barrel and was bad when used for this build. It will have to be barreled.

Without a borescope I would have been seriously handicapped sorting out the accuracy issues caused by a bad bore. It is a worthwhile tool to have if tinkering with vintage 22's.

Ken

I've often wondered what a pitted & fouled up black powder bore would look like. These 67's were made from 1940 ~ 1963 so I doubt it ever saw a diet of any black powder rounds? Evidently a lot of changes and innovations happened from 1900 to as late as 1940 concerning the various sizes of .22 ammo but I couldn't find where they changed the powder to smokeless. It could be this bore saw some black powder .22 ammo since it's chambered for shorts, longs and long rifle. It'd only take a few negligent cleanings and the deed would have been done I expect?

The pitting in this barrel looks like it could have been a poor batch of steel and segments just eroded away that weren't smelted well into the mixture (I don't know spit about making steel, I'm spitwadding here)

But I am glad to have the bore-scope, it was cheap, works well and satisfies my curiosity of such things. Well worth the purchase.


If not standing, it's worth playing with sitting while bracing your upper arms against your torso - stuff like that. It actually manages to be pretty good low impact exercise, just manipulating a light to medium weight rifle around in and out of position repeatedly. It won't get you anywhere in the Olympic Free Weights competition, but putting a hundred .22's through a Winchester 67's cycle of operations without putting it down, while turning right or left to splat various bits of junk amounts to a fair workout that's pretty easily contained to whatever your limits are.

Ask me how I know this:razz:

288616

Believe me I know the positions well...I was a JarHead back in 71

[dverna]

An interesting thread I will be following.

My oldest .22 is the one my dad gave me over 55 years ago. When I had enough money from working at the grocery store I bought a V22 scope for it and removed the iron sights...which I likely kept but cannot find and will never put back on. Turned 71 yesterday, so these old eyes can only shoot peeps and scopes.

And that old girl needs a bit of work as she has a weak firing spring and gets about 20% FTF's. Just been too lazy to get her fixed and parts are not easy to find. She will do about 1.5" at 50 yards with bulk ammunition.

I am currently having fun shooting PCP's so I will remain an interested by-stander. Plus I am cheap...too cheap to burn up "junk" .22's that are selling for over $50/brick to get 1.5" groups at 50 yards when the air gun is averaging less than 3/4" with "premium" pellets ($18/500) and an inch with $12 Crosman's.

[OS OK]

In trying to find information on when they changed from black ffff powder to smokeless I found this interesting article.

A Brief History of .22 Rimfire Ammunition
By Chuck Hawks

https://www.chuckhawks.com/history_rimfire_ammo.htm

[303Guy]

Interesting thread topic!

Well, I might just have one or two old rifles lying around. Three Toz 17's, four Slazenger single shots, a Voere, 1930's Mauser and so on.

To see what one Slazenger can do, I epoxied a scope rail on.
https://i.postimg.cc/MZMmkRb4/DSCF3065-1.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

It actually shot quite well. I did that so as to know what the rifle can do before beating myself up over lousy groups with open sights. Having played around with open sights a bit, I have come to realize that the shape, size and position of the rear sight is all important to my eyes. If I get the rear sight right, the front blade comes into perfect focus while looking at the target. Lighting is important. I plan on fitting a shield over the rear sights when I get to it.

And this is what my little Slazenger can do with a scope. This is the bench mark.
https://i.postimg.cc/nVDVqwTz/DSCF3146.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

This is the first one that I got to actually fire every shot. Weak firing pin spring. I'll be ordering more for the others sometime soon.

Next trick is to see what my eyes can do with it. I know I can't see the sights all that well so I'll be working on those but still, the idea is to see just what I can do with it as it is.

So the thing with these Slazengers is that they are small and light and just feel nice to shoot with.

My one Toz 17 has produced some nice groups with a scope. I've taken the scope off now for open sight shooting. I know how it shoots (very well) and it has almose ideal sights for my eyes. My second Toz 17 has what looks like a mint bore. I pulled it out of hiding two or three days ago. I'll be putting it back together and it will share a bolt with the other Toz (yeah, I got given it sans a bolt). My Toz 17-1 has a dodgy trigger so I haven't been able to assess its accuracy. I'll get to that one sometime. It's a scope only rifle because the rear sight is missing although I'm sure I can make some to suite my eyes sometime.

My Remington 512 is a scope only rifle and my 510 and 511 are still being accurized using a scope but they will probably become a target sight rifle and an open sight rifle just for target shooting. They have both produced quite nice groups but also some not so good so there is something going on that needs working on.

All in all, these old 22's a great fun!

[OS OK]

303Guy.... "Where the heck have you been?"
Glad to see'Ya posting again. Say...that group is dang nice, looks like several more than 5 in there? Is that 25 or 50 yards? More???
Can you post a good picture of that Slazenger ? I never saw one...heck, never even heard of one.
Looks like we'll have some interesting old vintage rifles showing up in here.

Welcome back...charlie

[OS OK]

I pulled another Vintage rifle from the safe today... It's a 'Wards Western Field 46D' - .22 short-long-long rifle. Actually, it's a Mossberg 42C made from 1938 ~ 1941 (I would imagine WWII put an end to it's manufacture as Mossberg probabally had to use all their manufacturing abilities for the war effort? Not sure about that, just spitwadding.)

80 years old at a minimum, it's pretty crusty...was crusty back in 62 when Dad brought it home for me, don't know where he got it?

https://i.imgur.com/jAZhmhM.jpg

It is still sweet to shoot, much heavier and feels more like a CF rifle than the Win67D. It has a 24" barrel and a 1lb. 2oz. trigger that is crisp with no slack.

https://i.imgur.com/zVU2GW0.jpg

The rear sight is a square notch with windage & elevation controls on the sight...

https://i.imgur.com/DsmT1aS.jpg

The front sight used to be some kind of bead but the bead is long gone & now it's a square top post...actually it's a good match for the rear, pretty easy to align and set that spot on top.

https://i.imgur.com/amwYZOh.jpg

I got the candle out and gave them a proper 'smoke job' for today's shooting...

I started with the same type targets from yesterday, not knowing exactly where it would hit, I started out with the warmer spot on the bottom center (just in case). It was pretty close.

https://i.imgur.com/HCIcjHj.jpg

These spots seemed too buisy for this sight combination. I remembered a quote from a movie, I think...'The Patriot' where he sets up an ambush and tells his sons..."Aim small, miss small." err, somthing like that. So...I set up a different card for the second go-round today with that quote in mind...

https://i.imgur.com/FNHLFME.jpg

These are 2" & 3" 'shoot-n-see' stick-on targets. I like the size but don't like the blow-out of the impact, makes them hard to measure. I'm looking for some 3" black round stickers like the 2" ones I have.
I think I'll be spending some time cleaning this old rifle up. The stock needs sanding in the barrel channel, it'll barely pass a piece of paper from the front of the forearm to the front of the action.
QUESTION: - Does anyone have a recipe for removing rust without removing what little blueing that's there? I'd like to restore the steel as best as I can.

thanks ... charlie

[Ithaca Gunner]

I pulled another Vintage rifle from the safe today... It's a 'Wards Western Field 46D' - .22 short-long-long rifle. Actually, it's a Mossberg 42C made from 1938 ~ 1941 (I would imagine WWII put an end to it's manufacture as Mossberg probabally had to use all their manufacturing abilities for the war effort? Not sure about that, just spitwadding.)

80 years old at a minimum, it's pretty crusty...was crusty back in 62 when Dad brought it home for me, don't know where he got it?

https://i.imgur.com/jAZhmhM.jpg

It is still sweet to shoot, much heavier and feels more like a CF rifle than the Win67D. It has a 24" barrel and a 1lb. 2oz. trigger that is crisp with no slack.

https://i.imgur.com/zVU2GW0.jpg

The rear sight is a square notch with windage & elevation controls on the sight...

https://i.imgur.com/DsmT1aS.jpg

The front sight used to be some kind of bead but the bead is long gone & now it's a square top post...actually it's a good match for the rear, pretty easy to align and set that spot on top.

https://i.imgur.com/amwYZOh.jpg

I got the candle out and gave them a proper 'smoke job' for today's shooting...

I started with the same type targets from yesterday, not knowing exactly where it would hit, I started out with the warmer spot on the bottom center (just in case). It was pretty close.

https://i.imgur.com/HCIcjHj.jpg

These spots seemed too buisy for this sight combination. I remembered a quote from a movie, I think...'The Patriot' where he sets up an ambush and tells his sons..."Aim small, miss small." err, somthing like that. So...I set up a different card for the second go-round today with that quote in mind...

https://i.imgur.com/FNHLFME.jpg

These are 2" & 3" 'shoot-n-see' stick-on targets. I like the size but don't like the blow-out of the impact, makes them hard to measure. I'm looking for some 3" black round stickers like the 2" ones I have.
I think I'll be spending some time cleaning this old rifle up. The stock needs sanding in the barrel channel, it'll barely pass a piece of paper from the front of the forearm to the front of the action.
QUESTION: - Does anyone have a recipe for removing rust without removing what little blueing that's there? I'd like to restore the steel as best as I can.

thanks ... charlie

I got a Mossberg 42B around here someplace, shoots very well, as good as it did when we were kids with good eyes!

[Mk42gunner]

...[B]QUESTION: - Does anyone have a recipe for removing rust without removing what little blueing that's there? I'd like to restore the steel as best as I can.

thanks ... charlie

I haven't done it yet, so proceed at your own risk.

According to Mark Novak on youtube; you need to boil it for 20-30 minutes, then card it with a fine wire wheel. The red rust converts to black oxide (bluing) by boiling.

Let us know if you try it.

Unfortunately my range day tomorrow got cancelled, for couple of reasons: 1. My cousin called and needs help moving a Shopsmith she bought, and offere a free (yeah right) birthday dinner. Okay.

And 2. As I was going to the store to get dog food this evening, I had my rear driveshaft fall out of the pickup. Luckily it was the rear U-joint that broke, so no pogo sticking, and I was in front of a parts store. better yet, its a four wheel drive so I wasn't stuck working on it on the side of the road.

Robert

[TCFAN]

I just found this thread. My Only "vintage" 22 rifle is a Winchester model 62. Serial number says it was made in 1937. I traded into it about 50 years ago and it has always been a fine plinking rifle. It came with a old Lyman tang sight and I put a Lyman 17-A on the front.

I took it out today to see how it would group at 50 yards with 10 shot groups. The ammo I used was my last box of Wal-Mart Federal 550 bulk pack.I don't see iron sights all that well anymore so that is my excuse for the targets in the photos.

https://i.imgur.com/BAJHolu.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/xosLNTk.jpg

[Bigslug]

In trying to find information on when they changed from black ffff powder to smokeless . . .

Gave that a quick skim - didn't see the answer to another relevant question: What were the various priming compounds used and when did they quit being corrosive?

[Bigslug]

I just found this thread. My Only "vintage" 22 rifle is a Winchester model 62. Serial number says it was made in 1937.

Now THAT is very cool to me for the following:
288907

My Winchester 1906 has to be one of the very last ones, and your 62 has to be one of the very first. I don't recall the exact answer I got from Cody, but it was probably tail-end production clean up of spare parts, as the serial number didn't exactly jive with the usual charts.

Relevant to this thread in that it is THE gun that I bought specifically to get me out of the accuracy mania I was in during my Highpower days. I looked at my heavy barrel, globe-sighted, magazine-converted Marlin 2000 that I used to simulate the large bore course, the spotting scope, the leather coat, mid-grade match ammo, etc... and said to myself "YOU have forgotten how to just go out and have fun with a rifle!"

That one gets the random, mixed assortments of .22, sometimes with Shorts and Long Rifles in the tube at the same time - if the can falls over, accuracy expectations have been met.[smilie=w:

[303Guy]

Hi OS. Yeah, I've been out of it for a while. Not too well. I suspect I had an adverse reaction to the vax but it could have been something else entirely. Anyway, when I felt well enough OI went and had my second dose and there were no side effects at all.

Lighting hasn't been too good today, what with the rainy weather we are having. I did the best I could inside my workshop.

Here is the girl that did that not too bad group. And you are right, those were more than five. I would have fired ten with the first being out of group. Range was only 25m so not quite Olympic standards but it gives me a benchmark to strive for with open sights.

https://i.postimg.cc/3wvhSqML/DSCF3548.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/bJ1zJB3G/DSCF3549.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

This is another one. Further down you'll see how some previous owner did a bit of 'customizing'. It look like Mauri art. Kinda cool having someone's history in a rifle. I'm guessing whoever did it might have had it from new or perhaps it was a hand down but anyway, it's actually quite nicely done and feels rather good to hold. It adds character to the gun.
https://i.postimg.cc/L5RmZ3bx/DSCF3550.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/wMVg5sKg/DSCF3551.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/HW4Y1FrR/DSCF3552.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/5tY9c0zS/DSCF3541.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[303Guy]

Here's how my love affair with these Slazengers began. My then 9 or 10 year old great nephew was just getting into guns and hunting and Christmas was coming up so I found a single shot rifle for him and did it up as best I could. This is it.

https://i.postimg.cc/gJbwPYSv/Caleb_s_Rifle_002.jpg (https://postimg.cc/B8NZTGG6)

It's a really nice little rifle and so sweet to shoot. Very accurate too.

So I decided to find another one and do something similar. I never did do the something similar but instead, found a few more. What can I Say? 22's are fun! [smilie=l:

With this little rifle plus his step dad and input from me, he has grown into a fine young man. Yup. Between us we saved him from certain doom. Well, I contributed in some not too small way, anyhow. So yeah, these Slazengers have some meaning to me.

And looking at that photo, I'm thinking I must do one of mine just like that. 8-) That by the way, is a boiled linseed oil finish, done over the original wood with light sanding. It took weeks of oiling and rubbing and polishing with steel wool because my nephew in law didn't believe me when I said the wood needs to be fine sanded then wiped with a wet cloth to raise the 'fur' then re-fine sanded and wet cloth and re-sand until polished. But I found a way to polish it after oiling, that being the fine steel wool.

[OS OK]

303Guy...Something about those rifles reinds me of a Remington single shot (mod.33?) they shoot well, not doubt. I like that tribal checkering, don't you wish it could talk and tell you where that came from. Good job saving that kid to a smokey future!

Mk42gunner... I've seen that method & I like the results but it would be quite an undertaking to make a vertical tube to boil in.
I used instead, 0000 steel wool and Hoppes...came out pretty well with a minimum of white metal. She still looks old but she doesn't sport any rust now.
thanks

TCFAN...I am envious...that is a beautiful piece of craftsmanship. Nice shooting!

Bigslug...I hadn't thought of corrosive primers, that could be what happened?

. . . . . .

Got out today...and had another practice. With iron sights, I have a new morning preparation added to the routine of chamber swabbing, I am blackening the sights...

https://i.imgur.com/uVMsAjV.jpg https://i.imgur.com/PBy5PV3.jpg

Also working on a repeatable cheek weld & am not there yet...I should add a little riser piece to index against but I am stubborn and am experimenting with getting just the right amount 'cheek meat' under my cheek bone. I am struggling with changing elevation because of that.

https://i.imgur.com/8PJsbpN.jpg

Results...I like the 2" spots best right now...they seem easiest to set atop the front square top blade...(don't ask about the top right spot! I think I was having a brain fart or something...adjusting the sights in the wrong direction! :bigsmyl2: )

https://i.imgur.com/Q500wi3.jpg

I've added 2 more spots, 8 now instead of the 6 I have been shooting. Now the practice doesn't go so quickly, feels like I get a little more for my time spent...

https://i.imgur.com/X8lvlK1.jpg

That's it for today, I took the rifle down and did the steel wool & Hoppes after practice. I'll have to back down to the 25 yd. bench and re-sight the rifle from scratch since I had taken the adjustable rear sight off and de-rusted it.
If all goes well, I hope to be in that 1" group size soon..."fingers crossed!"

[303Guy]

Hey OS. That's some mighty fine shooting! Ok now see if you can do it off hand. :mrgreen:

Once upon a time, I could actually shoot quite well off hand. I remember shooting with a friends Remington 512. I could shoot as well with it as I could my own scoped 512. The targets were pebbles in a dry river bed. That gave an advantage of only requiring hitting in front of the pebbles to make them jump. Lot's of fun! and of course the great thing about shooting pebbles is there was no record of a bad shot! [smilie=1: But as I recall, neither me or my mate missed any pebbles. We wouldn't dare miss - we were competing with each other. :mrgreen: And he was a good shot. It wasn't his rifle though. It was a cousins or uncle's of his. I wish he could have acquired it.

[303Guy]

These Slazenger were made by Lithgow in Australia for Slazenger. The barrel is 'ordinance steel' and it is tough! It took quite some doing to cut that barrel down with a hacksaw.

The barrel and action is actually one piece. A very simple design. It was a manual cocking design which I thought was ideal for the young fellow.

Here he is retrieving rabbits is step-dad shot.

https://i.postimg.cc/Z5LsTF8T/IMG00946-20110819-1631.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

and here is feral piglet his step-dad shot with his little Slazenger.

https://i.postimg.cc/zGppmDNv/IMG01921-20120128-1750.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

It's fun looking through these old photo's and reminiscing.

[Bigslug]

These Slazenger were made by Lithgow in Australia for Slazenger.

The barrel and action is actually one piece. A very simple design. It was a manual cocking design...

Sounds like a local copy of the Winchester 67 - - interestingly, the Cody Museum has a 67 version that they put together for some Aussie youth group - - complete with military "musket" wood and a bayonet.

That's extremely cool stuff .303. We yanks grew up at the feet of the WWI and WWII generations with a lot of real "Golden Age" rimfires. It's neat to see the international equivalent "nostalgia guns" from around the world.

I worked in gun shops from '92 to '05. In the early part of that, we had Lithgow #2's in the teak stocks come through in pretty much new condition. Unfortunately, a gun shop salary paired with a Highpower Rifle competition habit stymied purchase of a lot of the types of guns I'm now into. My timing SUCKS!

And OS. . .your timing SUCKS! :wink: You launched this thread when I'm in deer season prep mode. Gonna be November before I can really play this game of yours.

Corrosive primers vs. black? Who knows? When I was a kid in the '70's and '80's, money was somewhat tight. Dad kept me in .22, but not the mountains of it I would have liked. Consequently, whatever ammo from whatever source at least got tried - - including green-brass, powdered-bullet rounds that could have been out of Rameses I's personal smallbore stash. The black powder stuff was copper cased and as I recall, split open on firing so I dumped the remainder of that in a drainage ditch. Smokeless but corrosive? All I can say is that by the time the 510 got sleeved, an untold number of kids from 1957 to 2000 had learned to shoot on it, and it was TIRED! Probably not an uncommon story for shooters of our vintage.

[dverna]

Charlie,

I have used black fingernail polish on the bead of my shotgun to blacken it. It stays on well but can be removed it desired. It might be too "glossy" for a rifle sight but worth a try.

[OS OK]

Sitting in the shop this fine day having a cold brew & measuring and marking the targets I shot today...getting ready to post for tonight on what I was working on today...
Suddenly...I'm hearing this voice in my mind, it's not one of my usual voices I hear? Who is this nagging on me? Here it is again...

...."Therefore I go through A LOT of .22 seeing what I am capable of, shooting water bottles, cans, empty shotgun shells, or bits of clay pigeon, at varying distances without the benefit of any more support than my elbows from field positions. MUCH more entertaining, and overall, probably more useful, than chasing the paper dragon."

I remember this..but who is that?

...."That one gets the random, mixed assortments of .22, sometimes with Shorts and Long Rifles in the tube at the same time - if the can falls over, accuracy expectations have been met."

Then I hear...

...."And OS. . .your timing SUCKS! You launched this thread when I'm in deer season prep mode. Gonna be November before I can really play this game of yours."

Oh, heck...that's the Bigslug ! Now I remember.

Well...Pard, this ain't no one-way deal here..."Let me accommodate you & 'Your Game'...how about that?"


https://i.imgur.com/ytED3wZ.jpg

I think I'll take 5 shots from each of the positions...'standing...sitting, legs crossed & prone'. (No biggie...heck, I qualified as 'Expert Marksman' and high shooter in my Company back in 1971...even got a cheapo little shooting medal when I graduated boot. I'll show this guy!)
Here we go Bigslug...'standing'...

https://i.imgur.com/ongkDb4.jpg

Now sitting with my legs crossed, another 5 shots, Boy I'm tearing this can up!...(dang-it, I don't remember a big belly in the way back then? Oh well heck, 'adapt and overcome', that's what us Marines do!...I can do this!)

https://i.imgur.com/C6znzwe.jpg

Ah...now prone, one of my favorite positions! (I hope I can count all the hits on that can I'm shredding!)

https://i.imgur.com/ep3xe37.jpg

"Now Mr. Bigslug....before we start counting holes in the can, I want to tell you that I don't mind going to extreme trouble as I go out of my way to accommodate you boys that post here in my little thread. You might say...."I would even 'humiliate myself' to keep a good & honest thread going here...(should that ever happen, but I 'post'em like I shoot'em')...oh well...nuff said about that.
BUT...Know this also, GOD really loves us old'Fat'Farts...He helped me in a couple ways today. First He helped me into positions I haven't been in for 50 years! I hardly felt any pain!
And secondly...GOD made it easy for me to count all the holes in that can! "This is for your satisfaction Pard! Start counting..."

https://i.imgur.com/4UR0k3E.jpg

charlie . . . :bigsmyl2:

[NEKVT]

Ultimately I'd like to find one of these original dovetail peep sights to replace the rear sight I have now. I've looked high and low but unless you find one on a used rifle these things are scarce as 'hen's teeth'.
I'm not sure changing them would work since my sight is dovetailed in farther up the barrel, might make that orifice too small to use?

https://i.imgur.com/r30tsOd.jpg

I have a Win 60A with that rear sight in the forward position dovetail cut for the regular open sight. This was my father's rifle he got as teen in the 1930's - barrel is marked "32". I had never seen another like this pictured anywhere so posted it over at Rimfire Central and the Winchester rimfire experts there had never seen a reference to another with sights like this either. The rear sight is marked "Pat Pend" so is an early example of this sight and the dates this sight and the covered front which also was also not ever seen on this model by the experts, were introduced was right at the time the 60A was replaced so could have possibly come from the factory like this. They did agree the sights looked to have been on the rifle a long time. That sight in the forward position works perfectly with this front sight cover matching the orifice opening at the forward position with the sight radius of the 23" barrel. (There was an earlier thread on here about this rifle and sight combo.)

288753

288754

288755

[dverna]

Charlie, do you get 24 Oz cans in CA?

[Bigslug]

See Charlie, I'm actually saving you money on that hyper-accurate Anschutz benchrest gun by keeping the difficulty level the same with existing equipment.

I'm nice like that! :grin:

[OS OK]

NEKVT...I've seen the 67A set up that way, peep forward but I think it was someone who bought the peep sight and installed it themselves? If so they'd have to use a peep with a larger orifice to see anything.

dverna...Charlie, do you get 24 Oz cans in CA?

Hahaaa Don, I think your the only one who actually got the joke so far? Next time ... 'Milk Jugs!'

Bigslug...When you come back with the freezer meat, you'll have some time then to show me how to do it!
This is for the agile & able bodied Young Bucks. Standing there and weaving all about...I felt like a 71 year old Dog passing Peach Seeds!

I had to go to town today...for an errand so since I was 1/2 way to the gun shop I thought I just might drop by. I had called Tuesday to see if the 67A with the peep was still there but it was not. So ... I figure I'll check for myself and make sure it wasn't put somewhere else?
Sure enough, it had sold.
BUT ... there was a little Rem 33 there, evidently had just arrived.

https://i.imgur.com/73TYZIP.jpg

The rifle was designed by Crawford C. Loomis and was produced from 1932 to 1935, and was sold alongside the Model 34. It was the first bolt-action weapon made by Remington, and as such is highly valued for that reason alone. About 263,000 were made. (my serial is 225250) so I'm guessing it was made that last year? That would make the old'Girl 86 years young.

https://i.imgur.com/D5CJ7YY.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/81glBM4.jpg

Looks like it's been parked behind the bedroom door for a half century.
I had a look at the bore before I committed and it looks pretty good, sharp lands. It needs cleaning in the worst way, think I'll polish it after I brush it well.
There's chatter from tool marks but I ain't going to hold that against her.

https://i.imgur.com/uboltXG.jpg

The Crown needs a freshen-up...

https://i.imgur.com/ox0lN3S.jpg

The leade looks sharp also, I've got a feeling this rifle stood behind that bedroom door so long they forgot about her!

https://i.imgur.com/H4OP79O.jpg

In a couple of weeks I'll have another Vintage old rifle to shoot...I have a feeling this one will do well?

[Bigslug]

Good score! I probably would not have passed either! Surprised they serialized them at that period, as they sure weren't 20 years after that.

Definitely a candidate for Mark Novak's boil-conversion of the rust treatment.

[Mk42gunner]

My theory on why a .22 rife can look like it was dragged over twenty miles of bad road on the outside, but still have a good bore is that the lube from the bullets protects the bore.

At least that Model 33's S/N is stamped on the receiver where it is easily found. The Model 41 (one piece receiver and barrel) has it stamped (very lightly, I might add) in front of the forearm at about the eight o'clock position as you aim the rifle.

Robert

[OS OK]

I've read so many articles lately concerning these old rifles that I don't remember where I got this?

One of the articles mentioned that they were not serialized in those years unless they were intended for export.

Mark Novak's boil-conversion of the rust treatment sounds tempting? I'll consider that if I can figure a way to make the equipment needed, that is...the long boiler tube to submerge the barrel in & an efficient way to do the heating.

[OS OK]

I got the 46D back together after the 'steel wool & Hoppes' cleaning, she looks a lot better now...

https://i.imgur.com/0TXalEo.jpg

Still...the weak link is me...

https://i.imgur.com/Q4Gborp.jpg

Had to do an errand in town yesterday & went to the gun shop after that, while I am on the road home coming home, an e-mail arrived from Killough Shooting Sports telling me they had the Eley contact back in stock. But...I didn't discover this until this morning! Now they are out of stock once again. When you get these notices you have to react 'Johnny on the spot' as they sometimes sell out while you are navigating their website.
I am down to the last brick of this ammo, it's the most accurate ammo I've found for the price point...

https://i.imgur.com/xMTKFtd.jpg

[Outpost75]

Just discovered this thread. 50 years ago we shot ordinary iron sighted gallery rifles, Remington 521, 513, Winchester 75, 52, Springfield M1922 at 200 yards on the old Army A target with 12-inch black and 5-inch V ring

With good quality standard velocity, not "match" ammunition, you could shoot 20-shot prone "possibles"; with more than a dozen in the V ring. With a really good rifle and match ammunition a high Master shooter could shoot 20 consecutive Vs into 5 inches at 200 yards.

We had a separate match for sporting rifles less than 6 pounds and the best of these could shoot a 20-shot possible in the 12-inch black at 200 yards with ten Vs.

[fiberoptik]

I doubt it's bent, this one has been very well kept. I do kind of wonder if someone might have replaced the front sight at some point. Seems awfully low.

I have a 72A and 69A which both hit to POA with the sights pretty easily.

Maybe the rear slider for elevation adjustment is the wrong one???


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fiberoptik]

Back in high school I was on the 4 position smallbore team. We shot old Mossberg 144B’s with US Govt. marked on them. We never had any target ammo, only CCI Blazers. They had peep sights. We only shot them at 50 ft. indoors and they really rang the steel backtraps loudly. We were using thumbtacks to hold on the targets. My favorite thing was to watch the guy next to me and when he was almost breaking the trigger I would shoot the thumbtack on his target and watch him miss the entire paper target [emoji457] completely. Unfortunately we ran out of tacks and the coach went on to using cellophane tape. The tape never did let the targets fall even after cutting it at the top of the paper target. Sure wish I had one of them nowadays.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dverna]

Good to see some of the old rifles getting range time, and some of us "old farts" having fun as we journey to the finial shooting range.

I have typically gone "all in" when I got into a shooting game, but I have never stayed "all in" on one discipline for more than 10-12 years. Not sure if I moved on because I reached my level of performance or boredom. I even stopped shooting for a period of time. But there has always been another aspect of shooting that I wanted to try out or "master" so it has been a life long hobby for me. Now, at 71, it looks like all the stuff I accumulated will keep me shooting for as long as I live and I have enough saved to try a couple of more different paths...like I am currently travelling with PCP's.

This post is way off target (like Charlie's beer can...LOL) but my point is we all have fun in different ways. So seeing posts like Charlie contributes are interesting even if it may not be my thing. And I learn stuff. A lot more interesting than "Help me!!! My 9mm is leading!!"

BTW Charlie, looking forward to seeing how that M33 does. I have neve seen one before your post. Looks like a nice addition.

[OS OK]

Good to see some of the old rifles getting range time, and some of us "old farts" having fun as we journey to the finial shooting range.

I have typically gone "all in" when I got into a shooting game, but I have never stayed "all in" on one discipline for more than 10-12 years. Not sure if I moved on because I reached my level of performance or boredom. I even stopped shooting for a period of time. But there has always been another aspect of shooting that I wanted to try out or "master" so it has been a life long hobby for me. Now, at 71, it looks like all the stuff I accumulated will keep me shooting for as long as I live
and I have enough saved to try a couple of more different paths...like I am currently traveling with PCP's.

This post is way off target (like Charlie's beer can...LOL) but my point is we all have fun in different ways. So seeing posts like Charlie contributes are interesting even if it may not be my thing. And I learn stuff. A lot more interesting than "Help me!!! My 9mm is leading!!"

BTW Charlie, looking forward to seeing how that M33 does. I have never seen one before your post. Looks like a nice addition.

Very kind words Don, I do appreciate your post.

I haven't been involved with any of the competitions in all these years of loading & casting, just not my cuppa-tea...I've been driven by curiosity of the various aspects of what we do and have more than my share of things I've collected over the decades to play with. Cast pistol projectiles of the HP variety for instance, whatever I do I tend to get tunnel vision for however long that lasts.

Something I never gave much credence to was the .22lr...it was a tool to introduce and train the kids to shoot, I'm embarrassed to admit that those old rifles have been safe queens since the kids grew up and went their own ways. The rifles I bought for each kid have gone with them in life. But since I don't have a convenient 100 yard range here without building an elevated platform-bench in my East Pasture, I haven't bothered with any CF rifles. I would like to again but my very close friend and mentor headed off to that range you mentioned earlier & that left me without a convenient place to shoot big bore at distance. The older I get the less likely I am to travel to a nearby range 30 to 50 miles distant through the mountain roads.

It is a pleasure to shoot these old rifles, their quality and workmanship is admirable...80 years ago they sold for generally less that $30. Today that M33 sold for $250 and she is going to get re-worked before she appears in this thread...now I have a new distraction and I am having a good time so far.

That beer can post was to 'jokingly explain' to Bigslug why I don't shoot those disciplines anymore, I find no pleasure doing that with such a broken up old body today.
Bench shooting on the other hand is interesting and is holding my attention seeking to shoot these old rifles with precision. The rifles are more than capable to perform but I am not...it's that vision thing that haunts us old'Farts...trying to figure a 'work-around' to use those iron sights efficiently with that handicap has my attention at the moment.
Since there are no rules about targets or equipment or how the traditional sights are used, it leaves me in another 'Rabbit Hole' of imagination, experimentation & application.
"Yah...I'm having a good time in this 'upside down world' we live in at the moment. Playing with these 'old'Girls' is a wonderful pastime."

[OS OK]

I wanted to stay with the old front rest as it seemed more appropriate to this period...

https://i.imgur.com/0TXalEo.jpg

But I had to see what I might do with a little upgrade with the front rest and rear bag...

https://i.imgur.com/new6UTw.jpg

not the best rest I have but it's adjustable, I wanted to see if I could dial-in that meeting point between the top of the front post and the spot?

https://i.imgur.com/P8TfxBN.jpg

This is the rear bag I use to shoot 'free recoil' but I wasn't using it like that, I was fully embracing the butt-stock.

My groups did not improve...

https://i.imgur.com/IVM3yGQ.jpg

Just like using the 'peep & globe' and having light diffraction occur around 'light restricting edges', I get the same thing with the area between the top of the post front sight and the bottom of that 2" black spot.
I tried to just kiss that spot at 6:00 to where I thought I could see a sliver of light between, thinking I might be able to replicate that sight picture?
This may be a workable POA, you notice all the hits off 4:00, that's where I would expect them with the wind this day but I have ignored the wind all together, only try to shoot each spot in the same level & direction of wind. I don't compensate for it's affects, I'm just keeping in mind what those affects are on this range.
Until I can master this sight/spot junction and get consistent, compensating for wind would just cloud the results.
The other thing I tried was to try and judge how well I did contact the bottom of that black spot. Still the diffraction makes it difficult to see clearly and it tends to make me focus either on the spot or the front sight. That's not a tenable way to handle the sight picture...hmmmm?

Still working on it...those elusive 1" groups are out there, just mighty scarce at the moment. :bigsmyl2:

[OS OK]

These are strange looking targets along the top row...heh?

https://i.imgur.com/RTQLXJZ.jpg

The idea was to bring that front blade up under those 1/2 moons to just touch and leave a tiny bump on my front blade & have the full 2" width of the spot take up most of the top of the blade also...make it easier to get that blade centered up.
Well it was another 'spitwad' of an idea like many I've had before but it 'sorta worked'. I didn't do my part very well but the 'sight picture' got better.

https://i.imgur.com/LquaxmV.jpg

I shot the bottom row the same way, leaving just a tiny bump on top of the front blade and it seemed to tighten up a bit.
That encouraged me to try another card, I patched the above card and went again...

https://i.imgur.com/iFDWztw.jpg

You can see how I described the sight picture on the left.
I think this has promise, I did get my first honest 1/2" group...never dreamed I could do that. But...accidents do happen at times.
I think I'll stay with this for a while and see if I can use this POA to stop my looking at the spot and back to the front post.

[tazman]

The old "aim small miss small" effect. The smaller the target you are aiming at, the closer you will come to hitting it.
By reducing the size of the target you are aiming at, you are getting a more precise aim and therefore shooting tighter groups.
Sounds simple, but difficult to do in practice.

[OS OK]

Sounds simple, but difficult to do in practice... I agree taz, but I'll make a routine to follow, If I can keep from checking that spot and then refocusing back on the front post I'll be miles ahead.
My best shots were when I came up centered under the spot & let it go when I had just a little bit of the spot left on the post. When I didn't trust my sight picture and went and checked the spot again I started throwing them off to the right & up and down.
I got time...I'll keep working her.

[beezapilot]

Still like shooting with my first rifle, an Ithaca model 49, single shot with a HECK of a hammer spring- I think that was a plan to make every shot count and conserve ammo- I recall my thumb wore out long before I got through a box of ammo.

[OS OK]

Gee'whizz... Ever try to tap that front dovetail sight over just a little bit? Just try to move that group 1/2" or so?
Boy I went all over the place today...

https://i.imgur.com/0HEStiG.jpg

Does anyone have a link to an affordable dovetail type sight tool?

[Ithaca Gunner]

You might be able to make one from an old heavy wrench or any U shape steel object 1/2'' or wider/thicker. Drill and tap the side of a jaw for a 1/4-5/16'' grade 8 bolt. Crude, but the same principal as an expensive sigh pusher, one jaw against the barrel, the bolt side pushing the sight from the other jaw with a wrench or socket turning the bolt.

[OS OK]

You might be able to make one from an old heavy wrench or any U shape steel object 1/2'' or wider/thicker. Drill and tap the side of a jaw for a 1/4-5/16'' grade 8 bolt. Crude, but the same principal as an expensive sigh pusher, one jaw against the barrel, the bolt side pushing the sight from the other jaw with a wrench or socket turning the bolt.

Excellent idea Gunner...I'll have to go through the junk box & see what I can come up with!

thanks...charlie

[Ithaca Gunner]

I hope it works out for you. I got the idea from an old gunsmith years ago. He used a 2x2 piece of bar stock and milled about an inch out of the center to form it into a flat U, drilled one side, tapped it, and threaded a bolt through, simple.

[OS OK]

Lucky find...Are these new to the market or was I not able to find them before?

https://i.imgur.com/LUzOBYM.jpg

Using the 'Peep & Post' (which I will be using with the Rem. 33 soon and the Sav. MKII in it's thread <New to using a {'PEEP & GLOBE' at 50 yards...}[ https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?411925-New-to-using-a-PEEP-amp-GLOBE-at-50-yards/page40 ) I have found that 2" spots are easier to center in the globe but they are just a tad-bit too small & the 4" spots I have been spray painting with a template are just a tad-bit too large.

I've used 3" spots before but these are expensive and a real stinker to measure...

https://i.imgur.com/42UTSqQ.jpg

The problem with the 4" spots is that they are not only a tad-bit large for the globe but they are a pain in the tusch to make and only 6 can fit a card without interfering with each other's sight picture...

https://i.imgur.com/TGnkKK4.jpg

Some time in the middle of next week they should arrive...

[303Guy]

I print my targets. Printer ink is not that cheap though but it is convenient and versatile. I create the targets using CAD. Unfortunately my CAD app doesn't run properly on Windows 10 and won't print, so I use another CAD app that I just cannot master, to do the printing. It's either a bad CAD or a bad operator! :oops:

But I digress. We are still in lockdown so no sign of the range opening in sight. :sad: I'm really eager to test my little Slazenger single shot. I'll be testing it with a reflex sight and a scope. I have already established it's accuracy potential, now I just want to see what it does with a reflex. Then I'm going to test my second Toz-17 with a scope. It has a really nice bore. I tried slipping a fired case into the chamber and it's tight! So, I'm hoping that a tighter chamber might make the difference.

I just wish this lockdown would end now. I'm tired of it. (Only from the point that the range isn't opening mind you). I have four rifles waiting to be tested (one being my 1898 303 carbine with paper patch loads). Three old 22's to test. I have this thing for old rifles. I just wish I had an even older 22. Mine are all from the 1930's on. Either way, they're all older than I am. Makes me feel younger. :mrgreen:

[OS OK]

I print my targets. Printer ink is not that cheap though but it is convenient and versatile. I create the targets using CAD. Unfortunately my CAD app doesn't run properly on Windows 10 and won't print, so I use another CAD app that I just cannot master, to do the printing. It's either a bad CAD or a bad operator! :oops:

But I digress. We are still in lockdown so no sign of the range opening in sight. :sad: I'm really eager to test my little Slazenger single shot. I'll be testing it with a reflex sight and a scope. I have already established it's accuracy potential, now I just want to see what it does with a reflex. Then I'm going to test my second Toz-17 with a scope. It has a really nice bore. I tried slipping a fired case into the chamber and it's tight! So, I'm hoping that a tighter chamber might make the difference.

I just wish this lockdown would end now. I'm tired of it. (Only from the point that the range isn't opening mind you). I have four rifles waiting to be tested (one being my 1898 303 carbine with paper patch loads). Three old 22's to test. I have this thing for old rifles. I just wish I had an even older 22. Mine are all from the 1930's on. Either way, they're all older than I am. Makes me feel younger. :mrgreen:

I hope it ends as well...it's wrecking the world..ugggg! Don't let me get started on Covid!
I can't imagine being barred from the range...that's my 'peace of mind place'! All the problems of the world go away when I'm on the bench.

I set the MKII up with a 'Peep & Post' giving me a sight picture (sorta?) of what the Remington 33 will be like with 3" spots at 50 yds...

https://i.imgur.com/UUmPhXs.jpg

I get to pick up the 33 this Tuesday along with 5 bricks of Eley Contact.
I'm posting the MKII's work today in it's thread just now.
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?411925-New-to-using-a-PEEP-amp-GLOBE-at-50-yards > New to using a 'PEEP & GLOBE' at 50 yards...

[tazman]

I print my targets. Printer ink is not that cheap though but it is convenient and versatile. I create the targets using CAD. Unfortunately my CAD app doesn't run properly on Windows 10 and won't print, so I use another CAD app that I just cannot master, to do the printing. It's either a bad CAD or a bad operator! :oops:

But I digress. We are still in lockdown so no sign of the range opening in sight. :sad: I'm really eager to test my little Slazenger single shot. I'll be testing it with a reflex sight and a scope. I have already established it's accuracy potential, now I just want to see what it does with a reflex. Then I'm going to test my second Toz-17 with a scope. It has a really nice bore. I tried slipping a fired case into the chamber and it's tight! So, I'm hoping that a tighter chamber might make the difference.

I just wish this lockdown would end now. I'm tired of it. (Only from the point that the range isn't opening mind you). I have four rifles waiting to be tested (one being my 1898 303 carbine with paper patch loads). Three old 22's to test. I have this thing for old rifles. I just wish I had an even older 22. Mine are all from the 1930's on. Either way, they're all older than I am. Makes me feel younger. :mrgreen:

I also print my own targets. I use laser printer so the cost of printing goes way down compared to ink jet. Also is much faster as a rule.
Black, high yield inkjet cartridges for HP printers run $40-$50 and get 400-500 pages. The Brother laserjet cartridges I use cost about $60 and get 2500 pages per cartridge. They also don't dry out and quit working before they run out of toner.
50% more money per cartridge but 500% more targets. I figure my targets cost less than 4 cents apiece.
I download targets from the internet, usually in .pdf form. Many different targets are free to download. There is nearly any conceivable target out there.
If you want something you can't find already made up, draw one one a piece of paper, take a picture of it, insert it into a document and print away.
I adjust the print size to get the measured size that I want. You can do this in print properties when you start the print sequence. It sometimes takes a trial print or two in order to get the size right, but then you can print as many as you wish. Write the setting down somewhere and you can repeat it as needed.

[OS OK]

Finally...Pick-up day for the Remington 33.
Got her home, gave her a steel wool & Hoppes bath, cleaned and polished the bore, now she joins the daily lineup of shooters (for a little while only, I'm going to detail clean the Lyman 55 peep sight & strip and re-oil the stock...

https://i.imgur.com/qlQ8K8n.jpg

I did want to play with her a little before she gets torn apart again.
I started on the 25 yard line on my trash can to get her sighted fairly well before I went back to the 50.

https://i.imgur.com/60TWzI3.jpg

Just wanted to make sure I was on paper.
Then I backed up to the 50 for another 10 shots on a 4" & 6" spot...need to see what size target spot will be the easiest to use with this Peep & Post Bead.

https://i.imgur.com/BmJBjU0.jpg

I have 3' spots being delivered this afternoon, I think I can shoot them using the sight alignment (punkin on the post) I used on the 25 with the 2" spots.
But thats the first 20 rounds through her & I think she is going to be a good shooter!
I'll get back out in the morning with a card set up with 3" spots and see what I can do?

[OS OK]

Shot 2 cards this morning... with the Rem. 33 before I started re-working that Lyman 55 peep sight...
didn't do too awful bad with these 3" spots...it's going to take some serious practice to get it dialed in...

https://i.imgur.com/AYYECdb.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/OObVgk0.jpg

I think, not sure yet but I think I have the sight picture that'll work, this is what I am trying to see...(not drawn to scale)

https://i.imgur.com/YTeLJEZ.jpg

That white 1" center seems to stand out when it is sitting atop the front post-bead. Below is the actual sight picture but in this picture you can't see the 1" white center spots like I can...these iPhone cameras leave a little to be desired trying to shoot these pics.

https://i.imgur.com/IZkd0B9.jpg

Well...that's the plan anyway until something new surfaces...
After practice I took the Lyman 55 peep off and disassembled it...I've been dreading this as I don't do well handling these micro sized screws and such with my bear paw hands.
I used naval jelly to strip them of rust and old blueing, then used an old bottle of Birchwood Casey Perma Blue, this stuff has been in the shop so long, I don't even remember when or where I got this stuff...

https://i.imgur.com/TeqDO9c.jpg

Easy stuff to work with and does a pretty good job, here's the before and after of this afternoons follies...

https://i.imgur.com/FSuNU8K.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/k7IXHho.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/qDJhBgc.jpg

I might have done a better job if I had gotten the Dremmel out, clamped it to the bench and used it as a micro buffer but I was scared to death to snag one of the screws or parts and throw them into oblivion somewhere in the shop...little parts like these usually don't get found once they learn to fly! I will settle for what I've got so far.

Next phase, starting in the morning will be the stock and I plan to use this combination of stripper and Teak Oil...I am looking for a flat 'rubbed oil' finish & natural walnut coloring, no gloss.

https://i.imgur.com/f9dQTgo.jpg

Of course...after I shoot 2 more cards. I look forward to the wood work as I enjoy working in wood, there's a pleasure I get from seeing the natural beauty of the grain popping out. More tomorrow . . .

[tazman]

That sight cleaned up beautifully. The rifle shot pretty well also.

[Harry Tobin]

Look like it shoots well, as far as the stock. From my experience with 22 stock refinishing, what wood you think it is it’s not. They used to stain them to look like walnut, but you won’t know for sure till you strip the old finish off. So you may need to stain it again.

[303Guy]

That came out well, OS.

Loctite Navel Jelly hey? Just what I need - I shall be looking for some.

[OS OK]

Good stuff 303Guy... works like a charm.

Well I shot my last 2 cards early of the morning on Thursday and then went right to work on the stock and remaining blueing I had to do...my shooting hasn't improved just yet but I still have another trick in store for this ole'Girl.

https://i.imgur.com/klTsNxI.jpg

Here's how she turned out this afternoon, I am rather pleased. A friend on another board said she doesn't look 86 years old anymore...just about 25 now. I figured that was a pretty good compliment. Anyway here's the pics. of the Remington mod. 33...

https://i.imgur.com/XY8lAvD.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/q1yzvZz.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/m2k1nVu.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/qBhqtcb.jpg

About that 'TRICK' I mentioned earlier..."do any of you have any experience working the sear of these old rifles? At the moment the trigger pull is between 4 pounds and 4 pounds 6 ounces...I would like to 'safely' trim that down to about 2 to 2.5 pounds?
Is it doable & if so...what do I need to do to make this work?

[tazman]

I wish you didn't live so far away. I have an old rifle that could benefit from your touch.
Nice work.

[OS OK]

Going to try something new tomorrow. Remember this thread? ...
? MOULD REST for a Lee 10# pot ?

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?430471-MOULD-REST-for-a-Lee-10-pot

I think that lab jack may be a fine tune for elevation? Got set up and the Internet man showed up to put us on a different WIFI so this is as far as I got...

https://i.imgur.com/0iItuOZ.jpg

[tazman]

I like that! it lets you use a single bag for a number of different rifle with the same front rest. No need for different height rear bags.
I ran into that issue with a couple of rifles I have. I used a folded blanket under the rear bag. This works better.

[Wayne Smith]

Very nicely done cleaning and rebuilding the sight and stock. I've done much the same but I use Tung Oil - the pure type from Woodcraft. Mix with mineral spirits at 50/50 and over several days let the mineral spirits evaporate and the Tung Oil gets to about 70% for the final coat that you rub in. I sand in the first two or three coats - to about 400 grit - to use the sanding dust to fill the pores. Can't do this if you are staining it, though.

[HectorFuego]

289606

289610

Pre-WW II Winchester 69A. It's the second from the top. Inherited it from my dad. Pretty typical accuracy for that rifle.

Hector

[Pressman]

That 33 looks great. I have one on the winter project list, it looks worse than yours but the bore is clean and shiny. Alas it does not have that nice Lyman 55 sight. Test firing on the 50 foot indoor range showed it's a shooter, makes me glad I allowed it to follow me home. And stay inspired by this thread.

Ken

[dverna]

Nice job Charlie on the refinish!! I need to get my butt in gear and do my old .22 even though I rarely shoot it anymore. It has almost 60 years of use and shows it.

[OS OK]

Thanks for all the kind words boys...but...it's not very difficult to get a minimal level of restoration going, these products make it real easy. If any of you are hesitant to tackle an old rifle, don't be...don't hesitate. When you get done I'm sure you'll reflect and say to yourself..."Next time I'll do 'such-n-such differently . . . " But, that's how it is with most of us, we live, do & learn as we go.

Sunday I shot my last card, that trigger is getting to be a real problem...if I can't loose a round without changing my POA then it's time to shut her down and figure the problem out.

https://i.imgur.com/Gsdzspm.jpg

Luckily HARRY TOBIN called and between the two of us and two hours sending photos back and forth & Harry doing the web search thing...we figured this lil'Bugger out.
The problem lies with a gizmo called a 'striker release'...this is what it should look like on the top left side where it engages the striker extension inside the bolt...

https://i.imgur.com/yahsu56.jpg

This is what mine looks like...one side of the contact points is worn smooth and it was causing the heavy spring of the striker to push the trigger/striker assembly into the side of the rails they hang within and bind.

https://i.imgur.com/b3gtWPj.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/IYZEVpz.jpg

This is the striker release (top) & trigger, the right end of the arm on the trigger fits into the slot on the left side of the striker release and when the trigger is pulled it in turn pulls the striker release down away from the striker assembly within the bolt. Needless to say, I didn't buy this set from Florida...they are in terrible shape.

https://i.imgur.com/qEdUqIW.jpg

This is the underside of the receiver where the trigger hinges against the striker and pulls it down to release the striker extension...

https://i.imgur.com/ZgLINCn.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/QxjKXL4.jpg

The new/used part Harry found on the ebay and I ordered it. We should be seeing this rifle shooting much better groups in a couple weeks.

[beltfed]

Interesting, OS OK
The basic lock up of your Rem M33 is the same Double locking lug bolt handle ass'y that Rem continued in the later 500 series except for the M514 which only used.
a single lock at the root of the bolt handle.

I wonder about the Rem 37 match rifle? probably the same Double lugs. ???
beltfed/arnie

[Pressman]

I am glad you posted this; it will be easier to sort out the heavy, gritty trigger on mine. It feels like two files rubbing together. Looking at the striker release shows no unusual wear which corresponds to other wear points that show little actual firing over its life. The rifle looks like it spent all of its life tucked away in a corner of the barn in case of need. Seriously weathered but not beat up.

For those who have never had the chance to own a 33, they are great utility rifles made in a time when craftsmanship meant something.

Doing a little digging I found that I have a Model 33, OS-OK has the more desirable Model 33 NRA with the Lyman sight.

[OS OK]

I found an interesting comment about the various models, mentioning the mod. 33, 33-P & 33 NRA and hoped mine was the NRA?

https://i.imgur.com/xLvpRNT.jpg

However, since mine is just marked '33', I figured someone must have added the Lyman sight?

https://i.imgur.com/73TYZIP.jpg

[johniv]

289811

Only 25 yards. Rem. 510 with open sights, CCI SV 15 rds., and 75 yo eyes.

[OS OK]

johniv... I think that's pretty fine shooting for those 75 yo eyes. Well done. 'Varmints beware!'

Finally received the two 'striker releases' I ordered...I compared all three, picked the best and went after it and the trigger with 600 grit wet sand paper and a buffing wheel and jewelers rouge. Didn't want to change any angles of the sear surface, just make them slick. The trigger pull dropped from 4lbs. 8ozs. to 3lbs 8 ozs...the trigger is smooth now, after the small amount of 'take-up' it is crisp (if you can call that weight 'crisp'?)

I used a loop and photos I could 'blow up in size' to see the mating surfaces well...

https://i.imgur.com/Uq0aU5A.jpg

Got back out on the 50 yd. line in style this morning with a utility cart I picked up a couple days ago...this is going to be handy for all the property work and tree trimming, hauling trash cans to the main road etc...but most important, hauling the toys to the 50 yd. bench!

https://i.imgur.com/fLrHlLG.jpg

This morning was the first time I've used the 'lab jack' for control of the rear bag...so far I like it, I can control vertical and horizontal very easily...

https://i.imgur.com/mhTaxUs.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/HUtTcqV.jpg

Here's what I was able to get done today...I am a little rusty with this rifle after the long wait for parts but I was able to start building some pretty good groups before I sent a couple of 'my fault fliers' down range.

https://i.imgur.com/kvyzxNu.jpg

Keep in mind, this ammo is 'Eley Contact', their cheapest .22lr rounds...it is $4.75/box-50 cnt. This ammo is outstanding in these old rifles.

[shutinlead]

OS,
I've enjoyed this post and it's been fun to follow what you're doing, keep it up.

This rifle may not fit here as it's not an old one, it's a new casting of an old one... A Wesson Mid-Range #1 which if it were original would make it right at a 150 years old these days... Frank didn't make any of the 20 or so he made in a 22rf but that didn't stop me... I have it shooting -just barely and my intentions with it are to make it shoot bullets I cast, breech seated, using Fed-Arms cases and charged with black powder. Today was it's maiden voyage shooting black - I've shot a few mfg. rounds through it and it has potential. For today, I only found time to load 8 rounds so two groups of 4 - here's the better group, the first group tried was nearly 2.5", the second group I beared down on the sights and the target, the wind let up a little and group stayed under a 1.5 MOA. My velocities were where I wanted them with 4 grains of 4F at 1030 fps but there's still some tweaking to do.

More testing soon... maybe even some more finish work on the rifle.
Greg
290811290813290814290816

[OS OK]

shutinlead... Of course you posted in the right place, we all enjoy seeing what others are doing...not just the stuff I putts around with.
That's a cool repro, I hope you keep us posted with the progress you make.
We've seen already that it's not just the rifle + ammo + shooter's ability that go into lil'groups but even the bench and the rest & bags we shoot off of.
Oh yeah, the wind too...that unpredictable wind...so many things go into a lil'group! :bigsmyl2:

[Wayne Smith]

OSOK where did you get your 'lab rack' - I've been looking for something like that for years. I'm 6'2" and all the range tables are way too short for me!

[tazman]

Because of my recent finding about the carbon ring in my match rifle, I decided to check my vintage rifles to see what was there.
I found a mess.
They are now clean but it took a couple of hours to clean all four of them properly. This HAD to be affecting the accuracy.
It will be interesting to see if there is a significant improvement in accuracy.
While looking at the inside of the barrels with my borescope, I found that the transition from the chamber throat to the rifling is very different between these older rifles and my new ones.
The taper on the rifling is much longer and farther out than on the new rifles. The taper is probably three or four times as long before the rifling reaches full height on those old rifles. Far less abrupt. There is also a bit of space between the chamber mouth and where the rifling starts. Almost a freebore situation.
I can't be certain, at this point, if that long taper is by design or from the years of use and thousands of rounds down the barrels. One of the rifles had a bore that seemed far less used than the others and it still had the long taper so I am leaning towards by design.
This may have something to do with the accuracy and dependability of these old rifles.
The rifle that had been my father's had some very minor pitting in the barrel which looked to be from having corrosive ammo fired in it long ago.
Not bad but enough to notice. I had not noticed it having an effect on the accuracy but I haven;t fired it a lot either.
Anyone with more information about these design differences, please chime in.

[OS OK]

OSOK where did you get your 'lab rack' - I've been looking for something like that for years. I'm 6'2" and all the range tables are way too short for me!

They call them Lab Jacks...got mine from Amazon... https://www.amazon.com/lab-jack/s?k=lab+jack

I use a 4' x 4' for a mould stand on my 10 pound Lee and the 6" x 6" for the rifles, the 6x6 is not as stable as the 4x4 because it has an extra set of scissors in it but it doesn't hinder me, I'd just prefer it solid as a rock.

https://i.imgur.com/rxCjTM4.jpg

The 6x6 I glued some tool box liner to for keeping the bag from slipping around...

https://i.imgur.com/otUZzR5.jpg

[OS OK]

tazman my vintage rifles also have a longer leade, don't know what to compare it to other than the custom CZ where the projectile jams the lands & I'd rather they did that.
I hope you'll post what you find when you re-test for accuracy?

[tazman]

The pictures I posted in the other thread about the MTR and the carbon ring show how short the lead is on that rifle. The ammunition is engraved by the rifling in that barrel.
The older rifles appears to be simply freebored for a little ways before the rifling starts. The reason I say this is there is a short distance between where the carbon ring ends and the rifling begins. It gives the appearance of a smooth metal tube right there.
The freebored section also appears to be the same diameter as the groove diameter of the rest of the barrel. If it is, alignment should not be an issue.
Unfortunately, I have no way to measure all this.
All I can do is check the accuracy the next trip to the range.

[OS OK]

The pictures I posted in the other thread about the MTR and the carbon ring show how short the lead is on that rifle. The ammunition is engraved by the rifling in that barrel.
The older rifles appears to be simply freebored for a little ways before the rifling starts. The reason I say this is there is a short distance between where the carbon ring ends and the rifling begins. It gives the appearance of a smooth metal tube right there.
The freebored section also appears to be the same diameter as the groove diameter of the rest of the barrel. If it is, alignment should not be an issue.
Unfortunately, I have no way to measure all this.
All I can do is check the accuracy the next trip to the range.

From this link... https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/ANSI-SAAMI-Z299.1-Rimfire-2015-R2018-Approved-2018-06-13.pdf
SAAMI Z299.1 – 2015 (R2018)Voluntary Industry Performance Standards forPressure and Velocity of Rimfire Sporting Ammunitionfor the Use of Commercial Manufacturers

I get the following drawings, there's quite a difference in a match and sporting chamber. Think of all the differences we would see between all the manufacturers and them taking advantage of the tolerances in the drawings.
It should give you an idea about that 'leade area' and length of chamber...

https://i.imgur.com/oKSKaKO.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/jnR2OTI.jpg

[tazman]

Interesting.
I also note that these standards appear to be voluntary. I also doubt they were in effect back when my old rifles were built either.
Someone posted a list of chamber dimensions for different manufacturers who had either named their chamber style or were just using what they thought worked better. IIRC those dimensions varied substantially also.
That freebore area I noticed could easily be made to fit inside some of these dimensions.

[OS OK]

Interesting.
I also note that these standards appear to be voluntary. I also doubt they were in effect back when my old rifles were built either.
Someone posted a list of chamber dimensions for different manufacturers who had either named their chamber style or were just using what they thought worked better. IIRC those dimensions varied substantially also.
That freebore area I noticed could easily be made to fit inside some of these dimensions.

I remember us talking about this some time back in one of the other threads I've posted but couldn't remember which. I thought that this publication here might be the minimum & maximum numbers and then they (the manufacturers) would choose between them what exactly they want to cut in their rifles.
Wouldn't it be nice if there was an easy way to have our vintage rifle chambers shortened up so the rounds would engrave in the lands! If that were possible I recon it'd cost more than the old'Girls are worth?

[tazman]

You would be talking setting back and rechambering the barrel at which point it is no longer a "vintage" rifle. Might as well buy a new CZ or Tikka and shoot that. It gets away from our entire "shoot it as it was back in the day" approach.

I found the post about the different chamber dimensions. Post number 23 on the page in this link
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?411925-New-to-using-a-PEEP-amp-GLOBE-at-50-yards/page2

[OS OK]

You would be talking setting back and rechambering the barrel at which point it is no longer a "vintage" rifle. Might as well buy a new CZ or Tikka and shoot that. It gets away from our entire "shoot it as it was back in the day" approach.

I found the post about the different chamber dimensions. Post number 23 on the page in this link
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?411925-New-to-using-a-PEEP-amp-GLOBE-at-50-yards/page2

I suppose your right taz, it would no longer be like 'back in the day'. But...since I don't have rules to follow or consider, I just thought having an 80 year old rifle that could compete with the modern rifles of today would be neet. Kinda like having a 'sleeper hot rod car'.

Good find on that chart...those dimensions really split hairs, such subtle differences.

[dverna]

I suppose your right taz, it would no longer be like 'back in the day'. But...since I don't have rules to follow or consider, I just thought having an 80 year old rifle that could compete with the modern rifles of today would be neet. Kinda like having a 'sleeper hot rod car'.

Good find on that chart...those dimensions really split hairs, such subtle differences.

I am with you on this one. I have a .22 "econo" Anschutz my dad gave me over 55 years ago. One of those guns that a guy never sells. It is beat up and looks like hell. It would be neat to get it to shoot 3/4" groups at 50 yards. Really silly to take a rifle that is worth at the most $100 and put over $200 into it...but I might do it. I have been searching for a decent trigger to replace the one that is on it. I am going to give it a good cleaning after reading the stuff Tazman posted to see it it shoots better. But if I had to have a gunsmith set the barrel back and rechamber it I would probably do it. Sometimes it is not about the money.

I don't go to public ranges anymore. But when my buddies come over it would be a hoot to kick their butts with the old girl. I have had her for 59 years.

[tazman]

I suppose your right taz, it would no longer be like 'back in the day'. But...since I don't have rules to follow or consider, I just thought having an 80 year old rifle that could compete with the modern rifles of today would be neet. Kinda like having a 'sleeper hot rod car'.

Good find on that chart...those dimensions really split hairs, such subtle differences.

Subtle changes can make all the difference in how these rifles perform. Think about how much difference there can be between different lots of the same ammunition or the differences action screw torque can make. Or even the different settings on the tuner you use on your CZ.
When it comes to chamber dimensions, you have to live with what is there in these older rifles.
In custom rifles you can make those subtle changes in chamber dimensions and see if they improve things. Some of those chambers were cut for specific brands of ammunition.
I suspect we might find certain brands of ammunition that shoot incredibly well in some of these older rifles. Great strides have been made over the years in ammunition accuracy and consistency. Some of these rifles are 70+ years old. Some of them started life firing corrosive ammunition.

I think I will try some of my match ammunition in a couple of these old girls and see what happens.

[OS OK]

I am with you on this one. I have a .22 "econo" Anschutz my dad gave me over 55 years ago. One of those guns that a guy never sells. It is beat up and looks like hell. It would be neat to get it to shoot 3/4" groups at 50 yards. Really silly to take a rifle that is worth at the most $100 and put over $200 into it...but I might do it. I have been searching for a decent trigger to replace the one that is on it. I am going to give it a good cleaning after reading the stuff Tazman posted to see it it shoots better. But if I had to have a gunsmith set the barrel back and rechamber it I would probably do it. Sometimes it is not about the money.

I don't go to public ranges anymore. But when my buddies come over it would be a hoot to kick their butts with the old girl. I have had her for 59 years.

Exactly my sentiments Don....the Boys I shoot with are Gamesters to the maximum! We always have a friendly competition but when the chips are on the line, you can expect one of them to make a sound or say something just to put a little distraction out there or make you question the shot...'full blown gamesmanship', you not only have to out-shoot your friends but survive their antics too. Great fun.
One of them brings a new 'shooter' over and you break out an old'Girl and shoot better, it's kills them! Of course they can do the same to you too.

Half the fun of shooting a private range is enjoying your friends.

[OS OK]

Subtle changes can make all the difference in how these rifles perform. Think about how much difference there can be between different lots of the same ammunition or the differences action screw torque can make. Or even the different settings on the tuner you use on your CZ.
When it comes to chamber dimensions, you have to live with what is there in these older rifles.
In custom rifles you can make those subtle changes in chamber dimensions and see if they improve things. Some of those chambers were cut for specific brands of ammunition.
I suspect we might find certain brands of ammunition that shoot incredibly well in some of these older rifles. Great strides have been made over the years in ammunition accuracy and consistency. Some of these rifles are 70+ years old. Some of them started life firing corrosive ammunition.

I think I will try some of my match ammunition in a couple of these old girls and see what happens.

I'll have a new little project soon...an experiment with pencil barrel vintage rifles.

I have an old flash suppressor from an m16 that conditor22 just turned on his lathe. The idea is to have it slip fit over the pencil barrel rifles, have it snug up to the barrel with 3 set-screws for adjustment. (set-screws with a #12 lead shot under them so they won't marr the barrel)
It's not a heavy weight tuner but I'm thinking it won't take much weight to change the node on a pencil barrel...we'll see soon?

https://i.imgur.com/h4rr2cB.jpg

[tazman]

Your new project sounds interesting. I will be looking for a report.

I made it to the range today with the cleaned old rifles. Boy did it make a difference.
I only had a scope on one rifle, a Winchester 72a which was my very first ever rifle. Here is a picture of the group shot at 25 yards.
290903

The rifle wears an old Weaver 4X scope that hasn't been adjusted in over 40 years. Basically, I put it on the rifle and never needed to adjust it to hit squirrels. I still didn't adjust it. The glass is beginning to get a little unclear after all these years but is still usable, mostly.
The bullet out of the group on the left target was the very first cold, dry bore shot. The rest all went into basically the same group.
Discounting the cold bore shot, the groups measured 1/4 inch center to center. This old rifle has never shot this well since I have owned it. It has also never been this clean since I have owned it.
I fired a five shot group at 50 yards just to see what happened. I couldn't aim well due to the scope being so old. Still shot a 1 inch group. I wonder what this rifle could do with new glass on it.

I also had my Remington 512 along and fired it at 25 yards. No scope. With my old eyes, I shot a 1 inch five shot group. Makes me wonder what it would do with a scope mounted.

[OS OK]

That's really good news.

I'd be looking for an affordable scope(s) now. I imagine that the lower $ scopes might fit the bill since there's hardly any physical shock to affect their internals.
The one guy I know of who is knowledgeable is this guy, I think he has made about a thousand million scope reviews on the Y_Tube...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np6_OVPEfXQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np6_OVPEfXQ

I don't envy you having to shop for a scope, generally when we say affordable we are really meaning cheap & cheap just never fit's the bill for a discerning eye.
I guess you have to make up your mind up whether this scope is primarily for getting critters or getting tight groups on paper.
That'd be an easy choice for me since I don't hunt any more.

[OS OK]

I have progressed a little farther with the pencil barrel tuner...I am starting it out on the Rem 33 NRA.

https://i.imgur.com/XaxpdG3.jpg

This is how it'll look...I hope there's just enough mass in weight to fool the barrel into reacting like it's 1.5" longer and moving that last node in the barrel up to the muzzle or at least much closer?

https://i.imgur.com/C6lXNRB.jpg

I thought I had 6-32 - 1/8" set screws in my stock but didn't so I'm waiting for those to come in the mail. I went ahead and put the taps in and used these goofy screws to hold it in place.

https://i.imgur.com/20AXjJ6.jpg

It slips over the barrel 3/4" so I figure I have about 1/4" of adjustment in it before it compromises itself to stay in place & snug. I'm hoping if it needs a little weight that I might accomplish that in another way other than moving it forward?

I rushed out to try it against my better judgement...I decided I needed a 1-2 mph day to tell if it's working but I shot anyway and didn't learn anything.

https://i.imgur.com/Mi0NT2J.jpg

I wasn't trying to compensate for the wind, just shoot in the same wind direction and velocity (I can't do that very well, I'm not patient to sit there with my eye on that wind arrow and wait to send one.)
It looks a lot like the last time I had it out.
I know it has to be shooting different with the tuner on the end...Tomorrow, Friday & Saturday looks like favorable wind days so perhaps I can get some data then?

https://i.imgur.com/kvyzxNu.jpg

If I average the test target against the average of the last target I posted I get...
1 11/32's vs 1 9/32's (I think they call that an aggregate of the card?)
Pretty much the same and yet not the same considering the conditions, overcast light sun vs clear sky bright sun...heck I could make excuses till the cows come in but it won't proove anything so I wait! Again!
I'm so bad!

[OS OK]

Gave it another go this morning... Wind was steady in one direction and low but it was overcast and low light in a peep sight get's tough.

https://i.imgur.com/3mgM7Ba.jpg

I set her up on the good bag and front rest...yes, still have those goofy long screws in the tuner but the right ones are due in the mail tomorrow (fingers crossed).

https://i.imgur.com/AqN89gI.jpg

And came out a lil'bit better today, the agg was 1/8" smaller. This is the test #1 target patched up and run for the 2'nd time...

https://i.imgur.com/4lFFHKP.jpg

When I get a sunny morning and I can see the definition of the white bull better I need to adjust the sights up and right a lil'bit. After that I think I just might be able to keep them all in the white 1" spot. That would be terrific & I'd be real happy with that.

[OS OK]

Test #3 with the tuner... A fine morning for shooting, wind's about the same as before but today I have clear skies, no excuses for not seeing those white spots.
Shooting straight at the white bull, not trying to compensate for the wind.

https://i.imgur.com/XP7dSSX.jpg

The agg for the 8 targets is 1 1/16", that's only an improvement over test 2 by 1/16" but it's better none the less. Unless I can get the agg at an 1" or less I feel this experimental tuner is a fail.

[OS OK]

"IT TWAS A GREAT DAY IN THE MORNING!"... Had another favorable day to shoot, wind was low, light was better & I didn't goof anything up...well, I almost didn't!

Started out with a couple of 'test targets' for visibility from the 50 bench. Actually 4 test targets but only 2 different than I've been using. Lately I have been having trouble seeing the white & black contrast. By the time I got to the 3'rd target this morning I realized that I was wearing my sun glasses and not my prescription lenses for distance.
Whatta goof... I had to laugh at myself, I'm getting old, that's my excuse and I'm sticking with it!

I wanted to see if some kind of different contrasting between the white and black might make a big difference. I zoomed the camera a little to try to show you what I'm seeing and this is a pretty good picture...this was pretty much what I was seeing without my prescription glasses. (I only wear them to drive so they stay in my truck console and I forget I even have the dang things)

https://i.imgur.com/7cRcRPS.jpg

This is the first card...(on this one I'm only taking the agg. for the bottom 4)

https://i.imgur.com/9G3ABZw.jpg

That was encouraging so I patched it up and shot another 8 for agg. sizing...(kept my glasses on too :bigsmyl2:)

https://i.imgur.com/haDkU6n.jpg

This turned out better than I expected...now I'm showing progress in the last 5 test cards...

https://i.imgur.com/pGPo0Uy.jpg

If I can maintain this 'under an 1"' for a few more cards, then I'll remove the tuner and see what I can do without it...that will be the bottom line.

The correct set screws came in Wednesdays mail, I keep an Allen wrench at the bench to check tightness. I put a #9 lead shot in each hole under the setscrews and they are not loosening up.

https://i.imgur.com/VU8m7iM.jpg

[tazman]

You seem to be shooting this rifle pretty much the same group size as your MKII.

[OS OK]

That ain't saying much for that MKII is it?

This could be that me as a shooter just can't do any better, that I'm peeked out with this peep and globe or post sight system?

[tazman]

That ain't saying much for that MKII is it?

This could be that me as a shooter just can't do any better, that I'm peeked out with this peep and globe or post sight system?

I know for a fact that my eyes will not allow me to shoot groups at 50 yards that you do. I get groups slightly larger than yours at 25 yards with open sights. I am not qualified to say if you have reached your limits.
Just because I can't do it, does not mean someone else can't either. I have had my nose rubbed in that reality too many times over the years to be that stupid.

[OS OK]

I can't say the Eley Contact is doing the best it can & that this is a limitation because I've found 2 x 3/8"s groups with the MKII using peep & post just recently and several 1/2" also.
Looking back when the MKII was sporting the 6x24 scope I found 2 x 3/8"s groups on one card & several 1/2" also...many in the 5/8" size give or take a 1/16".
So I think the Contact can do better.
What I need is a low wind day again and no clouds so I have the most amount of light to work with. This Sunday may be that day, keeping my fingers crossed.

I don't want to start adding weight or changing where I have the tuner fastened on the barrel because that could take a dozen cards to resolve with only an 1/8" decrease overall.
Just one more morning with no clouds and then I think I will pull the home made tuner and see how she shoots without it.

Unless of course you or Don has some better ideas? I'm always open for suggestions.

[tazman]

I don't have any fresh ideas. I think you have a pretty good idea what you could be capable of. You should have a much better idea than I do.
The only thing I might suggest is to run some Match ammunition through it just to remove the possible incompatible ammo question.
I did that with my old Winchester after I cleaned it and got a major surprise. It turned in the best groups it has fired in the nearly 60 years I have owned it.

[OS OK]

That's a very good idea taz...consider it on the menu before I pull the tuner.

[Ithaca Gunner]

As for ammunition, don't even think of giving up on a certain box after only 10-20 shots. At that number you've just begun to condition the bore to the lube on them. I got this advice from a long time .22 match shooter. If a new rifle that didn't shoot to expectation with his old match ammo, he would buy several box's each of proven quality ammo, shoot a box from a clean bore often at a single target, then shoot for score with the second box like a regulation match and see how it did, choosing the best of what he had to buy cases of. I heard him stress many times the importance of the lube/barrel marriage and he would not clean the bore until the gun was put away after the season was over.

I haven't tried this myself, however have you tried one of Paco Kelly's rimfire tools? It's a die where you drop a .22 cartridge in and use a rod to tap or press against the bullet, expanding it slightly. The theory is, most .22 rifles have sloppy chambers, (purposely done at the factories) to accommodate all brands and types of ammunition and the cure is to ''fit'' the bullet to the chamber.

Here's a link www.gunblast.com/Paco2.htm

[Alferd Packer]

some soot from a burning candle or even a match if you are quick and once you learn how.

[OS OK]

As for ammunition, don't even think of giving up on a certain box after only 10-20 shots. At that number you've just begun to condition the bore to the lube on them. I got this advice from a long time .22 match shooter. If a new rifle that didn't shoot to expectation with his old match ammo, he would buy several box's each of proven quality ammo, shoot a box from a clean bore often at a single target, then shoot for score with the second box like a regulation match and see how it did, choosing the best of what he had to buy cases of. I heard him stress many times the importance of the lube/barrel marriage and he would not clean the bore until the gun was put away after the season was over.

I haven't tried this myself, however have you tried one of Paco Kelly's rimfire tools? It's a die where you drop a .22 cartridge in and use a rod to tap or press against the bullet, expanding it slightly. The theory is, most .22 rifles have sloppy chambers, (purposely done at the factories) to accommodate all brands and types of ammunition and the cure is to ''fit'' the bullet to the chamber.

Here's a link www.gunblast.com/Paco2.htm

I've seen those, am a little afraid to go banging on loaded ammo. Thank you...charlie

[OS OK]

As taz suggested...I changed to the Eley Match for a few cards. I wasn't expecting to see this.
It was overcast and that's my only drawback today...the fliers belong to me, not the Match ammo.
I have a couple more days coming this week where the wind is forecast at '0 & 2 mph'...hopefully I'll get a sunny day too, that light makes so much difference in the peep sight. I think I can do better than this...(FINGERS CROSSED)

https://i.imgur.com/VABCXv0.jpg

When I've shot a couple more of these cards and I have a good agg. average, I'll pull the tuner and try it with the Eley Match...that should say whether the tuner is doing anything or not?

[tazman]

Seriously impressive there OS.
Delete those two fliers and you would have been under 1 inch on all targets. That old girl will shoot!

Am I mistaken or is that substantially better than you have done with the MKII?

[Harry Tobin]

Well dang Charlie, always thought I’d like to go shooting with you. But with stuff like that you’d put me to shame! Now for the people that don’t know this man, I’ve been working on my 357 carbine shooting and was low on components and he sent me 500 new brass and bullets. A true friend for sure, hey nice shooting TEX!!! And thanks again ole buddy!

[OS OK]

Seriously impressive there OS.
Delete those two fliers and you would have been under 1 inch on all targets. That old girl will shoot!

Am I mistaken or is that substantially better than you have done with the MKII?

taz...I think the best the MKII has done with scope and with peep & globe is 3/8" groups with lotz of 1/2" groups and of course with me behind the peep...lotz & lotz larger than that! :bigsmyl2:
I think the trick to trimming those shooter induced fliers is to have a day with some bright light...few to no clouds and I'll gladly take 2 mph or less full value wind...that may show us a 3/8" group or two in the next 2 or 3 cards?
I measured that rear peep the other day and it turned out to be .040", you can see why I'm needing lotz of light!

Harry...Thank You my old little brother, very kind words there & after all you have done for me, what I did was a drop in the bucket in comparison!
You are so welcome & I'm glad I can finally do something for you.

[Ithaca Gunner]

I tend to get lost a bit in these long threads so maybe it's been brought up and I don't remember, have you tried a dab or two of bedding compound to marry the action to the stock?

[OS OK]

I tend to get lost a bit in these long threads so maybe it's been brought up and I don't remember, have you tried a dab or two of bedding compound to marry the action to the stock?

No I haven't...she is bone stock butt to muzzle. One thing though, that action & barrel drop in sung as a bug in a rug. Just sitting there it doesn't have any slack movement fore to aft.

[OS OK]

Alright...I finally got that sunny day...and shot a 3/8"s group...heheee...but I left at least 3 of them on the table!

It's always the goof yankin the trigger that let's us down every time...right? I had plenty light, hardly any wind and the temp was 66ºƒ...couldn't ask for better :bigsmyl2:

I knew it was going to be a good day so I started off dotting 'i's & crossing 't's...I was a man on a mission this morning.

https://i.imgur.com/oybHFHu.jpg

I don't believe it was the ammo that caused these fliers...it was me, no excuses....I added two more sessions to yesterday's card (it's highlighted in yellow), all in all, I'm pleased...I think I'll call it here instead of pushing for another card and trying for multiple 3/8's groups. The rifle is better at it's job than I am at mine.

https://i.imgur.com/U4acURE.jpg

Since I have a couple more days like today coming tomorrow and the next day...I think I'll pull the tuner in the morning and see what that rifle does without it?
Unless of course, I've overlooked something, in which case I'm open for suggestions...?

[tazman]

I think the groups you fired today show what the rifle is capable of with the "tuner" and good ammo. Very good shooting, by the way. I know I am not capable of that without an optic.
I will be interested to see what it does without the tuner.

[OS OK]

Here's the first test of the Rem 33-P without the home-spun tuner attached...using the Eley Match...

https://i.imgur.com/2trskPw.jpg

Pretty tight groups. Here's a comparison to the last tuner test, looking close at the individual groups I think today's test looks a little more spread out even though they are small groups. They agg'd at .741" so I can't say they aren't tight, just loose looking if that make sense?

https://i.imgur.com/XdlOAVD.jpg

I may have been spending all this time for nothing other than entertainment?

[tazman]

Somebody who posted in one of your threads before was able to do an aggregate of all the groups shot by doing an overlay so all the groups became one large group. They were able to measure the standard deviation of each bullet from the center. That would be the best way to do the comparison between these two cards. With the overlay, you could at least get a better idea of what you have even without the standard deviation.
I do not have the capability or the software to do that.

I have to agree that the last card shown seems to have tighter clusters even though the outside measurements are very close. Is it really the setup or were you just having a more consistent day?

I am not certain you have enough cards to do a good comparison. The groups are so similar.

[dverna]

Tazman is correct. When performance is close, it takes a lot of groups to determine if there is a statistical difference. But the reality is if it is that close....does it matter?

I have been going through this with the work I am going with pellets. I have shot over 250 groups. In the end, I found pellets that shot better than but they cost three times as much. In my case, for hunting and plinking, a difference of 1/4” at 50 yards was not significant enough. I wound up getting 14k cheap pellets for a cost was $175. I saved $350. If I was competing, it would matter and I would use the more accurate pellets for matches. But my needs are sub 1” at 50 yards and cheap trigger time.

In your case, will a 1/8” or 1/4” difference matter? Good enough may be good enough.

To be frank, I will shoot up some premium pellets to post some bragging groups but it is more for ego. I just hope I do not find something that averages .4” and costs $20/500. Then I may regret having thousands of cheap pellets...LOL.

[OS OK]

Another pretty exceptional day for shooting...so I ran another card without the tuner.

https://i.imgur.com/a1FJt9X.jpg

I still see them as loose groups.
It's not so much about finding something that is good enough but rather, what does the tuner do or not do. I am experimenting.
I'm pretty much convinced that the tuner is doing it's job and tightening these loose groups.

It could be adjusted perhaps 1/4" out from the muzzle but it isn't really a tunable tuner like the CZ has. It was just a guess of sorts...trying to see if I could fool the barrel into reacting as if it were actually longer than it is and having that first node in the barrel shift towards the muzzle.

I think I'll call this a done deal experiment. I have some other ideas for making a 'pencil barrel' tuner that is actually 'tuneable'. Harry Tobin is going to help me with this.
Currently I'm trying to locate a Lyman 55W peep sight for my Winchester 67A, if I score on the peep, I'll build that tuner and test it on the W67A.

[444ttd]

i do that with a 3x9x swift in a ruger 10/22!!!!!! i have a marlin m25 youth in 22lr with a 4x bushnell(i think). it was given to me by my dad as a christmas present(new m25) in 1984. i can't remember how many squirrels, groundhogs, foxes, racoons and all the other small game animals and targets(plastic army guys, cans....) i shot. back in the day, i shot everything i could get my hands on(22lr), remmies, feds, winnies to name few. i could do 1/2 - 3/4" group(7 shots/bench) at 50 yards with cci mini mags with 36gr hp. it was expensive for a 13yo, $3-5 for 100 rounds, so i regulated them to squirrels and other small game.

i've been trying to a c&r 22 rifle for about a year now, but they are expensive. i got my eye on a j stevens favorite in 22lr and a marlin no 20 at a auction.

[Winger Ed.]

If the barrel isn't trashed out, and you do your part, expectations of 1" groups at 50 yards is quite realistic
unless you are using ammo that is just junk.

[dverna]

I have posted this comment before but it bears repeating....

OS OK does what almost no one else has ever done or will do. He shows ALL his groups. Not just the good ones. He has discipline and honesty.

I have had a pet peeve about accuracy claims for decades. OS OK is the real deal...and I respect him for how he tests. I decided to do the same when I started wringing our my new air guns. Every group gets recorded.

I have 3 sub .25" groups at 50 yards with an air gun....but that is not reality.
I have 35 sub .50" groups at 50 yards with an air gun...but that is not reality.
I also have 18 groups that went over 1.0"
Reality for that rifle is .76" for 213 groups. (all are 5 shot groups)

I hope folks making accuracy claims inject a small amount of reality. Say, 5 consecutive 5 shot groups without any "called fliers"...every shot counts for record. But that will never happen...egos are too sensitive. And it is so expensive to shoot 25 rounds...LOL. And so boring to shoot paper...LOL.

444ttd, you may be able to do what OS OK can do with your scoped 10/22. I have two stock 10/22's and mine are not capable of 3/4" inch groups at 50 yards. Maybe you got a good one!

[tazman]

I recently purchased and ended up selling a 10/22. The best "group" I got with it was about three inches------at twenty five yards. Average was about four inches. Very poor rifle. I tried every adjustment anyone suggested to get it going except replacing the barrel.
I really like the old bolt action rifles. I still have the first one I ever owned. It isn't a target grade rifle but it will still take squirrels consistently out to 50 yards. 95% of my squirrel shots come at less than 20 yards. Usually, I am almost under the tree the squirrel is in. I seldom get to try long shots anyway.

I am also seriously impressed with OS OK's shooting abilities. He is far more capable with iron sights than I am. The only way I can come close to him is with a scope.

[444ttd]

444ttd, you may be able to do what OS OK can do with your scoped 10/22. I have two stock 10/22's and mine are not capable of 3/4" inch groups at 50 yards. Maybe you got a good one!


my 10/22 can do 1 - 1 3/4" group with federal 36gr hp(550 round pack). if i use remington thunderbolt, cci standard or winchester hp, the groups are 2 1/2" + at 50 yards. i have bought two other 10/22's(my son's) and they do 1 - 2" groups also. i can't remember what kind of ammo, i think its cci or armscor. my dad has one, although i don't know what grouping he has. they are all stock too.

its amazing that OS OK can do that!!! my hat is off to you!!!

[OS OK]

Don, thank you...those are very kind words, I am humbled.
You have to remember that I'm running 3 different threads, 3 different disciplines & styles of rifles...the whole thing in all the threads is an experiment. It is very easy to put myself outside the box and just record what happens. The good, bad & the Ugly doesn't affect my Ego...I have to leave that out to get good data. Someday I'll get to the bottom of one of these 'rabbit holes'? :bigsmyl2:

444ttd...I don't remember which Y-Tube channel I visited but one of the content creators has the 10-22 with a custom bull carbine length barrel and that kid shoots cloverleafs & bugholes...but, the rifle is ammo sensitive also.

tazman... If you look back in the vintage & MKII threads you'll remember that I'm no stranger to shooting 2"+ groups also. The success I am having with this Rem 33-P is due to the peep & post-bead. I am being very careful how I set up each shot. That front bead is so small that it just works well in relation to the 3" black spots. It works even better when I have good to bright light conditions and I can bring the silouette of that bead up under the white 1" spot.

https://i.imgur.com/7cRcRPS.jpg

In the above picture the top left 2 targets have a 2" white sticker for a bull and all the rest have a 1" white sticker...the photo was taken on a dim day so they don't really stand out like they do when the light is much better, but...you can see how that bead can be carefully placed up under the spot and centered well pretty easily.

[tazman]

OS----That was the whole point of this/these project/s of yours. Learning to get the groups smaller. Your original stated goal was to be able to consistently shoot groups of around one inch at 50 yards. You are progressing so well that it is hard to remember that you were not as good as you are now.
I believe you have not reached your peak abilities yet.
I would not be surprised to find you shooting consistently under .750 inches within the next few months using your peep sights. It may be you will get even better than that in time. Your progress has been amazing.
Doing all of this while shooting several different firearms is great.
The very best part of all of this is that we can collaborate. While we are doing very similar things, we are not doing them in competition with each other. We can use each others experiences to find ways to make ourselves better. Sharing our thoughts, perspectives, and experiences as well as our results is important to this.
There is far too much to be learned in this field to be selfish or egotistical about what we do.

[OS OK]

"The very best part of all of this is that we can collaborate. While we are doing very similar things, we are not doing them in competition with each other. We can use each others experiences to find ways to make ourselves better. Sharing our thoughts, perspectives, and experiences as well as our results is important to this.
There is far too much to be learned in this field to be selfish or egotistical about what we do. "

You nailed it right there taz...
You know that 'C-4' I ordered from Brownells came in...I think it's time to relax on this Rem 33 and find out if that C-4 will do anything to that black hearted barrel of the MKII?
I was planning on getting some before/after photos of the barrel and posting on your thread the results if that's OK by you?

I found a better cleaning fluid for my 22LR https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?432981-I-found-a-better-cleaning-fluid-for-my-22LR

If it'll get that barrel silver again I will be amazed...I've never seen a nastier barrel before....

...but then, I'm new to this 'Barrel Proctology' practice...the world could be full of these 'group spoilers'! :bigsmyl2:

[tazman]

Go right ahead. I would like to see the before and after pics. I would also like to hear your thoughts and results on any difficulties or fine tuning of the process.
I posted that thread for information and feedback. ANY feedback. Positive or negative.

One thing I did find out about the process. The instructions call for leaving the barrel wet for 15 minutes or so. I find that if you can leave the barrel wet for longer, say 30-60 minutes, it allows the chemicals to do a better jib of softening and lifting the carbon fouling than the suggested time does.
Since the chemicals will not harm the steel of the barrel, this isn't a problem, just time consuming.

[OS OK]

Go right ahead. I would like to see the before and after pics. I would also like to hear your thoughts and results on any difficulties or fine tuning of the process.
I posted that thread for information and feedback. ANY feedback. Positive or negative.

One thing I did find out about the process. The instructions call for leaving the barrel wet for 15 minutes or so. I find that if you can leave the barrel wet for longer, say 30-60 minutes, it allows the chemicals to do a better jib of softening and lifting the carbon fouling than the suggested time does.
Since the chemicals will not harm the steel of the barrel, this isn't a problem, just time consuming.

I will devise a better method of plugging the barrel...say 2 inches before the muzzle, fill the bore with the C4 and allow it to sit for a full hour...how's that?
(maybe I can use a part of a foam earplug to plug the barrel?)

[tazman]

Test the earplug with the solution to see if it dissolves.
Since I was only concerned with the chamber area more than the rest of the barrel, I soaked a bore mop and left it in the chamber.
Rather than fill the bore with chemical, I think I would use multiple wet patches and just keep running wet patches through the barrel every few minutes. Use a brush to loosen and clean out whatever has been softened and run another wet patch through. Use a non metallic(nylon) brush if you have one. No wear on the barrel that way.

My MTR responded well after 30 minutes. My old rifle, which had decades of build up in it, took three applications with 30 minute waits before it came clean.
Like I said, this can be time consuming.

[dverna]

OS----That was the whole point of this/these project/s of yours. Learning to get the groups smaller. Your original stated goal was to be able to consistently shoot groups of around one inch at 50 yards. You are progressing so well that it is hard to remember that you were not as good as you are now.
I believe you have not reached your peak abilities yet.
I would not be surprised to find you shooting consistently under .750 inches within the next few months using your peep sights. It may be you will get even better than that in time. Your progress has been amazing.
Doing all of this while shooting several different firearms is great.
The very best part of all of this is that we can collaborate. While we are doing very similar things, we are not doing them in competition with each other. We can use each others experiences to find ways to make ourselves better. Sharing our thoughts, perspectives, and experiences as well as our results is important to this.
There is far too much to be learned in this field to be selfish or egotistical about what we do.

Tazman,
You nailed it. We all want to shoot as well as we can, but that does not mean raising ourselves up by holding others back and keeping “secrets” we find along the way.

I like the saying...a rising tide lifts all boats. We learn from our mistakes and successes, and we learn from the experience of others too.

[OS OK]

Tazman,
You nailed it. We all want to shoot as well as we can, but that does not mean raising ourselves up by holding others back and keeping “secrets” we find along the way.

I like the saying...a rising tide lifts all boats. We learn from our mistakes and successes, and we learn from the experience of others too.

"Don...YOU JUST NAILED IT!"

[dverna]

I will devise a better method of plugging the barrel...say 2 inches before the muzzle, fill the bore with the C4 and allow it to sit for a full hour...how's that?
(maybe I can use a part of a foam earplug to plug the barrel?)

OS OK, couple of ideas to plug the barrel. I believe some of the guys that blue barrels will drive a tapered wooden dowel into the barrel to seal it. Another idea would be to use the tip of nitrile glove over the muzzle and tape it on with something like duct tape or Gorilla tape.

Found this on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/Pack-Solid-Rubber-Stopper-White/dp/B07YLGQL6T

The #000 size is 8mm and could be sanded down to fit.

Good luck!

[OS OK]

OS OK, couple of ideas to plug the barrel. I believe some of the guys that blue barrels will drive a tapered wooden dowel into the barrel to seal it. Another idea would be to use the tip of nitrile glove over the muzzle and tape it on with something like duct tape or Gorilla tape.

Found this on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/Pack-Solid-Rubber-Stopper-White/dp/B07YLGQL6T

The #000 size is 8mm and could be sanded down to fit.

Good luck!

Thanks Don...this gives me some ideas. I have some surgical tubing that was used to cut circulation on a wound, old skool stuff...I'll try a little chunk of that.
I want to seal that barrel about 2" on the chamber side of the muzzle. I want to keep the carbon buildup in that last section of the barrel.

[OS OK]

Test the earplug with the solution to see if it dissolves.
Since I was only concerned with the chamber area more than the rest of the barrel, I soaked a bore mop and left it in the chamber.
Rather than fill the bore with chemical, I think I would use multiple wet patches and just keep running wet patches through the barrel every few minutes. Use a brush to loosen and clean out whatever has been softened and run another wet patch through. Use a non metallic(nylon) brush if you have one. No wear on the barrel that way.

My MTR responded well after 30 minutes. My old rifle, which had decades of build up in it, took three applications with 30 minute waits before it came clean.
Like I said, this can be time consuming.

If I can't get it to plug I can do it your way with a mop, that's easy enough.

thanks taz

[OS OK]

I have been trying to find peep sights for the Win. 67A & the Wards Western Field 46D so that I can re-introduce those vintage rifles in this thread all set up for peep & post/bead.
Looks like I am going to score the WWF 46D's peep first so I took her out this morning to set the bar with the Eley Contact and open iron sights...3" spots with 2" & 1" white bulls. (I wanted to see which bull would be easier to see, I do struggle with open sights at 50 yards!)

https://i.imgur.com/1g0f1aA.jpg

The front sight is missing the bead that was once there so I ordered a new 3/8's dovetail X .360" high X 1/16'th beaded post.
This is one of my favorite vintage .22's, it has a great trigger and is capable of so much more than I've demonstrated here, can't wait to get it set up for peep & post/bead!

[Prairie Traveler]

cool!

[Prairie Traveler]

I still have the Win. 69A, my Dad bought me, when I was in the 5th grade. It still shoots better than I can see!291773

[444ttd]

I have been trying to find peep sights for the Win. 67A & the Wards Western Field 46D so that I can re-introduce those vintage rifles in this thread all set up for peep & post/bead.
Looks like I am going to score the WWF 46D's peep first so I took her out this morning to set the bar with the Eley Contact and open iron sights...3" spots with 2" & 1" white bulls. (I wanted to see which bull would be easier to see, I do struggle with open sights at 50 yards!)

https://i.imgur.com/1g0f1aA.jpg

The front sight is missing the bead that was once there so I ordered a new 3/8's dovetail X .360" high X 1/16'th beaded post.
This is one of my favorite vintage .22's, it has a great trigger and is capable of so much more than I've demonstrated here, can't wait to get it set up for peep & post/bead!



well all i gots to say is.............WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

great shootin!!!!!!!!

[OS OK]

I got a peep sight for the Wards Western Field 46D... and it wasn't the original peep that came back in the day, this is a newer one that looks to me to be a Williams although the seller didn't refer to it as such. Heck I don't know, I'm such a Neophyte to all this vintage equipment.
Anyway, I measured it up against the barrel and cut the stock so it would fit...

https://i.imgur.com/iCbn2SK.jpg

I had a little trouble with the plug screws that were in the receiver, I used heat several times with a penetrating oil, gave it a few whacks to loosen them up...it was a battle. One gave up it's 80+ year hold and backed out and the other held fast. I had to resort to a drill and easy-out...nerve wracking! I kept hearing in my head the tips-n-tricks of that gunsmith who is always restoring old rifles, rifles that are basically rust buckets...sorry I can't recall his name but I owe my success today to him.

https://i.imgur.com/nP9eW8H.jpg

First thing was to try to align the sights with the existing front post at 17 yards. I ended up aiming at the 6:00 of the 3" black spot and was hitting 12:00 on the 'X'...that was with the front post buried in the peep so I could just barely see the post and the peep was adjusted all the way down. That was about 1.75" high.

https://i.imgur.com/9jf8ubc.jpg

I had ordered what I thought was a tall post & bead so I would be ready for today but I found out the hard way that these posts are measured from the bottom of the dovetail & not the top of the barrel. Oh well...live and learn...

https://i.imgur.com/hdoafBG.jpg

I backed up to the 50 and thought I'd use the same sight alignment...

https://i.imgur.com/xwsHAnr.jpg

I got a total of 1 (one) shot in at the 50 yard bench, here's why...

https://i.imgur.com/2DrIdS4.jpg

It hit 7.5" high of the warmer spot. Well, that was an end to it for the day. I suppose I'll have to find a globe assembly for the front dovetail, sorta like the MKII has.
I could use some help on this part. I'm thinking of buying a Williams front globe assembly since I already have so many globes & posts for that sight.
But...should there be some of you that have already been down this road, I'm open for suggestions and of course links to where you found your front assembly.
I would appreciate that very much.

charlie

[Pressman]

I don't have any experience sourcing older peep sights, but I need a couple. I would think the Williams front sight would work well in this application, and you have parts.
That old Wards/Mossberg is a shooter, get good sights and you will be impressed with what it can do.

[OS OK]

I don't have any experience sourcing older peep sights, but I need a couple. I would think the Williams front sight would work well in this application, and you have parts.
That old Wards/Mossberg is a shooter, get good sights and you will be impressed with what it can do.

I haven't found a lot of information on this rifle but found this on a quick search...

(The Wards Model 46 cross references to the Mossberg Model 42, Takedown, 22 lr,l,s, 7-shot detachable box magazine. 24" barrel. Weight 5 lbs. Pistol grip stock made to NRA specifications, 1.25" swivels. Chrome plated bolt, handle and trigger. No. 1A ramp front sight, No. S134 rear sight, No. 3 receiver sight. Made 1935-1937. See http://home.epix.net/~damguy/ For Mossberg related topics.)

Ever little bit helps.
I think I have two options on the front sight...I have this gear on order from Midway.
I would prefer the tall post/bead so fingers crossed that it will work.

https://i.imgur.com/BRC9k5e.jpg

[Ithaca Gunner]

I have grand-dad's old Mossberg M-42B and despite it's looks and wear, it's still a surprising good shooter considering the not so friendly sights on it.

[OS OK]

Parts arrived a couple days ago...for the Wards Western Field 46D...

https://i.imgur.com/1tjOoo4.jpg

I had planned to use a post/bead front sight so I could have the same sight picture I get on the Rem. 33-P but even at this height, it was still too short. My option was to mount the Williams Globe front sight and that was what had to happen. It seems that this rifle doesn't have a standard 3/8's dovetail for the front end, it is slightly smaller so it took some file work on the Williams base to get the base to fit.
Got that done and set up on the 25 yard line first...

https://i.imgur.com/yRWBey2.jpg

I sorta dialed it in...I was in a hurry to move back to the 50.

https://i.imgur.com/WMmkPm5.jpg

It took some adjustment to center the sights up better...this was not going to be the quick sight change I thought it would be. I was having trouble.
The first time on the 50 with the peep & globe is the second card here. The first card was shot with the iron sights...

https://i.imgur.com/Tfe98mP.jpg

Not very impressive. I could see right off that I needed a custom cheek rest, I am all over this comb searching for an anchor and it was not to be. Here like with the CZ452 and the Sav. MKII I have to improvise a cheek rest and modify this until I have it just right. I will shim the carpenters pencil again until I have it parallel to the barrel. Then I'll make one to add to the comb of this rifle for keeps.

https://i.imgur.com/XtZ8AbZ.jpg

In the card below you can see the 'associations of rounds' (LOL - I can't call'em groups yet!) are roving all over the spot. This is me searching for that perfect and repeatable anchor for the cheek weld.

https://i.imgur.com/jQIirPJ.jpg

I had taken the adjustable iris peep off the MKII to try it here on the 46D but I'm not sure I'll order one for this rifle...I think I need a fixed .040" aperture.
Harry Tobin made me several inserts to use with the stock aperture that Williams sends with this unit. I will most like use one of Harry's creations.

https://i.imgur.com/eUoNDw4.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/aVLRdtn.jpg?1

They just slip right into the back of the Williams .050" aperture and reduce it to .040"...that's the aperture size on the Rem. 33-P and I like it even in dim light.

https://i.imgur.com/1DZsFJu.jpg

So, that's the progress for now...I'm going to have to put some work into this 46D if I'm ever going to show some good groups that are better than these 'associations of rounds' that I showed here today ... :bigsmyl2:

[tazman]

If it was easy, anybody could do it. You are doing better than you think.

[dverna]

Charlie, I cannot remember if you tried this. Some people do not use a check weld and say they shoot better groups that way. One less thing to get "right".

I tried it with my PCP rifle when I was struggling, and it did not help me at all. Once I started shooting decent groups the "normal" way I gave up on the technique. Spending the last 60+ years with my cheek somewhere on the stock is a tough habit to break for this old dog. But I may try it again in the spring. Just too damn cold to shoot in MI now...15* this morning!!!

[OS OK]

tazman... this is one of my favorite old rifles, I'm tickled to finally have it set up proper. Eventually I'll get'er done ... :bigsmyl2:

Don...when I bought the CZ452 it was set up for long range, tall scope mounts & no cheek rest. I tried to shoot it that way for a little while, I couldn't make it work for me, all I got was a literal pain in my neck from trying to keep my head from bobbing. That 36X scope has a short focal length, there's no room to be unsteady.
Old Skool has done it to me also, I have to have a solid cheek weld.

https://i.imgur.com/pbpukL5.jpg

[tazman]

I have a CZ452 Trainer that comes from the factory set up for iron sights. I have a scope on it with high rings to clear the rear sight.
I have to shoot it with my cheek off the stock but I found out it likes it that way.

[OS OK]

A GAME CHANGER...this 3-D printing that we have seen doing everything you can imagine just changed my little world here at home...AGAIN!

As you have seen, I have been experimenting with the cheek rest with a carpenters pencil to get the height just right and then going to the table saw and router to shape what I needed to install on my BR rifles...

https://i.imgur.com/qj2zCPU.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/B2UXqVj.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/FLPDwLR.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/96SENSc.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/yHfVhtW.jpg

Here again I am experimenting with the Wards 46D to get the right height & shape for a comb riser...

https://i.imgur.com/v6LsZFd.jpg

Harry and I were talking on the phone yesterday and I asked about him printing one of these odd shapes. Asked if I were able to copy the shapes accurately, could he print a comb riser?
Of course nothing daunts Harry...He stepped right up to the plate! Later in the afternoon he e-mailed this CAD drawing as an example...
When I have the height correct so the riser is parallel to the barrel I'll send Harry the dimensions.
I think I may be able to mount these risers with double sided tape, cushioning and shimming any imperfections and negating any need to use screws in these old vintage stocks. That I would like a great deal.

So ... Harry Tobin ... "Your the best my friend, I don't deserve so much of your time & attention and effort but I sure do appreciate it!"

charlie

[OS OK]

Headed out to slay the dragon this morning... I have my cheek riser parallel to the bore, I've got the best of weather to test...but there's something here that's going to come back and bite me!

https://i.imgur.com/4GzDeWn.jpg

It went well as far as reducing group size but it did not stop the meandering of the groups on the spot.
Notice all the sight adjustments, that's not what I normally do in a test. I had a problem that was right under my nose and didn't see it.

https://i.imgur.com/Ci74uIH.jpg

As I was packing up to take it all to the shop, I noticed the riser I had just shimmed. This explains why I made all the site adjustments. Why didn't I notice this right off the bat? I don't know other than my focus was on the sights and getting as perfect of a POA as possible.

https://i.imgur.com/gch76K9.jpg

Well...this negates this test but it sure taught me a lesson...
"PAY ATTENTION!"

[OS OK]

This should solve the collapsed spacer problem...a solid piece of wood...

https://i.imgur.com/dw5G1r2.jpg

Still something is not right...I am firmly planted on the cheek rest now and still the groups are meandering and wide open?

https://i.imgur.com/zxtk4Mp.jpg

I may have a clue though...after shooting the first 6 targets I took the rifle to the shop and traded the globes out for a different configuration & shot the last 2 targets with it.
I think I can see that 'eye ballancing thing' a little better with the globe outside diameter a little larger?
Not sure but I'll find out this morning...it seems that there is a never ending set of tweaks to get a good rifle to shoot better & they mostly pertain to tweaking the shooter! :bigsmyl2:

[OS OK]

Next morning, another trip in the rabbit hole... I don't know if it's my age, that I am forgetful of things these days...or...whether I get so focused on something that I neglect some of the lessons I've learned along the way?

At least I have those little 'thoughts' that flicker for a moment and then disappear somewhere in the grey matter. I had the thought this morning that I should check the condition of the chamber with the bore scope to make sure that my morning swabbing of Hoppes is keeping the chamber clean.

https://i.imgur.com/JqPpbr1.jpg

I had previously used the C4 BoreTech in this barrel to clean it well but had gone back to my morning routine of swabbing the chamber with Hoppes before I shoot. I had been assuming that the chamber would not have that build up of carbon.
So I took a look at the fresh swabbed chamber, this is what I found...

https://i.imgur.com/NBav2QL.jpg

This can't be? I swab that chamber before each 40 shots of the day...the Hoppes can't allow this to happen! Or did it?
I use the C4 again on a nylon brush, maybe 10 swipes in and out of the chamber alone and looked again...

https://i.imgur.com/HQNt3DA.jpg

OK tazman...I've learned my lesson (this time). Is it habit or is it the familiar smell of Hopes that has been burned into memory since I was about 10 years old? Why do I still reach for that bottle for a chamber swab?
Well...it won't happen anymore, reluctantly I put it back into the cabinet and only the C4 will remain on the bench.

I patched up the target from the 29'th, placed it on the backstop and got back on the bench..."Dang-it man, this old rifle looks like it is a great shooter sitting there on the bags, it triggers so well, never has a hang-up cycling the rounds from the magazine...it is solid. But I am having to back up and re-learn things all over again, I'm having trouble doing my part!"

https://i.imgur.com/7ZSXbYi.jpg

Today's card was a calamity of errors. It was a perfect morning for shooting and as I do every time, I go out to 'slay the dragon' only to be caught up in something I am doing wrong...

https://i.imgur.com/uJI0g6L.jpg

Still...no results as I had envisioned? I do see the 'so-called groups' (associations of rounds) are not coming together under an inch...they are a little more closely associated but not nearly what I expect to see!
I have the cheek riser at the proper height but still it is not where I thought I'd be now. The only thing I can offer up as a 'possible reason' for this (other than myself just totally dropping the ball) is the fact that I have used all the Eley Contact that I got those great groups with using the Remington 33-P and now I am into a fresh batch of 4 bricks I ordered earlier last month.

I suppose I should get the Crony out and see what this batch is doing ballistics-wise...that'd help to find the problem(s).
Another thing I want to do is to use the dremel to shape a single post insert to resemble the front post-bead on the Rem. 33-P...

https://i.imgur.com/yYdx6BX.jpg

This was an easy sight picture for me to work with...I think I'll be in the 'rabbit hole' for some time with this WWF 46D.
That's OK...the only other thing I have to do these days is make War on lots of Mole Colonies!

https://i.imgur.com/n0bwz7z.jpg

[tazman]

LOL!!!
I have trouble learning some things until I have my nose rubbed in it myself. I bet you remember now.

I am also familiar with the mole issue. I have a couple of overachieving/hyperactive moles here myself.
What are you running down into the holes?
I wonder if you could run the exhaust down into there and kill them with carbon monoxide?

[hoodat]

LOL!!!
I have trouble learning some things until I have my nose rubbed in it myself. I bet you remember now.

I am also familiar with the mole issue. I have a couple of overachieving/hyperactive moles here myself.
What are you running down into the holes?
I wonder if you could run the exhaust down into there and kill them with carbon monoxide?

I've been having pretty good luck with the exhaust/carbon monoxide method. Don't really know if it kills them, or pushes them out to different area. Got no proof of death. :roll: jd

[OS OK]

Tazman & hoodat... That blue rubber hose is pluged into my exhaust of a 3 cylinder diesel in that yard buggy.
I pour a couple ounces of Ammonia and a couple ounces of Clorox in the hose and plug it into the tail pipe.
I run it for 5 minutes and reseal their holes up.
It looks like I'm winning this fight. I keep all the little mounds raked flat so I can see quickly where the new activity is. They leave air holes cleverly hidden in the grass where they don't push dirt out, you have to be careful to locate them. Sometimes they leave a little spill where they push through but most of the time it's less than a coffee cup full.

https://i.imgur.com/rSUlJmp.jpg

These are tough lil'Buggers!

Baby Girl and Max kill their fair share but they leave God Awful trenches and holes in the yard...when I go to mow it's back jarring.

https://i.imgur.com/OfJbHjk.jpg

Right now I'm just making war in the 4 acres I have fenced for the dogs, I have a 2 acre pasture that I have to tackle next.

[tazman]

I have half a city block here. The moles only infest one end of it, thankfully. That end has a sand slope, but they will sometimes work their way down to the black dirt around a couple of the trees.
Not uncommon to get up and find as many as ten new hills pushed up. My lawn mower flattens them out but I don't like doing it that way. The front of the mower deck will flatten the hill but the blade always picks up some of the loose dirt.

[OS OK]

Well...not much progress to report tonight... I have been searching for the right globe or post combination with the peep that'd work for me but no success yet.
This is the last shape I shot this morning...

https://i.imgur.com/Be3UYw6.jpg

Thinking that sharp point would be more exact in the POA but my eyesight is the limiting factor. The light has been plentiful but I just haven't found the right globe/post insert yet.
I have used one of Harry's peep inserts for the peep and drilled it out to .040" and snapped it into the .050" peep but that was too restrictive and I got too much diffraction. That made the sharp point on the post fuzzy and you can see I strung them vertically pretty bad.

https://i.imgur.com/ALgmrP1.jpg

Even this combination hasn't worked, I didn't even bother to measure the groups...I've decided to keep trying combinations of front globe/post and rear peep diameters until I find the right combination...then I'll get back down to working a small group if I can do so? I have high hopes for this old rifle.

https://i.imgur.com/BE2GHQj.jpg

I had another AD on bolt closure this morning, I thought I had cured that by cleaning the bolt inside and out and re-lubing ... this was about 1/2 through the card.
I stopped everything and took the rifle in the shop and tore it down again. I decided to reface the worn sear on the trigger and get a fresh face on it. After 80 years of shooting in these old vintage rifles the sears tend to wear against each other and the harder part tends to round-over the other part.
I got that done and went back out to finish the card but as you can see I didn't make any grouping improvements.
At least the sear problem is over...no more AD's!

EDIT...I mentioned the other day that I wanted to take the chrony out and see what this new batch of 4 bricks of Eley Contact was doing ballistically.

Here's the numbers for a 38 shot string done on the 1'st of Dec.

High....................... 1173
Low........................ 1043
Average.................. 1077
Extreme Spread....... 74
Standard Deviation... 16

The last time I chrono'd a long string (40 shots) of Eley Contact was 7-2-21 and that was the 4 bricks I've been using since and just ran out of...

High....................... 1101
Low........................ 1031
Average.................. 1073
Extreme Spread....... 70
Standard Deviation... 16

Fairly consistent ammo for $4.75 a box.

[tazman]

That post should give you a more precise aiming point, but only if you can see it clearly.
I am well aware of the limiting factor of eyesight. My eyes will no longer allow me to use open sights or peep sights effectively except under very specific limited circumstances.
Even when your eyes allow it, open sight configurations are a very personal thing. What works well for one person may not work for another, hence all the choices that are available.
I wish you luck on your search for that perfect combination and envy your ability to use them as well as you do.
For anything approaching precision, I am now limited to optics.
Handgun usage at fairly close range(under 25 yards) is a whole different thing and is the only circumstance where I can make iron sights work.

[dverna]

FWIW, when I shot smallbore the most precise sight arrangement for me was using an aperture front. I could never get the same scores with a post front. With the deteriorating eyesight I have now, a front post would be even worse.

Your eye will naturally line up an equal amount of "fuzziness" around a round picture...a post requires sharp definition to get it lined up every time. You will notice front sight insert assortments have more aperture inserts than posts.

Not sure if this has been discussed but I had shooting glasses made a few years ago that had the focus point for the aiming eye lense at the front sight. That helped me a lot.

[OS OK]

tazman...I wish you luck on your search for that perfect combination and envy your ability to use them as well as you do.

dverna...Your eye will naturally line up an equal amount of "fuzziness" around a round picture...a post requires sharp definition to get it lined up every time. You will notice front sight insert assortments have more aperture inserts than posts.

One thing I do have, thanks to HARRY TOBIN's generosity with his 3-D printer is a heckuva assortment of globes of every size and shape Harry could imagine (even made some to experiment with the diffraction so we could better understand the dynamics of that).
What I need to do is go through them and try them all on a series of spots and just see what I can see, see what makes that 'natural alignment' just pop out at me.

https://i.imgur.com/OXCIuR9.jpg

[OS OK]

Back on the 4'th...I think I've settled on this peep Harry Tobin made...when a 3" black spot is centered it pops out to the eye pretty good. Still the groups (so called groups) tend to mosey around the POA and that's got to be fixed. I think that part is all in my cheek weld.

https://i.imgur.com/oK56sR9.jpg

This morning...it was a bit overcast to foggy, it was blowing in and out but I had ample light. I thought the light level was better than the bright sunlight because there is less glare.

https://i.imgur.com/RdN441n.jpg

Overall, I think the groups are starting to meander around the POA a little less. I am concentrating on that cheek weld & getting it the same each time...

https://i.imgur.com/7fFrzY5.jpg

[tazman]

Working in the setup on a different rifle is always interesting and sometimes challenging. If it was always the same, it would get boring.

[OS OK]

Well taz... I am at the point where I need to go off line with the shooting of this rifle and get the dimensions of this comb copied with Bondo...then I can mail them to Harry Tobin and he'll get a riser printed.

https://i.imgur.com/dw5G1r2.jpg

Harry made a Y-Tube movie for me where he explained the whole process of making the mould cups that he needs for the CAD system and his printer...
It looks simple enough but there's a lot more to it than meets the eye.

https://i.imgur.com/QOPpkvc.jpg

Then mix up the Bondo and fill & tamp the stuff into the mould...

https://i.imgur.com/vwxX34I.jpg

Let it sit and cure for an hour or so...

https://i.imgur.com/Q5809S7.jpg

Now I have an exact copy of the contours of the comb front & rear...all I have to add is a simple drawing of the length and height front to rear & the shape I want and Harry can get all this entered into CAD and then translate the CAD instructions into the printer language that the printer will follow.

https://i.imgur.com/NlKf5QM.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/TZXU9Rm.jpg

Stuff that's so far above my head it isn't funny...what would I do without my best friend Harry Tobin?

[tazman]

That is way beyond anything I know how to do. Good luck with that project.
Nice to have helpful friends.

[Bill*B]

Ah, the Winchester 67. Around 60 years ago - when I was about 14, I wandered into a second hand store in Bristol, TN with a transistor radio that I had won in a contest. A "Boy's Model" 67 was hanging on the wall. I proposed a trade - the proprietor examined my radio for a few seconds, and then handed me the carbine. I shot that little fellow for years, decimating the bottle cap and tin cap population of our little farm. Probably had more fun with it than all the subsequent rifles that have followed ...