Black verses 20 ga Sh-Sh slug

[Blood Trail]

The 20 ga won. This isn’t a fast, blazing load. Only moving at a little over 1200 fps, it easily dispatched this brute.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210909/ee3ab16ae33ab2be8f0afcef2d5ba405.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210909/8c139d672a303a7b6ce3e56c82bb593b.jpg


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[megasupermagnum]

Fantastic. Great minds think alike.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Leon: That doesn't look like Texas? Where did you shoot that one?

People should note the comment about his Velocity of @1200 fps. I maintain that there is no need for Super Hi Zoot Butt Kicker Slug Loads for 99% of your slug shooting. Also we've seen some pics of other animals Leon has shot with those slugs (12 ga.) and they do make a powerful impression.

If you are going for Polar Bears then maybe something more powerful.

I know all the Polar Bear Guides in Churchill MA Canada, carry ordinary Police Style Pump Shotguns (870's) loaded with Brenneke Slugs.

Many of the Brenneke loads qualify as "Top of the Line Butt Kickers," and touching one off is probably considered a last resort type of thing. But good to know you'll only have to shoot once.

If all I had in a Polar Bear encounter was a Low Recoil Federal Slug and a gun that was decently accurate I wouldn't feel under gunned. Especially if I had 5 more shots to get it right.

See my newest Polar Bear Gun. see pic

Always Remember,,, Nothing Lives thru a Slug!


Randy

[Blood Trail]

Leon: That doesn't look like Texas? Where did you shoot that one?

People should note the comment about his Velocity of @1200 fps. I maintain that there is no need for Super Hi Zoot Butt Kicker Slug Loads for 99% of your slug shooting. Also we've seen some pics of other animals Leon has shot with those slugs (12 ga.) and they do make a powerful impression.

If you are going for Polar Bears then maybe something more powerful.

I know all the Polar Bear Guides in Churchill MA Canada, carry ordinary Police Style Pump Shotguns (870's) loaded with Brenneke Slugs.

Many of the Brenneke loads qualify as "Top of the Line Butt Kickers," and touching one off is probably considered a last resort type of thing. But good to know you'll only have to shoot once.

If all I had in a Polar Bear encounter was a Low Recoil Federal Slug and a gun that was decently accurate I wouldn't feel under gunned. Especially if I had 5 more shots to get it right.

See my newest Polar Bear Gun. see pic

Always Remember,,, Nothing Lives thru a Slug!


Randy

Hey Randy. I’m up in the northern woods of Wisconsin close to the UP. Weather is fanatic!


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[Hogtamer]

BT, that sure is a wooly hog!

[megasupermagnum]

Yeah, you came on a good week. That cool breeze feels phenomenal. Dry summer, so few bugs. On a normal year, we couldn't see your face through the horsefly's and mosquitoes.

[EMC45]

Dog Gone! Well done!

[commando223]

I'm looking to make that same load for my Savage 320 I'm getting ready to order that Russian mold.

Are you using a screw to attach it to the wad?

How much do those slugs weigh?

[Petander]

Congrats!

Beautiful PC and all.

Now you made me want that slug in 20 , got the 12 already.

[Blood Trail]

I'm looking to make that same load for my Savage 320 I'm getting ready to order that Russian mold.

Are you using a screw to attach it to the wad?

How much do those slugs weigh?

Yes, the screw is attached to the wad through the slug.

As for weight, I believe they are right around an oz for total ejection weight.


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[Petander]

Blood Trail,

is this a Svarog mold or AS? Any fillout quirks?

I just got a Svarog 20 and it is a tough one to fill. Been fighting for a week. I have other Svarogs in 12 gauge,they are working normally.

Thanks.

[Blood Trail]

Blood Trail,

is this a Svarog mold or AS? Any fillout quirks?

I just got a Svarog 20 and it is a tough one to fill. Been fighting for a week. I have other Svarogs in 12 gauge,they are working normally.

Thanks.

I run a full pot turned all the way up. I also heat the mold on a hotplate. Takes a couple pours. Out of 50 slugs, I may have two or three to go back in the pot.


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[dverna]

BT,

Very nice!!!

Did you recover the slug or did it pass through?

[Petander]

I run a full pot turned all the way up. I also heat the mold on a hotplate. Takes a couple pours. Out of 50 slugs, I may have two or three to go back in the pot.


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Thank you, I'm doing the same. Gotta live with this I guess.

Don, my guess is a well exploded slug.

[Blood Trail]

BT,

Very nice!!!

Did you recover the slug or did it pass through?


BT,

Very nice!!!

Did you recover the slug or did it pass through?

I did. The petals broke off and the main body of the slug of embedded the the back of the neck.


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[Markopolo]

wow.... how did I miss this????

Nice job Leon... did you take pics of the wound channel?

[Petander]

Wow I'm slow. But now I see, they have two options and this is the wide belted version.

I'm not happy with my Svarog fillout, gotta order AS next time.

Are you using a rifled barrel?

[bcp477]

Congratulations on your success, Blood Trail. It occurs to me that, what you (and all of us creating various slug loads)...are really doing, as regards ballistics, is more or less duplicating black powder cartridge loads from the 1800's. A 300 to 500 grain projectile, launched at around 1200 fps. Roughly speaking, that is about what they got from a 45-70, a 56-50 Spencer, just to name two. There are many others that basically fit those rough parameters.

I find this quite interesting. We've come all this way, only to realize that they were obviously doing something right, back in the day...and we are basically doing the same thing. As I said...interesting.

[Blood Trail]

Wow I'm slow. But now I see, they have two options and this is the wide belted version.

I'm not happy with my Svarog fillout, gotta order AS next time.

Are you using a rifled barrel?

Both, but mainly rifled.


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[W.R.Buchanan]

Congratulations on your success, Blood Trail. It occurs to me that, what you (and all of us creating various slug loads)...are really doing, as regards ballistics, is more or less duplicating black powder cartridge loads from the 1800's. A 300 to 500 grain projectile, launched at around 1200 fps. Roughly speaking, that is about what they got from a 45-70, a 56-50 Spencer, just to name two. There are many others that basically fit those rough parameters.

I find this quite interesting. We've come all this way, only to realize that they were obviously doing something right, back in the day...and we are basically doing the same thing. As I said...interesting.

One major difference, and that is,,, one is .458 in Dia. and the other is .730 in Dia. The latter is much more efficient at dumping it's energy on a meat target.

Everyone needs to learn about Taylor Knock Out factor,,, TKO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_knock-out_factor.

What you will find is that a 11/8 oz 12 ga slug running at 1600 fps has slightly more actual knock down power than a .458 Win Mag. 500 gr bullet at 2150 fps. 70 for the Win Mag versus 82 for the Slug. This is because the Win Mag will probably go all the way thru the animal and end up dumping the remainder of it's energy in the dirt beyond, whereas the slug will dump all it's energy immediately on impact.

The slugs Leon is shooting take this even farther by having massing HP's in the nose which make the slug open up really fast and create a real mess.

A 12 ga shotgun is about the most formidable weapon the common man can own, and inside of 100 yards nothing lives thru a slug hit.

But do learn about TKO as it is the best way to assess Slug performance in comparison to regular Rifle bullets. You be surprised at the amount of power you are wielding.

Randy

[Petander]

I just jumped into Double Rifle World (470 NE) and read that TKO was a created by Taylor mostly for missed brain shots when hunting elephants. Enough TKO and the animal goes down from the power, a sledgehammer effect. Even when you miss the brain.

Back to 20 slugs, I will try cutting these wads for now. Can't get real 20 brush wads, got something else coming from Siarm now though.

https://i.postimg.cc/52wVZmFc/IMG-20211023-WA0001.jpg

[Petander]

Regarding this nearly similar Svarog mold, I have to take some of my words back.

This mold just needed half a dozen casting sessions to break in, now it fills and gives good slugs after 300 castings or so. I did the usual Brakekleen / Fairy cleanup twice, maybe a few heat cyclings would have helped?

Anyway, it is working nice and easy now. Even the pin often drops by itself .

AS molds look just like Svarog, I wonder if they actually are the same? My wide band AS is coming anyway.

https://i.postimg.cc/rFJWjPSd/IMG-20211023-WA0003.jpg

[longbow]

Those are looking nice!

Not sure I've seen your slugs naked before, they are usually bright colours.

On a somewhat different note... I'm curious about accuracy comparison of these slugs using screw on brush wads versus the plug in Azot wads.

Have you compared accuracy of both side by side? Assuming you have both styles of mould.

Longbow

[Petander]

Not SH-SH but Grizzly from AS Company. My first AS mold. Not my last one!

Very nice to cast with, no "whacking" needed at all. I'm happy with this. Fast break in time. Somehow feels more "solid" than my Svarog molds.

Results from my second session. No sticking,no seams. Just a clean mold.

https://i.postimg.cc/0j8tSPFf/IMG-20211210-WA0003.jpg

[longbow]

That's the mould I like! Does it come with the universal pin for screw on wads?

Is that one 20ga. or 12ga.?

Looking at the AS site they show segmented pin and "solid" HP pin but neither appears to create the screw hole.

The Svarghunt site shows what looks like a universal pin for the Grizzly slug mould and they mention using a "shank" for increased accuracy.

I don't know how most people would drill the brush wad or other and get the hole centered. I'd do it in my lathe or make a jig with a center hole and use a drill press. I'm surprised these guys don't sell drilling jigs.

Anyway, I'll be watching for range reports on this one! I like it!

Longbow

[Petander]

That's the mould I like! Does it come with the universal pin for screw on wads?

Is that one 20ga. or 12ga.?


Longbow

This is 20 gauge and came with one HP pin. No hole-through. I didn't notice neither need other options now.

This is the wide belted AS Grizzly version for rifled barrels. I only have a rifled choke 20, my friend has a barrel but doesn't cast. I bought this mostly to cast for him. 420 grains is nice.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Leon: give me a comparison of the SH SH slugs compared to the Twister slugs?

It seems that the SH SH has wider driving bands that would hook up on rifling better than the Twister Slug?

It seems like the Twister would open up faster but the SH SH would open up as well, maybe not as quickly? or would it matter?

You've shot both what do you think?

Randy

Petander: Those Grizzly Slugs look like they were designed specifically for a Rifled Bore. Nice wide driving bands.

[W.R.Buchanan]

That's the mould I like! Does it come with the universal pin for screw on wads?

Longbow

It would be pretty easy to make a Drill Bushing that fit into the HP to drill these thru for the screw on wad option.

I see a 15 minute job there?

Randy

[longbow]

True enough Randy but I'd rather just cast then run the screw through.

It does appear that the AS mould is for rifled barrel only but the Svaroghunt mould shows the "universal" style pin that does go right through so could be used for both... can't say I noticed driving band width though for comparison.

I like the AS-Molds site and the products look good. I would likely go with the Grizzly Shock mould as it comes with HP and segmented pins but I want to find out if I can order more pins to alter like universal pins going right to the bottom of the sprue plate. I'm sure it would be easy to bore a 1/8" hole and press a pin in. Us guys without rifled guns need tailwads!

Hmmm... have to check that too, not sure Svaroghunt has a segmented pin for the Grizzly. If not I'd go AS-molds and drill if I had to.

I guess with a drill bushing it wouldn't be a big deal to drill either.

Anyone have comments about Svaroghunt moulds versus AS-Molds ~ Quality? Price? Service?

Those are good looking slugs Petander! But not colourful like usual!

Longbow

[Petander]

Those are good looking slugs Petander! But not colourful like usual!

Longbow

https://i.postimg.cc/y6PzyJGX/IMG-20211210-WA0015.jpg

[longbow]

There we go... I'm squinting, better get my sunglasses!

[Vettepilot]

Why is there little done in 20 gauge slugs generally?

Vettepilot

[W.R.Buchanan]

Why is there little done in 20 gauge slugs generally?

Vettepilot

Because they aren't 12 ga. ?

Randy

[Vettepilot]

Ha! Yeah, I suppose. I've heard it said, "They're not accurate." I don't buy it that they're inherently inaccurate for some reason.

I love my 20 gauge for dove and quail hunting, but use one of my several 12 gauges for everything else. There's no substitute for "cubic inches" as they say...

Vettepilot

[W.R.Buchanan]

Ha! Yeah, I suppose. I've heard it said, "They're not accurate." I don't buy it that they're inherently inaccurate for some reason.

I love my 20 gauge for dove and quail hunting, but use one of my several 12 gauges for everything else. There's no substitute for "cubic inches" as they say...

Vettepilot

As a "Vettepilot" you should already know this.

Randy

[Vettepilot]

Well, I'm a "pilot" pilot too, and there's no "replacement for displacement" there either!

;~)

Vettepilot

[Cap'n Morgan]

Why is there little done in 20 gauge slugs generally?

Vettepilot


From a ballistic viewpoint 20 gauge would be a better choice.
It's nearly impossible to design a 12 gauge nose-heavy slug without adding an integrated wad or increase the overall length to a point where the slug become too heavy for anything but subsonic speed.

[Vettepilot]

From a ballistic viewpoint 20 gauge would be a better choice.
It's nearly impossible to design a 12 gauge nose-heavy slug without adding an integrated wad or increase the overall length to a point where the slug become too heavy for anything but subsonic speed.

Sounds interesting. How do you go about designing a slug?

Vettepilot

[bcp477]

"There isn't much done" with slugs in the 20 gauge because all of the 12 gauge snobs monopolize the issue with their over-sized bores and uppity attitude. :) So, the greatly superior 20 gauge gets ignored mostly....and is treated like the red-headed stepchild of the 12.

Well, bugger them. I devote my energies, for one, entirely to the glorious 20...and ignore the ridiculous powder-waster 12...using round lead balls. 53 cal. balls make dandy slugs in the 20...effective, accurate and a pleasure to shoot.

So there !

[longbow]

As Cap'n Morgan points out, if you only consider lead bore diameter slugs then for a given weight the 20 ga. slug will have greater sectional density and higher BC at reasonable weight. However, if you consider discarding sabot then the 12 ga. can launch the same slug as the 20 ga. full bore slug and do it with same velocity and lower pressure or same pressure and higher velocity.

Both bore sizes can launch a .45 or .50 cal. slug of same weight and the same applies.

For rifled guns you are only considering slugs so maybe not a huge difference but for smoothbore the 12 ga. is more versatile with regards to buckshot and two ball or Tri-Ball.

Nothing wrong with 20 ga. but I'll stick with my 12 ga.'s.

Longbow

[longbow]

Hahaha! bcp477 post while I was pecking away.

I don't consider myself a 12 ga. snob but...?

I like beer! Does that help?

Different strokes for sure!

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

One of the reasons why I am a 12 Gauge Slugger is because of the Relative Knockdown Power. TKO of the 12 ga over 20. Also I sold my 20 O/U like 40 years ago and don't want to have to buy reloading equipment for another Round. I do 12 ga and .410's only

I have talked about Taylor Knockout Factor TKO) here several times. Despite assertions to the contrary it is the most effective measurement of how large caliber projectiles perform. It tends to favor larger caliber boolits more due to the larger frontal area of the boolit. Larger frontal area equals faster energy transfer which promotes more efficient stopping power.

The formula for this is Bullet Diameter x Weight in gr. x Velocity / 7000. This will yield a 2-3 digit number which can be compared to others.

For Example: A 12 ga. 1 oz slug at 1300 fps or .730 x 437 x 1300 / 7000 = TKO 59 (Federal Low Recoil Slug?

A .458 Win Mag .458 x 500 x 2150 / 7000 = TKO 70

A 12 ga 1 oz at 1600 fps .73 x 437 x 1600 /7000 = TKO 73 (Federal Maximum Slug)

A 12ga 1 1/4 oz at 1600 fps .73 x 550 x 1600 / 7000 = TKO 92 !

A 12 ga. 1.5 oz at 1600fps .73 x 655 x 1600 / 7000 = TKO 110 !!!! (Brenneke Magnum Crush)

.600 NE .62 x 900 x 1950 / 7000 = TKO 150 !!!!!!!!!

20 ga slug .62 x 350 x 1600 / 7000 = TKO 49 But still comparable to the .45-70 due to the larger frontal area.

A.45-70 405 gr. .458 x 405 x 1900 / 7000 = TKO 50

.30-06 180 gr 2400 fps =TKO 18.5 !

So you can see how a 12 or even a 20 ga Shotgun stacks up against several popular "Rifle Calibers." But Shotguns can still be compared favorably to even the biggest rifle rounds and I doubt anyone can shoot a 600 NE more than once. Saw Jim Shockey do it once on TV and I think he'd had enough ! I also doubt anyone will be pulling the trigger on that 12 ga Brenneke round more than once. The guns that fired the .600 NE weighed 14-16 lbs. I haven't seen any 12 ga shotguns over about 9 lbs. Hence my reluctance to push them for anything other than comparisons or last ditch against a dinosaur
.
I have seen many Guides on TV using 12 ga shotguns for back up when Hunting Brown Bears and for Covering Polar Bear Sight Seers in Churchill Canada.

Unfortunately the choices in 20 ga Slugs isn't as deep as with 12 ga slugs but there are still some out there.

By using the formula shown above you can see what the relative power of your home made concoctions will be before you ever shoot them, which could build needed confidence, or just satisfy curiosity. Point being it is useful information. The guy who came up with this formula shot everything that walked with everything that shot anything. He had some idea what he was talking about.

We are very lucky to have affordable Shotguns that we can experiment with rather than dreaming about guns we could never afford. And we can compete favorably with them as well.

I still maintain that nothing lives thru a slug!

Randy

[longbow]

For those that favour the 20 ga., as Randy points out, slug selection isn't generally as good as for 12 ga. especially factory loaded slugs but in case you weren't aware AS-Molds has a good selection of slug moulds from .410 to 10 ga. and Svaroghunt has a good selection of moulds from .410 to 12 ga. Both have good 20 and 12 ga. mould selection.

https://as-molds.com/
https://en.svaroghunt.ru/puleleyki

Longbow

[Cap'n Morgan]

Sounds interesting. How do you go about designing a slug?

Vettepilot

I design the slug in a CAD program (SolidWorks) using a parametric sketch - this helps tremendously as you can keep twisting various elements in the design and immediately see the results. With material (lead/brass or whatever) applied, the program will report both the weight and Center of Mass - which should be well towards the front of the slug to prevent the slug from start tumbling.

A full bore, 1-1/4 ounce, solid, 12 gauge cylindrical slug would be only .472 high - way less than its diameter. Where as a 20 gauge of the same weight would be .668 high - about the same as its diameter and much easier to turn into a decent weight-forward design by adding a hollow base.

[Vettepilot]

I design the slug in a CAD program (SolidWorks) using a parametric sketch - this helps tremendously as you can keep twisting various elements in the design and immediately see the results. With material (lead/brass or whatever) applied, the program will report both the weight and Center of Mass - which should be well towards the front of the slug to prevent the slug from start tumbling.

A full bore, 1-1/4 ounce, solid, 12 gauge cylindrical slug would be only .472 high - way less than its diameter. Where as a 20 gauge of the same weight would be .668 high - about the same as its diameter and much easier to turn into a decent weight-forward design by adding a hollow base.

Well, no. I'm all good on that part, the physical design and creation of the slug itself.

I was referring to the determination/study of slug external ballistics. How do you model how a design might fly; what it's aerodynamic and stability characteristics might be?? That's what's most often missing, and/or done by laborious "cut and try".

Rifle boolits most often stay supersonic, (hopefully), to the target. One of the tough things about slugs is they often operate through the transition, or transonic, realm. Often aerodynamics that are not intuitive to predict. And there's usually one hell of a "plow wave", or supersonic shock wave coming off the nose of most slugs in the first part of flight! Then there is spin versus non-spin, etc., etc. A quite complicated, but very interesting subject.

Any good reference books on just that subject guys? I've got a very disturbed enquiring mind that's a glutton for punishment!!

Vettepilot

[Petander]

For those that favour the 20 ga., as Randy points out, slug selection isn't generally as good as for 12 ga. especially factory loaded slugs but in case you weren't aware AS-Molds has a good selection of slug moulds from .410 to 10 ga. and Svaroghunt has a good selection of moulds from .410 to 12 ga. Both have good 20 and 12 ga. mould selection.

https://as-molds.com/
https://en.svaroghunt.ru/puleleyki

Longbow

AS makes a 704 grain Foster slug mold... that one could be subsonic from the start and still deliver.

I do like 20 a lot, even more with tungsten shot but slugs are fun. Heck I like them all.